Wooden Ladder Shop

[Jim Koepke]

The San Francisco Fire Department may be the only fire department in the country with their own ladder shop to build and repair their wooden ladders. A combination of narrow streets with low hanging electrical wires and high winds off of the bay and ocean make the wooden ladders a better choice over aluminum ladders.

https://vimeo.com/13190227

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Jim, very good video.

[Pat Barry]

I'd like to see the video of the guys putting up and extending that 50 ft, 350 lb ladder. They must have a few pretty strong dudes to get it up.

[Mike Null]

Very interesting.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Vey cool, good find. Thanks for posting.

[Joe Bailey]

cool stuff, thanks Jim

[Phil Thien]

Have they not heard of fiberglass?

[Mel Fulks]

I could do with out hearing how the wood has to be stored for years and such, but I enjoy all those regional traditions. The ribbed construction is interesting. I have a twenty foot redwood ladder with hand turned round fir rungs that I made; was simply the cheapest thing for clogged gutter ,etc at the tallest corner of the house.

[Doug McKay]

I'd like to see the video of the guys putting up and extending that 50 ft, 350 lb ladder. They must have a few pretty strong dudes to get it up.

Werner's 40' fiberglass ladder weighs in at 375lbs.... Model D7140-2 40 ft type 1aa. They don't list a 50'. At the end of the video you see them set it up, they use auxiliary poles that attach to stabilize it.

[Phil Thien]

Werner's 40' fiberglass ladder weighs in at 375lbs.... Model D7140-2 40 ft type 1aa. They don't list a 50'. At the end of the video you see them set it up, they use auxiliary poles that attach to stabilize it.

That is a good point, I hadn't thought about the limits is making fiberglass units. I can't find any over 40', which means they're probably pretty wobbly even at that length.

[paul cottingham]

Yeah, wood is lighter than fibreglass, and lasts way longer than aluminum. If they have a ladder shop, I'm not sure how that's being "a state that likes to spend the people's money."

In fact, making and servicing ladders seems to be a great way to steward the people's money. Wood ladders stand up to heat better, as well.

I seem to recall that fibreglass doesn't stand heat all that well, either, and is much harder to repair.

[Jim Koepke]

In fact, making and servicing ladders seems to be a great way to steward the people's money.

One of their ladders has been in use since 1918. That in itself seems to indicate longevity. It would be interesting to know how many different fire trucks it has been carried on as part of the equipment.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

Yeah, wood is lighter than fibreglass, and lasts way longer than aluminum. If they have a ladder shop, I'm not sure how that's being "a state that likes to spend the people's money."

In fact, making and servicing ladders seems to be a great way to steward the people's money. Wood ladders stand up to heat better, as well.

I seem to recall that fibreglass doesn't stand heat all that well, either, and is much harder to repair.

It is impossible to come to any conclusions without a lot more data.

And some of their reasons for using wooden ladders are questionable:

Extra weight helps in windy conditions? San Francisco isn't even one of the windiest cities and none of the 10 windiest cities even use wooden ladders. Twelve of the thirteen cities that DO use wooden ladders are in CA, and none of them are in the top ten for windy cities.

Heat? Well, other fire departments have found the aluminum and fiberglass ladders perform fine, because they aren't typically placed directly in the fire. I imagine they even teach this in the academy ("Don't put the ladder IN the fire").

Non-conductive? Fiberglass works.

Longer lengths? Seems custom wood ladders are a plus here. But their arguments about the extra weight, and the heat resistance, make me question whether this one is legit or not, too.

[Mel Fulks]

I dare say the chief benefits are the publicity value and esprit de corp in fire dept. Unusual features are good for tourism,too.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Ladders. Made of wood. We are arguing about ladders made of wood. Step back a minute and look at this from afar.

[paul cottingham]

Seriously, give me a rung made of rived wood anytime over metal or fibreglass. I would trust it more.

[Mel Fulks]

We are arguing about ladders made of wood. Step back a minute and look at this from afar.[/QUOTE]
Unless you are on a ladder of ANY type.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

We are arguing about ladders made of wood. Step back a minute and look at this from afar.
Unless you are on a ladder of ANY type.[/QUOTE]

Now that's funny!!!

I will say, I was surprised at the 15 year acclimation allowance for the fir. Am I wrong, or is that a bit longer than necessary? Not being sarcastic- that's an actual question. I sure would love to have some.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, I thought that 15 year acclimation deal was a bit of unneeded embellishment. It is possible to get fine quality kiln dried 12/4 fir. Even in this east coast town we have a good supplier; they actually buy it green and get it kiln dried somewhere else. Some of us are having trouble with our quote boxing system when posting,is it broken? Process changed?

[Phil Thien]

Yeah, I thought that 15 year acclimation deal was a bit of unneeded embellishment. It is possible to get fine quality kiln dried 12/4 fir. Even in this east coast town we have a good supplier; they actually buy it green and get it kiln dried somewhere else. Some of us are having trouble with our quote boxing system when posting,is it broken? Process changed?

