Entering into the world of CNC

[Tomi Ogunleye]

Hi everyone, I, like many before me am interested into entering into the world of CNC woodworking.
I am a relatively new woodworker - started out as a small hobby about 3 years ago and have progressed to doing more and more projects for the house, for gifts, and for friends. Last year, I started making some children's toy and furniture pieces and began selling them locally and through some online outlets. I figured, if I could sell a couple of items a month, it would allow me to purchase new tools faster and saw it as a way to support the hobby. A year into it, I now see a need to use CNC machining to reduce the variability in the items I am selling and to make the manufacturing more efficient so I can meet the demand I am seeing and also create time to work on other projects that I have for the small business I created. I have a garage-based shop that I work out of when I'm home from work and not spending time with my wife and three kids under 4yo so there have been a lot of late-late nights with saws running - thankfully my kids sleep through all of it and my neighbors haven't complained yet. I consider myself very tech-savvy and have some experience doing CAD work with Solidworks and hope some of that experience will make my venture into CNC woodworking and use of the associated design software a little smoother.

Initial research was and has been overwhelming and I my "budget" or what I'm willing to invest in my first CNC machine has more than doubled in the several months I've been researching. I started off trying to find a used machine but had no luck there. Then I looked into 2x4 sized machines knowing that even that size wasn't large enough to hold a workpiece large enough for some of the items I currently sell. At that point, I was considering an Axiom Autoroute 8 that I learned about at Rockler. I have since moved to looking at 4x4 sized machines and I don't believe I can go any larger right now with the setup I have.

I am at a place where I am considering two options and maybe a distant third. I am looking seriously at a Laguna Tools Swift 4x4 machine and a CAMaster Stinger II SR-44. The very distant third (since I am considering the Laguna machine) is purchasing a similar machine from China and saving on costs and taking on the customer support risks associated with that move.
I have poured over forums and have heard a lot of things about the Laguna machines and I still feel comfortable moving in that direction. The CAMaster machine is one that I initially considered too far out of my price range especially if I wanted to add options such as the T-slot table and spindle. However, as my realization of what I need to do to equip myself for success and try to experience the least amount of frustration evolved, the CAMaster machine has come back into the picture.

I want to ask the CNC community here if there are other things I should consider when making this investment and if there is any helpful insight you could offer to someone in my position.

Thanks so much!
Tomi

[Keith Westfall]

Lots of choices, and about as many opinions in the CNC world. I looked (and wished) for a long time and ended up with the Probotix Meteor. (add a.com and it will get you there!)

I went in knowing nothing about CNC (and still not a lot) but what I liked about this one was that it came assembled, tested, and ready to run out of the box. Just had to put the router on. It comes with it's own dedicated computer so no coding, de-bugging or other things. I coupled it with Aspire, and I have not regretted a minute of it. I'm into it all for some serious dollars, but it works, and the one problem I did have (jammed up against a limit switch) took one phone call and about 15 minutes of their and my time.

I have nothing else to compare it with, had never even seen one before it showed up. Will it be the end all to end all? Don't know yet. Don't have any idea how far I will take it yet, so for now it seems to do all I need to do.

All I know is I am having fun!

I got the Aspire software about 4 months before I got my Meteor, so had lots of time to play with it. Seemed to help, and I have enough stuff drawn up to cut steady for the next few years, but it allowed lots of learning time.

Just my $.02

[Art Mann]

I wish you could go to the Camaster factory in Cartersville, GA and get a demo and meet the guys who design and build the products. I did and I ordered one on the spot. It has been a year and 4 months now and my only regret is that I didn't spend more and buy a larger machine. I have the benefit of living less than 4 hours from the factory. The other machines you mention may be good but they were designed snd built by someone 7000 miles away who can not speak my language. I like the ability to talk to the guy who designed the machine any time I need help.

[Tomi Ogunleye]

Thank you for the responses so far. I actually live in Atlanta so Cartersville is less than an hour away from me. It is a great idea to schedule a visit.

