CBN Wheels are great

[Brad Adams]

I finally broke down and ordered a CBN wheel from D-way tools on Sunday. Installed it tonight on my Delta 8" grinder. I had my Norton wheel shimmed and trued up very well. There was no way I thought a CBN wheel could be that much better. I now wish I would have purchased one a long time ago. They are that nice. Cant wait to turn something this weekend to try out all my newly sharpened tools!

[Michael Mason]

I think that is everyone's thought after they buy them. I too was surprised, and I am enjoying mine also. Enjoy!

[Thom Sturgill]

LOL standard reaction. Even some die hards have been convinced after turning on a gouge sharpened on a CBN.

The newer 'crucible metals' like V10 (Doug Thompson) or M42 (D-Way or Carter&Son) sharpen much better than on CBN as the number of microscopic carbides is much greater and the Norton wheel can only knock them out, it can not cut them. CBN can cut them and they then provide greater wear resistance so the tools stays sharp longer. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it :cool:

[Brian Kent]

I agree with Thom. I was close to replacing my Thompson bowl gouge before I got the cbn. Since I got it, the tool stays sharp much longer and a sharpening takes off much less material. The gouge will have a lot of life left.

[mike pockoski]

I've ground my first beginner gouge to bits and need a new one. Time to buy a real one (Thompson or D-way from what I can tell). I was hoping i could put off buying these wheels for a while, but y'all have convinced me to do what i already knew but was avoiding...just bite the $bullet$ and get the right stuff.

ugh...my wife is gonna kill me! (i've got the new Grizzly on its way...and just replenished my sandpaper stock...and just stocked up on CA...and just replaced my worn out carbides from Captain Eddie...and need to rewire the shop...and need a proper grinding jig...and need to rob a bank...and $$$)

will i be ok to mount this on a 6" Ryobi grinder for a while? if i tell her i've gotta go buy a new grinder too, i'll be sleeping outside!

[hu lowery]

I've ground my first beginner gouge to bits and need a new one. Time to buy a real one (Thompson or D-way from what I can tell). I was hoping i could put off buying these wheels for a while, but y'all have convinced me to do what i already knew but was avoiding...just bite the $bullet$ and get the right stuff.

ugh...my wife is gonna kill me! (i've got the new Grizzly on its way...and just replenished my sandpaper stock...and just stocked up on CA...and just replaced my worn out carbides from Captain Eddie...and need to rewire the shop...and need a proper grinding jig...and need to rob a bank...and $$$)

will i be ok to mount this on a 6" Ryobi grinder for a while? if i tell her i've gotta go buy a new grinder too, i'll be sleeping outside!



Mike,

Just in case worse comes to worst, make sure your wife has my contact info. I want dibs on most of that stuff!

I can still remember the first time my wife was standing there when the UPS man came up with a little box that was three thousand dollars. She hit the ceiling! The walls and floor too. Luckily she is a rotten shot. After that when she asked what something cost I would tell her three or four times the price. She would get upset but when I could get a word in edgewise and would tell her what it really cost then things were OK. Of course if I had told her the real price to begin with she would have gotten just as upset and I wouldn't have had a fallback position!

Hu

[mike pockoski]

Hu...some real wisdom there. I'm gonna use that approach when i break the news on why i "need" new wheels. ha! :)

[Prashun Patel]

Just think what kind of hot water we'd all be in if we bought Diamond wheels.

"No, no, I said 'a diamond wheel for a better finger nail grind', not 'diamond for the better half's finger.'"

[Dale Bonertz]

Brad,
You turn professionally if I remember correctly. I find the 180 grit seems to work well for finish cuts. For roughing you may want to think about an 80 grit wheel. I don't think the edge holds any longer than my old norton wheels. As a matter of fact I think the cbn sharpened tools don't hold an edge as long as my old wheels at least for my 3/4" bowl gouges that I use for roughing. The 80 grit helps the life of the edge some but still not like the norton wheels. Having said that I won't go back to the Norton wheels for the dust issues alone. The cbn edge seems to get sharper but doesn't last nearly as long IMO. When finish turning it lasts long enough to get down to the finish cut and one should sharpen before the final cut anyway.

[Thom Sturgill]

Brad,
You turn professionally if I remember correctly. I find the 180 grit seems to work well for finish cuts. For roughing you may want to think about an 80 grit wheel. I don't think the edge holds any longer than my old norton wheels. As a matter of fact I think the cbn sharpened tools don't hold an edge as long as my old wheels at least for my 3/4" bowl gouges that I use for roughing. The 80 grit helps the life of the edge some but still not like the norton wheels. Having said that I won't go back to the Norton wheels for the dust issues alone. The cbn edge seems to get sharper but doesn't last nearly as long IMO. When finish turning it lasts long enough to get down to the finish cut and one should sharpen before the final cut anyway.

Dale, what kind of gouges are you using? I'm interested in the metallurgy, so brand(s) not specifics unless some are powdered metal, V10, etc. If you are only using M2 HSS then you will not see that much difference and the Norton may get sharpe, but it is more of a saw tooth when looked at microscopically, and like a serrated kitchen knife will stay 'sharp' longer . Also, the sharp edge on M2 will wear down faster without the Vanadium or Cobalt in powdered metal tools. Honing helps with either metal type, but use a diamond or CBN hone.

[Brad Adams]

Brad,
You turn professionally if I remember correctly.

I only wish I turned professionally! You must be thinking of someone else.

[Roger Chandler]

I had gotten a 180 grit CBN wheel a couple of years ago from D-Way.......I recently upgraded to an industrial rated grinder and got a new 180 grit and 80 grit Hurricane wheels from The Woodturning Store.........they are both direct bore for a 5/8" shaft, meaning no bushings.... and man are they ever smooth on this new grinder......best sharpening setup I have ever had!