It works fine but if the tags get screwed-up during composing/editing of a post, subsequent quotes will continue the problem.

You biffed it in post #18.

We forgive you.

[Mel Fulks]

Phil, thanks for explanation and demo.

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

Thanks for posting this. The truss type construction of the ladders is quite interesting, as was pointed out above. I would love to know more about it.

Phil, I think it is in the "Glen L" marine book on wooden boat building, that the statement is made that plywood has a much higher strength to weight ratio than does fiberglass. I believe the author is a marine engineer. I do know that in that or a similar book that the statement was definitely made. Plywood and DF are not the same thing, but I would bet the DF is more ridged than is the fiberglass. It may also have a stronger strength to weight ratio as well. Just a thought.

I have used aluminum, fiberglass, and wooden ladders, but it has been a long time since I used a wooden ladder. If my memory serves me well, I believe that the wooden ladder is the stiffest and least prone to flexing and twisting of the three types I have used.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

To me a fire department using wooden ladders seemed it might be of interest. Not sure if they want kiln dried wood for this use. There are some writings saying kiln dried wood is different than air dried wood.

San Francisco not only has wind to think about. Sometimes the winds can be pretty bad. Ask any old SF Giants fan about watching balls that should have been home runs being blown back to the field for a rather strange out having the defensive fielder catching a long fly ball with their back to the plate.

Aluminum is out in San Francisco due to low hanging high voltage trolly wires all over town.

Maybe it is just a tradition that has held its ground. Maybe in the long run having a ladder repair facility is less costly than always buying replacement ladders.

Many years ago the California Highway patrol thought they would save money by switching from Harley Davidson motorcycles to a less expensive motorcycle from Japan. The savings proved to not be real. They cost more to maintain and the resell value was way below what a used CHP Harley could bring. They switched back until the Japanese motorcycles caught up in quality, reliability and value after they had been used for a few years.

It is easy to say something is a waste of money while sitting at a keyboard without having all the factors involved.

Maybe they are spending a bit more than necessary. But it does keep a few people employed and makes for another unique feature in a unique city.

jtk

[george wilson]

We had a maintenance man hurt pretty badly when his fiberglass ladder shattered. I do not trust OLDER fiberglass. Old epoxy gets progressively more brittle. It may not stand years of age as well as wood. Certainly wood will stand up to HEAT from NEARBY fires better than fiberglass. Aluminum-out due to power lines,as mentioned. And,aluminum can get annealed and fold up if gotten too hot from a nearby fire.

Do you all know that a building with wooden trusses in the roof will stand against collapsing longer than a steel trussed roof?

Don't you guys thing that the long experienced SF fire dept. has thought of all these things? I'm sure they have arrived at the wood for sound reasons,even if they are in California!:)

[Phil Thien]

Don't you guys thing that the long experienced SF fire dept. has thought of all these things? I'm sure they have arrived at the wood for sound reasons,even if they are in California!:)

San Francisco is hardly the only city dealing with hilly terrain and low-hanging high-voltage, and there are certainly far windier cities. And yet other fire departments around the country (there are over 30,000 of them, BTW) use aluminum or fiberglass.

So just to put the #'s in perspective, thirteen fire departments use wood. Twelve of them are in California. There are an estimated 30,052 fire departments in the U.S. That means .0004% use wood. That is four ten-thousandths.

I've been to San Francisco. It is pretty unique, it ain't THAT unique.

[paul cottingham]

I agree with George. Because you are dealing with a persons life, and the lives of people they are rescuing, I'm sure the SFFD has damn good reasons for continuing to use these ladders. And despite all our arguments and screeds, I suspect that they will continue to do so.
And good for them. They are keeping a form of craftsmanship and tradition alive, and I strongly suspect they are saving money while they are at it. I seriously doubt they are using wooden ladders for the sole purpose of wasting tax payers money!

[Jim Koepke]

While looking around the internet on this a Popular Mechanics headline says it all:


These ultra-durable tools are saving lives

Another article at:

http://gizmodo.com/inside-san-francisos-fire-department-where-ladders-are-1552279252

Said some fire departments would like to switch back to wood but the expense would be too high due to their only being two makers of wooden ladders in the U.S. and one of them is the San Francisco fire department's shop.


Why Wood?

Wood is resilient in ways which aluminum—now standard for fire department ladders—can't even compare. "You know if you take an empty coke can and bend it three or four times and it tears really easy? That's what aluminum ladders will do," Braun says. "They have a seven to eight year lifespan, after which they need to be replaced."

