Dovetail, hand cut or use a DT jig?

[ken masoumi]

In your opinion is buying/using a dovetail jig the next step for anyone who has tried the hand cut method first?

After years of avoiding dovetail joinery because of my first few failed attempts, I finally have decided to once and for all face my inadequacy and try to figure out why I failed before, so, I bought myself a Lee Valley dovetail guide kit last week, I have cut 5-6 pieces already and the last one was acceptable by my own standard .

I most definitely need a lot more practice (with and without the DT guide) but it feels like it's taking forever to just cut two pieces that fit perfectly, so I started to wonder:
Does it ever become like second nature to make perfect DT joinery?
why some woodworkers prefer a dovetail jig instead of cutting by hand, is it impatience? or maybe the need to produce more than a few and quickly? too many project?
Do you think using a DT jig adds to your woodworking skills?

[Prashun Patel]

A dovetail jig produces quick, consistent results. However, the choice of dovetail bits and sometimes spacing is limited. For this reason, machine cut dovetails are usually obvious (to other woodworkers). This may or may not matter to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Machine cut dovetails are every bit as strong as properly handcut ones.

All of the skills required for dovetailing (cutting straight, efficient paring and chopping, transfering marks, knowing where to cut, knowing where to shave when the fit's too tight) all come easier as time goes on. But you have to practice.

Dovetailing is like playing an instrument. You have to put in the time to get good at it.

[Jim Dwight]

half blind dovetails with a decent jig, properly adjusted, and router (also properly adjusted) do not take much time. The time in in the setup. I keep setup jigs in a drawer below the jig to help. I dovetail the backs even though there is little stress and you hardly ever see the joint. Once everything is set up, it is less than 5 minutes more to do the back.

I will agree completely with the hand cutting advocates that say my machined dovetails are obvious to them. Most people hardly notice the joints, however, and the ones that do rarely look down on a machine cut dovetail. I also use bb plywood for drawers, so I am already not doing everything the way some would say is necessary. Works fine for me.

[Allan Speers]

I do them both ways, but as I improve with hand-cutting, setting up a jig seems tedious and just not worth it.

That said, I personally PREFER the look of crisp, even, machine-made dovetails.

[David Ragan]

If I was going to make a really nice piece of furniture using DTs, I would practice, and practice, and then cut them by hand to do it.

For me, as hard as I try, there are always mistakes, etc.

Years ago after a huge mistake-I recoiled, stepped back, took a deep breath and imagined me as someone 75 years from now, (when nearly everything will likely be 3-D printed, etc)....I pretended to be that person looking at my blunder, and said "Hey, gee, look at that (feeling pleased that I had detected an unappreciated flaw)! Somebody made this by hand!.....it is branded right here....who the heck is David Ragan????"

So I dont' fret mistakes in handmade stuff anymore.

But, when I made the white oak casket for our Beloved Boots (family cat) several years ago, I used my Leigh DT jig, brusso solid brass hinges, padded felt lining, etc. I wanted to be sure it was air/watertight.

[ken masoumi]

I don't mind the look of machine made joints but not all jigs are created equal, I would love to know what jig you guys use,I have looked at PC 4212 ,have heard a lot of praises on Katie jig, and of course who wouldn't want a Leigh DT jig but I want to give handcut dovetail a good try before going high tech.

[Mike Henderson]

Dovetail jigs are great when you have a lot of dovetails to do and the width is all the same. You can do one set up and then run the pieces through production line fashion.

If you're doing a chest of drawers, however, each drawer will be a different width. If you were doing them with a jig, each drawer would require a set up (this assumes you want to have a half pin at the top and bottom). Once you get decent with hand cut dovetails, you can usually cut them by hand faster than you can go through the jig set up.

And if it's an heirloom piece of furniture, you, and the people who eventually own the furniture, will have the pride of having a piece which was "hand crafted".

Mike

[Kent A Bathurst]

had a Dt jig. used it a few times. took me longer to get the doggone router setups dialed in than hand cutting [well, almost], so I sold it and just decided to learn to do it OK - not great, but OK. I didn't think it turned out to be all that hard, as compared with what I had thought it would be like.......

Also - I don't like the look of the standardized DT from the jig. WOuld rather make up my own angles and spacing, to be honest. YYMV

[Andrew Hughes]

If I didn't dislike routers so much I would get Dt jig.I have a Festool router but never completely trust it.
I do sometimes use my small bandsaw the table tilts left and right so no silly ramp is needed.
I keep up my Dt skills with small boxes.It really is just a matter of pushing or pulling the saw back and forth straight.As others have mentioned woodworkers are really the only ones that notice.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'll be honest - I do a lot of details in joinery and design that only I will likely ever notice.

