Glued up panels...How long in the clamps?

[Stuart Welsh]

I'm about to embark on a large glue up of panels for custom door panels and sides on my SubZero refrigerator/freezer. The enclosure is designed to look like an armoire and will feature 72 raised panels ranging in size from 10 x 14 down to 6 x 5. I have no where near the clamps needed to glue a large portion of these up at one time and am curious just how long I need to keep the panels in the clamps before I can safely remove them for use on another panel. Of course climate matters and glue variety too. I'll be working in an un-airconditioned garage here in north Texas so temps will be in the upper 80's as for glue I plan on using Titebond III.

[Charles Lent]

I use Titebond II for almost all of my glue-ups. From my experience 4 hours is more than enough at 68-80 degrees shop temperature. You can even reduce that to just a couple of hours if there is no spring energy in the wood wanting to pull the joint apart. Full strength of the joint will take 12 hours or more, but enough strength will be there to remove the clamps and carefully set the piece aside to fully dry in just a few hours.

Charley

[David Nelson1]

Stuart I'm doing close to what you are but nowhere near the panels you have planned for. I have to agree with Stuart 100%. Make sure you get them as close to level as possible to minimize the bowing. to much clamping pressure will also cause the same. Cauls help If I use them I usually cut an area out at the glue line to avoid searing the glue into the grain.

[David Eisenhauer]

I pull my raised panel cabinet door clamps in the summertime (regular, original Titebond) in my non-AC Austin shop after an hour if I am making a full-kitchen run of doors. I don't get rough with the doors after pulling the clamps, just remove-move to storage spot-stack so I can use the clamps and assembly/glueing space for the next batch. I have done this for 20+ years with no issues. As someone above said, doors usually don't have lots of tension or other forces trying to pull them apart. The clamps hold until the glue sets and then are not needed during the cure out.

[John Lanciani]

I use Lee Valley's GF2002 pva glue and I've never had a failure removing the panel from the clamps after 60 minutes (or less, some times only 30 if i'm rushed). Shop temps range from 60 to 75 deg and RH from 25 - 50%.

[Robert Engel]

Depends on temp and glue.

Most yellow glues will cure enough to take out of clamps in a couple hours if its above 60 degrees.

White glues I leave in longer, usually "clamp and forget" type thing.

I glued up some frames yesterday and it was 97 degrees here. I BARELY got it done on the first one glue set up in 5 minutes.
Nearly panicked on the second one so I switched to white glue.

[Rod Sheridan]

Like John, I use the Lee Valley 2002GF glue and clamp items for an hour............Regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

Depending on the assembly I will wait 30 minutes to an hour if I REALLY can't wait. From the Franklin site:

What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I use T-III to glue one joint at a time, with cauls to keep dead-flat [I mean, joint cleanup with a card scraper - that kind of flat].

In the clamps till the squeeze-out bead becomes rubbery...45 min most days - temp and humidity sensitive, of course.

Release the clamps, card scraper to lift the glue bead before it hardens, add the next board, reclamp, start the clock, rinse, repeat..........

On an item with only 1 joint, still release @ rubbery - so I can scrape it off - then wait till tomorrow to put it under any kind of stress.........

[Charles Wiggins]

From: http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx

What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?

For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours. For Titebond Polyurethane Glue, we recommend clamping for at least forty-five minutes. The glue is completely cured within 6 hours.

From: http://elmers.com/product/detail/e7010
Carpenter's® Interior Wood Glue 8 fl oz. Bottle

Product Description:

Elmer’s Carpenter’s Interior Wood Glue is made just for furniture repair and general household projects. The interior wood glue is best for soft and hardwoods, particle board and porous materials. Light color for natural and light stained woods - color when dry: Yellow. Clean up: soap and water when glue is wet; scrape and sand when glue is dry.


