Kitchen knife sharpening

[Dave Cav]

I want to get ONE stone to keep in the kitchen for sharpening kitchen knives. I don't like taking the knives out to the shop to sharpen them, and I don't like bringing my shop stones (Shapton Pros) into the kitchen and back out to the shop. Since about the only stones I haven't tried yet are Spydercos, I thought about getting one of their bench stones. For general sharpening should I get the medium or the fine? I'm afraid the medium might not be fine enough for general work, but I also wonder if the fine might be too slow to bring the edges back up in a reasonable amount of time.

[Sam Murdoch]

I think you would be very happy with the Spyderco TriAngle Sharpmaker

https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77

Available from many sources. If you are doing no more than maintaining edges the basic set is a near perfect tool. It is really more of a sharp "keeper" than sharp "maker". Excellent for serrated edges too. If you need to reprofile or really work up a damaged edge you would likely want to add a set of the diamond rods but this in not needed for basic edge keeping in the kitchen. This is a set up that is clean and safe and very easy to use. Stores in its case or leave on the counter ready to go.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have heard only good about the spyderco stones, but have yet to try one myself. Since you do own other stones I would go with the fine and you can always dress a damaged edge at the shop.

This might be one of the rare cases where I would recommend getting a good combo stone. I do not like them due to cross-contamination of the grit, but really that isn't a big issue and more of a minute detail thing. Kitchen knives are users, so any minute detail is lost with the first few uses anyway.

[george wilson]

I have lately just been using a fine diamond stone for sharpening knives for food. The tiny teeth the stone makes on kitchen knives are very effective for slicing meat and vegetables. I see no need to go back to making a smooth,razor like edge. That razor edge doesn't stay very long any way,with the inevitable clacking of the knife on the cutting board that my wife does. She has been quite happy with the diamond stoned edge.

[ian maybury]

+1 on that. I wouldn't want to do it on a fancy pants chef's knife, but i've sharpened kitchen knives on a carboroundum sharpening stone as used on scythes and the like (this sort of thing, but usually with a handle: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Scythe-Sharpener-Stone-Heavy/dp/B0036HMX22 ) since I was a kid. It makes a bit of a joke of all the finesse usually applied, but as George the toothing means it cuts as well if not better than any polished edge on foodstuffs.

The fact of the matter is that most of the time the steel in kitchen knives is so lousy that any serious attempt to put a fine edge on it just results in a turned edge anyway. Even if with delicacy you get past thatit blunts in moments anyway - whereas the toothing keeps on going for quite a while.

[Allen Jordan]

I've taken to using a paper wheel system for sharpening kitchen knives. It can't be beat for curved edges.

[Joel Goodman]

I find the 600/1200 (fine/extra fine) Duosharp diamond stone w holder works really well for kitchen knives, be they carbon or stainless. Lee Valley sells them as do many others. Without the stand the "stone" is only about 3/8" thick and is inconvenient.



8" Diamond Bench Stone, 600x/1200x
70M04.11 http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/view_Off.gif http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/acc_Off.gif http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/tech_Off.gif http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/instr_Off.gif

$96.00










Plastic Stand for 6", 8", 10" Stones
70M04.30 http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/view_On.gif (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=33005&cat=1,43072) http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/acc_Off.gif http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/tech_Off.gif http://www.leevalley.com/US/graphics/instr_Off.gif

$17.90

[Curt Putnam]

If you are going to spend in the $100 range, consider a Chef's Pro machine. The 3 stone job runs ~$125 and the two stone ~$80. They put on decent edge - worthy of the contempt with which my wife treats them. Couple minutes per knife and done.

[Archie England]

The Bester 1200 really does a great job on my wife's kitchen knives (plus in-laws, daughters, etc). It is the first and only stone that I need. I strop on leather afterward.

[Rick Whitehead]

I have all kinds of stones: oil stones, water stones, and diamond stones, but I keep a 1/2" diameter ceramic rod sharpener in the kitchen knife block to sharpen them with. It's handy, easy to use, and cleans up easily with scouring powder.
Rick W

[Stanley Covington]

I have asked a lot of professional chefs, and the men that make and sell them their knives, here in Japan what stones they use at work. It varies with the knife and the food to be prepped. But most use a 1000 to 1200 grit waterstone for final sharpening. Softer stones are clearly preferred to the harder stones used for sharpening woodworking tools.

Compared to woodworking tools, cooking knives are not that sharp. In fact, the saw-edge left by rougher grits is universally thought to be more efficient for prepping fish, meat, and veggies.

