I know what I want to make, trying to limit cost, could you advise me about chisels?

[Aldo Tanca]

In first place, sorry for posting what is no doubt the more common type of question on any forum.
A clueless beginner asking what to buy :)

However, at least I have somewhat a clear idea of what I wish to make, which makes the question slightly less generic.

My experience is limited to woodturning and whittling with a set of flexcut knives.
What I already have:
- some turning tools, of course, but no carving chisels, neither I have ever used one.
- a grinder, some limited experience in shaping tools and keeping them reasonably sharp, and stones, sand paper and strops enough to sharpen carving chisels too, I guess
- A bunch of wood, hard, soft, wet and seasoned, after a few years of scouting for any occasion to get some, I have more than I can use
- No band saw, chop saw and similar. I do all my roughing with chainsaw, hatchet and a few hand saws.
- A dremel with some cheap bits suitable for carving. I did not like using it much though, way too noisy.
- A regrettable beginner tendency to buy stuff without really knowing I will need it, and to hope cool tools will magically up for lack of skills and practise. Tempered by the fact I am quite low on cash right now, probably that's a good thing.

I want to try and carve:
1) Decorated and figure head pipes and pipe stems.
2) Boxes carved from a single piece of wood, with relief decorations and scenes. Pretty small stuff, no more than 4 X 3 inches and two inches deep. They are not exactly boxes, but close enough, here are some examples (http://gepetto-mods.com/index.php/other)I like.
3) Chopping boards, up to 16 inches by 12. Not square-shaped. Here some examples (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=chopping+boards+olive&tbm=isch&imgil=V1_kaGuLYgK7vM%253A%253Bj8aiy9i_a8afdM%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.notonthehighstreet.com %25252Ftherusticdish%25252Fproduct%25252Fnatural-edged-oilve-wood-chopping-board&source=iu&pf=m&fir=V1_kaGuLYgK7vM%253A%252Cj8aiy9i_a8afdM%252C_&usg=__FpTT4PIoU_Y-pVOSC4Uqlwg5KDg%3D&biw=1366&bih=670&ved=0CFoQyjc&ei=iT92VZzBG-iX7QaFkYCQCQ#imgrc=V1_kaGuLYgK7vM%253A%3Bj8aiy9i_a 8afdM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.notonthehighstreet. com%252Fsystem%252Fproduct_images%252Fimages%252F0 00%252F538%252F343%252Foriginal_107.jpgx800.jpg%3B http%253A%252F%252Fwww.notonthehighstreet.com%252F therusticdish%252Fproduct%252Fnatural-edged-oilve-wood-chopping-board%3B900%3B589)


I also like the idea of carving in the round. I particularly like gargoyles and organic, flowing shapes:) But that is irrelevant in that, even if I would ever develop the skills, it would be years from now, so I am not looking for tools to do that.

As a beginner, I see a problem in that decorating boxes and pipes would perhaps call for small chisels, while carving out boxes from a single piece of wood and shaping the chopping boards would probably be faster with larger tools.

Again, I am a little low on cash, so I was wondering if one could do with say four or five chisels?
In turning, with a bit of ingenuity and patience one could do a lot with just a skew, an irish grind gouge and a parting tool.
Is it the same with carving?
Are there tools which are particularly versatile, if not as convenient as having more specialized ones?

Thanks for reading, again I am pretty clueless, I hope my questions make sense

[Karl Andersson]

Hi Aldo,
from the looks of what you want to make now, except for the pipes, you don't need many carving tools at all to get started. For the organic-shaped (live edge) boxes and cutting boards, as long as you have a rip saw (hand or chain) and your hatchets, etc, you can easily rough them out. I'd recommend a decent spokeshave - the Stanley 51 or 151 - or a radius-faced one (like the old Stanley 63) if you want to quickly smooth out surfaces or handles. A carver's drawknife would work, but requires more control and probably more sanding. You'd also need a jack plane (Stanley no.5's are cheap) - once you learn to sharpen it razor-sharp and use the chip breaker, you'd be able to both flatten and smooth the cut surfaces. For overall shaping and smoothing of the "natural" forms, you should get some coarse and smooth rasps. A bent gouge and a bench chisel would allow you to hollow the boxes out.

