Something I don't understand

[Barry McFadden]

Just a question that I have. Why does anyone buy these lathes (Grizzly and others) that are made in China? It seems that I see post after post of people eagerly awaiting delivery of their lathe and then when they get it I see post after post of all the problems with it. Motor noise,Scratched up, bolts loose,motor hanging off, tool rest height no good, have to sand down the bed, and on and on. Same thing with bandsaws. I was looking for a larger bandsaw and went to Busy Bee Tools to check out an 18" Craftex bandsaw. Looked like a nice saw until I went home and read some reviews on it. Reports of the upper and lower wheels not lined up (had to shim them) and someone had to grind part of his saw to get something to fit properly. If I spend $1700.00 on a piece of machinery I really don't expect to have to re-manufacture it when I get it home to get it to work. I would love to get a bigger lathe and if I do I'll put out the extra money for one built in North America. I would love a Robust American Beauty if I can afford it one day but I would have no problem settling on one from Oneway either. Seems either choice would be far better than these things coming over from China.

[Dok Yager]

Barry: As far as I know be it Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, or Oliver, Laguna and others they are All made in China these days.

[Roger Chandler]

Yep.......a tricked out Robust American Beauty nudges up against $10k...........not everyone can afford that! I have turned on one that belongs to a friend.........it is a beautiful and sweet machine! I still may get one in the future!

I have also turned on 9 different 3520b units to date and several Jet 1642 evs, and some other lathes as well. Jet, Powermatic, Laguna, Busy Bee, Hare & Forbes Woodmaster [Australia], Baliegh, and others are all made by the manufacturer the Burt Group............for the respective vendors. Some change paint schemes, some have metric dimensions, some only sold here in America, have imperial dimensions only.............but all made in China/Taiwan ROC . Many interchangeable parts on all these units.

So performance is very similar and value is also important........I get both in the G0766....that is the why! ;)

[Dennis Collier]

Have you priced an American made machine with the same specs as the Grizzly? I cant speak for anyone but myself but I have a wife that stays home with our three kids. I have a pretty good job and its still a stretch for me to buy anything, especially a $1700 lathe, let alone one that cost over 8 grand. Not to mention that Id put Grizzly customer service up against any tool company in the world an that goes a long way with me. Yeah, my lathe has a few dings from shipping. Grizzly will make it right. Yeah, my tool rest is too tall. Grizzly will make it right. Beyond that, I love it and I don't understand how owning a machine that cost 4 or 5 times that would make me happier. It would however mean that my son didn't get to play on his travel baseball team or that my daughter didn't get to attend her dance classes, etc, etc, etc. because dad had to have a really expensive machine that does the same thing as one he could have ordered from Grizzly for 20% of the cost. Those are sacrifices Im not willing to make. Maybe when Im retired and my kids are grown an $8000 machine will make since. Right now it dosnt.

[hu lowery]

Just a question that I have. Why does anyone buy these lathes (Grizzly and others) that are made in China? It seems that I see post after post of people eagerly awaiting delivery of their lathe and then when they get it I see post after post of all the problems with it. Motor noise,Scratched up, bolts loose,motor hanging off, tool rest height no good, have to sand down the bed, and on and on. Same thing with bandsaws. I was looking for a larger bandsaw and went to Busy Bee Tools to check out an 18" Craftex bandsaw. Looked like a nice saw until I went home and read some reviews on it. Reports of the upper and lower wheels not lined up (had to shim them) and someone had to grind part of his saw to get something to fit properly. If I spend $1700.00 on a piece of machinery I really don't expect to have to re-manufacture it when I get it home to get it to work. I would love to get a bigger lathe and if I do I'll put out the extra money for one built in North America. I would love a Robust American Beauty if I can afford it one day but I would have no problem settling on one from Oneway either. Seems either choice would be far better than these things coming over from China.



Barry,

I would much prefer not to buy from china. Unfortunately the car in your driveway, the TV you watch, this computer you are sitting in front of, all have components made in china. When I compared a mill I wanted the better quality chinese unit I looked at was four thousand and change. The old school brand name that I wanted to buy was over eighteen thousand. It was made in taiwan, no doubt using chinese components.

The deal for me is simple, as you say "one day" that often never comes, or right now today. I routinely blueprint much of what I buy regardless of where it is made anyway. Tweaking and tuning to make the machine suit me a little better is routine.

I haven't looked where my mostly junk lathe I am using now was made, a Craftsman, but I have fully deburred the bed, the tailstock, the banjo, both morse two tapers, modified the drive, repaired the same drive countless times, replaced the plates under the bed that the locks for the tailstock and banjo use for lock-up, I'm sure a bunch more that doesn't come to mind at the moment. Oh yeah, replaced the screw that let the back cover flip down with Velcro since the cover had to be flipped down multiple times a day.

Many of my other tools and equipment have been modified a little or a lot too, just the way I roll. Best for the average guy or acceptable may not suit me. The 766's would turn wood just fine like they come from the factory for the most part, tweaking them is just in the US hot rodder tradition! Much as I would love the AB, when it is trimmed out to suit me I can buy a half dozen of these lathes with money left over for what the American Beauty cost me. A lot of what I gained would be pride of ownership. May someday, maybe one day . . . . . Right now the American Beauty is a dream, the 766 is reality.

Hu

[Reed Gray]

The sad thing about the expense of this country is that most can't afford anything that is made here, and we did it to ourselves. The sad thing about China is that though they can produce products as fine as any body else in the world, so much of what comes from there is very low quality. Strange that people will pay for it. Wish I had an answer to fix things....

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Beyond that, I love it and I don't understand how owning a machine that cost 4 or 5 times that would make me happier.

Have you turned on a Robust American Beauty? It's REAL nice. I can't afford one either, but they are REAL nice. I'd be MUCH happier if I owned one.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Barry: As far as I know be it Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, or Oliver, Laguna and others they are All made in China these days.

Dok.....That's not quite true.

There is a difference between Taiwan (ROC) and China (PRC). They are separate countries and separate governments though each claims they are the rightful government of the other country.


Some tools are made in Taiwan......some tools made in China.........some are made in factories with an ISO quality system.

[John Spitters]

You can't blame China or Taiwan for the low quality tools that we are buying here in North America, if any one is to blame for the shortcomings of these products blame it on the importers / distributors, and the buying public, as already mentioned time and again, China etc. can build to excellent quality standards, but they will also build to any standard asked of them to fit within a given price range that we the North American populous will gobble up. As I type this I'm in Beijing having just travelled 1200 kilometers this morning from Xi'an to Beijing on their high speed train system in just over 4 hrs. They are I believe at the top of the game when it comes to their train system, it's quite something to experience. And no I'm not pro China but let's face it, put the blame where it truely belongs.

[Michelle Rich]

Dennis says it all & very well. John Spitters says it well too. We all have choices and we all have priorities..to ask why one would buy a 1700.00 machine over an 8,000.00 machine is like asking me why I don't drive a lamborghinni (how does one spell that??) vs. my F150 4x4 ? for myself it is because i can't afford a sports car, I can't get in & out of one at my advanced age, and I live in an area where a 4x4 is a necessity not a trendy cool thing to own. But like machines, a lot of my USA car was made in other countries and put together here in the US

[charlie knighton]

just seems to me that this grizzly is sort of the first machine since oil/steel/copper etc. price broke.....I keep an inventory with price of tools for the state of Virginia......seems like we are getting back to the 2008 prices.......seems like we should see some of the major established brands machines come down.......I have not noticed that the sale prices are any better than usual......anybody else

[Roger Chandler]

Dok.....That's not quite true.

There is a difference between Taiwan (ROC) and China (PRC). They are separate countries and separate governments though each claims they are the rightful government of the other country.


Some tools are made in Taiwan......some tools made in China.........some are made in factories that are supposed to be made in factories with an ISO quality system.

Ken is right about the Taiwan and China thing...............this Grizzly G0766 lathe is made in an ISO 9001 certified factory, thus the reason I suspect of the refined castings and grinding of the bed ways and has the most important parts, the motor and inverter from Taiwan........the same that is on the Powermatics and Jets from Delta Electronics, only they upgraded the inverter to an "M" series, which is a sensorless vector micro drive especially suited to the 3 phase motor to give it smooth torque and power.

Regarding the 3 phase motor, Grizzly changed from a D/C motor on the 18/47 G0698 like I had, to its current 3 phase on the G0733 18/47 updated version............on this new G0766, they went even further with a 3 hp, 3 phase motor. Here is what Grizzly says about that transition and how it benefits us lathe owners:

We changed from a (brushless) DC motor to a 3-phase AC motor for several reasons. It's quieter, electrically more efficient, and provides smoother power output - especially at slower speeds. The DC motor design can be a bit choppy at slower speeds, and while most users wouldn't notice this, we decided it was worth the upgrade. Also, 3-phase AC motors are the most reliable motor design that there is. So the change improves both the performance and reliability of an already outstanding heavy-duty wood lathe.

[carl mesaros]

Roger I must disagree with your statement regarding the brushless DC motor. My new Laguna 2436 has a 3 hp brushless DC motor that is ultra quiet, cool running and has amazing torque at low rpms. I have found little need to move the drive belt to the low side. I am comparing this lathe to my Jet 1-1/2 hp 1642, which was a great lathe but no comparison to the Laguna.. The cooling fan is far louder than the motor on my lathe. The most annoying feature is the fan never shuts off unless the machine is unplugged.