For the final polish on sashimi knives (yanagiba or takohiki) most professionals will keep a finer grit stone (i.e. 6000 grit stone) to use at the end of the day, but don't use it frequently during the day. The finer edge, while not universally employed by any means, is said to cut fish with less cellular distortion, making for tastier sashimi.

The best chefs, I am told, do not sharpen their knives except at the end of the day, but switch to sharp knives instead when one goes dull. I have also read that it is considered by some professional chefs a bad habit, or an indication of poor sharpening skills, to sharpen a knife more than once every few days. But I don't know this from expereince, only what have been told and have read.

Stan

[Dave Cav]

Well, since there wasn't any direct feedback about the Spyderco stones, but there does seem to be agreement that a somewhat rougher edge is better for kitchen knives, I went ahead and ordered the medium stone. It's back ordered on Amazon, so someone is buying them, but when it arrives I'll try to report in.

[george wilson]

Ian and others have hit the nail on the head. A micro toothed edge cuts best-except on some types of sushi. And,most kitchen knives do not have good enough steel to take and hold a really sharp edge for long.

An exception is my 6" Lee Valley Japanese laminated knife. It has a very thin layer of very high carbon steel sandwiched between outer layers of stainless steel. The carbon steel layer must not be even 1/64" thick. That knife was not very expensive. About $25-$35.00 at the time(I can't recall). But,it is an excellent knife that will get sharp as blazes. I heartily recommend it. You can spend big bucks on knives that probably aren't as good,or any bit better. They still sell it,I'm pretty sure. The outer layers have decorative patterns hammered on them,made by a hammer face with swirly patterns engraved upon it.

But,even that knife for whacking on a cutting board,now gets the rougher edge. I just got tired of giving kitchen knives the full sharpening treatment only to soon have them dulled. Toothed edge works just fine.

Let me say here that electric sharpeners are DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!! They leave a little wire edge on knives. This wire edge gets wiped off in your food. And,you DO NOT want to go eating stainless steel sharp wire edges. All of them (That I have tried) ought to be banned. Unfortunately,the powers that be do not know anything about sharpening.

AND,DO NOT BUT those CERAMIC COATED STEEL KNIVES. The micro thin ceramic coating flakes off into your food. You eat these ceramic razor blade pieces.

I made the mistake of buying a few of the black coated ceramic blades from Woodcraft Supply. They were razor sharp. But,when I noticed the first ceramic missing from the edge,I never will use them again. Use ONLY fully ceramic knives with NO STEEL CORE.

The trouble with ceramic knives is most can't sharpen them. I can,since I have diamond sharpening equipment. Most can't. When I am in the area where Harbor Freight is,I'll inspect their $9.00 ceramic knives,and buy a few. They are very sharp,and,IF INSPECTED AND SELECTED, I think as good as any other much more expensive ceramic knife. Harbor Freight ceramic knives used to have the sharp edge disappear about 1 1/2" from the tip of the knife. A flat edge was all that remained there. But,the last 2 I bought are sharp all the way to the tip. They have to be inspected and picked out,to be sure. But,for $9.00 you can't expect consistent quality. You can get a bargain if you know what you are doing. It is hard to see the edge on a white ceramic knife. You have to go by feel. They aren't the prettiest knives I ever saw,but most ceramic knives are ugly anyway.

That said,I now find just giving the Lee Valley,or other stainless knives a few strokes over the diamond stone,to be more convenient than resharpening ceramic knives.

My best kitchen knives are the ones I made several years ago from 100% High Speed Steel power hack saw blades. These are a bit hard to find as most power hacksaw blades just have their HSS teeth welded on. The rest of the blade is soft steel so they don't shatter. Check prospective blades by filing the back of the blade. If solid HSS,the file will not bite,but will skate off. I made a bread knife that has stayed very sharp for about 15 years. And it cuts like nothing else you ever saw!

[Mike Null]

I prefer the diamond stone (also for my frequently used pocket knife) as George mentioned earlier. I have some long ago experience in meat markets and it was standard to tune the knife edges frequently during the day with a steel. I have the ceramic "steel" and like it and we have expensive German knives but my wife treats them like they came from the dime store so sharpening may be a futile effort.

[george wilson]

Since you want feedback on Spyderco stones,I'll repeat what I have several times posted.

After experimenting with a large assortment of stones over the years,I have settled on this setup: I start with a diamond stone if the edge is dull enough to warrant it. Then,I use my black Spyderco ceramic stone,then the white. If I strop I use Lee Valley green buffing compound on a clean piece of MDF.

These ceramic stones will never dish like other stones. The ceramic is MANY times harder than anything else out there(save diamond,of course,which are not really "stones".)

