Used Table Saw

[John Leech]

I'm going on Wednesday to look at a used table saw to replace my long suffering Ryobi Bt3000. Saw is a Grizzly G1023SL and asking price is below $700. Can anyone offer up suggestions as to what to look for when I examine the saw and determine what I'm willing to pay. I've been saving my money and have pretty much set my sights on the Grizzly G0715P, but if I can get a good cabinet saw, albeit used, for considerably less then it seems a better purchase.

Thanks,
John Leech

[Kent Adams]

There are more educated folks on this subject on these forums than me that can answer that question. I looked recently at a used SawStop PCS and came away unimpressed with how it had been treated overall. I figured if it looks roughed up on the outside, and its only 2 years old, what has happened to the interior? Maybe its fine, but I didn't feel comfortable with it. I dunno, but I'll definitely be following this thread to see what others recommend you look at.

[Harold Weaver]

John,
As a buyer of mostly vintage American made equipment, I feel it is important to look over the machine very closely, especially at that price point. Take a decent steel rule, make sure the top is flat or within tolerance. Pull the motor cover and dust doors and inspect the inner workings with a flash light. Cracked or broken castings is a deal breaker. Electrical cords are usually of little consequence to me, since my stance is to rewire all machines that I buy, but some are not inclined to do so, so make sure the wiring is good as well as the switches and mag starter. See how it cuts and how the motor runs obviously. Utilize the raise and tilt cranks, run them all the way to their stops, and look for any binding or sloppiness. These are easy fixes, but can be good price negotiation points. Top rusty? Surface rust can be dealt with fairly easy with WD40 and scotch brite pads, but deep pitting from rust or chemicals on the top is another issue.

Motor and arbor bearings could be an issue as well, not hard to replace. You did not mention how old the saw is, but as a rule of thumb, you can expect about 20 years out of bearings before the grease dries out on them and they have to be replaced; amount of use on the saw is not really a factor, but age is.

If there is something you see that you do not like about the saw, it is best to walk away and wait another day. Cabinet saws show up almost daily. I will generally buy one in ten used machines that I look at, simply because there is something wrong with them that I do not want to deal with. Restoring an older machine is enough work as it is, I'd rather start with something complete and in working order to begin with if I can and avoid hunting down parts and making fixes...

[Art Mann]

That particular model is an older generation and is no longer made. I don't believe it has the upgrades for safety and dust collection. The asking price is over half the price of a new generation model. It would have to be in excellent condition inside and out for me to pay that much.

[scott spencer]

I have the Shop Fox equivalent of the same saw....W1677. Bought in new in 2008....it's been a great saw. You can easily slide the front rail over for more rip capacity if you want.

If it checks out, I think it'll be a nice upgrade from the G0715P. As with any used saw, check the overall condition to see if it's been well cared for....dirt, saw dust, and minor rust are easily cleaned up. Neglect is more of a concern, but may not be a show stopper if it runs properly or has minor issues that can easily be corrected. Check under the hood for any obvious cracks are breaks to the undercarriage. Spin the blade by hand and listen for bearing noise. Run the saw and see if it sounds normal. I check for gross problems with flatness, but don't generally get too worked up about it unless its bad enough to effect the cut quality. Check that the fence is straight. $700 isn't a bad price IMO, but $600-$650 would be better!

[John Donhowe]

Can't add much to costs already made, except to support the suggestion to walk away if there's something that you don't like. I've regretted buying tools that were "mostly okay" for me- the initial small defects kept bugging me. Even if it's a great price, it's not a good deal if it's not what you'd be happy with.

I've used a Ryobi BT3100 myself for many years, and still think that in their price niche the BT's offer the best value, with a lot of flexibility and innovations. I'm sure, though, that you'll be very satisfied with an upgrade to a more substantial hybrid or cabinet saw. A few months ago I upgraded to a Craftsman 22116 (granite top hybrid) I got through Sears Outlet, and couldn't be happier with the switch. Good luck with the G1023, or whatever saw you end up with!