Ken is right about the Taiwan and China thing...............this Grizzly G0766 lathe is made in an ISO 9001 certified factory, thus the reason I suspect of the refined castings and grinding of the bed ways and has the most important parts, the motor and inverter from Taiwan........the same that is on the Powermatics and Jets from Delta Electronics, only they upgraded the inverter to an "M" series, which is a sensorless vector micro drive especially suited to the 3 phase motor to give it smooth torque and power.

Regarding the 3 phase motor, Grizzly changed from a D/C motor on the 18/47 G0698 like I had, to its current 3 phase on the G0733 18/47 updated version............on this new G0766, they went even further with a 3 hp, 3 phase motor. Here is what Grizzly says about that transition and how it benefits us lathe owners:

We changed from a (brushless) DC motor to a 3-phase AC motor for several reasons. It's quieter, electrically more efficient, and provides smoother power output - especially at slower speeds. The DC motor design can be a bit choppy at slower speeds, and while most users wouldn't notice this, we decided it was worth the upgrade. Also, 3-phase AC motors are the most reliable motor design that there is. So the change improves both the performance and reliability of an already outstanding heavy-duty wood lathe.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Barry, it sounds like you are a good candidate for vintage machinery. New is not the only option, and if you are going to put work into a machine why not one built to last generations. This is value IMHO. The challenge with lathes is that turning preferences have changed a bit from mostly spindle turning to more bowl turning. So most of the older lathes have less swing than popular new lathes. Many are fine as-is, some can be outfitted with riser blocks, and then there are some pretty incredible patternmaker lathes available at the cost of a new lathe. When it's common to find loose bolts in the crate on a new machine there is a high potential for other unseen shortcuts. That is what would concern me most regardless of manufacturer. The comment that China is capable of manufacturing to the highest levels is dead on. The Foxcon plant that makes products for Apple also makes things of far lesser quality for others. It's all about the specifications and requirements.

[David C. Roseman]

After seeing Barry's post this morning, I figured I should pop some popcorn before settling down to read the responses. Then I saw all the utterly well-reasoned, dispassionate replies and knew there would be no such excitement in this thread. At least yet. :) Good thread!

[Barry McFadden]

Thanks guys for the reply's. Essentially we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford American made goods. Every week you read about someone going on strike demanding top wages, top benefits, top perks.. and in order for companies to provide that, the prices go out of reach for the average North American. Oh well..... I guess I'll just keep dreaming about my American Beauty...and keep buying lottery tickets....

[Barry McFadden]

Barry, it sounds like you are a good candidate for vintage machinery. New is not the only option, and if you are going to put work into a machine why not one built to last generations. This is value IMHO. The challenge with lathes is that turning preferences have changed a bit from mostly spindle turning to more bowl turning. So most of the older lathes have less swing than popular new lathes. Many are fine as-is, some can be outfitted with riser blocks, and then there are some pretty incredible patternmaker lathes available at the cost of a new lathe. When it's common to find loose bolts in the crate on a new machine there is a high potential for other unseen shortcuts. That is what would concern me most regardless of manufacturer. The comment that China is capable of manufacturing to the highest levels is dead on. The Foxcon plant that makes products for Apple also makes things of far lesser quality for others. It's all about the specifications and requirements.


You're right Doug about the vintage machinery..... I have a Record/Coronet lathe that I bought about 30 years ago (I think it was around $1200.00 back then). It is made in the U.K. and still runs like new. I had some minor vibration recently which I got rid of with a bit of oil and a cleaning. I have never had to change a part on it. The belt and bearings have never given any trouble. It has a 12" swing over the bed but I can swivel the motor towards the front and do a 30" bowl although I haven't done one near that size yet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Barry,

Did you buy the Record/Coronet new or used? What would that $1200 be worth today? I'll bet it would be a lot more than the $1700 cost of the new Grizzly lathe!

Car prices have nearly tripled in that 30 years. Homes in our area have more than tripled. I would think your $1200 Coronet lathe would could cost +$3600 in 2015 dollars.

You can't shop for a tool with low price as a major factor and expect quality equal to equipment that cost 2-7 times more. It's a naïve, at best and an unreasonable expectation. No offense to anyone. $1700 for a Grizzly lathe compared to a +$10,000 American-made Robust or Canadian-made Oneway.....well $1700 is chump change in comparison. It is unreasonable to think you are going to get the same quality.

There is no magic wand for manufacturers in China that allows them to sell to importers and bring equal quality equipment to the Americas for a small fractional price. The magic wand doesn't exist. You can get GREAT quality from Taiwan or China but you have to pay for it. Tighter specifications, more quality inspections, more rejects at the factory for quality shortcomings all cost money. There are no secrets for high quality manufacturing. It's more expensive.

Grizzly and similar competitors are manufactured and sold to satisfy a different market,a different price range, than the Oneways, Robust etc. Most of us who buy these product lines either couldn't afford to buy American, Canadian or European made products or can afford it but can't justify the additional expense. Most of us who buy tools in this price range are hobbyists not professionals.

Often the most noticeable difference between the more expensive equipment and the lessor expensive equipment is fit and finish. Fit and finish to me has less value than most. My tools are meant to be used. I don't have a tool museum, I have an amateur's woodworking shop where I try to improve my skills on a regular basis. I live in an arid climate so rust isn't a problem unless I spill coffee on one of my machines. Some people place more importance on fit and finish. That's fine but fit and finish is the most noticeable differences between the high end and low end market tools.

There are often other less noticeable differences. Higher quality, larger, different type bearings are not as readily noticeable but can be there. A better quality, better insulated motor is another sleeper that often goes unnoticed when we giddily read "3 HP- 3 phase" motor. Better quality grinding on machined cast iron surfaces can be another hidden difference. NOTE- I'm not saying this is true about any specific product. These are just potential hidden differences that cost more, aren't as readily noticeable but are reflected in a higher price.

To those who always say "Buy old iron".....some people want to spend their time woodworking not spend days, weeks and months searching for parts and fixing tools. Frankly, some people don't have the skills to do it. Professionally, I repaired equipment from radar to MR scanners for over 40 years. On my time, I want to work wood. Beyond that, I watch the local Craigslist and have yet to see used tools offered at a reasonable price.

Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck. I have a G0490X jointer and a Grizzly combination disk/OSS sander. The fit and finish isn't the greatest but they both perform well. I also have European-made tools, American-made tools and other Taiwan-made tools. Grizzly has a history of good customer service within the manner that they operate their business. Your machine may arrive with a problem but they will deliver the parts necessary to remedy the situation with you providing the labor. Buyers need to be aware of that up front. And yet, I would guess a lot more of their machines deliver with no problems otherwise they wouldn't still be in business. Their tools are IMO a great bang for the buck.

Finally, so much of what seems to make a tool better is subjective. Turning on a PM-3520B may not be a good experience for you and yet, be very pleasurable for me. But, it's subjective. It's a matter of personal taste, a matter of personal opinion. There is no right or wrong. There is no morale high ground whether you buy a used machine, a new American made machine or a Grizzly made in Taiwan. The only thing important is that you are satisfied that you got your money's worth when you bought your machine and you enjoy using it.

And now I retire to my shop to continue building the table top for the new outfeed table for my table saw.

[Barry McFadden]

Ken.... I bought the lathe new at a woodworking show....

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Essentially we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford American made goods. Every week you read about someone going on strike demanding top wages, top benefits, top perks.. and in order for companies to provide that, the prices go out of reach for the average North American.....
Barry: I've worked for the last 30+ years as a marketing consultant to US manufacturers, and I can tell you that it's not labor that drives prices for domestic manufacturers. The reason North Americans can't afford American made goods has much more to do with the lack of expansion of pay, not that it is out of control. Real wages have been stagnant in this country for well over a decade now.The basic problem is the shareholder mentality that is rampant - the idea that we need to reward investors first. Investors should be way down the line after making certain the product quality is high and the workforce is paid. As long as CEO remuneration is tied to shareholder return the problem will only get worse.
American manufacturing only gets better and better. It is the markets that need to be strengthened. There is no competition in the quality of the product, so imports compete on price alone and let quality suffer. But as long as the buying public is underpaid for their labor the low quality, low price goods will dominate. Labor and demand are linked.

[hu lowery]

The high end factories in china are paying under a dollar an hour, overtime and all. That is where a big chunk of our savings comes from. I suspect per unit percentage profit is higher all the way from manufacturer forward for made in china machines. The big savings are labor at less than one thirtieth of the cost of US labor, probably less than one fiftieth when all benefits and the cost per hour on the social system is calculated.

Another huge savings is material. As a general statement the material can be much lower quality even when claimed to be the identical alloy and heat treat. I don't know just how this comes to be, would be importers often find this out the hard way.

Something to know about ISO 9001, it has nothing to do with manufacturing quality. All it covers is the documentation of how something is made. If you are making something top quality, it nicely documents how that is made start to finish. If you are making crapola, it nicely documents how that is made start to finish.