I had to clean up my white stone when I got it. It was scrubbed for about an hour under a faucet with a diamond stone. It had some permanent "fuzz" left on the surface from being cast. And,that fuzz would NEVER wear off!!

Some buy the super fine white stone as it is supposed to have a better surface on it. I have not used one of those,just my regular white one,which came out before the super fine ones.

I have seen pictures of Spyderco stones with circular saw marks on them. They would take a good deal of diamond scouring to get smooth.

Once you get your white stone prepared(the black one did not need any scrubbing),you are set for many years of trouble free honing. The only thing ever needed from then on is cleaning the gray metal crud off the stones with scouring powder,or a touch up with the diamond stone,just to get the metal crud off.

I use water with a few drops of Dawn dish detergent in it. This is kept in an 8 oz. squeeze bottle. You can get these lab type bottles at Harbor Freight,though they are thinner than higher quality ones. They would work fine,though.

[Dave Cav]

Thanks, George; it was based on your previous reports that I purchased the Spyderco stone. I am looking forward to seeing how it works for me.

Just out of curiosity what are you doing with all of those Harbor Freight ceramic knives? About the only thing I buy at HF any more are the blue metal F-clamps, and the ten packs of CA glue, for the school shop.

[george wilson]

They are kitchen knives. We use them in conjunction with our regular steel knives.

[Matt Lau]

George, I have to thank you for leading me to the spyderco stones. I bought an UF from woodcraft that I checked flat one one of their fancy milled table saw tops.
If sharpens even junk steel.

Dave, It depends on your blade steel, but generally a 1000-1200 grit is ideal. Most Cantonese chefs use a cheap 2 sided carborundum (60-300 grit, If I remember right). My Japanese sushi chef friend loves his diamond stone for his stainless clad vg-10. Personally, I like ceramic for stainless. I like natural stones for carbon, semistainless, etc.

Personally, I've been switching to semistainless steel the last few years. My Heiji gyuto is sharper than any stainless knife that I've ever handled, and is easy to sharpen. I got disenchanted with carbon when I was using a crappy sabatier on a tomato--and the tomato started turning black! Most carbon is fairly good stuff though.


Oh, unrelated, but I highly recommend the Lee Valley Peasant chef knife in o1 steel. It's way better than most western knives, and is tougher than most japanese knives--especially for womanfolk that are scared of big pointy things in the kitchen--yet aren't afraid to Whack! on a plastic/marble cuttingboard/plate.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have used the Spyderco triangle stones for around 30 years, the same set. Like George mentions the edge they make may be over kill. The last I checked there was a diamond steel available which fits in the set too, although they may be pricey. I just have the brown, medium, and white ,fine, stone. I have round and eliptical diamond sharpening rods I bought to sharpen green woodworking tools with curved blades. The triangle stones work well on curved blades too and even do a good job of sharpening most serrated knives.

[Stan Suther]

Ditto on George's comments for Spyderco. I've been using them for many years. As an aside, in a pinch, you can sharpen kitchen knives on the back of any ceramic dinnerware that doesn't have a fired base edge- bottom of plates or cups. They will bring up the sharpness of somewhat dull knives just fine, and maybe hit them with the steel a few licks. I've tried that at vacation homes that had dull knives and no sharpener. That can save the day!

[Jim Koepke]

My kitchen stone is an extra fine diamond stone that has been epoxied to a piece of wood.

If the knives get real bad, they get a quick trip to the shop. They get nicks and other edge problems tended to on my shop stones. Most of the time they can go a year or more between being carried to the shop.

jtk

[ian maybury]

Must say i've more or less given up on sharpening kitchen knives unless i'm doing something myself.

I've seen 'herself' plugging away for heaven knows how long with a blunt knife. Offers of sharpening get turned down. Repeated offer of sharpening gets interpreted as criticism and gets rrrrrrred at - following by the above to prove the knife is just fine.

What do i know?

[Jim Koepke]

Must say i've more or less given up on sharpening kitchen knives unless i'm doing something myself.

I've seen 'herself' plugging away for heaven knows how long with a blunt knife. Offers of sharpening get turned down. Repeated offer of sharpening gets interpreted as criticism and gets rrrrrrred at - following by the above to prove the knife is just fine.

What do i know?

My wife was a little upset onetime after the most used knives were sharpened. At first she was frightened and said it was too sharp. Since she has just wanted a warning. When told there was mention of the knives being sharpened, she responded about not knowing that they were actually going to be "that sharp."