Open Time: 10-15 minutes before clamping
Clamp Time: 12 hours


From: http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030207.pdf
SETTING TIME: Almost immediately for fabrics and paper. On flat laminations and tight fitting joints,pressure may be released before glue has completely set if rough handling is avoided. The pressure periodwill vary from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on the species of wood, thickness of the lay-up,temperature and relative humidity at the time of gluing. Pressure periods for spruce, mahogany, poplar,maple and birch are approximately the same. Under normal conditions, joint reaches maximum strength in72 hours.

[Phil Thien]

72 panels on a refrigerator?

Holy smokes!

You have to post a picture of this.

[Stuart Welsh]

Here is a SketchUp rendering...

315751

I'll post pictures when I'm done.

[David Ragan]

All my panels stay glued up using T-III for at least 4 hours, maybe overnight. Joint lines straight, no spring.

[jack duren]

All my panels stay glued up using T-III for at least 4 hours, maybe overnight. Joint lines straight, no spring.

Why the use of II or III for interiors doors?

[Martin Wasner]

Here is a SketchUp rendering...

315751

I'll post pictures when I'm done.

Dude, glue up one big panel and cut what you need out of it. If you want to get real fancy, mark and number every panel so the grain all lines up. Gluing up that many tiny panels individually would make me pull out my hair.

Otherwise, an hour is usually sufficient. Might want to wait a couple hours before running it through a planer.

[Jim Andrew]

In the shop where I worked, we kept panels clamped for 30 minutes, but let them be till the next day far as machining etc.

[David Ragan]

Why the use of II or III for interiors doors?

Its just easier for me to keep one glue instead of 2 or 3. I don't use a bunch. Just bought a gallon of T-III, will last around 3 years.

Is there a reason to not use T-III for interior?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Just bought a gallon of T-III, will last around 3 years.



theoretically, at least

shelf life for opened container probably won't make it that long..be looking out for problems down the road

happened to me, so i went back to pints.........more $$$, but no shelf life problems..........

[Pat Barry]

Here is a SketchUp rendering...

315751

I'll post pictures when I'm done.
That's going to be a cool cabinet. Are those doors going to be attached to the refrigerator doors or separate? They look separate the way its drawn so now you will have to open the wooden door, then the refrigerator door to get a cold bottle of beer. You will need several when this project is complete because that is one heckuva lot of work.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Depending on the assembly I will wait 30 minutes to an hour if I REALLY can't wait. From the Franklin site:

What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?

For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours.

I generally clamp my Tight Bond III panels for about an hour before I pull the clamps and scrape the squeeze out. I do not stress these boards (by like say running them through my surface planer). I have no idea how much stress they can handle after 1 hour since I (as they recommend) do not stress them until the next day.

[jack duren]

Its just easier for me to keep one glue instead of 2 or 3. I don't use a bunch. Just bought a gallon of T-III, will last around 3 years.

Is there a reason to not use T-III for interior?

I wouldn't buy any glue in a container expecting to use it 2-3 years from now. Glue is not that expensive but a good shirt with Titebond III on it will cost more than the glue.

[Leo Graywacz]

At those temps you can unclamp in 30-45 minutes. Realistically you can probably unclamp in 20-25 minutes if your machinery produces nice straight joints with no stress.

[Bill Orbine]

If you are talking about gluing up individual panels........... why not glue up to larger panels and cut'em to pieces afterwards?

[Stuart Welsh]

If you are talking about gluing up individual panels........... why not glue up to larger panels and cut'em to pieces afterwards?

I hadn't thought about that. I was given the wood which is already s4s at 3/4 and the sticks are either 5 1/2 or 11 1/4" in width, 96" long so I'll have to be careful about wasting too much. I may have about 20 bf more than what I calculate as the board feet needed but I'd hate to run out.

[Stuart Welsh]

Dude, glue up one big panel and cut what you need out of it. If you want to get real fancy, mark and number every panel so the grain all lines up. Gluing up that many tiny panels individually would make me pull out my hair.

Otherwise, an hour is usually sufficient. Might want to wait a couple hours before running it through a planer.