Wooden ladders, on the other hand, can last indefinitely. "You can stress wood right up to its failure point a million times; as long as you don't go beyond that, it will come right back to where it was. They can be involved in a fire for a pretty long time; after that, it's just a matter of sanding off the top coat of material then inspecting the wood. If it's good we'll re-oil it, revarnish it, and put it back in service."



jtk

[Larry Edgerton]

I would much rather work on a wood ladder all day than anything else. Much easier on the knees as you foot can rotate and just feels better. I have to supply ladders with the appropriate safety stickers for employees but if I am working alone I use wood. I gave up on the wood extension ladders as I got older, but just because they are too heavy for me these days. Much more stable to work on than fiberglass or aluminum.

[Phil Thien]

While looking around the internet on this a Popular Mechanics headline says it all:

Another article at:

http://gizmodo.com/inside-san-francisos-fire-department-where-ladders-are-1552279252

Said some fire departments would like to switch back to wood but the expense would be too high due to their only being two makers of wooden ladders in the U.S. and one of them is the San Francisco fire department's shop.

The guy that said some fire departments would like to go back to wood but can't was from the San Francisco Fire Dept. Ladder Shop. Hardly an impartial source.

And BTW, the comment in the article about aluminum ladders needing to be replaced after seven years is pretty funny. I know roofing contractors that use their ladders every single day, for years on end. Their ladders see far more use than any fire department ladder would ever see. And they last just fine.

[Jim Koepke]

Even though some have expressed their enjoyment in learning about the San Francisco Fire Department's ladder shop, there comes a point where one might feel regrets over trying to share such a concept with others.

There is always someone trying to tear down an otherwise wonderful endeavor of craftsmanship.

Maybe I should give up trying to make quality products by hand and tell people to head off to Walmart or Ikea. After all, it might keep them from "wasting money" on frivolous potting benches, hand made spoons and honey dippers.

jtk

[george wilson]

Amazing how some people know better than the SF fire department which has many years of actual experience in these matters. I am sure that those who risk their lives on these ladders trust them.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

We had a maintenance man hurt pretty badly when his fiberglass ladder shattered. I do not trust OLDER fiberglass. Old epoxy gets progressively more brittle. It may not stand years of age as well as wood. Certainly wood will stand up to HEAT from NEARBY fires better than fiberglass. Aluminum-out due to power lines,as mentioned. And,aluminum can get annealed and fold up if gotten too hot from a nearby fire.

Do you all know that a building with wooden trusses in the roof will stand against collapsing longer than a steel trussed roof?

Don't you guys thing that the long experienced SF fire dept. has thought of all these things? I'm sure they have arrived at the wood for sound reasons,even if they are in California!:)

Fiberglass also delaminates in heat, which I think might be a bad thing for a fire department. :-) They also break down in UV. I have a fiberglass ladder because my house has a power line right beside it. It is so much heavier than the aluminum one. I actually almost built a wood ladder because I think I could make it lighter than this monster.

As for wood truss roofs, my roof from 1836 withstood hurricane Marilyn, which destroyed most of the roofs on this island, old and new- wood, steel, and concrete.

Anyway, I did love the video. I am grateful for the OP sharing it. I salvaged two huge sailboat masts that were douglas fir, and that's the first time I ever got to work with good douglass fir. It is very light and strong, although a bit brittle for bending. I did manage to build a kayak hull out of it and that hull had a very curved stern. I wish I had more access to it. I don't want to wish bad on anyone, but I'm hoping another boat with wood sticks washes up!

[Phil Thien]

Amazing how some people know better than the SF fire department which has many years of actual experience in these matters. I am sure that those who risk their lives on these ladders trust them.

Are you referring to me, or the 30,039 fire departments that choose to use fiberglass or aluminum?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I gotta go with Phil.

"THis is how we've always done it". 2 guys in a shop somewhere, working on wooden ladders, on the govco payroll. I am sure they are great guys, but as a wood products mfg process improvement guy, just watching that video, I could see ways to easily cut the man-hours by 75% or more [without even stepping foot in the shop].........but there is no incentive to improve. Until those 2 guys retire, and they outsource it.

[paul cottingham]

Well, I would wager I'm one of the biggest guys here, probably comparable to a firefight loaded up with gear. And all I can say is that I feel safer and much more comfortable on a wooden ladder than an aluminum one. In fact I won't even own an aluminum one. I like fibreglass as well, but nowhere near as much as wood, and the wooden one is lighter.

Regardless of the politicization of this thread, I loved the little film, and respect the hell out of old school craftsmen, even ones that practice such an arcane art.

[george wilson]

The other fire departments likely just do not have the craftsmen or the tradition of using wooden ladders. I say tradition in the sense that it takes the establishment of the resources, saving up the materials,the equipment and the experienced workmen to get a shop together and keep it going.

Understand that I have no stake in San Francisco,and would not care to live there for a few different reasons.

We all seem to realize that good tools cost more money. A ladder is a tool.