If she is afraid of sharp knives, then there may be no way around it. If the condition is from something else, maybe the way is to "find" a knife at a yard sale or whatever and introduce it in to the knife rotation.

Slicing tomatoes is where a sharp knife comes in handy.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

We've used one of these for as long as I can remember. Zero complaints. Fast and effective.

http://www.edgecraft.com/images/120at12x8x72.gif

[george wilson]

#1,Sabatiers are junk. VERY soft steel,highly over priced. I bought some years ago and can't even remember what happened to them. Turning tomatos black? That sounds pretty bizarre! I wouldn't EAT them!!!

#2,those electric sharpeners are dangerous,as mentioned. They can leave burrs on the edges of your knives. Burrs that will get wiped off into the food you are eating. Stainless steel burrs,anyone? Please look carefully at the edge your electric sharpener is making.

[Rob Luter]

Stainless Steel burrs do not sound very good. That said, I've never had an issue with them. The last stage of my sharpener is basically a strop that puts a micro bevel on the edge and knocks the burr off. In addition, I make it a point to clean the edge after sharpening using the end grain of a cutting board or something similar.

[Christian Castillo]

An Eze-Lap Fine - 600 is pretty awesome for knife maintenance, Spyderco Medium and Superfine if I feel like being obsessive, but an eze-lap 600 leaves a good enough edge.

[Steve H Graham]

All this work and expense!

You need two things. A cheap Chef's Choice non-electric diamond hone (or another brand), plus a steel or super-fine hone, such as the one made by DMT.

I am assuming your knives already have some kind of edge on them.

It will take you ten to fifteen seconds to put a shaving edge on a knife, and if that's not good enough, put in another ten seconds with the finer hone.

I do this, and when I do it right, my knives are like razors. I have a $10 Chinese cleaver from The Wok Shop, and after I sharpen it, I can hold a folded paper towel out and sweep through it in one motion. If that's not sharp enough for you, you must be an eye surgeon.

http://www.amazon.com/Chefs-Choice-10-Inch-Diamond-Sharpening/dp/B00004RKG1/ref=sr_1_12?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1434728486&sr=1-12&keywords=chef%27s+choice+hone

[Steve H Graham]

Also, I advise real cooks to stay away from Japanese knives. They are way too fragile. You can't even put them in the dishwasher. I gave away two Shuns for this reason. Someone put one in the dishwasher, and it came out with a big chip in the blade. They are junk.

My favorite knives are my Chinese cleavers and a Forschner chef's knife. I also use Mundial knives. All of these knives sharpen up fast, they're tough and cheap, the handles are nonslip...you just can't go wrong with these. The most expensive one was about $14.

I have a $200+ Masamoto cleaver. Looks real nice sitting in a drawer, but I would never use it. I consider it useless because of the risk of damaging it.

I will probably be burned at the stake now.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You can't even put them in the dishwasher.

I was told to never put my sharp knives in the dishwasher because it dulls them. Something about two hours of hot water and detergent isn't great for maintaining a knife's sharpness. This is ignoring things like what happens if the knife is knocked into other things that may dull it or it may damage other things (like the plastic racks). Also, it is pretty easy to cut yourself while reaching in to get the knife (same I reason I never toss a sharp knife into a tub of dish water.... easy to reach around in that water and be cut).

I have many other things that I also never run through the dishwasher after I had the dishwasher strip the finish off a wood handle. It was very good at getting things clean, but it seems that they can be harsh.

Wish I could remember who told me to not use the dishwasher for the knives.

[Brian Holcombe]

Also, I advise real cooks to stay away from Japanese knives. They are way too fragile. You can't even put them in the dishwasher. I gave away two Shuns for this reason. Someone put one in the dishwasher, and it came out with a big chip in the blade. They are junk.

My favorite knives are my Chinese cleavers and a Forschner chef's knife. I also use Mundial knives. All of these knives sharpen up fast, they're tough and cheap, the handles are nonslip...you just can't go wrong with these. The most expensive one was about $14.

I have a $200+ Masamoto cleaver. Looks real nice sitting in a drawer, but I would never use it. I consider it useless because of the risk of damaging it.

I will probably be burned at the stake now.

I'm fetching the lumber for the stake :p

All due respect to Shun, but you may find that they're low on the list for most users of Japanese knives.

I do not put knives in the dishwasher, many have wooden handles that would be destroyed, so the blades are rinsed and wiped clean. I use soap if cutting meats.

Japanese knives, just like Japanese tools are very specific to their purpose. You cannot hammer a paring chisel in the same way you cannot chop with a yanagiba. A chef would have a variety of knives for different purposes in the same way that we have different chisels for different purposes.