While evaluating all of this, one thing that became obvious is that there are tiers of machines options at least as far as their makeup and construction go. Once I decided on a size, what am I considering that will lead me to a heavy duty machine like the Camaster or a much cheaper machine like the ones offered by
Zenbot?

I hope to do this for years to come and hope to increase my skill and use of the machine I purchase. What will I be limited to if I went with a Zenbot-type machine that have specs that look adequate?

[Bruce Page]

Tomi, if you are that close to Camaster you owe it to yourself to make the trip. I bought my Camaster Stinger after a couple of years researching the different entry level machines. I feel the Camaster Stinger series is a notch or two above most if not all of the competition. There are several members on the Camheads forum that run their machines all day, everyday as an integral part of their business.
One more note, regardless of what machine you choose, if you can swing a spindle, do it! I am soooo glad that I chose the 1.7kw spindle over the standard PC router.

[Jerome Stanek]

You could also look at the Shopbots they are in Durham. You may get more bang for your buck as you can get a 4x4 and later upgrade it to a 4x8 or larger easily.

[Keith Outten]

I'm a fan of steel frames, welded steel is prefered. Imagine your CNC Router moving very fast and changing directions quickly in X, Y and Z as it will do if your machining a lithophane. When the whole structure is shaking how can you maintain any tolerance?

For my money a welded frame and a large bed are more important then most other options. You can live without vacuum systems and spindles on your first machine so you will have what you need to fund your second machine assuming you are doing commercial work. Unlike Bruce I prefer a router motor over a spindle for several reasons such as the initial cost and the the cost to rebuild them. Router motors are cheap, when they are worn you throw them in the trash can and install another one.....your back up and running in five minutes. While this isn't as important to a hobby it can get serious when you are contracted to produce several hundred signs on a tight deadline. You cannot be down for weeks waiting for a spindle to be repaired. If you own two CNC Routers this becomes less important.

Visit CAMaster last and that is the machine you will purchase unless of course you have the funds to move up to one of the big iron CNC Routers. ShopBot also makes a good machine. My first CNC Router was a ShopBot PRT Alpha with a 48 by 96 table and it was a solid machine. I also ran a ShopBot PRT Alpha in the sign shop at Christopher Newport University that had a spindle.

[Chad Fitzgerald]

I am in the same spot you are in Tomi, but i will be ordering mine this week hopefully. I am getting a Shopsabre RC4. American made, Minnesota. Worth checking out in my opinion. I was close to getting a Camaster until i checked into Shopsabre. I have seen both run. Liked both. They seem very similar in many ways, construction, quality, and price. I have spoke to owners of both. everyone seems happy with which ever one they own.
What tilted me to Shopsabre was, what comes standard with shopsabre, is an add on with Camaster.
RC4 machine has cut area of 49x55 compared to 48x48, 8" Z height compared to 6, larger motors, larger router,
alot of the upgrades i will want later on i am able to do here in my shop. Im starting with basic setup, will want a spindle down the road, possibly an ATC, both i can upgrade here.
Camaster has a GREAT forum, which is worth something.
Its worth checking out. from my research you would be happy with either company. i just think you get more for your dollar with the shopsabre.
my 2 cents

[William Adams]

You haven't said much about budget --- for the most part, CNC seems to be one gets what one pays for.

The new third version of the Shapeoko seems to be the closest a machine gets to punching above its weight class in terms of price-performance (and insofar as is possible is sourced w/in the U.S.). It's so good, I've actually been worried that they won't be able to continue to offer it at the current price. I can't be considered as objective though, having been involved w/ the project since the early days and having gotten two free machines (an SO2 for doing the instructions and an SO3, just because).

Might be you'd find the Shapeoko wiki of interest to just research CNC in general --- I'd be interested in any questions which you might have which it doesn't answer, and would also like to know of other similar resources.

There is a list of different machines on the wiki page for the hobbycnc subreddit --- it'd be great to fill that out for comparison's sake.

