5/4 Lumber, you may already know this

[Scott Brandstetter]

but wanted to pass along what I learned this morning. I've been asking in other threads about building drawer boxes; what material, thickness, etc. Most have come back that 1/2 inch is the right thickness (I am building bedroom sets and selling them). I've been struggling with the idea of planing, jointing my 4/4 lumber all the way down to 1/2 inch.

Someone mentioned 5/4 lumber and I thought no way this was possible but I called my mill today. Amazingly, they said no problem 20 bf or 2000 bf. Now I can get two 1/2 inches out of it with much less weight.

I might be embarassing myself but I really didn't think a mill would do this for such little amount of bf. Cost of 4/4 is $1.75, cost for 5/4 is $2.00. Problem solved.

[Charles Lent]

Have you asked your mill if they could make 5/8" thick rough stock so you wouldn't need to re-saw it? I get quite a bit of loss from my re-sawing attempts. They may be willing to do this too. You could then just run it a few passes through your planer and then make the drawers from it. I used to live near a family run lumber yard that stocked 1/2" X 10" select and planed fir for their cabinet making customers. It was almost the cost of 3/4" select pine, but well worth it for the ease of using it. That was over 30 years ago and I think I still have some of it left. The drawers in a double wide bathroom vanity that I made for this house all have drawer sides that I made from it.

Charley

[Kent A Bathurst]

scott - is it an actual sawmill, or are you buying from a lumber distributor?

either way - depending on the species, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 and 8/4 are pretty standard items

[Allan Speers]

What Kent said.

Also, I doubt they are custom-cutting it for you, because then it would be green wood, and you'd have to sticker it for a year or so.


FWIW, I like Charles' idea re getting 5/8" Maple, if possible, and stock it just for drawers. I've always used plywood, but I want to start building nicer stuff. Plus, Maple has considerably less sag than plywood.

[Judson Green]

When I was in the business I would use 1common ash and plane it down to ½". Made lots of shavings but those went to some clients with horses. Don't know if its your thing, but maple is usually available in a 1C and also a brown grade too. The brown grade has, as the name might imply, lots of brown mineral streaking in it- usually used for painted woodwork.

[David Kumm]

I prefer 1" rails and stiles too so I always order 5/4 stock. Thicker stuff is often nicer too as they come from bigger trees. Dave

[Larry Fox]

Another idea. You mention you are making things with drawers and selling them. To me, I have made enough drawers and done the math and for my own situation I can't even come close to these guys when making my own. I also find drawer making thankless work - you might feel otherwise.

http://www.newenglanddrawer.com

great product, great prices, great service - all delivered to your door The economics of scale is a wonderful thing.

This is isn't even close to being related to 5/4 lumber but I thought I would throw it out there.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Another idea. You mention you are making things with drawers and selling them. To me, I have made enough drawers and done the math and for my own situation I can't even come close to these guys when making my own. I also find drawer making thankless work - you might feel otherwise.

http://www.newenglanddrawer.com

great product, great prices, great service - all delivered to your door The economics of scale is a wonderful thing.

This is isn't even close to being related to 5/4 lumber but I thought I would throw it out there.

Larry - did not follow your link, but I get the point.

For a custom piece with one or two drawers - marking tools, handsaws, planes, and chisels. But - If I ever get conned into another kitchen, it is purchased drawers with a 1/8" veneer front. LIfe's too short, and I got nothing to prove.

[Judson Green]

I prefer 1" rails and stiles too so I always order 5/4 stock. Thicker stuff is often nicer too as they come from bigger trees. Dave

Same here regarding the face frame and doors. Actually I made the face frame as thick as would mill proper stock, then milled the door stock down further to accommodate for the bumpers - this was for inset doors.

Drawers I never resawed. Two reasons... 1) was afraid the halves would cup or warp or other wise be no good after and 2) cuz I didn't really have a decent resaw setup, onesie twosie wouldn't have been a problem, but a kitchen worth? No thanks.

[Scott Brandstetter]

Kent, Allan, it is a sawmill but they don't stock anything other than 8/4 or 4/4....it's a small family run place. You've peaked my interest though. When I spoke to them this morning they said they would cut it and then put it in the kiln. Said something about it wouldn't take too long in the kiln to dry. Since I wouldn't be in a hurry, I figured even if it took a month, that would work for me. I would buy enough to last 4-6 months at a time. Does this sound correct or will I be getting wet wood? I could take my meter I guess to read the moisture.

[Allan Speers]

Kent, Allan, it is a sawmill but they don't stock anything other than 8/4 or 4/4....it's a small family run place. You've peaked my interest though. When I spoke to them this morning they said they would cut it and then put it in the kiln. Said something about it wouldn't take too long in the kiln to dry. Since I wouldn't be in a hurry, I figured even if it took a month, that would work for me. I would buy enough to last 4-6 months at a time. Does this sound correct or will I be getting wet wood? I could take my meter I guess to read the moisture.


I forgot about kiln drying. My bad ! The only sawyer I've ever bought from doesn't use a kiln, so this slipped my mind.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, Allan, it is a sawmill but they don't stock anything other than 8/4 or 4/4....it's a small family run place. You've peaked my interest though. When I spoke to them this morning they said they would cut it and then put it in the kiln. Said something about it wouldn't take too long in the kiln to dry. Since I wouldn't be in a hurry, I figured even if it took a month, that would work for me. I would buy enough to last 4-6 months at a time. Does this sound correct or will I be getting wet wood? I could take my meter I guess to read the moisture.