The level of detail you want in your carving will guide how many tools you need, and the size of the carving will dictate what size tools. One of the most important things you'll need is some way of holding the wood while you carve, especially carving in the round. Even with special gloves, I found carving small figures while holding the piece in one hand and carving with the other was just asking for trouble - you make the best cuts with both hands on the tool. I find that palm-handled chisels are best for me when working on small carvings (less than hand-sized) and you can get a decent starter set of those for less than chisels with full handles. If you start carving larger pieces, though, the palm chisels CAN be used, but take a bit longer to carve with vs. using a mallet and straight chisel.

Basic starter sets will tell you what shapes you need for all-around carving; a v-tool, straight and bent gouges of deep and shallow radius, and some flat blades with straight and bent shanks. Most sets include a skew chisel as well, for getting into small spaces. Some sets have very small blades, which might be good for the pipes, but not much else - get blades from 3/8-1/2 inch in width if possible. You can make presentable carvings with a basic set, but as your carving becomes more complicated, you'll find yourself taking a lot more time to carefully make the cuts or you'll know what tool you're missing and buy it. Likewise, if you want to make a cathedral-sized gargoyle, you'll want a "sculptor set" of chisels instead of small ones.

Oh, and one of the most useful all- around tools I have for shaping and even detail carving is a double-bevel tapered or fishtail chisel, about 3/4 in wide with a straight handle. By using the whole edge and alternating with just the corners, you can do a lot of straight and round carving.

This is my opinion, based on my experience - others will surely differ
have fun,
Karl

[Aldo Tanca]

Karl,
What can I say? Thanks so much for taking the time to give me excellent advice.
While I have not done any carving beyond whittling, over the last years I have visited this forum many times and seen quite a few of your impressive pieces and read many of your posts. There are no carving clubs in my area, so it is truly great to get advice from somebody with so much experience.

So, in terms of chisels, if I understand correctly, the only thing calling for smaller tools are the pipes.
Given you mention palm chisels, I was checking some flexcut sets. I like my flexcut knives, they are easy to keep sharp. So perhaps their chisel blades are good quality as well, and I think they come sharp and well formed, which can give me an idea of what to aim for when sharpening.
Also, they have larger sets with removable handles, which would cover both the 3/8-1/2 inch range and smaller blades. But I suspect that changing blade on the handle often might be an headache. At least, when woodturning on the occasion I keep switching tools, having just one handle would drive mad, perhaps with carving is the same or even worst.
I am tempted to go with this set: http://www.axminster.co.uk/set-of-12-axminster-carving-tools . Axminster steel is typically decent, and their sets affordable. The handles are supposedly rubbish and they will need honing (hopefully not reshaping), but turning new handles, perhaps palm handles, would not take me too long.

- spokeshaves: I have none, but I am keeping an eye on a few 151 on ebay, flat and round, they seem cheap enough, and perhaps the ones from faithful could be good too (with faithful is always, well, a leap of faith, some stuff is good, some is trash, always cheap but cheap trash is never a good deal)

- plane: thanks, I am looking for a Jack number 5 second hand, perhaps I can find one with a flat sole and perhaps straight sides, which would save me some sanding. I also have this one: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-no-9-1-2-block-plane
I suppose it is not quite what I need? Sorry, my understanding of planes is limited to what I learnt on youtube, so, well, pretty limited :)

- Chainsaw, handsaws and hatchet: I should have everything already

- Carving vice: I don't have it, but perhaps I can manage boxes and cutting boards with my workmate bench, given they are flat. And for the pipes and some detailing on the boxes I can try with my dremel vice, which can swivel. But I am not sure how steady it will be when working with the chisels.

Thanks for explaining about the different chisel shapes and the fishtail chisel. To be honest, I have seen it in quite a few sets over the last days, and I did not know what to make of it.