My old light duty J head Bridgeport mill was awesome. Made in Bridgeport Conneticut best I recall it happened to be the same age I am and in far better shape. Everything on the machine was adjustable and once everything was tightened up and the adjusted out the machine worked to the same precision as the day it was made, maybe better because I placed far greater demands on precision than were required when it was new. This light duty machine is solider made than many machines that are supposed to hold up in a production environment today.

As someone else has mentioned, our needs have changed. Much of the old machinery needed to do what we want to do today is far larger than today's machine. It also uses a large three phase motor and large VFD's aren't cheap. Finally that old iron gains a lot of it's quality from huge amounts of deadening mass. A machine that may weigh a thousand pounds built today might easily weigh four to six thousand pounds if it was built 75-100 years ago. Takes up more space, needs a solider foundation under it, and it is harder to get in place.

In many ways I wish I could turn back the hands of time fifty or seventy-five years, but in truth I remember life fifty years ago and there were a lot of things that weren't so wonderful too.

People change, the world changes.

Hu

[Rick Gibson]

I retired 12 years ago taking early retirement when the company I worked for offered I buyout package I couldn't refuse. The company pension and govt. pensions pay the bills but with the way energy and food prices are rising who knows for how long. I took up woodworking as a hobby after I retired and I suspect for many others here it is a hobby. When I started I bought a shop full of Busy Bee power tools. 1. I didn't know any better and 2. they were the only place within reasonable driving distance where I could walk in pick out what I wanted and take it home. All the larger power tools came unassembled in boxes and I was able to carry the pieces into my basement shop where I took the time to assemble them and set them up properly and they have served me well for 12 years now. I started turning about 5 years ago and not knowing how well I was going to like it bought a small Delta lathe. Worked great for pens and other small items but I quickly found out that the slowest speed was to fast for an out of balance bowl blank and it was pretty limited in the size bowl I could make. I wanted a larger lathe and it had to have variable speed so I started saving my nickels. (Have to save nickels in Canada they got rid of the penny) Other more important things kept getting in the way and it took over a year and I finally had enough to get the Busy Bee CX802, at the time it was on sale for $600 less than they are asking now. If I had held out for a Oneway, AB, or Robust I still wouldn't have a large lathe.
That being said there are things I will not compromise on, food being one of them. If it says produce of China it stays on the shelf. Household items like fans etc. if there is a Canadian or American made product I have and will pay double if need be.

[Keith Outten]

I remember a time when the only source available to purchase hobby woodworking machines was Sears. Every machine I owned when I started woodworking was a Craftsman model, there were no other machines available that I could find that a hobby woodworker could afford. When I found out about Grizzly Tools (from their first catalog) I ordered their 15" planner, it was a thousand dollars less in price than the 15" Delta planner of the day. Over the course of several years all my Craftsman machines were replaced from Grizzly catalogs. I still own my Grizzly planner today, the machine has been an amazing workhorse.

Most of the people who complain about foreign machines would not be woodworkers if not for imported machines. American manufacturers were never going to reduce their prices and for whatever reason they haven't to this day. Most are long gone from the marketplace. It's my opinion that the loss of American manufacturers is not because of their prices or their cost to manufacture and certainly not because of imported machines. The imports simply allowed hobby woodworking to flourish and grow simply because the lower cost opened the doors for those who would never have had the chance otherwise.

[Ryan Mooney]

Barry,

Did you buy the Record/Coronet new or used? What would that $1200 be worth today? I'll bet it would be a lot more than the $1700 cost of the new Grizzly lathe!


About $2,700 in the US according to the government published inflation numbers. So yes, a fair bit more than the new Grizzly is running.

At $1700 for a lathe with these specs I'm simply amazed that it exists at all and a little paint cleanup and tightening a few bolts seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff (the tool rest post would make me a smidge grumpy but I know of folks who've had to do a whole lot more than that on $100k construction equipment so... yeah..).

My new 3250 was a lot more than that, was also made in Taiwan|China (differentiating is sometimes challenging unless you want to start examining the sourcing of every single part) and had a few things I was not 100% pleased with (notable the one pulley had some rough spots/apparent casting flaws - but didn't seem to matter functionally so I left it). However it runs well, and has made a whole lot of stuff so I didn't get to upset about it.

[Robert Engel]

Essentially we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford American made goods. Every week you read about someone going on strike demanding top wages, top benefits, top perks.. and in order for companies to provide that, the prices go out of reach for the average North American. Oh well..... I guess I'll just keep dreaming about my American Beauty...and keep buying lottery tickets....There was a time in this country when everything was made in the USA and anything made in Japan was junk. Craftsman tools build their reputation on it as did lots of other companies.

What has happened is workers rights, regulation, taxation IOW government intrusion into business, and the result was what we've got. Businesses forced to go overseas in order to stay in business. Along with that comes the difficulties in maintaining quality product in a foreign country with different work ethics, standards of work, etc.

But business isn't innocent either. China CAN make decent steel, but....

And the tools made in Taiwan are not so bad, are they?

Bottom line is how else are we going to afford to live now that the government takes 1/2 our wages and redistributes it to the other 1/2 who don't/won't/can't find work?

[roger oldre]

I have brought up some thoughts in other threads concerning quality equipment. I read through this thread and decided to wade in. in some cases the statement can be made "you get what you pay for" BUT that doesn't apply to MOST of the complaints about equipment. A flawless bedway surface compared to a bedway with some sand pits or unevenness has not one bit of effect on the outcome of a piece that one turns on a wood lathe. I also agree that to purchase something and then spend more time complaining about it rather than useing it is pretty dumb as well. send it back and wait till you can afford what you think is better rather than being an eore. If YOU haven't the skill to turn out a quality piece dont try to blame the machine! A wood lathe is a VERY simple piece of equipment but yet few seem to understand it. AC,DC, Inverter drives, centrifugal speed regulators, pulley arrangements even the typ of belt make subtle diferances from one machine to the next. Even it the same batch there can be difference from a bad capacitor or IGBT that will make a difference. If you buy a machine to look at and admire buy the most expensive most sought after machine and make sure that there is enough room for chairs so when others come over they can sit around and admire it over a cup of coffee or a beer whatever the case might be. If you are buying a machine to use for the enjoyment of the art it doesent make any diferance if the paint is scatched or there are a couple sand pits in the casting or for ALMOST all cases if the tailstock doesn't line up!! american made overpriced equipment or cheap imports are the choices complaining about the quality or cost changes nothing. IF we paid a higher wage across the board it would not make it possible for more to buy things, the prices would go up to equalize the same sales point. Thats what market analysts are for.

I like to turn wood. the other day my friends son got a wood lathe he is 16. he was excited until he got a couple catches. he must have been reading some posts in wood turning threads cause it was the lathes fault lol. it was to light, didn't have enough power, was the wrong color and came from China. I asked if I could show him a couple things.....suddenly he has a smile on his face loves to turn and the machine is "just fine".

[Marvin Hasenak]

Blame the Chinese, but it is the American companies that provide the specs and all of the other requirements to the Chinese manufacturers. Even down to the paint colors and the logos, it is the American companies that are setting the "standards" we are getting.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Roger I must disagree with your statement regarding the brushless DC motor. My new Laguna 2436 has a 3 hp brushless DC motor that is ultra quiet, cool running and has amazing torque at low rpms. I have found little need to move the drive belt to the low side. I am comparing this lathe to my Jet 1-1/2 hp 1642, which was a great lathe but no comparison to the Laguna.. The cooling fan is far louder than the motor on my lathe. The most annoying feature is the fan never shuts off unless the machine is unplugged.

Carl, you can disagree, But you are also wrong. It's a simple fact of motor design. Firms use DC motors for "variable" speed based simply on cost. A DC motor, and controller, is cheaper then a variable speed AC motor, and controller.
Also three-phase AC motor simply provides more power, over a broader range of speeds, then a DC motor.
Even then, in-order to provide power across the entire speed range we turners use, the most lathe manufacturers ends up using two, three, etc speed ranges with pulleys.

Part of why the DVR motor (used in Teknatool lathes and ShopSmith-Mark7) can provide full power from 100 to 4000 rpms is it's unique use of 24 "phases" (it's not really 24 phases, but.... the DVR is a very interesting motor).

By way of background, I have a BS EE and worked for many years as the Lead Engineer for the US Navy in a large motor rebuild/repair shop (as in motors up to 1000 HP)

[carl mesaros]

Carl, you can disagree, But you are also wrong. It's a simple fact of motor design. Firms use DC motors for "variable" speed based simply on cost. A DC motor, and controller, is cheaper then a variable speed AC motor, and controller.
Also three-phase AC motor simply provides more power, over a broader range of speeds, then a DC motor.
Even then, in-order to provide power across the entire speed range we turners use, the most lathe manufacturers ends up using two, three, etc speed ranges with pulleys.

Part of why the DVR motor (used in Teknatool lathes and ShopSmith-Mark7) can provide full power from 100 to 4000 rpms is it's unique use of 24 "phases" (it's not really 24 phases, but.... the DVR is a very interesting motor).