Nah - you'll be fine - but you should ask him what MC% you will see on the 5/4 out of the kiln - that's a reasonable question for anyone to ask.

[Jim Andrew]

Drawer material is usually a problem for me, so this spring I sawed a bunch of red elm 5/4, figured I could flatten one side, resaw it and have two flat pieces 5/8" thick. Did 22 drawers for my nephews kitchen, some were 12" deep this last winter, hard to find enough stuff to make all those boxes.

[Scott T Smith]

Kent, Allan, it is a sawmill but they don't stock anything other than 8/4 or 4/4....it's a small family run place. You've peaked my interest though. When I spoke to them this morning they said they would cut it and then put it in the kiln. Said something about it wouldn't take too long in the kiln to dry. Since I wouldn't be in a hurry, I figured even if it took a month, that would work for me. I would buy enough to last 4-6 months at a time. Does this sound correct or will I be getting wet wood? I could take my meter I guess to read the moisture.

Scott, I could not find where you indicated what species of wood that you're buying, but usually 5/4 takes about a 20% longer than 4/4 to dry. For resawing purposes, it is critical that the lumber have the same MC% in the core as it does on the shell, otherwise the resawn boards will cup coming off of the resaw. If you are buying flat sawn oak, the typical kiln schedule calls for at least 5 weeks for 5/4 material. Quartersawn material requires about 10% - 15% greater drying time.

If you go with the thinner stock, it is more difficult to dry straight (5/8" thickness). 11/16 - 3/4" is about as thin as you can dry flat, and that requires perfect stickering.

Most mills charge the same for lumber < 1" thick as they do for 1" stock. The reason why is that it costs them the same in labor and milling related costs to mill 3/4 as it does to mill 1", so usually the milling cost per board foot is the same for any material 1" and less.

Thicker boards cost more due to the increased costs in handling them, plus the fact that the drying costs are much greater per bd ft for 4/3 and 8/4 than they are for 4/4.

[Peter Quinn]

Ime splitting 5/4, even well dried KD material, is not a perfect solution to the drawer box problem. That only leaves you 1/8" to flatten and dress both faces.It doesn't always stay flat over its length and can bow enough over its length to render it useless. Maybe not every board, but enough to influence your waste factor. At least you can use ruined re saw material for fuel versus shavings from 4/4. But for ordering purposes do consider the potential waste. I've heard of drawer box companies ordering loads of thinner material, like heavy 3/4? Like Scott said there are limits to how thin they can dry and it's a lot more handling, it only works at a certain scale. I'm interested to see how this works out for you. The shop I'm in makes maybe 20 to 150 drawer boxes in a given month, 5/8 thickness, splitting stock has never worked well for us.

[ian maybury]

:) I'm just jealous at the supply options you guys have available in the US - not just options, but informed options.

For hardwood i get to choose between a few importers of pre-dried wood, the condition of which could be anything. Plus several processors running small band mills and drying themselves...

[Jim Matthews]

http://www.newenglanddrawer.com

This is isn't even close to being related to 5/4 lumber but I thought I would throw it out there.

After wrestling with this same problem with a contemplated kitchen remodel, this was really helpful and unknown to me.
The only providers I could find from online searching are dominating the magazines and electronic advertising.

Thanks for this, I had never heard of them and they're CHEAPER than my local building supplier who imports everything!

[Andrew Ulsher]

What does a drawer have to cost pre-made to make it worthwhile versus building?

I'm interested in how Kent was conned into a kitchen remodel as well.

[Larry Fox]

What does a drawer have to cost pre-made to make it worthwhile versus building?

I'm interested in how Kent was conned into a kitchen remodel as well.

For me, anything in the $30-$40 range for a "standard" kitchen drawer built to my specs, of very good quality and finished is a no-brainer for me and iirc New England Drawer is cheaper than that.

Consider a kitchen drawer 24" deep, 6" tall and 12" wide. These are "made up" dimensions to make the math easier but they are not far off.

There is 3 bd ft of lumber in that drawer plus the plywood for the bottom. Where I buy wood 4/4 FAS soft maple is $3.75 per bd ft with a waste factor of 30%. So I am in (3 * 3.75) * 1.3 = $14.62 for just the wood. Call is $5(ish) for the plywood and you are in $20 for just the wood.

Add $5.00 for the consumables (sandpaper, finishing supplies etc) you are going to use and you are in $25.

So now the question now boils down to: are you willing to mill stock, cut the dovetails, sand the insides, ease the edges, glue them, sand / plane the outside after the glue dries and go through the finishing process for $15. For a "commodity" kitchen drawer - no way for me. YMMV.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm interested in how Kent was conned into a kitchen remodel as well.

I shot myself in the foot, is how. As my Dad used to tell me - with no notable success - "Don't let your mouth write any checks you <butt> can't cash."

Way back when, I jumped into the ww rabbit hole.

I picked a target piece, and said "Someday, I want to be able to make this."

THen, I mapped out a series/sequence of pre-requisite skills to learn, and then laid out a sequence of thing to build to learn them.

The last skill was inset cabinet doors, with true divided lites.

Then, I screwed up.

LOML - "Maybe someday we should update the kitchen."

Me - "I'll do it."

Actually, kept existing carcasses, and built a new cherry ends, and face frames.

Then - 32 inset doors, and 26 had divided lites/muntins/stained glass. Twenty. Six.`

I was bored after 4.

and 8 -10 inset drawers.

It was beautiful, though - gotta admit that