That one big panel would be huge! Some small panels will be easy, as I'll just rip a 5 1/2 board down the middle, glue it back and cut it to size.

[Stuart Welsh]

That's going to be a cool cabinet. Are those doors going to be attached to the refrigerator doors or separate? They look separate the way its drawn so now you will have to open the wooden door, then the refrigerator door to get a cold bottle of beer. You will need several when this project is complete because that is one heckuva lot of work.

The design is to look as if it is an armoire. The freezer door is on the left and is about 19" wide, the fridge door is about 26" wide but the panel will be made to look like two. Both doors will be attached. They mount to a 1/4" backer that slides into a frame on the door.

[Leo Graywacz]

Just glue up a couple of small panels at the same time in the clamp. The non glued edges won't bond. So it you put 6 boards in a clamp and glue between 3 pairs you triple your glue up speed.

When I glue solid wood edges on plywood for shelving I always do them in pairs. You get the equal pressure distribution from the long edge contact. So you get a nice solid glue up.

[John Lanciani]

?..I'll just rip a 5 1/2 board down the middle, glue it back and cut it to size.

Why? Most of those panels can be one piece, no need to glue up any that are narrower than your widest available stock.

[Stuart Welsh]

Why? Most of those panels can be one piece, no need to glue up any that are narrower than your widest available stock.

I'm relatively new to this hobby but I have heard from experienced woodworkers, read instruction from the same, that to prevent cupping panels should be glued up with boards no wider than 3-4".

[Mel Fulks]

I think that narrow board reccomendation originated from glue companies,and I have some of their "gluing guides"that show it. It is nothing more than an attempt to keep their product from being blamed for poor jointing. Narrow boards poorly prepared might flex enough to stay together,wide ones will not. I ve talked to some of the reps and been told they even get small samples and pics sent to them showing extreme convex and extreme concave joints with notes blaming the glue for not holding.

[Stuart Welsh]

I think that narrow board reccomendation originated from glue companies,and I have some of their "gluing guides"that show it. It is nothing more than an attempt to keep their product from being blamed for poor jointing. Narrow boards poorly prepared might flex enough to stay together,wide ones will not. I ve talked to some of the reps and been told they even get small samples and pics sent to them showing extreme convex and extreme concave joints with notes blaming the glue for not holding.

So what is your preference for board width when gluing up panels?

[Leo Graywacz]

I'm relatively new to this hobby but I have heard from experienced woodworkers, read instruction from the same, that to prevent cupping panels should be glued up with boards no wider than 3-4".

What they say is true. Narrow boards will help prevent cupping. But it looks like crap.

[Mel Fulks]

Well matched and wide as possible for anything that will be stained. For painted work using up short accumulated pieces is a consideration. With access to a jointer and planer you quickly learn what wide boards you will be able to flatten and which will have to be ripped to flatten. I've glued up thousands of panels, and since about 1990 offered $20 per panel to anyone who could show me one that opened up on the ends or any similar defect. I use the much debated sprung joint method and had zero claims. I don't blame the glue reps for advocating a policy that lets them stay in business.

[John Lanciani]

So what is your preference for board width when gluing up panels?

As wide as possible. I have a 16" jointer so that is my hard limit but there is absolutely no reason to be ripping boards just to glue them back together. There isn't a single panel in your piece that needs to be a glue up.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......I have heard from experienced woodworkers, read instruction from the same, that to prevent cupping panels should be glued up with boards no wider than 3-4".



What they say is true. Narrow boards will help prevent cupping.

Stuart & Leo - I'm sorry - not picking a fight here, but you landed on one of my pet peeves, and so:

Whomever "they" are, "they" are full of 100% 24kt-solid-gold bullcrap. Period.

These so-called "experienced woodworkers" who are happy to toss out their "instructions" must certainly have some level of experience, but not in making fine furniture.

No disrespect to a valuable use of their time, but maybe wooden christmas toys? I have no hope of being able to make those - but I can make furniture.