I wished to ask you an opinion about a few things, if you can:

- If I needed to modify the angle of some chisel, are the bench grinder and water wheel I use for most of my turning tools any use? The grinding wheel leaves a slightly concave bevel which for turning is not necessarily a problem, or can be corrected roughly, but perhaps in carving a perfectly straight bevel is more important?

- I have a japanese stone, diamond cards and sandpaper. Is an honing guide useful with planes, spokeshaves and straight chisels? I was thinking of making my own, but this one seems cheap enough and well reviewed: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-honing-guide?amp;utm_term=Axminster+Rider+Honing+Guide&ut m_content=Aldo%2C+take+the+guesswork+out+of+sharpe ning

- End grain chopping board. I was preparing some logs today and wondering. The face of chopping boards takes quite a beating in use, so perhaps I should make that the end grain side, even if the result is not as pretty ?

- Carving green wood. Do they do it at all and seal somewhat, or the risk of splitting and cracking is too great? Particularly for the cutting boards, my best slabs are not too well seasoned, and I have some cherry root which I dug out only a few weeks ago. Root wood is great for pipes, I think, but obviously the wood is very green right now.

Sorry, too many questions. Thanks again for all the advice, now I have much clearer ideas.

Aldo

[Karl Andersson]

Hi Aldo,
I'm glad if I can help - starting out carving can be intimidating if you get too worried about how many tools you have and put off carving until you have a lot of tools; as I said, once you get started carving with some basic tools and working on specific objects, or styles, or wood, then you'll get a better idea what else you need. Of course, it doesn't help when you figure out you need a specific tool when you're working on a carving at midnight and you want it done by morning - but most cuts can be done more than one way, and figuring out how to make a cut in a certain grain of wood with what you have for tools can be part of the enjoyment...at least for me.

Are you in the U.K., or is Axminster just the most accessible for you? I'm sorry I don't know anything about their quality, but if their steel is decent, that's most of the battle - especially for a turner such as you who can make new handles. That set seems fairly inexpensive, if my Euro converter is working, but I have found some extremely good steel in inexpensive import carving tools, so it may be a good find. If at all possible, go to see a set in person before you buy. Aside from hardness of the steel, the shaping of the blades is critical to an acceptable carving tool. The biggest flaw I have seen in some sets is in the v-tools; look at the blade end-on and along the shaft to see that both "wings" are equal thickness and length, and that the tip has been factory ground to be nice and square-search online (like at Chris Pye's website) for "sharpening a v-tool" before you go to see what it should look like and what causes bad shapes. I have one antique v-tool that is a little thicker on one wing, and it takes far too much time and concentration to get it shaped and sharpened, compared to others that are more even. I would definitely change the Axminster handles before even trying to use them - those silly ferrules on the end are apparently flimsy (according to a reviewer) and shouldn't be needed on a carving tool unless they used some very splintery wood. Even then, I'd take them off and reshape the handle by just turning the main trunk smooth with the "tenon" for the ferrule - if the wood then split, I'd replace it. if you look at Paul Sellers blog about changing the handles on an Aldi chisel, you'll get some idea how to remove the handles and what you can do with them, I don't think the shape is terrible, but I prefer hexagonal long handles, or palm handles with a flat to keep my tools from rolling around. With the long handles, you want it smooth for when you're pushing by hand (no ferrule) but with a rounded flat end for striking with a mallet. If you go with that set, you can turn yourself a nice carver's mallet as well- for what you're planning, it doesn't need to be monstrously heavy, just about any hardwood will work well.

The only flexcut product I use is their stropping block and compund- which I highly recommend for you so you can keep the blades very sharp as you carve. I have heard many folks like their tools, and I trust their steel is just fine for working - I would, however, get one of the permanently-handled sets for any except small blades (4mm or less), even then, I'd prefer not to change blades, but I am sure I could get used to it. Carving small objects in the round requires steady work and concentration and it's not like you'll be constantly using five different blade shapes in a minute - you tend to do as many cuts as needed with the tool in your hand before reaching for another, until you get to the final detail cuts, so changing blades probably would only require developing your "system" to be efficient.