[William Adams]

My big suggestion for people considering CNC is to do a full-on simulation of the work-flow:

- get a CAD program and draw a part
- get a CAM program and create the G-code for it
- sketch up how you would affix the part in place on the machine for cutting --- if need be, draw up your workholding in a CAD program as well
- get a CNC simulator and load the G-code into it and run it (there's a link to a full machine simulator on the Shapeoko wiki entry page)

If you can get all the way through doing that and don't find it intolerable, then a CNC may work out well for you. There are some people whom that doesn't suit though. YMMV.

[Jerome Stanek]

I'm a fan of steel frames, welded steel is prefered. Imagine your CNC Router moving very fast and changing directions quickly in X, Y and Z as it will do if your machining a lithophane. When the whole structure is shaking how can you maintain any tolerance?

For my money a welded frame and a large bed are more important then most other options. You can live without vacuum systems and spindles on your first machine so you will have what you need to fund your second machine assuming you are doing commercial work. Unlike Bruce I prefer a router motor over a spindle for several reasons such as the initial cost and the the cost to rebuild them. Router motors are cheap, when they are worn you throw them in the trash can and install another one.....your back up and running in five minutes. While this isn't as important to a hobby it can get serious when you are contracted to produce several hundred signs on a tight deadline. You cannot be down for weeks waiting for a spindle to be repaired. If you own two CNC Routers this becomes less important.

Visit CAMaster last and that is the machine you will purchase unless of course you have the funds to move up to one of the big iron CNC Routers. ShopBot also makes a good machine. My first CNC Router was a ShopBot PRT Alpha with a 48 by 96 table and it was a solid machine. I also ran a ShopBot PRT Alpha in the sign shop at Christopher Newport University that had a spindle.

If you are worried about the moving of the unit cutting a lithophane than you are very wrong as it will not get up to speed cutting one. Just run a test at 1.5 IPS and 12 IPS and see the difference it how long it takes. My Shopbot does not jump around like you say. You are now comparing an old Shopbot to a new one that is like comparing the first Camaster with the new Camaster That Camaster will not support any more.

[Tomi Ogunleye]

When I started looking into CNC machines I hoped that I would be able to get what I needed for about $6000. I had some wiggle room but have now made adjustments and have increased the budget to about $12000. If I can get what I need for anything less than that, of course I would be happy to do so but I am understanding that in this case it may not be possible.

William, thanks for the suggestion. I have started doing some design with Solidworks and a trial version of VCarve but wasn't aware that I could go through the whole process with a machine simulator. This will be perfect for me.

[Keith Outten]

If you are worried about the moving of the unit cutting a lithophane than you are very wrong as it will not get up to speed cutting one. Just run a test at 1.5 IPS and 12 IPS and see the difference it how long it takes. My Shopbot does not jump around like you say. You are now comparing an old Shopbot to a new one that is like comparing the first Camaster with the new Camaster That Camaster will not support any more.

Jerome,

You may be right as the ShopBot I was using at the time was built in 2007. I haven't seen any of the newer models. I still feel that a welded frame will always be more stable than any that are bolted.
.

[Bruce Page]

12K will get you real close to a Camaster 48"x48" SR44. The Camaster machines are pretty much turn-key. The control PC, monitor, WinCNC industrial controller, & dust boot are all part of the package. About all you need to add is design software & cutters.

[Ross Moshinsky]

For $12k you have a few choices.

1. New 4x4 welded steel CNC machine (CAMaster is an example)
2. New 4x8 "light industrial" CNC machine kit. This will also cover software, bits, ect. (CNCRouterParts is an example)
3. Used 4x8 CNC machine. What you get depends on the deal you can find. You should easily be able to find a used ShopBot with a lot of extras (software, bits, ect). If you're lucky, you can find something the next level up.

The important thing about CNC routers is to budget for everything. You need a dust collection system. That's a few hundred. You need software. That can be several thousand. You need bits. That's easily a few hundred bucks. Computer, spoil board, clamps, ect ect ect. It all adds up. It's very easy to say "hey, I can get this machine for $7000" but that might only be 60-70% of your budget.

[Chris Corwin]

For that money you could find a nice used Techno LC4896. 4x8, servos, welded frame and ballscrews just about everything you could ask for. You can still get replacement parts through Armor CNC.