[Ray Newman]

Agree whole heartily with what John Donhowe posted above. Do you have any idea as to what that saw or comparable saws sold for in your area? I think that when new, this saw sold for about US$900.00.

This may be important to you: according to Grizzly on-line information, this saw is discontinued and does not have a riving knife. It is not listed in the 2015 catalog.

I would bring a piece of scrap, long section of 1" wood dowel, and an accurate square for test cut to check the arbor bearings. If they will not permit a test cut, pull the saw's blade insert and place the dowel on the arbor and the other end to your ear. Have someone slowly rotate the blade by hand and if the bearings are bad or worn, you will hear a grinding noise. Really good bearings are not that expensive, but can a be PITA to replace.

Raise, lower, and tilt the blade for proper functioning.

If there is no test cut permitted, ask them to turn it on/off to check switch.

Check fence for lock down and ease of movement. A long straight edge will show if it is "dead-nuts" flat or is warped.

Move miter gauge up and down both slots and watch for tightness/looseness.

Look for any missing parts, motor cover, dust port, miter gauge, blade guard, etc.. Is there a manual and parts diagram. Any obvious damage or wear to the cabinet and cast iron top.

Watched a Fellow Woodworker conduct a rough check for miter gauge slot parallel by placing a small piece of scrap in the front of the miter gauge slot, and in the other slot, place the adjustable square head sliding the rule to the scrap. And without moving the rule length, he moved the square to the rear of slot, and slid the scrap up to it in the other slot.I think a more A more accurate measure would be to use a feeler gauge between the scrap and end of the rule.

[John Leech]

Was able to ask a few follow up questions earlier today. Saw was purchased in 2006 and has seen 'light' use, whatever that means. It'll be curious to see how this goes. I've seen the ad for a month or so and original asking price was $1500, which included an Incra LS. They have since offered just the saw. Picture of saw makes it appear very clean, but I don't see the original rails and fence in the background, which would obviously be a deal breaker at that price point. Saw does appear to have the router table extension and mobile base. No mention of whether it comes with saw or not, but certainly a point of discussion.

Some have mentioned lack of a riving knife. I've never used a saw with one and while it may be naive of me to say so, I've always viewed using a table saw as a dangerous proposition much like handling a firearm. If treated with respect and all the safety rules followed, you'll be fine. I've run my BT3000 for 15 years without a riving knife and have always followed safe practices with one exception where I was plain lucky. I learned from that experience.

At this point I plan on bringing some scrap oak, straight edge, square, flashlight and tools to give it the once over. If it looks good and no red flags pop up I'll make an offer. Oh, I'll also need a thirsty friend with a strong back!

[scott spencer]

The original fence for that saw would have been the Shop Fox Classic, or the Shop Fox Original fence. Without a fence, it's worth closer to $400 IMO.

[Larry Frank]

I could not pass up the comment about the riving knife. It is a very important piece of safety equipment. Even with the best of intentions, any mis alignment when ripping can toss a board back at you. A split second of inattention can result in a kick back.

I wish that you would rethink your comment about a riving knife.

[Dave Cav]

I believe it's a standard left tilt cabinet saw. I had it's right tilt brother for a number of years before I got my Delta 12/14. It's essentially a clone of the Unisaw and a good, solid basic saw. There has been some good info above about what to check. I think the price is a little high, but it should be a good user if everything checks out. No, it doesn't have a riving knife, but you should be able to fit it with a simple splitter which is nearly as good as far as I'm concerned.

[Dennis Aspö]

I've had a riving knife on my saw, I don't see an issue with it, it doesn't protrude above the top of the blade and there are no doodads and gadgets hanging from it (urgh for those designs) so it just sits there, doing nothing. Except when it does what it's supposed to.