Aluminum does lose its strength quickly when it gets hot. I know this also being a machinist. To anneal aluminum,all you have to do is burn off the soot,or in sheet metal work,pile on some sawdust and heat it till the sawdust smokes. That is how a 1930's race car body builder did it in a video he made while in his 90's,to show how he made the radiator surrounds on Miller race cars. Fiberglass does get old and can fail suddenly,as was the case with our maintenance man getting dumped on a concrete floor when his ladder shattered. I just do not trust fiberglass several years old. I have had it fail myself. In a Corvette,all you have to do is hit a dog to have cracks start if your car is only a few years old. That fact is well known.

Wood does have certain virtues,like standing heat better. Roofs held up by wooden beams also stand up longer in a fire than steel beam roofs in larger buildings. I refer to old warehouses,churches,etc. that have heavy wood beam construction. People's lives have been saved because they had extra time to get out of burning wooden structured buildings(roof wise).So,why the outcry against wood ladders? If a $6500.00 ladder saves a life or 2,it is worth it. Plus,as mentioned,those wooden ladders last a very long time. So,their cost is less over the span of decades.

I can tell you from actual experience,there are VERY FEW ladder makers left in this country,thanks to liability. Years ago I was asked to find a way to make lightweight ramps to help wheelchair bound people get into the Historic buildings in the Museum. They are not handicap friendly. I tried locating ladder makers who might could help make ramps that a female ticket puncher or 2 could maneuver into place. I think Werner was the only one I could find. I don't think anyone makes wooden ladders any more. It is just easier to manufacture aluminum or fiberglass ones than wooden ones. So WHERE are the other fire departments going to get theirs made,unless they establish and run their own shop?

[Jim Koepke]

Are you referring to me, or the 30,039 fire departments that choose to use fiberglass or aluminum?

It isn't the other 30,039 fire departments casting aspersions at the San Francisco fire departments about their use of wooden ladders is it?

It doesn't even seem to matter to you that the wooden ladders have features superior to other ladders.

It doesn't even matter to you that this post originated as something that might be of general interest to woodworking folks. No, it had to become a commentary on the fiscal policies of a state in which you do not live. All but the last few years of my life were lived in California.

Yes, one or two aluminum or fiberglass ladders will cost less than a wooden ladder. How many of those can claim to have been in service for almost a century?

As someone else mentioned, aluminum and fiberglass extension ladders are not available in 50 foot lengths.

jtk

[george wilson]

I made a wooden step ladder for the Wig Shop!:) But,I made it of beech. 18th. C. style,of course.

[Mike Null]

I'm only speaking for one moderator here but i agree with you about the political posts in this thread. I didn't judge them to be sufficient to merit deletion but I disagree with them and tend to agree that they are out of place in this thread.

[Phil Thien]

Again, there is nothing showing construction of ladders beyond some hammering and sanding.

For those that keep touting the superiority of the wooden ladders, I urge you to visit some firefighter forums where you can find a 20-year veteran of an SFFD engine company that says he can't remember a single time they got a 65-foot ladder off the truck during a response, it is just too heavy to be practical. Oh, and wooden ladder rungs get extremely slippery when wet (duh). Oh, and even though the video indicated there has never been a single accident involving a wooden ladder, the truth is there have been serious injuries and multiple deaths from guys falling off the things.

Nonetheless, those that wish to romanticize their production and use may carry on.

[george wilson]

The wood rungs are varnished. The user touches no actual wood while using the ladder. You know nothing about the composition of the varnish being used (nor do I). Some are NOT slippery when wet. So,your supposition is not relevant.

[Jason Roehl]

My feet hurt just looking at those round rungs. I wear boots as a painter just for the extra support of the thick rubber soles while I'm standing on a ladder.

I can see some of their points as to the suitability of wood over other materials. As for the rest of us, aluminum is a very good choice. My tallest ladder is a Type 1A 28' aluminum that I got a heckuva deal on about 18 years ago--$175. It's still going strong, and I can easily maneuver it solo because it weighs about 60 lbs. The only flaw in it other than a few minor nicks here and there is that the very top of one rail is ever so slightly bent inward (less than 1/2"). Most of the time I have a ladder stabilizer on it anyway. I've even used that ladder in the rain and while pressure washing, and while it is a little more slippery, the sharp ribs on the D-rungs provide good traction. Plus, the aforementioned boots with the prominent heel help prevent slipping over a flat-soled shoe.

As for a heavy ladder helping with stability, it does. I was working on the above ladder on that windy, fall day a few years ago when 2 hours north of me a Notre Dame student died when the scissor lift he was in blew over. My partner weighs about 260 lbs, and the wind wasn't bothering him nearly as much because his ladder had 90 more pounds on the same four points of contact.