I have used and built many but I OWN a LC4896.

[Roy Harding]

For $12k you have a few choices.

1. New 4x4 welded steel CNC machine (CAMaster is an example)
2. New 4x8 "light industrial" CNC machine kit. This will also cover software, bits, ect. (CNCRouterParts is an example)
3. Used 4x8 CNC machine. What you get depends on the deal you can find. You should easily be able to find a used ShopBot with a lot of extras (software, bits, ect). If you're lucky, you can find something the next level up.

The important thing about CNC routers is to budget for everything. You need a dust collection system. That's a few hundred. You need software. That can be several thousand. You need bits. That's easily a few hundred bucks. Computer, spoil board, clamps, ect ect ect. It all adds up. It's very easy to say "hey, I can get this machine for $7000" but that might only be 60-70% of your budget.

This. Absolutely. Ross is dead on.

[james mcgrew]

All good info.. I have owned all models of the CAMasters over the years and as a commercial end user I go with the Money makers.. I will say that the one point that matters and not mentioned here is of all the machines mentioned here mine and most all CAMasters including my original 99 model 408 brought 75+ % of original value at resell..

Go see plants, go see shops, do lots of due diligence is a 60% risk factor better than a 95 and how much is that worth

[Jerome Stanek]

If you do want to sell it you will get most of your money back with a Shopbot also. I sold my first one for the same as I paid for it so that is 100% of my money back. The one I have now I could get 95% of what I paid for it.

[james mcgrew]

There is No Issue that the fluke of Market has led to some good deals, I once bought a used machine and doubled my money, However some come here looking for us who have travelled the CNC road to not blow smoke and mess with their expectations. this can lead to disastrous purchases and ruin what could have been otherwise a really good CNC venture. My hope is any post I make is realistic and based on common experiences.. Used car dealers make profits on old cars daily. Not so good for the small buyer.

[Tomi Ogunleye]

I visited the Camaster offices this past week and was very impressed by my visit. I spent about an hour and a half asking questions and learning about the company and how the components are sourced and how the machines are made and supported. I was also able to get a list of some people in my area who have Stinger IIs who I will be able to visit their shops and use as references.

Unfortunately a Stinger II with the options I would like ends up costing over 17k with a 9+ week lead time that is only getting longer. I really like the machine and the company but will have to take some more time to consider if I can invest that amount right now.

Thank you you all for your responses so far and I will keep you updated with my decision.

[Bruce Page]

Check out the Camheads classifieds. There's a 1 year old upgraded Stinger II 48x48 with hurricane vacuum system for $11,500.

[james mcgrew]

They are Damn Good machines, Hence the pricing and lead times. I have reason to believe the machine in Ft Lauderdale has been sold.

[Martin Wasner]

I am in the same spot you are in Tomi, but i will be ordering mine this week hopefully. I am getting a Shopsabre RC4. American made, Minnesota. Worth checking out in my opinion. I was close to getting a Camaster until i checked into Shopsabre. I have seen both run. Liked both. They seem very similar in many ways, construction, quality, and price. I have spoke to owners of both. everyone seems happy with which ever one they own.
What tilted me to Shopsabre was, what comes standard with shopsabre, is an add on with Camaster.
RC4 machine has cut area of 49x55 compared to 48x48, 8" Z height compared to 6, larger motors, larger router,
alot of the upgrades i will want later on i am able to do here in my shop. Im starting with basic setup, will want a spindle down the road, possibly an ATC, both i can upgrade here.
Camaster has a GREAT forum, which is worth something.
Its worth checking out. from my research you would be happy with either company. i just think you get more for your dollar with the shopsabre.
my 2 cents


The Shopsabre's are built 20 minutes from my house and 35 minutes from my shop. I've recently decided that a CNC is in my future, and they are high on the list just because of their proximity. It goes down, I know I can get a someone over in a hurry One of these months I'll have a free afternoon to take a field trip and listen to their pitch on why I should buy their product over a Beisse, Buselletto or whatever.