I walk away satisfied. The heck with everyone else, right? :D

[David Linnabary]

In your opinion is buying/using a dovetail jig the next step for anyone who has tried the hand cut method first?

After years of avoiding dovetail joinery because of my first few failed attempts, I finally have decided to once and for all face my inadequacy and try to figure out why I failed before, so, I bought myself a Lee Valley dovetail guide kit last week, I have cut 5-6 pieces already and the last one was acceptable by my own standard .

I most definitely need a lot more practice (with and without the DT guide) but it feels like it's taking forever to just cut two pieces that fit perfectly, so I started to wonder:
Does it ever become like second nature to make perfect DT joinery?
why some woodworkers prefer a dovetail jig instead of cutting by hand, is it impatience? or maybe the need to produce more than a few and quickly? too many project?
Do you think using a DT jig adds to your woodworking skills?

Kent,

Sounds to me like you have one chink in your armor that needs to be worked out regardless if you buy a dovetail jig. Why not just identify it and master it now? It's probably a basic skill that will serve you later. Mine was always sawing to the line consistently, luckily that's the easiest to practice. My problem was not that I didn't know how to cut to the line but rather consistency. That and I thought I knew how to use a hand saw. What I really needed was to slow down and stay slow in order to establish a muscle memory that I simply couldn't do it wrong. I had to break a few bad habits in the process. :)

If you lay out the end grain of a board with lines and just practice cutting, it's amazing the difference you will see when comparing one cut to the next. That's when it will begin to soak in and you'll slow down. Then the light bulb will go off, the object is not cutting wood but rather to train muscles. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

The other skills can be developed in a similar way.

David

[Dave Richards]

I generally dislike the appearance of dovetails cut with tungsten carbide router bits. To my eye they look rather obese. And I really dislike the zipper tooth pattern created by the comb type jigs. If I'm going to cut dovetails with a router, I use HSS cutters which are slimmer than carbide ones.

One option that you might consider if you are thinking about router cut dovetails is the Router Boss (http://chipsfly.com/). It's not specifically a dovetail jig but with it, you can cut dovetails using absolutely any dovetail bit you want with any spacing. You could work in much the same way you would when hand cutting. You could space the sockets on the fly and cut the pins to match. Heck, you could even cut the sockets by hand and then cut the pins on the Router Boss. After you've cut the first dovetail joint, you'll find it is very intuitive and you won't need to get the instructions out every time you use it.

You can do a lot more with the Router Boss than cut dovetails so it's much more flexible than the dovetail jigs out there. And since it is mounted on the wall, it doesn't occupy any valuable bench space.

[roger wiegand]

I do both, by hand when it's faster just to do it than set up a jig (or when I feel like it), using a Leigh jig when there's lots to do or when the wood is valuable enough that I don't want to risk messing it up. I don't mind the look of the jig-made dovetails, I do use the 8 degree bits and play with the spacing to have it look better (e.g. correct half pins at the ends, at least) than the uniformly-spaced wide splayed pins some jigs produce. I am also bothered by pins so skinny they have little structural strength-- they seems precious and pretentious-- as if the maker is demanding that you notice that they are hand cut, at the expense of accomplishing the purpose of the joint.

[Robert Engel]

I agree with a couple of the posters re: the look of machine cut as well as the time to set up, particularly when you have only one of two of diff sized drawers (which you almost always do) the set up time isn't really worth it.

Hand cut DT's are not difficult to master it just takes a lot of practice. You get to the point where you can literally built a 4" drawer box in less than 15 minutes. I learned by just doing them on drawers that are utility drawers, like for the shop.

There are a couple little tricks that can speed up the process.

If you cut the tails first you can do several drawers stacked together all at once (more accurate 90 degree cuts, too).
If you plane a little rabbet on the inside of the tails, then marking out the pins is lot more accurate.

Last, but not least is you've GOT to have high quality tools: an excellent rip saw + superior chisels with low side bevels.

If you want to cut them by machine, I would look into the table saw method. Mike Pekovich demonstrates this in one of this videos.

Last but not least, I think we fret WAY too much over DT's. Take a look at the DT's on some antique furniture you'll see what I mean.

[Kent A Bathurst]

yeah - and, as far as drawers go - - how often are the dt's even seen, unless you are showing them off to someone?

there's functional, and then there's artistic.............