Western knives are just the same, but probably a bit more capable of being used improperly since they are heat treated to a lower degree and often have phenolic resin handles.

[Steve H Graham]

I agree about dulling the knives. Dishwashing detergent has an abrasive in it. To me, the convenience of using the dishwasher is well worth the few seconds of effort it takes to restore the edge. Hand-washing a drying a knife takes a couple of tedious minutes I could otherwise spend sitting on the couch.

Also, I don't have to wet my pants and deliver a lecture every time a guest borrows a knife.

I feel this way: you can concentrate on cooking and entertaining, or you can fall in love with your knives and be considered strange.

[Steve H Graham]

I'm fetching the lumber for the stake :p

All due respect to Shun, but you may find that they're low on the list for most users of Japanese knives.

I bought three of them a few years back. Back then, people were raving about them. The santoku chipped, the bird's beak knife was inferior to a $5 Forschner, and the cleaver was unbalanced, short, and clumsy. I bought some other Japanese knives--other brands--from the guy at the Japan chef knife site. I still have a nakiri and a chicken-boning knife, as well as the pricey cleaver mentioned above. The bird's beak knife may be in a drawer somewhere. I never use any of them. It's a hassle, and they don't really work that well.

I have told people the same thing you did, pretty much, explaining that you won't get the real high-end stuff at the mall. You wouldn't believe the yammering. It was as if I had egged the Popemobile. I guess when you have $1500 in knives that aren't particularly good, you have ample motivation for denial.

If I had unlimited money, plus slaves to wash my knives, I might want a few Japanese knives. No, probably not.

I have never seen anything that compares to my $10 cleaver. If you own only one kitchen knife, that should be it. It slices better than a chef's knife. You can use the side to peel garlic. It minces like...some sort of special mincey tool. You can tenderize meat with the back side. You can use it to transfer food from one place to another. And the edge is beyond belief. It's actually worth hand-washing.


Japanese knives, just like Japanese tools are very specific to their purpose. You cannot hammer a paring chisel in the same way you cannot chop with a yanagiba. A chef would have a variety of knives for different purposes in the same way that we have different chisels for different purposes.

I would put it another way. I would say they're not versatile.

Please make sure the lumber for the stake is highly figured and that it was cut with Lie-Nielsen tools.

[Joel Goodman]

It takes a few seconds to wash and dry a knife by hand -- I am not in that much of a hurry! In fact it saves time as the knives stay sharp. And of course a few are old school carbon steel....

[Brian Holcombe]

Highly figured....hmm, birds eye or curly?

I suppose if your dishwasher is hourly then use the dishwasher, but whatever you do don't use the machine under the countertop.

To each there own, you'll find the same thing with the tools here, some find them fiddly, some (such as myself) really enjoy them. Paying money for something doesnt change my opinion of it, I have one set of chisels that I paid alot for and waited a long time for....and dont use. They're pretty though, so I keep them (for now).

[Steve H Graham]

Now that I think about it, mesquite would be a good choice.

[Brian Holcombe]

LOL! Gallows humor I see.

[george wilson]

For Pete's sake!!! NEVER put sharp knives in a dish washer. Never use hot water to rinse a sharp knife. If you do,the microscopic edge will be dulled. Professional butchers never rinse their knives in hot water. I only use cold water and a sponge with a bit of detergent to get grease or oil off of my kitchen knives.

My favorite knife(other than the HSS knives I made from power hacksaw blades),is my Lee Valley 6" Japanese knife. It has a very thin layer of high carbon steel sandwiched between stainless steel outer layers. I think I mentioned this before. The whole blade is ionly 1/16" thick. It is NOT to be used for twisting,hacking bones,or any purpose other than normal,sensible food slicing. For it's intended purpose it is quite an excellent knife.

So are the ceramic knives,but they are brittle,and also must be used sensibly. My wife gave an expensive Kyocera ceramic knife to a (supposed) chef who she owed a favor to. The first thing he did was snap the blade off. Frankly,I was surprised that this guy was a chef.

You'd think he would have known better. I see no need to go paying very high prices for ceramic knives myself. They will eventually get dull,just like any other knife. It just takes longer. Then,you either cannot sharpen them yourself,or have to send them away to be sharpened. Even honing them on a diamond stone just seems to get you no where fast. Fortunately,I have a 200 RPM diamond honing machine that will sharpen mine,but it still takes some time. And ,I can't get them anywhere as sharp as a factory edge unless I make some special wheels and put super fine diamond dust on them. The edge I can get works fine,though. But,if my edges were gotten smooth as the factory edge,they would last longer. So,the Harbor Freight $9.00 ceramic knives work as well as any,and are made of the same ceramic. If the store were closer, I wouldn't even bother to sharpen mine after they get dull in some months' time.