[Mel Fulks]

I'm surprised this topic has inspired so much passion. Seems anything deemed unsafe or not fit for purpose would have been pushed out by Osha. Things can be "better" in ways that only effect the the state of mind of the people who use them. Modern computer navigation is "better " than sextants and such IF it is used. But when it is deemed too mundane and boring it doesn't get used and those in charge simply eyeball it ,bad things happen, by some reports the Costa Concordia catastrophe was one of those cases. The ritual like old fashioned navigation acknowledged the authority of the captain and gave him help ....and provided the state with witnesses. The ladder video is short ,but I believe the firemen are justly proud of them. Would not be surprised if some of the ladders have brass plates with names of deceased fireman paid for by their families. I bet some firemen leave money to that ladder shop.

[Jim Koepke]

So what I'm saying is, the video was political, and I responded in-kind.

?????

I guess some people can interpret any endeavor of which they disapprove as being a political action. It seems most of us must have been hoodwinked into seeing what we thought an interesting piece of San Francisco tradition where you have shown us we should have seen a socialist plot in fruition.

So Phil, are you going to share the financial analysis you have done to prove your point of it being cheaper for San Francisco to close their ladder shop and replacing all their ladders with the ones you think they should be using?

jtk

[Phil Thien]

?????

I guess some people can interpret any endeavor of which they disapprove as being a political action. It seems most of us must have been hoodwinked into seeing what we thought an interesting piece of San Francisco tradition where you have shown us we should have seen a socialist plot in fruition.

So Phil, are you going to share the financial analysis you have done to prove your point of it being cheaper for San Francisco to close their ladder shop and replacing all their ladders with the ones you think they should be using?

jtk

None of their published budgets have the data. They might not keep track of it.

[Phil Thien]

The wood rungs are varnished. The user touches no actual wood while using the ladder. You know nothing about the composition of the varnish being used (nor do I). Some are NOT slippery when wet. So,your supposition is not relevant.

One firehouse forum has a member that works in a house with wooden ladders. They are now using Watco Danish Oil to protect them.

That may just be in the houses, though, they may receive some other treatment at the ladder shop.

So after a fire they're inspected at the house and receive some maintenance that may not be ideal, but is intended to protect the ladder.

BTW, not my supposition, if you read those forums you will find guys saying the rungs can get very slippery when wet, and the aluminum ladder rungs offer a much better grip.

[Phil Thien]

Here is an interesting read, BTW, quoting the president of the largest fire ladder manufacturer in the country (right here in Oshkosh, WI). The guy is an unqualified expert and talks about all these things.

http://www.duosafety.com/magazine.html

It is pretty interesting.

I had pasted it here but it formatted poorly, go read it at the site I link above.

But here is a tidbit:



"The reason we dumped wood ladders in 1988 was due to the spotted owl crisis," Schwab says. "Lumber went up by a factor of seven that year and when you start calculating the prices you quickly figure out that the cost of a 24-footer would have been $3,000. Nobody is going to pay $3,000 for a 24-foot two-section ladder when an aluminum one passes all the requirements, meets all the codes, is basically considered the workhorse of the industry, and it's worth $600."

Of the 27 employees Schwab has employed in the shop area, the same former barrel factory where his father started the business 70 years ago, all but one are busy building aluminum ladders, he says, noting that the one remaining constructs fiberglass ladders.

"We started using fiberglass in 1973, but fiberglass isn't that popular. Why? Because it is heavy," he says. "It's like any other engineered product. You figure out what it has to do, what the load capacity is and the materials you're using and pretty soon you'll be saying 'It weighs how much? Yeiowee.'"

The only reason fiberglass ladders exist is to avoid electrical hazard, he explains, adding there really isn't anything that is 100 percent safe and non-conductive.

"Anyone who thinks there is such a thing as a non-conductive ladder is naive," says Schwab who has served on the National Fire Prevention Administration (NFPA) ladder subcommittee for 25 years. "If you lay a portable ladder into the power lines, just like if you put an aerial device into the power lines, there is so much voltage, you're dead, I'm sorry." The best way to avoid electrocution is to simply stay away from the power lines, he says.

"Just get out of there and don't do it," Schwab says, noting that proper ladder training will save more lives than a non-conductive ladder.

[Jim Koepke]

None of their published budgets have the data. They might not keep track of it.

I am sure they keep track of it. I found information on line listing the SFFD cost for "support services" which covers the ladder shop.


SUPPORT SERVICES manages the SFFD's facilities, equipment and vehicle fleet, and is responsible for all maintenance, repairs and capital improvements. Support Services also oversees the Department's Ladder Manufacturing Shop and the Brass Shop, where nozzles, fittings and High Pressure Reducing Valves are created.

Sounds like what you are saying is you do not have the information needed to verify your claims.

I am also curious as to your qualifications for determining the needs of a fire department half a continent away from where you happen to be.

This won't happen to a member of the SFFD:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/Two_firefighters_injured_when_ladder_touches_power _line.html

I spent a few minutes watching the video again. It isn't produced by the San Francisco fire department. I also fail to pick up on the "underlying political propaganda" you seem to find in this short piece on the last wooden fire ladder shop in America.