I've had a few times when I knew I would have had a kickback or similar happen to me, but I saw the riving knife stop the piece before it could be launched. Everytime I cut something on the table saw I breathe a little easier when one end of the piece reaches the knife, then I know it's safe, this cut is no longer likely to get caught in the blade and it's held to the fence.

[Mike Cutler]

The original fence for that saw would have been the Shop Fox Classic, or the Shop Fox Original fence. Without a fence, it's worth closer to $400 IMO.

I have to agree with Scott. That saw new was right around $1K in 2006. It was,is, a well regarded table saw by the folks that have them. Without a fence though,,,,,,

If he has the original fence put away somewhere, and it comes with the saw, I'd probably start at $500-$550, and go up.

[John Leech]

Larry,

did not mean to imply that the riving knife was an unnecessary piece of safety equipment on a table saw, but merely to comment that the fact the saw was made before riving knives were readily available (required?) is not a deal breaker in my book. While a riving knife certainly makes a saw safer to operate, so does a splitter and a blade guard and I wouldn't consider running a table saw without either of them.

John

[Art Mann]

It is an absolute miracle! I have operated several different table saws over 40 years and at times it was all day every day. None of those saws even had a guard on it, much less a splitter or riving knife. I learned the principles of safe operation in shop class in about 1970 and they have kept me safe ever since. A riving knife is a good thing to have if you are cutting reactionary wood or the work piece is getting into a bind but is better still to recognize the behavior of such material and take the appropriate measures.

The OP said he operated a BT3000 for 15 years without incident. I conclude he has acquired the same safety skills I have.

[john lawson]

Was able to ask a few follow up questions earlier today. Saw was purchased in 2006 and has seen 'light' use, whatever that means. It'll be curious to see how this goes. I've seen the ad for a month or so and original asking price was $1500, which included an Incra LS. They have since offered just the saw. Picture of saw makes it appear very clean, but I don't see the original rails and fence in the background, which would obviously be a deal breaker at that price point. Saw does appear to have the router table extension and mobile base. No mention of whether it comes with saw or not, but certainly a point of discussion.

Some have mentioned lack of a riving knife. I've never used a saw with one and while it may be naive of me to say so, I've always viewed using a table saw as a dangerous proposition much like handling a firearm. If treated with respect and all the safety rules followed, you'll be fine. I've run my BT3000 for 15 years without a riving knife and have always followed safe practices with one exception where I was plain lucky. I learned from that experience.

At this point I plan on bringing some scrap oak, straight edge, square, flashlight and tools to give it the once over. If it looks good and no red flags pop up I'll make an offer. Oh, I'll also need a thirsty friend with a strong back!

I would not call you naive for dismissing a riving knife because you have a lot of experience, but I would urge you to reconsider and watch a few youtube videos which show kickback. I would not consider buying another saw without a riving knife.

A tablesaw with the riving knife engineered correctly and set up properly is not only safer, in my humble opinion it will give you piece of mind when you get used to it; especially if your family or friends use the saw.

Good luck

[Mike Chalmers]

It is an absolute miracle! I have operated several different table saws over 40 years and at times it was all day every day. None of those saws even had a guard on it, much less a splitter or riving knife. I learned the principles of safe operation in shop class in about 1970 and they have kept me safe ever since. A riving knife is a good thing to have if you are cutting reactionary wood or the work piece is getting into a bind but is better still to recognize the behavior of such material and take the appropriate measures.

The OP said he operated a BT3000 for 15 years without incident. I conclude he has acquired the same safety skills I have.

Maybe so, however, safety measures can only add to the experience. We all know that safety measures such as a riving knife are unnecessary most of the time. When they are needed, they are needed. Simple as that.

[Larry Frank]

I did not mean to start a wild discussion about using a riving knife..I believe that they are important table saw safety device. Yes, there are those who have operated a table saw for year without a riving knife or guard and never had an accident. My hats off to them.

But in the long run, you will be safer having a riving knife on the saw.

[scott spencer]

...But in the long run, you will be safer having a riving knife on the saw.