Fortunately,my wife,being a craftsman also,is not afraid of sharp knives. She appreciates them. I have sharpened the kitchen knives for some of the women who worked for us,and they got quite scared to touch them. A real EEK!!! situation.One,I found out,didn't even use the knives herself. Her husband is a cook!:)

[Brian Holcombe]

keeping sharp knives is an incredibly rare thing for most households.

[Stanley Covington]

I can only agree with George about hot water and quality high-carbon knives. Dishwashers can get hot enough to actually draw the temper on a good knife. There are those here that think that the steel must become very hot to lose its temper, but when you are looking at the very thin edge of a sharp knife (talking microscopic level where the cutting is actually done) it does not take much heat. Certainly hot water will do damage, as will sharpening a knife on a dry stone.

A top-quality hand-forged Japanese knife is a pleasure to use, and easy to sharpen. I am not sure you can even buy such a knife in the States, though.

My wife is Japanese, an excellent cook, and loves sharp knives, but abuses them terribly, carelessly dulling and even chipping the edges through mistreatment. The softer stainless steel knives such as those made by Heckles and Global suit her perfectly because, while they dull quickly, they do not chip, and are easy to sharpen.

But when I sharpen all her knives, the first ones she reaches for are the high-quality hand-forged Japanese knives, and her Heckle laminated powdered metal blade, which is wonderfully sharp but easily chipped. For the next few weeks while those knives are dreadfully sharp, she cooks up a storm and feeds me very well indeed. As they get duller and she switches to the softer stainless knives, the quality of her cooking drops off, until after a few months, I find myself eating hotdogs for dinner. Time to sharpen Kazuko's knives!

I have stopped sharpening her pruning shears, or buying here new ones because once she gets a sharp shear in her little hands, she immediately begins cutting the holly heck out of everything in the yard, so that the trees are all limbless as high as she can reach, and shrubs are cut back to one stem alone. I guess its the samurai heritage in her bloodline.

She can't control herself.

Stan

[george wilson]

Some think that hot water dulling knife edges is an "Old wive's Tale"(Why must every myth be ascribed to old wives?:))

But,it is a fact. Hopefully those concerned will listen to Stanley and myself.

I have also resisted the powerful urge to put my handmade infill planes and back saws into my dishwasher!!!!:)

Why is falling in love with your knives any more strange than falling in love with your LN,LV,antique or other tools? Your vintage car(or even a new Jaguar?,Lexus,etc.) My neurologist is definitely in love with his knives,even coming to my house for sharpening lessons. And,I made him 2 HSS power hacksaw knives. No one thinks he is strange!! I am sure his wife appreciates his cooking.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have also resisted the powerful urge to put my handmade infill planes and back saws into my dishwasher!!!!:)

Hah!

If you dishwasher punches a timeclock.....then maybe they can handle the plane and saws :p

I plan to keep recycling this joke until you guys catch on.

[george wilson]

The powerful,fanatical,irrestible,mind altering urge. In they go HAHAHAHAHA.

[Brian Holcombe]

LOL, well......it will get out any lingering saw dust and wood shavings....

[Shawn Pixley]

I sharpen the knives at our our house. Generally, I take them up to the 6000 stone. Our knives are mixtures of fairly good quality (chef's knives at 100-150$ range). No knife is ever allowed in or near the dishwasher. I hate dull knives

LOML's favorite knife is the small Messermeister Fillet knife with a really thin blade (we have 3 good fish knives beyond a boat knife - sized depending upon the nature of the work (rough cleaning/filleting with a 10" blade for cleaning big fish, bone cutting - a single bevel Japanese knife with a thick blade, and a fine 6" kitchen fillet knife). I am still working on my damasquene Yanagiba.

[Steve H Graham]

I knew no one would believe me.

[george wilson]

In goes the LN miter plane,the brass shoulder "Nessie" plane. The NX60 WITH PM VII blade !!!!!! All of them,I say ALL AOOOHAAAAA!!!! And,I turn up the heat to VOLCANO HOT POT STERILIZING LAVA!!!!!

[Steve H Graham]

Interesting fact: one of the reasons why I gave in and tried Shuns is that their website said they were dishwasher-safe. I got in an online tussle with some Shun addicts, pointing out that they were way too wimpy for the dishwasher. The people I argued with said Shun had never said the knives could be put in a machine, but I confirmed the information on the Shun site. A week or two later, the dishwasher claim had been removed from the website.