It is similar to the argument of buying a century old hand plane and fixing it up as compared to buying a new 'premium' plane from LN or LV. They all have their merits. Buying a new plane may seem a waste of money to some. It is doubtful you could convince many of the new owners of such a notion.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

This won't happen to a member of the SFFD:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/Two_firefighters_injured_when_ladder_touches_power _line.html


"Anyone who thinks there is such a thing as a non-conductive ladder is naive," says Schwab who has served on the National Fire Prevention Administration (NFPA) ladder subcommittee for 25 years. "If you lay a portable ladder into the power lines, just like if you put an aerial device into the power lines, there is so much voltage, you're dead, I'm sorry." The best way to avoid electrocution is to simply stay away from the power lines, he says.


I spent a few minutes watching the video again. It isn't produced by the San Francisco fire department. I also fail to pick up on the "underlying political propaganda" you seem to find in this short piece on the last wooden fire ladder shop in America.

What can I say, some people can't read between the lines...



It is similar to the argument of buying a century old hand plane and fixing it up as compared to buying a new 'premium' plane from LN or LV. They all have their merits. Buying a new plane may seem a waste of money to some. It is doubtful you could convince many of the new owners of such a notion.

jtk

Reframe that into a debate on government employees buying economical (but serviceable) iron planes vs. making wood-body planes at several times the cost, and you have a good analogy.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I watched the video and enjoyed it, I then commented. Since then I haven't paid attention but saw the post count getting high. I Should have "X'ed" it out but I had to know........

Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

[Garrett Ellis]

Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

seriously! now i feel betrayed. all of the wonderful content and help that jim has posted over the years, just a front for his commie ways. i now must go back and read in between the lines of all of his posts to see what kind of man he really is.

[Jim Koepke]

What can I say, some people can't read between the lines...

I see, the part where people make up nonsense based on their own paranoia and then accuse others of promoting such a fabricated position.


Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

I am sorry Jebediah. Likewise I too fell down this rabbet (typo, but it made me chuckle) hole by simply clicking a link.

Actually the extrapolation of this is San Francisco, California therefore it must be some liberal plot to exploit the people and waste their money nonsense has sent me on a most enjoyable journey digging deeper into the subject.

Before this my knowledge did not include how many fire stations/engine companies there are in San Francisco or the number of ladders they have.

Though my knowledge of the power lines for the Municipal Railway Company of San Francisco carrying 600 volts DC goes back to my days of working for another transit company in the area.

My knowledge of wood being able to conduct electricity under certain conditions goes back to before reaching my teens. The knowledge of aluminum being a better conductor than wood under any normally encountered condition is pretty much common knowledge to all but a reality resistant few.

jtk

[george wilson]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

I am sure the fire dept. would have enough sense to wrap the wooden rungs in abrasive strip material to increase the grip if they thought it necessary.

I agree the round rungs would kill my feet,but those guys are a lot younger than I am,and in better shape!!:)

[Jim Koepke]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

George,

San Francisco is chris crossed with 600 VDC lines for their transit system. The wires run through almost every neighborhood. When the great public transit dismantling started after WW II, the people in San Francisco didn't fall for the "quieter gasoline powered busses" that were trying to get the electric systems replaced.

My memory is a bit vague on this, my recollection is anything above 480 volts is considered high voltage. It may be even 480 V is considered high voltage in the procedures required by those who work with it.

Being involved in the transit industry, it was interesting to research the systems of the early era of public transit in the area.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

I am sure the fire dept. would have enough sense to wrap the wooden rungs in abrasive strip material to increase the grip if they thought it necessary.

I agree the round rungs would kill my feet,but those guys are a lot younger than I am,and in better shape!!:)

The "cross country power lines" aren't the only ones carrying extremely high voltages. Even the lines in my backyard, carried on typical "telephone poles," are carrying 12,000-volts.

SF Muni devices use 600-volt overhead wires, BUT, power is distributed to those lines at much higher voltages and is transformed to 600.

Wood isn't an insulator, it is a poor conductor. But as voltage increases, or the wood gets wet...

I think the interview/article I linked above hits the important point: Training is more important than wood.

[Phil Thien]

I'm going to stop responding, you guys can have at it.

I'm just going to finish with a couple of points: The ladders are undeniably beautiful. I see their utility and serviceability, as well.

And I'll concede some benefit to wood, even if it isn't as great a benefit as most people may think.

While I do feel this is a waste, it certainly isn't of the magnitude that would cause me to lose sleep. If my local fire department were to decide to switch to wood, you might get some eye rolls from me, that is about it. At all times, where firefighters and policemen are concerned, we should go as far as we can to protect the lives that serve us. I don't mind spending more, I just want a good return, I want it to mean something.