By way of background, I have a BS EE and worked for many years as the Lead Engineer for the US Navy in a large motor rebuild/repair shop (as in motors up to 1000 HP)

Thank you Ralph for the information and it truly sounds like you know what your talking about. The only information I can supply is my own experience with my new 3 hp Laguna 2436 vs my old Jet 1642. The motor on the 2436 is whisper quiet and runs much much cooler than my Jet. Also the power at bowl roughing speeds (400 RPM) is amazing. If the 3 hp AC motor is more powererful than mine it must be awesome.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Blame the Chinese, but it is the American companies that provide the specs and all of the other requirements to the Chinese manufacturers. Even down to the paint colors and the logos, it is the American companies that are setting the "standards" we are getting.


And it is the price point that the American consumer can afford or is willing to pay that determines what specifications the American companies will specify. Having a higher quality, more expensive piece of equipment that the consumer can't afford taking up room on the showroom floor doesn't provide a profit. In fact, companies pay taxes on inventory.

Again...you have to remember that most of us at this website are hobbyists. If I was a professional woodworker, I would sing a different tune!


There are many factors that caused American companies to use offshore manufacturing to produce their products........tax laws......cost of labor........environmental regulations.....cost of materials... energy costs, and other elements caused it to be cheaper to manufacture products overseas.

The tools we are discussing are meant for a different price range....they cater to those who wouldn't justify or couldn't afford a North American manufactured product. Look at General, CA. To compete in the same price range, they adapted and presented the General International brand of tools.

When tools were still being manufactured in this country, the market became stagnant. There weren't enough people who could afford tools that cost as much as those made here. So, in an effort to keep the company alive, companies began using offshore manufacturing. The resultant cheaper products allowed a larger group of people to afford the tools they couldn't afford when the only option was more expensive US manufactured products.

And buying these products is good for the local economy. Take me for example. I would never have hired a local contractor($16,000) to build an empty shell for my standalone woodworking shop if I had to buy only higher priced US made tools. While I might be able to afford the more expensive tools, I wouldn't find it justifiable for a hobby. The contractor wouldn't have gotten the money. The local lumberyard wouldn't have made a profit. The local suppliers where I bought all the materials to finish the shop wouldn't have made a profit and I would have been tens-of-thousands of dollars $$$$$ richer today.

The reasons that this country drifted away from a manufacturing-based economy is more complex than most people realize. It doesn't matter where a product is made. If nobody can afford it, it won't sell or the seller will have to sell it at a loss. Either way, the company isn't profitable and eventually goes out of business.

[roger oldre]

You hit the nail squarely on the head Ken!

[gary arnold]

Thanks Ken!.........I agree 100%.

[Barry McFadden]

. A flawless bedway surface compared to a bedway with some sand pits or unevenness has not one bit of effect on the outcome of a piece that one turns on a wood lathe. . If you are buying a machine to use for the enjoyment of the art it doesent make any diferance if the paint is scatched or there are a couple sand pits in the casting or for ALMOST all cases if the tailstock doesn't line up!!
".

Have to disagree on this point Roger....If you're putting out a thousand plus dollars for a piece of equipment you have a reasonable expectation that it is put together properly and looks like professionals made it. If you bought a new car because you like to travel is it ok if the paint is scratched and the hood doesn't line up and there is a ding or two in the door?.... I have a feeling that would not be acceptable and neither should it be acceptable in a lathe..

[Ryan Mooney]

For comparison here's Northfields price list (which is mostly US made), you won't find a bandsaw in anywhere close to the price range of the Rikon you referenced aboce. I would of course expect them to be commensurately better, but if this class of machine was my only choice its a fair bet that I'd never have a bandsaw either.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB-2014.pdf

Frankly your expectations don't really seem reasonable from my perspective. As you've noted you most certainly CAN buy a machine that meets your stated quality expectations but it will cost around 5x the price. for people that can afford that, super! fantastic! awesome! For the rest of us we need to temper our expectations somewhat and if we have to do a few tweaks to it, then that's part of the cost of buying a cheaper machine.

[Barry McFadden]

If you buy a Ford Focus instead of a Corvette should you expect the Ford to have scratches and dings on it?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Have to disagree on this point Roger....If you're putting out a thousand plus dollars for a piece of equipment you have a reasonable expectation that it is put together properly and looks like professionals made it. If you bought a new car because you like to travel is it ok if the paint is scratched and the hood doesn't line up and there is a ding or two in the door?.... I have a feeling that would not be acceptable and neither should it be acceptable in a lathe..

Barry,

You aren't comparing products in the same price range. If you spend the same amount of money on a lathe as you spend on a new car, then surely you could rightfully expect a perfect paint job. Surely you don't shop at the Dollar Store and expect Macey's quality?

Adjusted for inflation, your lathe today would cost $2700. Name one British, Canadian or US manufactured lathe with quality and specifications equal to your lathe that is available new on today's market.

Name it.

If you want the highest quality, you can get it but you will pay for it...... It will cost 6-8 times the $1700 you keep wanting to point out. Quality costs.

Grizzly fits a specific niche in the market. That company has done so since it's entry into the business world. The consumer must be aware how Grizzly conducts their business and what the expectations are in the event of a warrantee situation. For the money, Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If you buy a Ford Focus instead of a Corvette should you expect the Ford to have scratches and dings on it?

No but if it did, Ford would make it right and Grizzly will make it right.

Give it up Barry.....name one lathe made in Europe or North America that can be bought for $1700 or $2700 for that matter ......

[Roger Chandler]

Just to answer a point in this discussion as it has evolved..........the fit and finish and machining on the G0766 unit I have is very good. What little disruption to that milled bed surface was caused by the loose conditions inside the crate, and as Ken has so ably stated, it was likely caused by that trip over the ocean on that ship.

With a few passes of 600 grit, the bed looks factory new now.........and I am a happy camper at this point. At this point I also believe that the manufacturer got the big, most important things right on this lathe......size of the lathe, motor/inverter combination and features...........it is the small things like the crating and tool rest that are problematic and can easily be solved and then we have what. at this point, I believe to believe to be a fine unit.

[Reed Gray]

The foreign companies don't have the same overhead of the US companies like health insurance, unions, lawyers, and shop safety conditions. Some deal with it some, but not nearly to the extent that we have to...... Not all of that is bad. My dad's business had been sued a couple of times over wrongful death accidents. In each case, the worker did some thing wrong, they knew it was wrong when they did it, and it killed them. Then, lawyers got into it, not for justice, but just to get a settlement.... We chose to fight it, and won in every case.

robo hippy

[Ralph Lindberg]

Barry,

You aren't comparing products in the same price range. If you spend the same amount of money on a lathe as you spend on a new car, then surely you could rightfully expect a perfect paint job. Surely you don't shop at the Dollar Store and expect Macey's quality?

Adjusted for inflation, your lathe today would cost $2700. Name one British, Canadian or US manufactured lathe with quality and specifications equal to your lathe that is available new on today's market.

Name it.

If you want the highest quality, you can get it but you will pay for it...... It will cost 6-8 times the $1700 you keep wanting to point out. Quality costs.

Grizzly fits a specific niche in the market. That company has done so since it's entry into the business world. The consumer must be aware how Grizzly conducts their business and what the expectations are in the event of a warrantee situation. For the money, Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck.

Ken, what you are saying is true, in the wood-turning world. In the greater world of wood-working, Grizzly offers tools from the serious hobbyist all the way up to a serious business. In just about every line of tools (table-saws, band-saws, jointers, etc) Grizzly makes tools that sell for $5000 to $8000

[Ralph Lindberg]

I retired 12 years ago taking early retirement when the company I worked for offered I buyout package I couldn't refuse. The company pension and govt. pensions pay the bills but with the way energy and food prices are rising who knows for how long. I took up woodworking as a hobby after I retired and I suspect for many others here it is a hobby. When I started I bought a shop full of Busy Bee power tools......

Rick, just an FYI, Busy Bee was originally (and may still be, I don't know) ran by the brother of the guy that leads Grizzly. For many (many) years Grizzly did not sell in Canada as the two brother had decided to not compete.
Grizzly will now ship to Canada, so it's possible the Canadian brother sold out, or the agreement changed, I simply don't know.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Ken
Along the same line, Teknatool moved production to China (from New Zealand).
Since that happened the QA has been, uneven. I got one of the early China made DVR's had it had fit and finish issues never seen before DVR lathes.
The quality of the first batch of Super-Nova2 chucks was so bad Lee Valley dropped Teknatool.
Of course the entire first batch of their new "spiffy" chucks had to be recalled because they had not been heat-treated.

[Barry McFadden]

No but if it did, Ford would make it right and Grizzly will make it right.

Give it up Barry.....name one lathe made in Europe or North America that can be bought for $1700 or $2700 for that matter ......

I think you are missing my point...all I mean to say is that if I buy something for $20.00 or $2000.00 I expect it to be right. I shouldn't have to go home and see what's wrong with it. Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...
In answer to your request for a European Lathe ....
here's a new UK lathe for 899 pounds or about $1700.00 Canadian.. http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/professional-electronic-variable-speed-lathe#.VXeTglLJ4R8 (http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/professional-electronic-variable-speed-lathe#.VXeTglLJ4R8)

[roger oldre]

well. I know cars so I am comfortable with fixing them. years ago I spent 40 bucks on a plymouth horizon out of a savage yard to take from Minnesota to Washington state and back. it saved me the 200 in gas instead of driving my 3/4 ton truck. I design and build equipment from scratch, the stuff for me often doesn't get painted unless I decide to sell it. LOL I dont see the point of disagreement. can you explain how the pit or scratch in the paint changes the effectiveness of the machine to do what it was designed for? I have gone into the tail stock alignment issue in the past. It is an irrelevant issue for MOST of the turning being done.