What a coincidence!

[Steve H Graham]

Also, Alton Brown has no idea how to cook steak and should be banned from buying it.

I had to get that out.

[Brian Holcombe]

If your dishwasher is on your payroll it's safe for them to wash the knives....with cold water :p

Also, I agree about Alton.

[Steve H Graham]

I am trying to picture myself attempting to get bacon grease, butter, and beef fat off of a knife with cold water. No, the image is too painful. I must think of something else. I'm in my happy place...I'm in my happy place...

[Mike Null]

I do not agree that hot water dulls knife blades but that doesn't mean they should be washed in a dishwasher. Typically the high heat in the dishwasher comes from the heating element during the dry cycle and when it is heating water to temp for washing.

It is the temperature and moisture that destroys the handles but it is the high water pressure during the wash cycle, particularly on older dishwashers, that bangs the blades together and dulls the edges.

As far as I know there are no abrasives in dishwasher detergent else they would not be used for china and crystal.

I do not wash any knives in the dishwasher.

[Steve H Graham]

Dishwashers aren't recommended for china and crystal, because of the abrasion. If you put patterned china or decorated glassware in a dishwasher over and over, eventually, the decoration or pattern comes off. Ask me how I found out! Dishwashers also etch glass. You have to choose special detergents to avoid this.

To each his own. I was Googling, and I saw someone claim you can't resharpen a knife that has been in a dishwasher, so I put it to the test. I just put a razor edge on a cheap Mundial knife that has been through the dishwasher a hundred times. Twenty or thirty seconds of easy work. No scrubbing. No drying. The knife cost $26, and in my collection, that's expensive. I learned about Mundial by visiting professional kitchens with a chef friend.

Can something be impossible if it actually happens?

The poor lady I gave the Shuns to has to mail her delicate hothouse flowers to a sharpening company, in addition to washing by hand.

[george wilson]

Believe me,hot water WILL certainly dull your knives. I have spoken to professional butchers about this. The experienced ones will not use hot water on them. Perhaps the hick butchers at our local Farm Fresh might!:) Also,here's another you will not believe: Leaving files in hot Sunlight will dull them some.

Hot water will dull the MICROSCOPIC edge,but there is no reason why the knives cannot be resharpened to a new edge. Now,I don't know if ceramic knives are dulled by hot water,but I prefer to play it safe. Ceramic OUGHT to stand a lot more heat than steel. But,they certainly won't stand being juggled about in a dishwasher. Find out for yourselves on that one.

Believe these things about steel knives or dismiss them at your own cost!!

Another thing about using a dishwasher with very high hardness steel (especially Japanese) knives is the rustling about these knives can get inside the washer,which can readily chip hard(and therefore more brittle) blades.

There is a learning curve for many tools. And that includes knives. I would not be quick to dismiss what an old culture like the Japanese like to use for cutting food. There are rules that must be learned and adhered to,just as with any other tool.

And,you can wipe your greasy knives off with a paper towel before washing the remaining film with soapy cool water. I have had no problem getting my Japanese and other knives clean doing this. But,what the heck do I know about tools anyway?

[Steve H Graham]

Hot water will dull the MICROSCOPIC edge,but there is no reason why the knives cannot be resharpened to a new edge.

I have no reason to doubt that. As long as I can touch them up when they come out, I am happy.

[george wilson]

Well,if that is all it takes to make you happy,you are a lucky guy!:)

[Ken Kimbrell]

For sharpening a serrated knife has anyone watched this video on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dUb4z7JC8M)?

My knife skills are minimal at best, so his way may be an incorrect method, but it sounds reasonable to me?

[george wilson]

I sharpen the flat side of serrated knives to sharpen them. And,am careful to pull the serrations through end grain soft wood until every speck of burr is gotten off them.

[Jim Koepke]

I am trying to picture myself attempting to get bacon grease, butter, and beef fat off of a knife with cold water.

I am trying to picture myself in a position of being able to pay someone else to wash our dishes.

The washing of sharp knives is usually left to me. Occasionally Candy will wash a knife if she needs one and they haven't been washed. My tendency is to not use her kitchen knife. Washing in hot water isn't a problem to me. Many times they are finished being washed before the tap water gets up to temp. Then the cutting boards are washed.

Hot water dulling a knife is well known. Not sure if there has been any research done to correlate between steel types and water temperatures to figure out how much dullness is caused to what kind of knife with what temperature of water. Most likely they would have to first come up with a definition and way to measure sharpness. Then there would have to be a way to measure and describe its degradation.