For the other tools, it sounds like you have a good plan. Browse the neanderthal section here for posts about jack planes and flattening boards and you'll get a lot of good information about how to best use them. Especially look up "setting chipbreaker" if you get any jack or other "bench" planes. The block plane you have, as long as its blade is decent, should get you started and be useable for most/ all of your current needs - a larger plane would just make it much easier to get your boards flat. Remember, though, that you CAN just use what you have, you just need to develop the techniques and keep your blade sharp and the mouth adjusted for the cut. For a jack plane, don't worry so much about a flat sole and straight sides - if it's an older Stanley, Record, or other known brand, these will be all within acceptable range unless the tool is obviously damaged. There are also new tools that work well, but you did say you were looking for 2nd hand. The spokeshave should be easily found for little money on eBay - it is really hard to mess up a 151 or a 51 unless you leave them outdoors for 20 years, so just make sure they have all their parts and aren't corroded too badly.

For sharpening, you have pretty much all you need, except you should get some slipstones in medium india and hard arkansas that are shaped for gouges and v-tools. A set like these in medium and fine would cover many of your needs: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Carving-Tool-Slips-P268.aspx?gclid=CLS3qIXNh8YCFQYRHwodA2cAwA although I only use the shape 2nd from the left, in medium and fine India followed by hard Arkansas. A honing guide such as you linked to is useful for planes (Search the neanderthal forums for "eclipse guide" as that's the original designer and maybe you'll see if the axminster one is mentioned). They normally aren't useful for chisels because they can't grip very narrow shanks - but you'll be able to sharpen by hand pretty easily with some practice. Many do use grinding wheels for shaping and general sharpening of carving tools, so you should be able to use yours, and a concave bevel is what they actually want; however, especially with the small and thin tools, you'll find it's very easy to overheat the blade edge, so you have to grind it back to clean metal and start again. Do that often enough and you have little stubby blades in short order, so I tend to very lightly shape with a powered grinder, then do most shaping, then honing, etc. on oil stones. You water wheel should prevent that, but go lightly.

End grain chopping board...well, think about it for a second: the best way to rough shape wood is to hit the end grain with a wedge, axe, froe, etc and it splits. So that's what people would be doing to an end-grain cutting board. It could be done with extremely hard wood, perhaps, but you'd have to glue blocks of end grain to a long-grain board so it would have some degree of structural strength. You couldn't do it from a whole section of trunk normally, as almost any wood would split radially as it dried. i can see your point, though, but most people accept that a cutting board gets wear/ cuts in the face. Use a penetrating oil finish instead of a hard varnish on the face and the knife cuts will be less obvious (and water won't get trapped behind the finish when it gets washed). Also use only very hard woods like Maple, Olive, etc. for things like this. You could make a walnut cheese board (dull knives, no chopping), but it wouldn't survive well as a cutting board.


Carving green wood - it's how much of the historical carvings were done - either green wood or air dried. Look up Peter Follansbee online and you can read his blogs about green wodworking, carving, etc. Some woods dry better than others, and how they are cut up prior to drying will affect splitting, drying time, etc.. The best thing you can do to prevent splitting and cracking with green woodworking is to split/ rive your boards instead of saw-cut them. That's hard to do with a root ball, especially if you want to show the grain, so for the carving boards at least try to cut radially with your saw, and don't use boards that have the center pith in them (almost cetain to crack). If need be, cut your slab, cut out the center with the pith, and glue the boards back together with waterproof glue. A pipe is so small (like working a spoon) that the surface dries very fast - sometimes while you're carving- and can split in your hand or overnight between carving sessions. I haven't made pipes, but with spoons, I stay conscious of their surface dryness while working in warm weather and don't let them dry too much (sometimes dunk them in water while working) then I wrap them in a couple layers of bath towels overnight to allow slow drying. As with bowl turning, I think rough-shaping the pipe bowl in rootwood would be much easier to do while green/ wet, then slowly dry it so it doesn't crack, and do the final carving when dry. The best finish carving is done with dry wood - too moist and the wood fuzzes up a bit while drying.