[Mike Goetzke]

I happen to have a PM 3520B that I bought 1-1/2 years ago when I splurged with money I received for an award at work. I have Grizzly BS, 8" jointer, and 15" planer. All of the Grizzly's needed some care to get them in top working condition but once they were they have been excellent tools. With the 3520B fit/form/finish were excellent and it worked marvelous out of the box. If I had not bought the 3520B I most likely would be interested in this new Grizzly or a Jet lathe. Only problem I have with a few of the G0766 posts is when it is compared to the PM and others. It is not the same - just like my three floor standing tools are great tools and function as intended but will never be as robust as higher price point tools (and they were designed as such).

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ralph,

It happens. I worked for a very large corporation/manufacturer until I woke up deaf 5 years ago. Some of the MR scanners I installed cost over $1,500,000. The last thing I generally wanted to be was the guy who accepted delivery on the first or even the first few deliveries a new type of system. Even at those prices, the first ones often experience a significant amount of what we called "Infant mortality". It was if they weren't tested in the same manner that our customers used them. They are so complex that often unless you used it in a very precise fashion, you would never experience the problem. Of course the customer had been doing research prior to the arrival of the new machine and wanted to use that precise mode of operation. The same thing was true with software upgrades to those machines. I never wanted to be the first or the last one to upgrade software. The people who first installed an upgrade discovered the errors not found by the software engineers in the labs or test bays. The last guy to do one was getting pressure from management to get it done. Software upgrades to medical imaging devices are tracked by the FDA. Paperwork has to be submitted to report timely completions. Management would be on our backs to get them done.

I laugh when someone says machines built in Taiwan and possibly China ( I don't about China for sure) can't be of high quality. I had friend who died 20 years ago of ALS. He was old enough to be my father. We had an unusual relationship. We picked on each other showing no mercy and yet, when he ran for a gun club presidency, he asked me to run as his treasurer candidate. I did, we won and I served 2 years as the clubs treasurer. He was a retired machinist by trade. He worked for Speer bullets initially locally and then moved to Mexico for a few years where he trained the machinists in Speer's factory there. Then he left Speer, moved to Alaska where he set up his own machine shop. He was also a certified aviation mechanic and bush pilot. He got to where the winters were too hard on him and his wife. He sold his business, two homes and his SuperCub. He moved back to Lewiston where he could enjoy relatively mild winters and still hunt, fish, etc. He'd been a competitive shooter all of his adult life.

As a hobby, he bought a place, set up a shop and bought some Taiwan manufactured machinist tools and went into business as a gun smith. He built custom rifles, hunting and benchrest rifles. He was exceptionally good! How good? Locally people came from as far away as Seattle to get him to build a rifle for them. He built guns for people across the country and even in Alaska. He told me more than once. "Those Taiwan manufactured tools are pretty _____ good!" How good? One year, two guys from Seattle who were serious benchrest shooters had him build them benchrest rifles in the 6mm PPK caliber. How good were the guns? Good enough that both the guys qualified and shot at the national benchrest matches that year. IIRC, one of them came in 4th.

Certainly manufacturers in Taiwan can make good tools and yes the higher priced Grizzly tools can be top notch too. Knowing that Papa Grizzly shoots on one of the teams representing the United States, I suspect he may do some of his own gunsmithing with Grizzly tools.

BTW..I have 2 Grizzly tools. One is a combination disk/OSS sander a G0529. It's fit and finish is great and it works well! I also have a G0490X jointer. It's fit and finish isn't quite as good but for a jointer, I can't imagine I need anything better unless it would be a 12" jointer. Currently it costs $1295 plus shipping. The Laguna equivalent is $2,999 plus shipping....the PM equivalent is $3,059 plus shipping. It was hard for me to justify paying 2 1/4 times the amount for a better paint job. They are all Asian made jointers.

[hu lowery]

Ralph,

It happens. I worked for a very large corporation/manufacturer until I woke up deaf 5 years ago. Some of the MR scanners I installed cost over $1,500,000. The last thing I generally wanted to be was the guy who accepted delivery on the first or even the first few deliveries a new type of system. Even at those prices, the first ones often experience a significant amount of what we called "Infant mortality". It was if they weren't tested in the same manner that our customers used them. They are so complex that often unless you used it in a very precise fashion, you would never experience the problem. Of course the customer had been doing research prior to the arrival of the new machine and wanted to use that precise mode of operation. The same thing was true with software upgrades to those machines. I never wanted to be the first or the last one to upgrade software. The people who first installed an upgrade discovered the errors not found by the software engineers in the labs or test bays. The last guy to do one was getting pressure from management to get it done. Software upgrades to medical imaging devices are tracked by the FDA. Paperwork has to be submitted to report timely completions. Management would be on our backs to get them done.

I laugh when someone says machines built in Taiwan and possibly China ( I don't about China for sure) can't be of high quality. I had friend who died 20 years ago of ALS. He was old enough to be my father. We had an unusual relationship. We picked on each other showing no mercy and yet, when he ran for a gun club presidency, he asked me to run as his treasurer candidate. I did, we won and I served 2 years as the clubs treasurer. He was a retired machinist by trade. He worked for Speer bullets initially locally and then moved to Mexico for a few years where he trained the machinists in Speer's factory there. Then he left Speer, moved to Alaska where he set up his own machine shop. He was also a certified aviation mechanic and bush pilot. He got to where the winters were too hard on him and his wife. He sold his business, two homes and his SuperCub. He moved back to Lewiston where he could enjoy relatively mild winters and still hunt, fish, etc. He'd been a competitive shooter all of his adult life.

As a hobby, he bought a place, set up a shop and bought some Taiwan manufactured machinist tools and went into business as a gun smith. He built custom rifles, hunting and benchrest rifles. He was exceptionally good! How good? Locally people came from as far away as Seattle to get him to build a rifle for them. He built guns for people across the country and even in Alaska. He told me more than once. "Those Taiwan manufactured tools are pretty _____ good!" How good? One year, two guys from Seattle who were serious benchrest shooters had him build them benchrest rifles in the 6mm PPK caliber. How good were the guns? Good enough that both the guys qualified and shot at the national benchrest matches that year. IIRC, one of them came in 4th.

Certainly manufacturers in Taiwan can make good tools and yes the higher priced Grizzly tools can be top notch too. Knowing that Papa Grizzly shoots on one of the teams representing the United States, I suspect he may do some of his own gunsmithing with Grizzly tools.

BTW..I have 2 Grizzly tools. One is a combination disk/OSS sander a G0529. It's fit and finish is great and it works well! I also have a G0490X jointer. It's fit and finish isn't quite as good but for a jointer, I can't imagine I need anything better unless it would be a 12" jointer. Currently it costs $1295 plus shipping. The Laguna equivalent is $2,999 plus shipping....the PM equivalent is $3,059 plus shipping. It was hard for me to justify paying 2 1/4 times the amount for a better paint job. They are all Asian made jointers.


Ken,

I worked in R&D and still have friends doing it. As you know millions poured into R&D and million dollar machines don't mean that there will not be ridiculous problems when the equipment gets to the customers. One medical machine was basically at the government approval and production stage when they finally got around to having someone that used that type of equipment in the real world look at it. The machine wouldn't work in an operating room, major revisions!

You can flog software endlessly, thousands of hours into it. As soon as you do a wide area rollout the customers will catch new issues. The customers will also expect to do things the machinery simply can't do.

My two most fun occupations were commercial fisherman and mechanical designer in R&D, pretty extremely different! I shot the 6PPC's in competition after doing much of the work on them and designing my own chamber reamers. Not where a record could be set but I fired five consecutive five shot groups at a hundred yards all between .100" and .125". I think that is still under the official 10.5 pound record. Of course I didn't have the same pressure on me my friend Jef Fowler had when he shot the real record that stood for several decades. When I wasn't set up to do my own barrels I shipped the blanks halfway across the country and told the smith that I wasn't hard to please, I would settle for perfection. I once spent over twelve hours nonstop turning the necks on 28 pieces of Lapua brass. Used a hand tool that once warmed to body temperature couldn't be set down until the dealing was done. By using a center shaft with tiny offset and much bigger collars the neck turner had lines marking ten-thousandths and those lines were far enough apart they could be divided into fourths and fifths. Had to gauge the result, no way for me to measure it.

Benchrest makes OCD a virtue! Fortunately I have a bit of it and sometimes spend over 24 hours straight at a task. Hard not to break out the dial indicators and mikes turning wood. Got to admit to breaking out a dial indicator while checking my machine sometimes. I'll have to do that with the new griz just for chuckles.

Hu

[Art Mann]

.........some are made in factories with an ISO quality system.