With warm to hot tap water there is likely less dulling taking place than with super heated water capable of deforming steel. If one wants to ponder reality for a moment, a stream of cold water falling on a knife edge over time will cause wear. Before disagreeing with this, consider an infinite amount of water over an infinite amount of time.

There is at least one brand of dishwasher soap that will not be used in my house due to its abundance of abrasive content. They may have changed it since the last time it etched so much of my glassware. Why take a chance?

jtk

[george wilson]

And what brand of detergent is that,Jim?

[Tom Stenzel]

My wife uses a glass cutting board. I've pretty much given up keeping the knives sharp. Except for the Forgecraft carbon steel knife I keep hidden in the basement. I use that when I'm stuck in the kitchen. No, I don't use the glass cutting board either.

With my chemo my immune system went in the toilet. So everything in the kitchen now gets washed in hot water even if it's bad for it. Sorry guys, perfection won't be found at my house, now or possibly ever.

I always thought that it was the caustics in the automatic dishwashing detergent that wrecked knife steel and glassware. Abrasives in the detergent is news to me.

-Tom

[Steve H Graham]

What I read was that phosphates are abrasive, but apparently they were banned in 2010.

[george wilson]

Sorry to hear about that,Tom. We do what we have to. I wish you the best of luck.

[Tom Stenzel]

Appreciate the thoughts George. You sure haven't had it easy either. I appreciate that you're able to give advice here.

Though the hot water isn't the kitchen knive's worst enemy here at the house. The GLASS cutting board is the real problem. I've tried, even making a walnut/maple cutting board to use.

At first I didn't understand it, then found my MIL using one. Oddly enough her knives have problems too. It's something my wife grew up with- kitchen knives don't hold edges. It's the way the world is.

She's a wonderful person, I'm lucky to have her so I better just shut up!

-Tom

[george wilson]

You need to get her away from that glass cutting board. Tell her that microscopic shards of glass get into the food. That ought to turn her off of it! :) Make or buy her and end grain cutting board. We have an end grain bamboo board that works fine. End grain is better for keeping edges than side grain.

[Steve H Graham]

Don't feel bad. I found someone using one of my Japanese knives to scrape staining off of a glass stove top.

[Mel Fulks]

Good info here always gives help even beyond the immediate subject. I had no idea hot water would dull a knife . In using a straight razor I have been rinsing with hot water since that is needed for face. With cold water the edge stays sharper through shave, I never would have believed that possible.

[Brian Holcombe]

Don't feel bad. I found someone using one of my Japanese knives to scrape staining off of a glass stove top.

Increase the quality of training for staff members?

There are some requirements in life, those are;

- How to cook a steak

- How to light a cigar

- How to enjoy a whisky

- How to maintain your tools.

[Steve H Graham]

Personally, I would have used a router.

[Mike Null]

I've searched and haven't found any evidence that cleaning knives with hot water dulls the edge. For those who say yes, I'll go along with that but I wash mine by hand with whatever temperature water comes out of the faucet--but not cold.

Like most of you any special efforts would be futile anyway as OWMBO has no regard for how she uses or cleans them. (she doesn't put them in the dw though)

[Shawn Pixley]

Increase the quality of training for staff members?

There are some requirements in life, those are;

- How to cook a steak

- How to light a cigar

- How to enjoy a whisky

- How to maintain your tools.

How to cook fish. (Most treat fish incredibly discourtesously)

[Brian Holcombe]

Indeed! Add it to the list. :D

[Dave Cav]

The Spyderco medium stone finally showed up. It was out of stock (or something) at Amazon. First impression is that it's very smooth and flat, and a lot more "fine" than I expected for a medium stone. I put it to work on our kitchen knives, and it took quite a while to put an acceptable edge on any of them. It was obviously removing material from the edge, but it wasn't doing it very fast. I got all of the major knives reasonably sharp but I thought it took a longer than it should have, based on my experience with my Shapton stones, which, admittedly cut pretty fast.

Later on, I went out to the shop and dug out my ancient blue DMT medium diamond stone, and went to work on the steak knives (they're pretty decent knives for steak knives, not junk from Target or Wal-Mart). The DMT stone re-established the bevel and the edge rapidly, and then about 20 strokes on the Spyderco had them just about saving sharp, which is as sharp as steak knives need to be. I went back and re-sharpened two paring knives using the DMT first and then finishing with the Spyderco, and I think they're noticeably sharper than when I sharpened them with just the Spyderco alone. Since I rarely, if ever, use the DMT diamond stone in the shop any more, it'll stay in the kitchen with the Spyderco.