If you have good quality, properly dried and prepared boards, and properly assembled and finished pieces, the width of the stock does not matter.

[DISCLAIMER: If you buy 12" S4S pine from the BORG, and glue up 2 pieces as they came from the store, I cannot advise you what will happen.......]

In fact, wider boards look much better, and are easier to use [no time gluing up, no uneven glue joints if that is a problem you have].

I recently made a couple hall tables out of single board, 16", very high $$ curly maple [like..>$20/bf]. What..."they" want me to rip it down?

And then what - reassemble it as it originally was, so I have the same fiber structure, only in shorter chunks? Just think it through rationally....How does that even make sense?

Look at the really, really old furniture in the museums............

"They" are probably the same people that ground their PVC DC pipes, right? THis is an old wive's tale that gained credence because it "seems right", and got repeated often enough that it is "common knowledge"....unless you engage all your synapses and think it through logically.


:mad: :mad:

OK - Rant is over.:)

And now, back to your previously scheduled programming...........

[Leo Graywacz]

There is no fighting against physics. A small board won't move as much as a wide board. If you alternate rings they it makes it even less prone to cupping.

I hate, using small stock to do glue ups. I don't use it because it looks terrible. But it doesn't invalidate the fact that the small boards are less prone to large movements.

Most of my kitchen doors are made from 2 or 3 boards. Usually around 6-8" wide each. My limit is from my jointer which is 8". I to have made a tabletop from 2 boards that were in the 18" wide range each. Still looks great and no movement. You just need quality wood. And I agree that isn't bought at the borg.

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK -

First: So, I take 3 boards @ 4" wide and glue them up, rather than using one board @ 12" wide. How it the world does that defeat the expansion/contraction movement due to seasonal changes in humidity in a 12" hunk of wood? Isn't a 12" board a 12" board no matter how many pieces are in it?

Next: How come I have never - never - had any of this "cupping" problem from using wide boards over the past 15 years. Are the physics different in Connecticut than they are in Michigan/Virginia/Atlanta/St Louis [the locations of my furniture pieces?

Last: You are, I think, focusing on cupping. If you have properly dried wood, and you use proper techniques in build/assembly, that issue goes away. For the record, I most often use QSA wood, which eliminates the issue of flat-sawn grain. But still.............

Leo - I agree - no fighting physics. However - respectfully - you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own physics, nor your own facts. Your work is beautiful, and I admire it. What works for you works for you.

[jack duren]

Stuart & Leo - I'm sorry - not picking a fight here, but you landed on one of my pet peeves, and so:

Whomever "they" are, "they" are full of 100% 24kt-solid-gold bullcrap. Period.

These so-called "experienced woodworkers" who are happy to toss out their "instructions" must certainly have some level of experience, but not in making fine furniture.

No disrespect to a valuable use of their time, but maybe wooden christmas toys? I have no hope of being able to make those - but I can make furniture.

If you have good quality, properly dried and prepared boards, and properly assembled and finished pieces, the width of the stock does not matter.

[DISCLAIMER: If you buy 12" S4S pine from the BORG, and glue up 2 pieces as they came from the store, I cannot advise you what will happen.......]

In fact, wider boards look much better, and are easier to use [no time gluing up, no uneven glue joints if that is a problem you have].

I recently made a couple hall tables out of single board, 16", very high $$ curly maple [like..>$20/bf]. What..."they" want me to rip it down?

And then what - reassemble it as it originally was, so I have the same fiber structure, only in shorter chunks? Just think it through rationally....How does that even make sense?

Look at the really, really old furniture in the museums............

"They" are probably the same people that ground their PVC DC pipes, right? THis is an old wive's tale that gained credence because it "seems right", and got repeated often enough that it is "common knowledge"....unless you engage all your synapses and think it through logically.


:mad: :mad:

OK - Rant is over.:)

And now, back to your previously scheduled programming...........

.....................315858 Please flush when your done