The ISO system is very misleading. For most of my career, I worked at one of the larger automotive electronic component manufacturing facilities in the US with annual sales approaching a billion dollars. We had to comply with the QS 9000 requirements, which is a modified ISO standard tailored to the automotive industry. I worked with them all the time. These standards are not quality standards. They are manufacturing process standards. The audits mostly involved reviewing processes, process control systems and documentation. The inspectors generally knew very little about the product or how to manufacture it properly. Often, they didn't even look at it. A facility can be ISO certified and manufacture products that are designed poorly and work badly, so long as they have well documented and well controlled processes. I know Grizzly manufactures many of their products in an ISO certified plant. Take note that it is the plant, and not the product, that is ISO certified. I can think of at least two reasons why they bother with it. First, they probably hope customers will incorrectly assume it is a product quality standard. Second, all their stuff is manufactured in China or Taiwan but may be designed elsewhere. They need a system to assure that the manufacturing engineer's processes are followed, even 7000 miles away. ISO 9000 does that if the manufacturer is honest about it.

Having said all that, I believe Grizzly products mostly work well and provide a lot of value for the money.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...

Why wouldn't everyone be on board with this? What I find surprising is the excusing of Grizzly for sloppy quality control. No one should get a tool that's slipping around in the crate, with motor hanging on by a partially screwed bolt etc. If one came that way to me from anyone I would give them hell, at least to help the next guy if nothing else. I know some have done that. If they can't deliver a decent customer experience as is then add another 50 bucks onto the cost to improve the QC. That's a more realistic solution than comparing to a new Northfield - machines built to be run all day every day in a production environment. Although since you mentioned it…a nice new 12" jointer from Grizzly can be had for $2K and change. A couple Northfields sold this week for a bit less. ;)

315431

But I'm not trying to be pedantic here. I do believe Grizzly is a good company and has a very solid place in the market providing great value compared to a Jet, Laguna etc. Hopefully they will make improvements on subsequent shipments. Bottom line for me, if we excuse manufacturers for things that aren't right they have no incentive to fix them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The ISO system is very misleading. For most of my career, I worked at one of the larger automotive electronic component manufacturing facilities in the US with annual sales approaching a billion dollars. We had to comply with the QS 9000 requirements, which is a modified ISO standard tailored to the automotive industry. I worked with them all the time. These standards are not quality standards. They are manufacturing process standards. The audits mostly involved reviewing processes, process control systems and documentation. The inspectors generally knew very little about the product or how to manufacture it properly. Often, they didn't even look at it. A facility can be ISO certified and manufacture products that are designed poorly and work badly, so long as they have well documented and well controlled processes. I know Grizzly manufactures many of their products in an ISO certified plant. Take note that it is the plant, and not the product, that is ISO certified. I can think of at least two reasons why they bother with it. First, they probably hope customers will incorrectly assume it is a product quality standard. Second, all their stuff is manufactured in China or Taiwan but may be designed elsewhere. They need a system to assure that the manufacturing engineer's processes are followed, even 7000 miles away. ISO 9000 does that if the manufacturer is honest about it.

Having said all that, I believe Grizzly products mostly work well and provide a lot of value for the money.

Art,

I am very familiar with ISO-9001 as the corporation I worked for was a certified IS0-9001 corporation and we had to pass "inhouse" and "outside" inspections periodically. All it means is there is a quality system in place. It doesn't mean anybody is using the system just a quality system has been developed and is in place. I know of one company that had an ISO system and got caught by a government agency "gundecking" for you former sailors or "forging" the paperwork by a regulatory agency. They didn't ship a product for over 1 year as a result.

If I said a product was ISO certified, I apologize. I surely didn't mean that. I know better.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dok.....That's not quite true.

There is a difference between Taiwan (ROC) and China (PRC). They are separate countries and separate governments though each claims they are the rightful government of the other country.


Some tools are made in Taiwan......some tools made in China.........some are made in factories with an ISO quality system.


The ISO system is very misleading. For most of my career, I worked at one of the larger automotive electronic component manufacturing facilities in the US with annual sales approaching a billion dollars. We had to comply with the QS 9000 requirements, which is a modified ISO standard tailored to the automotive industry. I worked with them all the time. These standards are not quality standards. They are manufacturing process standards. The audits mostly involved reviewing processes, process control systems and documentation. The inspectors generally knew very little about the product or how to manufacture it properly. Often, they didn't even look at it. A facility can be ISO certified and manufacture products that are designed poorly and work badly, so long as they have well documented and well controlled processes. I know Grizzly manufactures many of their products in an ISO certified plant. Take note that it is the plant, and not the product, that is ISO certified. I can think of at least two reasons why they bother with it. First, they probably hope customers will incorrectly assume it is a product quality standard. Second, all their stuff is manufactured in China or Taiwan but may be designed elsewhere. They need a system to assure that the manufacturing engineer's processes are followed, even 7000 miles away. ISO 9000 does that if the manufacturer is honest about it.

Having said all that, I believe Grizzly products mostly work well and provide a lot of value for the money.

Art,

Maybe I should have worded it better but that is what I meant a factory which has an ISO quality system. I realize that doesn't mean anybody is using it.

[Ron Rutter]

Jeff. Well said!!

[Ron Rutter]

I think you are missing my point...all I mean to say is that if I buy something for $20.00 or $2000.00 I expect it to be right. I shouldn't have to go home and see what's wrong with it. Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...
In answer to your request for a European Lathe ....
here's a new UK lathe for 899 pounds or about $1700.00 Canadian.. http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/professional-electronic-variable-speed-lathe#.VXeTglLJ4R8
Barry. And how much to get it here & how much dealer mark-up?? ( if there is a Record dealer today in Canada which I don't think there is!!)

[David Cramer]

Great post Barry and in my humble opinion, some very valid points.

David




I think you are missing my point...all I mean to say is that if I buy something for $20.00 or $2000.00 I expect it to be right. I shouldn't have to go home and see what's wrong with it. Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...
In answer to your request for a European Lathe ....
here's a new UK lathe for 899 pounds or about $1700.00 Canadian.. http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/professional-electronic-variable-speed-lathe#.VXeTglLJ4R8

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think you are missing my point...all I mean to say is that if I buy something for $20.00 or $2000.00 I expect it to be right. I shouldn't have to go home and see what's wrong with it. Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...
In answer to your request for a European Lathe ....
here's a new UK lathe for 899 pounds or about $1700.00 Canadian.. http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/professional-electronic-variable-speed-lathe#.VXeTglLJ4R8

Is it truly manufactured in the UK? Is there a US dealer? According to this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?55540-Record-Lathes-from-the-UK Record lathes were first made in China in 2005. There were already complaints about quality in 2007. Hang on to your 30 year old lathe!

What is shipping costs to the US? Does it have the same capabilities of the new Grizzly? I didn't know they are still making tube rail machines. I will stay with my PM-3520B, thank you!

I am not missing your point. In this price range for a given tool, Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck. Take my G0490X jointer. Today it costs $1295 plus shipping, the Laguna equivalent is $2,999 plus shipping and the PM equivalent lists for $3,059 plus shipping. Is the fit and finish on my Grizzly as good as the PM. Maybe, maybe not but the PM equivalent costs 2.3 time as much. I can't justify paying 2-6 times more a better paint job. I have a 30'x24' standalone, hobbyist woodworking shop, not a woodworking tool museum.

When you compare tools readily available in the US, Grizzly fits a niche for people who are typically hobbyists and either can't afford the top shelf tools or can't justify them because they are for use in a hobby.

So far there have been 2 problems noted about the new Grizzly lathe. 1) the legs come loose from their mounting during shipping and ends up scratching some of the other parts of the lathe. This is the first shipment for goodness sake. I am sure Grizzly is aware of the threads discussing this problem and will take measures to remedy this in the future. 2) the design of the tool rest won't allow it to be lowered enough. I suspect this is a design error by an engineer who isn't a turner. Again, it will take some time but Grizzly has a history of changing designs to remedy design problems.

I retired from one of the most recognized global corporations in the world, headquartered in the US. I once discovered, documented a constant nagging quality problem with a knob used to open and close the collimators on an x-ray machine. The knob was a plastic knob with a brass insert. The knobs were arriving with minute cracks in them. They failed, often crumbled during normal use after a few days or a couple weeks. They got so bad I was ordering "6-packs" of them. I took pictures of the knobs in the box as I opened the box in stages to document their arriving defective. The office that controlled the design and manufacturing of this knob was in France while the plant that manufactured them was in Italy. Luckily by that time, our corporate cell phones had cameras in them. In the end, it turns out someone had accidentally changed the temperature to which they preheated the plastic knob portion before they pressed in the brass insert. It took me over 14 months, within my own company, to get the situation resolved. My point, it can take time to get engineering changes implemented even in a US owned, European based manufacturing plant.

[Rick Gibson]

Rick, just an FYI, Busy Bee was originally (and may still be, I don't know) ran by the brother of the guy that leads Grizzly. For many (many) years Grizzly did not sell in Canada as the two brother had decided to not compete.
Grizzly will now ship to Canada, so it's possible the Canadian brother sold out, or the agreement changed, I simply don't know.

Ralph, I did know this. For me the distance is a factor as well as getting across the border. On the surface the Busy Bee tools and the Grizzly tools look like they are identical except for the paint colour. The lathe I have I believe is the same as the G0733 from Grizzly. As a hobby lathe it's great if I was running a business I would likely get one of the more expensive Canadian or American made lathes for the better quality and the cost also becomes tax deductible which brings the price down.