OK, I hope that answers your current questions - feel free to ask more, I don't mind, and there is plenty of information online if you know where to look.
regards,
Karl

[Aldo Tanca]

Hi Karl,
I just wanted to say thanks and apologize too, for not having replied earlier. To be honest, all your useful advice prompted me into reading and researching quite a few things, and I did not want to reply until I understood better at least some of it
This is all quite new to me and I realized once more that I am woefully ignorant about even things that are pretty basic for woodturners, like making the best of wood grain and the different ways of preparing the wood.
Anyway, it's all good, I think I now understand a bit more and hopefully the new blanks I have prepared over the weekend will serve me well.

Yes, I am based in the UK and Axminster is generally a decent compromise between quality and price. They rely a lot on word of mouth and online reputation, and seem to allow negative reviews on their own site, so one can generally trust them to be helpful in case of problems. But they have been known to sell some rubbish item on the occasion. Also, while the chinese contractors are perfectly able to produce high quality tools, it is also true that, at least in other fields, they have been known to start very well to impress and gradually lower quality. So buying something that was well reviewed last year is always a leap of faith.

I tried for several days now to get a good price on ebay for Pfeil, Marples and other well regarded brands, but not surprisingly it all goes pear shaped at the end of the auction, sometimes close to buying new, so I went for the Axminster chisels, which I just received along with the honing guide.
The first impression is that out of the box they rival my best butter knife in their ability to make shavings. The handle on my butter knife is way better though. But that was to be expected and not a reason to despair. The two v-tools are unbalanced as the one you described. I did not measure yet but looking at them from the top, I think in one the right side of the groove is 1m and the left one more than two.
The handles are everything thay say they are and more. Whoever finished them was in a hurry. Either that or he thought epoxy all over the blades helps with carving.
I started by giving the tools a good honing on the flexcut strop. I actually already have the one with grooves you mentioned, as it came with my carving knives set. Some of the edges improved, some not so much particularly the v-tools. It might be down to my sharpening tecnique though. I'll give it a go on my water stones and perhaps sandpaper on glass. I'll consider grinding, but I'll have to make a new jig for that, as they are much shorter than turning tools. The current bevel angle looks a bit steep, so reshaping might be necessary anyway, but I need to look into it.
Anyway, it will take me some time, but if the steel can actually take a good edge I should be fine and perhaps I will have learned something useful.
I also got these, to have something inexpensive to test reshaping and handles on (who knows, perhaps they can even take an edge..)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250927457872?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

As for the slipstones, I could not find local arkansas and India at a decent price (e.g. less than 50 USD), but for a few which would have to come from the US
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hard-Arkansas-Small-Slip-File-Sharpening-Stone-2-1-2-x-1-x-1-4-/361311485712?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541fd7bf10
Otherwise, aluminium-oxide ones are quite affordable, and the japanese too:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7PC-Assorted-Tool-Sharpening-Stone-Set-180-240-Grit-Various-Shapes-Slipstones-/371351046728?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item56763f4a48
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/King-Ice-Bear-Slipstone-Small-Grit-1000-Sharpening-Stone-for-Carving-Chisels-/191089192376?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c7dcdadb8
Are this for removing the burr after honing?
Now, I know I sound like a complete cheapskate but, what I do with my turning gauges is to turn a dowel to size, wrap it in sand paper at different grits, and use that. Is it a bad idea?

Ebay worked out better for the planes, I have got a jack number 4 (5 would have been better, but good price and in good shape), a palm plane which I hope will turn up useful for octagonal handles, boxes and some work on already turned stuff too, and two stanley 151 spokeshaves, flat and round bottom.
It will take me a while to get reasonably good at setting them up and sharpening them, but as you say the neardenthal section contains lots of advice.