If someone starts a thread depicting mail being delivered by mounted carrier through some city of significant population, I reserve the right to object.

[Jason Roehl]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

[Jim Koepke]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

If the ladder is nonconductive there wouldn't be an arc no matter how close it came to a power line.

jtk

[Jason Roehl]

If the ladder is nonconductive there wouldn't be an arc no matter how close it came to a power line.

jtk

Kind of a moot point when you're dealing with firefighters spraying water everywhere. A wet ladder will provide a path to ground no matter what its material of construction.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

I have always been told ten feet. I did not see it personally, but my father-in-law (roofer) has seen people shocked by a line arcing to a ladder in close proximity to but not touching the line. Even an insulated line can arc through a weak spot in the insulation that you may not see.

[Jim Matthews]

If I understood correctly (by inference) - the tangle of overhead electrical wiring
for the trolley system runs at very high currents, and wet fiberglass ladders
have a breakdown voltage that allows current to pass when in contact with this wiring.

I can't verify this, through SFMTA.

The wiring isn't buried, due to seismic activity.

I'm only guessing, but this appears to be the primary reason for choosing wood
over alternatives such as fiberglass or aluminum.

315945

[Tom Stenzel]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

The electrical apparatus manufacturers consider anything less than 1000 volts to be low voltage.

I don't remember the distance but I do remember that 4160 volts will reach out and get you. I made sure I stayed in the instrumentation cubicles when I had to work on the 4160 and 13.2 kV MCCs, kept the distance at as many feet as possible. And that was indoors.

I had enough electrical safety training to know that I didn't know what I was doing around medium voltage switchgear!

-Tom

[Jim Matthews]

Amazing how some people know better than the SF fire department which has many years of actual experience in these matters. I am sure that those who risk their lives on these ladders trust them.

The undercurrent of suspicion expressed is laughable.
The presumption that professionals don't know what they're doing, isn't.

It's not an affectation, if they're climbing into burning buildings on them.

[Jim Matthews]

The thing is, we can each spend our dollars once, after that they belong to someone else to spend. That includes Gov't. Spending valuable government resources on 65' wooden ladders at a cost of $100 a foot (that is a $6500 ladder) means other needs go unmet.


2015-1918 = 95 years

$6500/95= $68/year

Oh, the waste.
Horrors.

[Phil Thien]

2015-1918 = 95 years

$6500/95= $68/year

Oh, the waste.
Horrors.

$750 billion to $1 trillion (CA debt alone) / 38,000,000 (the population of CA) = $20k to $26k of debt for every single man, woman, and child living in CA.

Of course, many residents (children, many of the elderly, etc.) can't/don't contribute anything towards those obligations, with analysis conducted at the University of CA indicating that the obligation is in excess of $100k for each person that actually does pay taxes in any significant way.

Laugh it up.

[Jim Koepke]

$750 billion to $1 trillion (CA debt alone) / 38,000,000 (the population of CA) = $20k to $26k of debt for every single man, woman, and child living in CA.

Of course, many residents (children, many of the elderly, etc.) can't/don't contribute anything towards those obligations, with analysis conducted at the University of CA indicating that the obligation is in excess of $100k for each person that actually does pay taxes in any significant way.

Laugh it up.

And this is all because the San Francisco Fire Department is using wooden ladders in some Socialist plot to destroy America?

Of course it couldn't have anything to do with the state treasury having its revenue reduced drastically by those who made sure the super wealthy didn't have to pay as much of a percentage of their income in taxes as the rest of us do.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

And this is all because the San Francisco Fire Department is using wooden ladders in some Socialist plot to destroy America?

Of course it couldn't have anything to do with the state treasury having its revenue reduced drastically by those who made sure the super wealthy didn't have to pay as much of a percentage of their income in taxes as the rest of us do.

jtk

CA isn't unique, where there is dense population, there is overwhelming debt.

And that debt didn't happen overnight, it accumulated over decades.

What seems like a little bit of waste (the SFFD ladder shop) is actually part of a much larger problem.

And just because I like all things made of wood, I can't turn a blind eye and say this particular waste is okay.

We've all been told to save early, and save often. You can't easily make-up for lost early years of savings when it comes to saving for your retirement.

The same is true of gov't waste. Concentrated efforts to prevent waste may have made what are now mountains of debt, molehills in comparison.

You know, it was once thought that states would outgrow this. Then came the start of rapid industrialization in both China and India (and soon to be the African continent).

Anyone that thinks what is going on in Greece can't happen elsewhere (here) are sadly mistaken. Our stagnant real wage growth, combined with our overall debt loads, will result in a draconian future for our kids. They will never see the kind of growth we've witnessed.

Had we just realized that the party wouldn't last forever, had we just made somewhat of an effort to save where we could, our future might not be so bleak.

Oh and before anyone says this is too political, it absolutely is not a political post. This is common sense.