[Roger Chandler]

I only wish I turned professionally! You must be thinking of someone else.
There is a Brad Adams in California who is a professional turner.

[Dale Bonertz]

Sorry wrong Brad.
Tom I have a bit of everything. A few of the original Serious tool steel but I think they have changed the metal. M2 steel from Henry Taylor (I think), M4 from oneway, 2030 from Henry Taylor (I think), v10 from Huricane and V10 from Thompson. I think that is all of them.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Roger,

What grinder did you get? I am contemplating an upgrade to my sharpening setup and the new CBN wheels I am planning could benefit from a new grinder as well I guess.

Joshua

[Thom Sturgill]

Sorry wrong Brad.
Tom I have a bit of everything. A few of the original Serious tool steel but I think they have changed the metal. M2 steel from Henry Taylor (I think), M4 from oneway, 2030 from Henry Taylor (I think), v10 from Huricane and V10 from Thompson. I think that is all of them.

The M4 and V10 steels are crucible steel (also referred to as powdered metal) while the 2030 does not appear to be it does have Coboalt for wear resistance and some Vanadium (3.1% compared to M4's 4%). I don't know about the Serious tools they are keeping the steel 'secret', but claim a hardness just below carbide.

I would think that you would see a difference in the sharpening of the Henry Taylor M2 from everything else. My tools are either M2 from a variety of sources (mainly Sorby) and some Thompson's and a couple from D-Way. I got the D-Way after I got the CBN. My Thompson's did not perform anywhere near as well when sharpened with AO wheels unless I honed them with my diamond hone, but not as much improvement with the M2 steel.

[Dale Bonertz]

Thom,
It is not the sharpness that I am questioning. The cbn sharpens all the steels just fine as I mentioned in the other post. It is the longevity. I read so often folks saying the edge lasts so much longer. I don't see that happening in my case. Maybe those who are saying that are having better luck sharpening with the cbn wheels than they were with their old wheels. Maybe their sharpening skills just improved coincidentally when they got the cbn wheels. I am not sure. I have a pretty good handle on sharpening for many years. I notice the edge holding off of the cbn wheels doesn't hold the edge as long as my old wheels. The edge is sharper and helps with cleaner cuts but edge holding not so much. I think some get this false sense of edge lasts longer which most likely prevents them from sharpening when they should, more often with the cbn. The cbn takes less steel off from my experience with them so sharpening a little more often isn't a big deal. When I say a little more often that truly is what I mean. I am not sure how to ratio it but I get about 1/4 time more life out of the edge with my old wheels than I do the cbn wheels. At the end of the day that is not that much. Again there is no way I'll give them up. I like them so much I have two good grinders with three 180 wheels and one 80 grit wheel.

[Thom Sturgill]

Interesting. Reminds me of a study done by a Neander member a few years ago with plane blades. If I remember correctly, he set up a test with the blade cutting a string with a set amount of pressure and then planed a measured amount of wood and re-tested. Identical blades with one sharpened using the 'scary sharp' techniques. He was interested in proving/disproving the 'scary sharp' claim that a sharper edge stayed sharp longer. His result was to prove the claim. If the CBN gets you sharper then you would expect slightly longer life between sharpenings, but with lathe speeds that may not be a noticeable effect as the time might be measured in seconds of cutting.

I have been basing my statements off of a blog by Cindy Drozda where she stated that in talking to some metallurgists, they told her that the carbides formed in the crucible steels could not be sharpened with AO wheels, only knocked out of the steel matrix. CBN can cut them and thus leave them in the cutting face giving better wear resistance.

[Reed Gray]

The only method I can think of that would actually test the theory as to more serrated edges lasting longer, or more honed edges lasting longer is a 'feel' test where a turner who has been using one method for years, switches. However, since every single piece of wood is different, there could be no defining result. I sharpen as needed, and can feel when my edges need to be touched up. With roughing, I will use tools that could stand to be 'touched up', but for finish cuts, it is ALWAYS a fresh edge.

robo hippy

[Robert Willing]

Can you sharpen carbide cutters/inserts with the CBN wheel?

[Dale Bonertz]

Robert I am guessing you could but I don't think that you could get them as sharp as what comes from the factory. Give it a try and you might surprise yourself.

I totally agree with Reed about feel and fresh edge for finishing cuts.

I think any remark like "you can't" or "always" or etc. are over statements the majority of the time. I sharpened my V10 gouges for a long time prior to getting cbn wheels. Were they as sharp, probably not but they still would sharpen. I would think if they were just knocking out the carbide bits they would never be usable after the first use from the factory unless a cbn was used. I and many others were able to sharpen them for years before cbn became popular. Whether politics, religion, business, woodturning or etc. I ask myself if it passes the reasonable test. If it doesn't seem resonable I question it. Not being able to sharpen V10 with AO wheels doesn't pass the reasonable test, in my mind, when so many have and some continue to sharpen V10 with AO wheels.

[Reed Gray]

The CBN wheels will do a coarse grind on the carbide inserts, but it is very slow, and you won't get the edge you want. If you really want to sharpen them, they are done with a much finer grit, and diamond wheels are far better for carbide. There is one articulated hollow form tool that Packard carries that has a HSS concave disc for the cutter. It comes with a tiny mandrill that you can put the cutter on, then mount that in a drill. It works really for getting an excellent edge. If some thing like that was available for the round carbide cutters, then they would have a greatly extended life. Other than that, you will need a very fine diamond wheel. I don't know for certain, but I would think in the 1000 grit range as those pieces look polished not just ground. I don't use them, so don't really know.

robo hippy