[David C. Roseman]

[snip]

When you compare tools readily available in the US, Grizzly fits a niche for people who are typically hobbyists and either can't afford the top shelf tools or can't justify them because they are for use in a hobby.

[snip]

Ken, I agree with this, but I'll add one more niche of users for Asian-made tools: People who not hobbyists, but professionals who capitalize their equipment purchases, yet still can't justify spending the money on "top shelf" tools. Commercial users are an important segment of Grizzly's market.

More generally, there are many folks that make their living with Asian-made tools. I used to comment from time to time on imported budget tools (pick one of many vendors), "Yep, it's a good tool, if you're not going to make your living with it!" Now that I see more and more people actually doing that, heck, even with Harbor Freight and Princess Auto tools (probably the quintessential vendors of low-budget Asian-made tools in the U.S. and Canada), I rarely say it anymore!

[Reed Gray]

I think the manufacturing business is getting to be almost as much of a mess as the medical business is... Maybe throw in legal there as well..... From a recent movie, "We have to start thinking as a species, not as individuals."

robo hippy

[Geoff Whaling]

"We have to start thinking as a species, not as individuals."

robo hippy

I'm with Reed on this one. As turners we must think as a collective and support manufacturers of quality tools and if at all possible locally made tools.

In Queensland, AUS we are very fortunate to have two local quality manufacturers - Vermec tools and Vicmarc lathes. We have access to some very good tools from across the ditch - NZ - Woodcut, Kelton etc. We also had a very good South Australian made lathe the Woodfast (Rikon lathes in USA). Woodfast over the years painfully went down the road of diminishing sales and eventually ownership of the brand went off shore and so did the manufacture of their lathes.

Over the years I have some interesting conversations with members of the Verricha family, particularly Marco (Vicmarc) and his uncle Enzo (Vermec) about their tools, quality, development and the market forces they are up against, and how they adapt to survive. Many may think I have some association with both companies. I wish I did, but I don't. I do have a vested interest in them surviving though. I happen to be a very satisfied customer who would like to see them survive in a brutal market because I like using quality tools and desperately hope that they will survive to produce and develop more & better tools.

This year at Turnfest a few of us had a great chat with Marco about the development & future of the Vicmarc VL600. The VL600 is way off the scale compared to the lathes we are talking about for most users. For a small manufacturer, and a family owned business, its an on and off again development as Vicmarc have to face the reality of mounting development costs and a potentially very small or perhaps a non-existent market. Many criticise Vicmarc for having their castings made offshore – the reality is they no longer have a choice as there is no viable small production run foundries / casting plants left in Australia.

Many will recognize similar stories with small family owned North American manufacturers of lathes and tools. Sure you may pay $5 or $10 dollars more for a tool or 10 or 20% more for an accessory, even up to 100 or 150% more for a lathe etc. Over the life of that tool or machine, we are talking a few dollars or less than the cost of a beer per week sort of stuff. It will more than repay you with the satisfaction and pleasure of using a quality tool & supporting a local family owned business that listens to its customers and manufacturers the tools we want to use.

Often we are making the choice or distinction between a machine that has a life cycle of several years and is really a "consumable" in typical hobby use to a users life time or even several generations lifetimes. I know several older turners who are actually considering giving turning away as they now have no other choice but to buy another "Asian" machine and can't even afford that. Mostly because their original "generic" machine has failed in a critical component with no spares availability. Simple maths at times, 2 x $1700 = $3400, now that actually purchases a machine with a much longer life cycle.

It really gets back to put your money where your mouth is. Its no use bemoaning the fact that tool and machine manufacture is heading to Asia if we continue to turn our backs on local manufacturers.

[Michael Mason]

I think you are missing my point...all I mean to say is that if I buy something for $20.00 or $2000.00 I expect it to be right. I shouldn't have to go home and see what's wrong with it. Maybe some people think that because something is inexpensive then it's ok to have parts falling off of it. For me personally, that would not be satisfactory...


I don't understand how this is acceptable for any product either. Price point should not mean they don't take the time to tighten the bolts. And if the ocean did it, well what's going to happen when you rough out a bowl blank. Give me a break.
Now, I do think this lathe is a very good deal for the money. If I were starting out today, I would be looking very seriously about getting it. As long as you are happy with whatever you have, that's really all that matters.

[Art Mann]

Several years ago, I took a tour of Gibson Guitars at their facility just off Beale Street in Memphis. At the time they made some of their most expensive high end hollow body guitars there. It looked to me like a majority of their equipment was Grizzly.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm with Reed on this one. As turners we must think as a collective and support manufacturers of quality tools and if at all possible locally made tools.

It really gets back to put your money where your mouth is. Its no use bemoaning the fact that tool and machine manufacture is heading to Asia if we continue to turn our backs on local manufacturers.

So Geoff,

For those of us who might not be able afford to buy the expensive brands, you would suggest we don't turn at all? :confused:

Or beginners should just jump right in and buy a $10,000 Robust?

To me that appears to neither help the tool manufacturers or promote the art of turning. Are you suggesting that turning should only be practiced by the wealthy?

Thanks for the idea!

[Roger Chandler]

I don't understand how this is acceptable for any product either. Price point should not mean they don't take the time to tighten the bolts. And if the ocean did it, well what's going to happen when you rough out a bowl blank. Give me a break.
Now, I do think this lathe is a very good deal for the money. If I were starting out today, I would be looking very seriously about getting it. As long as you are happy with whatever you have, that's really all that matters.

One of the things I do as a normal routine any time I get a tool in the shop is to go through it and check for anything that might cause it to not operate at optimal efficiency........I automatically tighten every screw or bolt I see, and make sure any belts are in alignment and pulley set screws are tight against the motor shaft. I also check about maintenance requirements, especially any required lubrication.

My table saw fence alignment is less than 1/2 of .001 front to back of the saw and in parallel alignment with the blade and miter slot.........measured with dial indicator and while I know that is overkill for woodworking, it is just how I like my equipment to operate. I went through the 0766 lathe and tightened every screw, bolt, belt and made sure my bed was level front to back, end to end and diagonal, both directions.........my centers line up exactly. My unit runs smooth and performance is definitely there so far.........I believe it will last as long as a 3520b!

[Michael Mason]

One of the things I do as a normal routine any time I get a tool in the shop is to go through it and check for anything that might cause it to not operate at optimal efficiency........I automatically tighten every screw or bolt I see, and make sure any belts are in alignment and pulley set screws are tight against the motor shaft. I also check about maintenance requirements, especially any required lubrication.

My table saw fence alignment is less than 1/2 of .001 front to back of the saw and in parallel alignment with the blade and miter slot.........measured with dial indicator and while I know that is overkill for woodworking, it is just how I like my equipment to operate. I went through the 0766 lathe and tightened every screw, bolt, belt and made sure my bed was level front to back, end to end and diagonal, both directions.........my centers line up exactly. My unit runs smooth and performance is definitely there so far.........I believe it will last as long as a 3520b!

Nothing wrong with doing any of that. But, that still is no excuse for motors hanging by a thread on a new machine. I think that is what the OP was trying to say.

[Michael Mason]

So George,

For those of us who might not be able afford to buy the expensive brands, you would suggest we don't turn at all? :confused:

Or beginners should just jump right in and buy a $10,000-15,000 Robust?

To me that appears to neither help the tool manufacturers or promote the art of turning. Are you suggesting that turning should only be practiced by the wealthy?

Thanks for the idea!

First, his name was Geoff. Second, Robust lathes don't cost $15,000. Third, I haven't read where anyone said only the wealthy should turn. I am far from that myself. As I stated previously, I think this new lathe is a good value, but that doesn't excuse new machines with motors hanging off, no matter where they were made or what they cost. This thread has been civil for the most part, but it seems it has riled you up. I am not bashing machines, I am just saying they could do better.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Michael,

First thank you for the corrections. I corrected my post directed at Geoff using his proper name and after going to Robust's site, I corrected my reference to the price of one of their lathes too in that same post. With accessories however, you could approach $11,000 but I left the value at $10,000.

When someone suggests that turners should unite and buy only good quality Australian, Canadian, American or European lmanufactured lathes, they are by default, suggesting you spend larger amounts of money to purchase a lathe. People of lessor means might not have that larger amount of money. Most turners are not professionals but rather are hobbyists. Frankly, while I could afford a fully dressed out Robust, I can't justify that amount of money for 1 tool for a hobby. But, notice I didn't attack directly or indirectly those who do buy Robust or the Robust company. I didn't accuse the better quality lathes of being overpriced. I simply said I can't justify spending that amount of money for 1 tool for a hobby. It's subjective.....there is no right or wrong....I have no reason to feel I'm on a higher moral ground......it's a matter of personal opinion.

When the Sawstop saw was first developed and discussed here at SMC, I argued against the petitioning of the CPSC to require all future tablesaws to have Sawstop or a similar device for the same reason. The Sawstop safety device prices the saw out of reach for some people with limited financial resources. The individual who might consider starting a contracting business to work their way to a better financial position, might not be able to afford this more expensive saw. The regulation would force people to either have a larger amount of money to purchase a saw or not buy a saw at all.