[george wilson]

Since politics isn't allowed,I can't even begin to comment on what is wrong with the way they do things in California. But,it isn't making wooden ladders that is driving them into debt,or the whole country,for that matter.

[Brian Holcombe]

Indeed, I think it's worth preserving things such as that. Cost isnt the only consideration in life and it would be a very dull place if that were the only consideration.

[Phil Thien]

Since politics isn't allowed,I can't even begin to comment on what is wrong with the way they do things in California. But,it isn't making wooden ladders that is driving them into debt,or the whole country,for that matter.

There is an old Chinese proverb that (roughly translated) goes like this: If you watch the pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves.

The ladders may be pennies, but waste is waste.

[george wilson]

At least they have SOMETHING to show for their money making ladders. And ladders that last for many decades. Beats just giving it away.

I thought you gave up posting on this issue,Phil.

[Phil Thien]

At least they have SOMETHING to show for their money making ladders. Beats just giving it away.

I thought you gave up posting on this issue,Phil.

I felt Jim's post, directly quoting my text, demanded a response.

I do want to thank you for the tone of your posts, George. It is refreshing to discuss issues such as these with someone that doesn't engage in logical fallacies.

You're a class act, please never go away.

[paul cottingham]

Can't wrap my head around the logic here. Creating a stronger, longer lasting ladder that reaches higher, and safer than other ladders is wasteful because no one else does it?
I guess I need to sell all my woodworking tools. Not many other people do woodworking so clearly it is a bad idea. Even if I can build better, stronger, longer lasting furniture by doing it myself, and I'm helping to keep a craft alive.

[Jim Koepke]

Can't wrap my head around the logic here. Creating a stronger, longer lasting ladder that reaches higher, and safer than other ladders is wasteful because no one else does it?
I guess I need to sell all my woodworking tools. Not many other people do woodworking so clearly it is a bad idea. Even if I can build better, stronger, longer lasting furniture by doing it myself, and I'm helping to keep a craft alive.

Paul,

It is clear neither of us have been issued the special "read between the lines" decoder ring nor the special flashlight needed to expose the socialists hiding under our beds and beneath our floor boards.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

jtk

[Phil Thien]

Paul,

It is clear neither of us have been issued the special "read between the lines" decoder ring nor the special flashlight needed to expose the socialists hiding under our beds and beneath our floor boards.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

jtk

Didn't your debate coach ever teach you that hurling insults is tantamount to admitting defeat?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Paul,

It is clear neither of us have been issued the special "read between the lines" decoder ring nor the special flashlight needed to expose the socialists hiding under our beds and beneath our floor boards.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

jtk

Quoting myself, quoting John LeCarre:

As a good socialist, I'm going where the money is; as a good capitalist, I'm sticking with the revolution.

[paul cottingham]

It was hardly an insult.

[Phil Thien]

Not when you're arguing with an idiot.
They're more experienced, and beat you with experience.

Give it a rest.

You have to own the record for insulting posts at smc.

[Dennis Aspö]

Anyone that thinks what is going on in Greece can't happen elsewhere (here) are sadly mistaken. Our stagnant real wage growth, combined with our overall debt loads, will result in a draconian future for our kids. They will never see the kind of growth we've witnessed.

That short bit after world war 2 when the income gap was historically low, was sadly a unique point in history, unlikely to be repeated and we (well I wasn't born then) voted for it to go away too.

It's just sad that my children has to pay the price for all this reaganizing and thatcherizing of the world and the descent of what was western society back into neo-feudalism where the rich have all the power, again.

Whoops, guess I politicized this thread good now.

[Jim Koepke]

Didn't your debate coach ever teach you that hurling insults is tantamount to admitting defeat?

I wasn't debating Paul's:


Can't wrap my head around the logic here. Creating a stronger, longer lasting ladder that reaches higher, and safer than other ladders is wasteful because no one else does it?

It must have been both of us not being able to 'read between the lines' to see the California bureaucracy set up to ensure taxpayer money is wasted.

If someone told you about my debate coach they were lying, never had one.

Did you have a debate coach? Did your debate coach say anything about declaring yourself out of the debate and then jumping back in?

In the long run Phil, you will be happy to prevail. People will conclude it isn't worth putting up with the disparaging remarks that come after sharing something that seemed interesting. I know I will surely think long and hard before posting something others may think is proof of some conspiracy or political agenda.

jtk

[Tom Stenzel]

.... People will conclude it isn't worth putting up with the disparaging remarks that come after sharing something that seemed interesting. I know I will surely think long and hard before posting something others may think is proof of some conspiracy or political agenda.

jtk


Like the your post of the old New York films, I'm certain I saw a poster of Karl Marx* in the background.

Subversive I think. We have trouble, real trouble I say, right here in River City!

-Tom

*Maybe it was Groucho? Just to get my shot in before this gets locked.