Indeed. Sometimes we can get lucky for incredibly long periods of time....nothing gained by taking unnecessary chances.

[John Leech]

Just want to follow up to let everyone know how my afternoon went saw shopping. Drove to the gentleman's house and, like many, he had his shop set up in his garage. After spending about 30 minutes getting a tour of his shop,and his extremely well maintained, and I would infer, seldom used tools,we set to looking at the saw. Top showed very little signs of rust and no abuse. A look under the hood showed no cracks on the trunnions and slight caking of dust. Saw ran smooth and with no vibration. Quite an improvement from my BT3000! Miter slots were smooth. He said he had declared the stock miter gauge worthless and had thrown it away and replaced it with a rockler gauge. Saw had a mobile base, extension table with router cut out, original fence, and tenoning jig. After about 90 minutes I drove away with saw for $600. I feel as if that was a fair deal for both parties, but time will tell. The saw will certainly be an upgrade from my BT.

Thanks for all your help in this process.

John

[James Baker SD]

let me be the first to say. "no picture--didn't happen"

Congratulations.

[John Leech]

LOL, James! Let me reassemble from the move and make it happen!

[Art Mann]

Indeed. Sometimes we can get lucky for incredibly long periods of time....nothing gained by taking unnecessary chances.

Sometimes, a person's knowledge and skill, rather than blind chance, keep him safe. I don't think it is very nice of you to imply that my 40 years of safe table saw use is due to chance. You have obviously never been a student of probabilities and statistics or you wouldn't claim such an improbable thing. If you only have a small budget and you need a 3 hp cabinet saw, then buying an older model is not taking unnecessary chance. It is a practical necessity.

[Mike Chalmers]

Sometimes, a person's knowledge and skill, rather than blind chance, keep him safe. I don't think it is very nice of you to imply that my 40 years of safe table saw use is due to chance. You have obviously never been a student of probabilities and statistics or you wouldn't claim such an improbable thing. If you only have a small budget and you need a 3 hp cabinet saw, then buying an older model is not taking unnecessary chance. It is a practical necessity.

Comments are not about the age of the saw or the safety technology employed. They are about not using safety equipment at all.

Your record of operation without mishap is impressive, but, hardly a reason not to use safety equipment. Chance is always part of the equation. Better expressed, risk is a better terminology. Not using the equipment increases the risk of injury, not the chance of a mishap, that would remain constant.

[scott spencer]

Sometimes, a person's knowledge and skill, rather than blind chance, keep him safe. I don't think it is very nice of you to imply that my 40 years of safe table saw use is due to chance. You have obviously never been a student of probabilities and statistics or you wouldn't claim such an improbable thing. If you only have a small budget and you need a 3 hp cabinet saw, then buying an older model is not taking unnecessary chance. It is a practical necessity.

You're free to operate in any manner you wish....you obviously have more skill than most of us. I'm of the school of thought that no one is 100% consistent at being 100% in control of every cut and action that takes place on a TS...we're humans, and we make mistakes or have lapses in judgement from time to time, and sometimes unexpected and/or unpredictable things happen. Even the most seasoned and experienced among us, which may or may not be you, rely on some level of good fortune (chance) to operate a saw over a long period of time without mishap. I happen to think it's less than ideal to suggest to a large group that could include absolute newbs, that not having a splitter or riving knife is an acceptable and safe practice. It's better to possess knowledge of safe practice and still use some sort of a splitter or riving knife IMO.

[Mike Cutler]

Just want to follow up to let everyone know how my afternoon went saw shopping. Drove to the gentleman's house and, like many, he had his shop set up in his garage. After spending about 30 minutes getting a tour of his shop,and his extremely well maintained, and I would infer, seldom used tools,we set to looking at the saw. Top showed very little signs of rust and no abuse. A look under the hood showed no cracks on the trunnions and slight caking of dust. Saw ran smooth and with no vibration. Quite an improvement from my BT3000! Miter slots were smooth. He said he had declared the stock miter gauge worthless and had thrown it away and replaced it with a rockler gauge. Saw had a mobile base, extension table with router cut out, original fence, and tenoning jig. After about 90 minutes I drove away with saw for $600. I feel as if that was a fair deal for both parties, but time will tell. The saw will certainly be an upgrade from my BT.