Grizzly tools fills a market niche that allows hobbyists and those with smaller budgets to buy tools that they might not be able to justify or afford if the same or equivalent tools were more expensive. The company operates with a business plan that has a history and apparently is successful. Within their manner of operation, they provide good customer service. Regular customers of Grizzly tools realize this and are willing to accept the possible shortcomings for a tool with a lower price tag knowing they might have to deal with some issues.

As someone who worked for 34 years for 2 different global, recognized manufacturers, I know what new product roll outs look like. I have prayed that difficult customers didn't order or take delivery of a newly released product line before the bugs were worked out of them. I have dealt with a multitude of problems that shouldn't have happened during shipment, delivery but did. It happens and the systems I am talking about cost at times approaching $2,000,000 and it still happened. It will continue to happen.

For the record, I own and turn on a PM-3520B lathe.

What this thread has really been about is to attack on Grizzly in particular, Asian manufactured products in general and in doing so, intentionally, indirectly antagonize those who would dare to buy such products. It is a repeated theme at this website and frankly it gets old.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

What this thread has really been about is to attack on Grizzly in particular, Asian manufactured products in general and in doing so, intentionally, indirectly antagonize those who would dare to buy such products. It is a repeated theme at this website and frankly it gets old.
That seems a little harsh Ken.
I think the OP was asking why anyone would put up with receiving new equipment that pretty much got beat up and damaged in shipping. Seems like a fair question to me, regardless of where it was made. Especially since the importer had stated, according to at least one post on another thread, that they were going to open up and inspect all incoming lathes before they were shipped from the distribution points.
We live in a global environment - our goods come from everywhere. I actually think it's reasonable to expect that those goods live up to reasonable expectations.
That said, anyone who takes advantage of what's possibly a 'too good to be true' introductory price on a piece of equipment that has a moderate level of complexity to it's construction should probably expect that they are going to be, at best, beta testers.

[Art Mann]

What this thread has really been about is to attack on Grizzly in particular, Asian manufactured products in general and in doing so, intentionally, indirectly antagonize those who would dare to buy such products. It is a repeated theme at this website and frankly it gets old.

Ken, I was about to post that exact same message but now I will just agree with you. I have seen countless responses to a new or inexperienced member's request for advice in which certain tool snobs recommend very expensive European or US made tools when the person may have budgeted only a few hundred dollars.

I remember my first paying woodwork back in 1977. I was struggling to get by and my equipment set consisted of a 1 hp Craftsman table saw, an AMT 4 inch jointer (remember that brand?) driven by a salvaged washing machine motor and an 8.5 amp Craftsman router mounted in the middle of a salvaged road sign with a 2 X 4 and a couple of C clamps as a fence. I made some good money making and selling bee hives and internal frames to a beekeeping equipment retailer. You couldn't tell the difference between my work and the same stuff distributed by Dadant, Kelly or any of the other commercial suppliers. I know what can be done with old and inexpensive tools if you are willing to work with them.

When I read these tool selection requests, I always try to offer what I think is the best low cost alternative just in case the poster is financially challenged. I still remember what it was like when I needed tools and had little money.

[daryl moses]

Thank you Ken!!
I'm a "newbie" here on SMC so I have tried to stay out of this discussion. I'm not a newbie when it comes to woodworking though as I've been working in wood one way or another for 4o+ years.
My shop has a variety of different equipment made from various Mfg. Some like my old Delta [made in the USA] bandsaw and some made in Taiwan, China or wherever. And yes, I own a Grizzly lathe and table saw. None of my equipment is perfect, they all have needed to be "tweaked" a bit to get them where they should be. In my opinion anyone who owns shop equipment should be able to perform their own maintenance on their equipment.
I never buy top of the line tools nor do I purchase the cheapest, I'm a middle of the roader. Not that I can't afford to buy the best but because I as a hobbiest don't really need top of the line tools. My Grizzly lathe and table saw are all and more I could ask for.
I don't ever berate someone for owning something less than I, and it's getting a little more than annoying hearing some of the negatives from folks that own more expensive equipment than I do.
I've noticed that some were just hiding in the wings hoping that there would be some negative reviews of the new G0766, just so they cold say "told ya so, told ya so".
It's something that me as one of the new kids on the block or someone who might be a prospective new member here on the Creek find repulsive.
Anytime a new product hits the market there are always a few kinks and bugs to be worked out. As long as the makers of the equipment listen to the customers and rectify the problems all is good.

[Art Mann]

That seems a little harsh Ken.

What seems harsh to me is a person's criticism of a company that sells stationary woodworking tools that actually do their job pretty well at a price point that US workers could never match. If lathes strarted at $10,000, there wouldn't be enough of them to even keep the turner's forum going.

[Dwight Rutherford]

Can't speak for others, but for me this horse has been beaten to death. I'm going to go out to the shop and turn something.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Great idea Dwight. :p

[Mike Sherman]

Thank you Ken!!
I'm a "newbie" here on SMC so I have tried to stay out of this discussion. I'm not a newbie when it comes to woodworking though as I've been working in wood one way or another for 4o+ years.
My shop has a variety of different equipment made from various Mfg. Some like my old Delta [made in the USA] bandsaw and some made in Taiwan, China or wherever. And yes, I own a Grizzly lathe and table saw. None of my equipment is perfect, they all have needed to be "tweaked" a bit to get them where they should be. In my opinion anyone who owns shop equipment should be able to perform their own maintenance on their equipment.
I never buy top of the line tools nor do I purchase the cheapest, I'm a middle of the roader. Not that I can't afford to buy the best but because I as a hobbiest don't really need top of the line tools. My Grizzly lathe and table saw are all and more I could ask for.
I don't ever berate someone for owning something less than I, and it's getting a little more than annoying hearing some of the negatives from folks that own more expensive equipment than I do.
I've noticed that some were just hiding in the wings hoping that there would be some negative reviews of the new G0766, just so they cold say "told ya so, told ya so".
It's something that me as one of the new kids on the block or someone who might be a prospective new member here on the Creek find repulsive.
Anytime a new product hits the market there are always a few kinks and bugs to be worked out. As long as the makers of the equipment listen to the customers and rectify the problems all is good.

I'm with you on this! Like you, I'm new here as well so was trying to stay out of the conversation.
Being I've been a part of tooling up two major guitar factories in my career, there are more than one way to skin the cat. You can go out and drop large coin on a top end machine, or you can buy a lower quality machine and modify it to perform just as well as a high end for less than half the cost. There isn't a machine in my shop that hasn't been modified/upgraded.

As for machines arriving from half way across world with issues (or even down the street for that matter), most machines purchased new require some assembly/set-up/ & truing. Even moving a machine to a different location in your shop will require re-calibration.
There was a comment earlier in the thread about a machine arriving with loose fasteners on the motor. Would you really want to throw the switch on a new machine without going through it first? Would you really expect that you could just plug in a machine and go when it has traveled half way around the world? Have you ever been to a large shipping terminal and seen the fork lift drivers in action?
There is a human element to all machines - people have to assemble them in the factories. Expect variances between machines, and certainly don't expect turn-key out of the crate.

Buy the best machine you can afford....jump in and get your hands dirty, and make it the way it needs to be to suit your needs.

[Ron Rutter]

"My table saw fence alignment is less than 1/2 of .001 front to back of the saw and in parallel alignment with the blade and miter slot.........measured with dial indicator and while I know that is overkill for woodworking, it is just how I like my equipment to operate."

Roger. This is a dangerous practice. There should be a few thou. clearance on the outfeed side. This prevents the stock from being pinched & reduces the chance of kickback! Ron.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

So now it seems to become “Kill the messenger”, just because someone thinks the new machines arrived in bad conditions, and this should not be so with the assurance that every crate was going to be opened and the machines inspected ??

Maybe to gullible to believe everything that is being promised, as these things have happened before, and yes I personally would think that you get what you pay for, maybe.

[Dale Miner]

So now it seems to become “Kill the messenger”, just because someone thinks the new machines arrived in bad conditions, and this should not be so with the assurance that every crate was going to be opened and the machines inspected ??

Maybe to gullible to believe everything that is being promised, as these things have happened before, and yes I personally would think that you get what you pay for, maybe.

One very very seldom gets more than what they pay for. It is pretty easy to get less than what is paid for though.

[Keith Outten]

Over the last twelve years I have seen complaints about almost every manufacturer of machinery on this planet. I doubt there is a company with a perfect track record, there are often issues that have to be addressed from manufacturing mistakes, design deficiencies, shipping damages, etc.

The key to purchasing from any company is their commitment to correcting problems by working with their customers. Almost every company that has been discussed here over the years has made an attempt to make their customers happy, even those who will never be satisfied because they expect perfection. Then there are the cases where the customer made the mistake assembling or adjusting a new machine and they rant like a spoiled child taking every opportunity to publicly damage a companies reputation while the problems are their own doing.

In the end whats important is the percentage of machines that are delivered per the customers expectations measured against the percentage of machines that have problems to resolve. In Grizzly's defense their track record is probably exemplary given the huge number of machines they ship each and every month. This is also true of other manufacturers who produce a much lower number of machines which makes it easier to keep the number of problems to a minimum.

Perfection is not attainable and it never will be.