[Roy Harding]

I have the Leigh D4R jig and use it a LOT. BUT - I'm usually making 10 or more same sized boxes at the same time, or blanket chests, which involve a LOT of dovetails. When I have only one small box to do, I'll do it by hand - it's faster than dialing the jig in perfectly. I do like being able to make differently spaced dovetails, when done right it can add some visual interest to a piece.

Although it's true that you cannot achieve extremely narrow tails with it, I'm usually working with red cedar and narrow tails would be prone to failure when assembling anyway - even when I hand cut in cedar, my tails are wide.

All that said - a good jig (like the Leigh) is pricey, you'll have to determine if it's worth the expense in your particular case.

[ken masoumi]

Every part of the hand cut method is a challenge for me,from marking to cutting on a straight line, the proper use of chisels, etc., but what I have difficulty the most is consistency,I make two pieces fit nicely but the next two have gaps .
Here are a few examples:
My very first try was with pine and it looked terrible, I now know pine is not the best wood to learn dovetail :
315801

I then used hardwood, Cherry and Maple:
315802 315803
I still have to sand them down a bit but you can probably see the gaps in the Maple,I guess I have to cover it up with the help of some glue/sawdust.

[Allan Speers]

One more "tip" about DT's :



Box joints are easier, faster, & just as strong once glued. - and no one but you will ever know the difference.

Sad but true. :(

[Prashun Patel]

It's funny you mention this, Allan. In fact, I find that the ONE thing non-woodworkers seem to know too much about is 'dovetailed drawers'. Most people who handle my desks or casework first open the drawers and look for the dovetails. It's something I think cabinetry retailers have done a good marketing job of. I'm not saying they can tell the diff between hand and machine cut, though.

[David C. Roseman]

It's funny you mention this, Allan. In fact, I find that the ONE thing non-woodworkers seem to know too much about is 'dovetailed drawers'. Most people who handle my desks or casework first open the drawers and look for the dovetails. It's something I think cabinetry retailers have done a good marketing job of. I'm not saying they can tell the diff between hand and machine cut, though.

Agree with Prashun on this. Over the years I've noticed that even folks who've never picked up a saw seem to know about dovetail joints in cabinetry and associate them with good workmanship. Bet very few of them would recognize the difference between machined and hand-cut. I think any well-cut dovetail joint looks impressive to a non-woodworker, as it's not immediately obvious how they are made, in contrast to box/finger joints. Not to take anything away from the latter, as they can be quite beautiful, but I've yet to see anyone open a drawer and say, "Oh, wow, look, the drawers are even box-jointed!" :)

[Allan Speers]

Well, in my experience, 99% of people who even care if a piece is well made will look at box joints and say,

"Wow, it has dovetails!"

[Tom M King]

I keep a jig for half blinds set up for kitchen cabinet drawers. It has had a dedicated router set up for something over 25 years. We might average building one kitchen a year. I also have a Leigh jig with a couple of dedicated routers set up for it, and it stays set for 3/4 stock. I can pull either one of these setups out and dovetail something with no setup time, other than maybe stepping something off with dividers to space dovetails made with the Leigh rig, which of course can make non repetitive spaced dovetails, but I still use whole number fractional proportions of the width. When the job calls for narrow pins, or to match the rest of an old piece, they are cut by hand.

On one of my hand saw boxes, I made one end with the Leigh, and cut the other end by hand in the exact same proportions. That way I can tell people who poo-poo anything but hand cut dovetails that they can look at the end that was hand cut. So far, I haven't found one of these "purists" who can tell the difference on that box. That box gets slid around on the floor of the tool trailer, so I didn't want narrow pins on it anyway.

[Jim Becker]

I have to answer your question in the title is "yes"... :)

Both have their applications and I use both methods; the jig for half-blinds for sure, although I do play with the spacing. (Leigh jig) and hand-cut for through dovetails. I've learned how to fix "boo boos" in the latter in various ways, too, so the end result is pleasing. Toward that end, Ken (OP), you can fill gaps with shavings/slivers of wood that are inserted at an angle so you get the "end grain" effect on both edges of the joint. They disappear once the glue is dried and things are sanded/planed smooth... :)

[Mike Henderson]

I find half blind dovetails easier to hand cut than through dovetails. With half blinds you have a lot less showing. If you make the socket too big in the bottom-back, no one will ever know. With through dovetails, they have to be perfect on all sides.

Mike

[ken masoumi]

I definitely got my answer and will be looking for a decent Dovetail jig , most probably a Leigh jig, I still don't know which one to get but it I'll find that out soon.
Thank you for your comments.
Ken.

[Lou Ortiz]

I've cut them both ways. The leigh is a great jig - i have a D4 - and does allow variable spacing. Keep the manual open at all times...