Thanks for all your help in this process.

John

John

Congrat's on your new table saw. $600.00 seems like a nice deal too me, for what was included. It won't take much "time to tell". ;)
The 1023 from Grizzly seemed to always get a lot of positive feedback and reviews from folks on this forum and others. I'm sure you'll find a lot of difference between it and the saw you currently have.

[Patrick Curry]

John, i think we've probably shared the same experiences on under powered table saws. I've got a 1960's era hybrid running on a 1hp motor. Kickbacks have never been an issue because I can nearly over power that motor with a firm grip. Frankly, it's a blessing and a curse. But for safety reasons I'm glad to have started out with this setup.

I'm also looking for a new saw. It will have a larger motor and I'll have new safety considerations, like the kickbacks I could once overpower.



Larry,

did not mean to imply that the riving knife was an unnecessary piece of safety equipment on a table saw, but merely to comment that the fact the saw was made before riving knives were readily available (required?) is not a deal breaker in my book. While a riving knife certainly makes a saw safer to operate, so does a splitter and a blade guard and I wouldn't consider running a table saw without either of them.

John

[Art Mann]

Scott and Mike, you didn't address the other half of my post. The OP needed a 3 hp cabinet saw. He had a budget that wouldn't allow him to buy a new one. What you were telling him is that he doesn't have enough money to upgrade his saw without getting hurt. The silly part is that he had already done so for 15 straight years. Are you guys trying to tell me with a straight face that his success was an accident too? I doubt very much that you have ever been in the production woodworking environment or you would know just how many craftsmen use these old instruments of death without the latest safety features for a 30 or 40 year career without getting hurt. Up until the last few years, everybody used a table saw like that. I am going to turn it around the other way. How would you feel if I told you that anyone who feels he can't operate an old style cabinet saw without eventually getting hurt shouldn't be using a table saw of any kind until he gets additional training?

I agree that if budget permits, a person should buy equipment with the latest safety features. However, a budget that dictates only used equipment doesn't inevitably lead to disaster.

[glenn bradley]

After about 90 minutes I drove away with saw for $600. I feel as if that was a fair deal for both parties, but time will tell. The saw will certainly be an upgrade from my BT.

My eyes! My eyes! There's something wrong with my eyes!!!


let me be the first to say. "no picture--didn't happen"


LOL, James! Let me reassemble from the move and make it happen!

Oh . . . . Whew, that's a relief.

[scott spencer]

Scott and Mike, you didn't address the other half of my post. The OP needed a 3 hp cabinet saw. He had a budget that wouldn't allow him to buy a new one. What you were telling him is that he doesn't have enough money to upgrade his saw without getting hurt. The silly part is that he had already done so for 15 straight years. Are you guys trying to tell me with a straight face that his success was an accident too? I doubt very much that you have ever been in the production woodworking environment or you would know just how many craftsmen use these old instruments of death without the latest safety features for a 30 or 40 year career without getting hurt. Up until the last few years, everybody used a table saw like that. I am going to turn it around the other way. How would you feel if I told you that anyone who feels he can't operate an old style cabinet saw without eventually getting hurt shouldn't be using a table saw of any kind until he gets additional training?

I agree that if budget permits, a person should buy equipment with the latest safety features. However, a budget that dictates only used equipment doesn't inevitably lead to disaster.

It's pretty cheap and easy to add some sort of a splitter to an older saw. No reason he can't have his cake and eat it too.

[Art Mann]

Yes, I think that is a very reasonable approach if the saw has provisions to mount one. I have actually seen throat plates modified to accommodate such a thing and little splitters that are designed to fit nicely.