What you say about end-grain and cutting boards makes a lot of sense. Thing is, I had no clue about splitting and riving until you pointed me to Follansbee's site, which in turn lead me to
https://davidffisherblog.wordpress.com/ .
Thanks so much, they are both amazing artisans (artists? surely Fisher's bowls have something to them which impressed me) and their craftmanship is astonishing, at least to my beginner's eyes. Even spiritually it is a world away from most woodworking things online.
Now I am reconsidering the few handles I turned in the past, as they all have the grain running parallel to the blade. They have not split yet, but they might well do. And I suppose hammering on end grain is not a good idea, for the ones I need to make.
Size-wise, the slabs I have which would be suitable for middle-sized chopping boards are unfortunately not hard wood. Some giant acacia my neighbour felled a while ago and some walnut.
So, it will be cheese boards for now. My wife does like cheese boards though :)
Perhaps I'll run into some oak or similar in the future.

Thanks so much for the tips on preventing splitting on small carvings, I'll make sure to keep the piece wet while roughing out.

And again, sorry for replying so late. I really needed to think and research a bit beforehand but it took me ages.

Best,
Aldo

[Karl Andersson]

Hi Aldo,
it sounds like you're off to a good start, as long as you can get the chisels to hold a sharp edge; if they don't, Axminster might be customer-friendly enough to take them back and send another set - knowing the quality can vary from day to day and with each production run in some factories. As far as the bevel angle, I usually keep mine fairly shallow - about 25 degrees- which works very well for medium and softer woods and also is fine for hardwoods if you don't try to cut too deeply at once. Those unhandled blade you got look interesting - if they are good tool steel and the right hardness, you can make a nice set of tools; although with no bolster on the shaft, you're mainly limited to making "push" chisels (no mallet). Yes, you could make strike-able tools, but you'd have to use a very hard wood that didn't split easily and definitely put stong ferrules and maybe hoops on them, or engineer some other way to keep the end of the tang from splitting the wood. If you're adventurous and think the steel is worth it, you could also grind the ends of the tangs into more of a taper and make thick, square-holed washers to press-fit onto the shaft about 3cm from the end. I posted a while ago about making a mortise chisel from a file and used that technique -it worked just fine. the only reason I'm going into this is that the steel looks pretty thick, so those might make good struck chisels.

I've read so often on UK Blogger's sites that they constantly find excellent old tools at boot sales - like I almost never do- so look there if you have some nearby. almost any of the old Sheffield makers are good as long as you have some blade left to sharpen.

Concerning the slipstones you showed - the one is 1000 grit- that's more of a sharpening, pre-honing/ stropping grit for me. Unless a carving tool is chipped or had to be re-ground, I start with 1000 India, then hard arkansas (or 5 micron abrasive sheet), then hone with a leather strop, either straight/ flat or the flexcut. I also use dowels and grooved boards charged with honing compound, depending on which tool it is. Abrasive sheets are perfectly acceptable, as long as you can get the finer grits; Lee Valley has a decent assortment, but shipping may be obnoxious for you - read the descriptions and see if you can get it locally: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072 and to make life easier, make a few sets like this that match your blades; you can "pinch" papers on them for sharpening and also charge them with compound for honing: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69439&cat=1,43072

I'm not sure if I misled you about the grain in the handles - you want your tool handles to have nice, straight grain parallel with the tang of the tool. if you're going to use a mallet, then the tool needs a decent bolster and you should put a ferrule on it. The struck end would definitely be end grain and normally doesn't need any metal as long as you only use wooden mallets on it.

I have no expreience with Acacia, but according to this cutting board blog (really?), it is a very good wood for them: http://www.cuttingboard.com/blog/why-acacia-is-becoming-a-popular-wood-for-cutting-boards/. As for the walnut, is is wonderful carving wood and you can make much nicer things than a cutting board with it. The cheese board is a nice start (you can even make a wood-bladed knife if you find some thin boxwood or dogwood or similar to pin into a walnut handle). if you think vertically, you can make clocks, key racks, or jewelry hangers like my avatar; many things that don't involve chopping veggies on them.

I look forward to seeing your progress - any questions along the way are welcome
Karl