Raised panel cove sanding

[james klein]

Anyone out there find a backing pad for a random orbit electric that enables cove sanding on raised panels? Is the DA the only answer for this? If so what pad works best?

[Max Neu]

I don't think DA's work very well for that,they just don't fit the cove right to give consistant results.I use either a Fesool LS130 with a custom made sanding pad,or a Larick sanding head.I converted Shop fox shaper into a profile sander by having a friend make new pulley's for it to slow down the RPM's,and using Larrick sanding heads.

[glenn bradley]

Goose-neck scraper followed by a foam sanding block here. If you are doing a couple dozen doors this wouldn't really work out.

[james klein]

That profile sander is an excellent idea. I do higher volumes at times but not always the same profiles, so until I have the space to leave everything set up I'm really in need of a more efficient alternative to hand sanding with a block. I will check out that festool but was hoping to find something more versatile that would get away from the cross grain work. Anyone tried the Dani Pad?

[Mel Fulks]

Maybe you have already addressed this, but if you haven't I would first focus on the cutter. With m2 or t1 steel I can get a surface that needs no sanding on the sides and just 180 or 220 on end grain. The common 3 wing carbide cutters are not good for real wood.

[Peter Quinn]

I.ve used an oscillating tool to sand raised panel coves, you have to be careful at the intersections to no wipe out the fine line that divides long grain and cross grain profiles. Insert carbide does a pretty reasonable job, better than 3 wing braised on the criss grain. You might try a really soft pad on a DA with some fairly flexible paper, not sure it will give you the results you want or much control at the corners.

[Martin Wasner]

Soft pad on a dynabrade works wonders on a simple scoop. It's all in how you hold it, and motion of the sander. You can't blankly go across it, some of you are working up to the edge towards the center, the rest you're holding it at a funky angle to get it sanded well.

[John Lankers]

Maybe you have already addressed this, but if you haven't I would first focus on the cutter. With m2 or t1 steel I can get a surface that needs no sanding on the sides and just 180 or 220 on end grain. The common 3 wing carbide cutters are not good for real wood.


That's what I do too.
I shape the profile in 2 or more passes (endgrain 1st.) and set the cutter height for a tight fitting panel and make the final pass twice which usually results in a perfect fitting almost glass smooth profile. I don't think it takes more than 30 sec. to hand sand the profile, the key here is sharp paper.

[james klein]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all of the input- going to try that extra pass. I'm curious on the significance of steel vs carbide on achieving a cleaner surface. Using carbide inserts here- isn't the sharpness of the cutting edge the key factor? Does the steel achieve a finer edge ? Also, does anyone know why the "soft" backup pads don't seem to be available for electric ?

[Bruce Wrenn]

Klingspor sells latex disks for RO that are great in this application. Because backing is flexible, they outlast paper /cloth ten to one.

[John Lankers]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all of the input- going to try that extra pass. I'm curious on the significance of steel vs carbide on achieving a cleaner surface. Using carbide inserts here- isn't the sharpness of the cutting edge the key factor? Does the steel achieve a finer edge ? Also, does anyone know why the "soft" backup pads don't seem to be available for electric ?


Steel cutting edges are much sharper than carbide and they are easier to resharpen, carbide cutting edges are not quite as sharp but hold the edge up to 10 times longer.
The sharper the blade the smoother the cut.
4 wing cutters produce more cuts per inch than 2 or 3 wing cutters.
Larger diameter cutters usually produce smoother surfaces.

[J.R. Rutter]

Steel is best if you keep it honed sharp. Carbide inserts are better than brazed, for sure. I ended up going with carbide inserts for all of my raised panel tooling. One pass on the shaper, and it is sanded on the end grain with the long grain just scuffed to match. I use a 5" RO with soft pad. I've been using 3M clean sand hook and loop discs because they are pretty flexible. From there it is all technique to keep crisp corners and not alter the profile. About one minute per panel is what we shoot for.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all of the input- going to try that extra pass. I'm curious on the significance of steel vs carbide on achieving a cleaner surface. Using carbide inserts here- isn't the sharpness of the cutting edge the key factor? Does the steel achieve a finer edge ? Also, does anyone know why the "soft" backup pads don't seem to be available for electric ?

When you look at braised carbide up close under a microscope, like a 3 wing, it's actually pretty coarse. The explanation I was given is its the nature of the material. In order to be braised to the dissimilar steel body it can't be too smooth, has to be rough or porous enough to hold the braise. So when you sharpen this coarse material there are limits to just how sharp it can get. Insert carbide is a much finer grain material, strictly a mechanical connection. You can feel the difference by hand, insert feels like a razor and braised feels like a cheese grater comparatively. HSS is sharper still, but doesn't stay that way nearly as long. I'll take sharp insert carbide over getting dull HSS, but fresh HSS is usually the best surface. We have a Schmidt innovator panel head at work, mostly HSS inserts, does a pretty fine job.

[Jim Matthews]

The local cabinet shops that make reproduction and restoration
case goods hire this task out.

There's no substitute for doing this by hand.
One over-zealous pass with a RO sander and
your profile is lost.

[james klein]

Steel is best if you keep it honed sharp. Carbide inserts are better than brazed, for sure. I ended up going with carbide inserts for all of my raised panel tooling. One pass on the shaper, and it is sanded on the end grain with the long grain just scuffed to match. I use a 5" RO with soft pad. I've been using 3M clean sand hook and loop discs because they are pretty flexible. From there it is all technique to keep crisp corners and not alter the profile. About one minute per panel is what we shoot for.

I do have some hss inserts but haven't bothered with them as they dull so fast. Is there an effective DIY way of keeping them honed sharp ?

[Mel Fulks]

I think quantity is the issue. Making one kitchen at a time I've always been able to raise all the panels with steel on one sharpening. But always careful to not contaminate the wood with grit, that is ,no sanding of panel until after they have been raised.

[jack duren]

Always sanded the profile. Never went higher than 120-150. Always had carbide cutters.

Quality is a personal thing. Everybody has their ideal of quality and so do I.

I knew a guy here in Kansas City named Brad Halloway. Very good cabinet maker and would let him build mine in a second. Anyway....He spent way too much time matching panels and sanding and eventually he went out of business.

Bottom line. You can spend a lot of time "trying" to be perfect and yet the final result won't tell it and won't pay a penny more.

I hear a lot of people say they wouldn't do this,wouldn't use that. Rare to get away with....After 30 yrs as a cabinet maker you aren't going to show me much...

[james klein]

Steel is best if you keep it honed sharp. Carbide inserts are better than brazed, for sure. I ended up going with carbide inserts for all of my raised panel tooling. One pass on the shaper, and it is sanded on the end grain with the long grain just scuffed to match. I use a 5" RO with soft pad. I've been using 3M clean sand hook and loop discs because they are pretty flexible. From there it is all technique to keep crisp corners and not alter the profile. About one minute per panel is what we shoot for.


Always sanded the profile. Never went higher than 120-150. Always had carbide cutters.

Quality is a personal thing. Everybody has their ideal of quality and so do I.

I knew a guy here in Kansas City named Brad Halloway. Very good cabinet maker and would let him build mine in a second. Anyway....He spent way too much time matching panels and sanding and eventually he went out of business.

Bottom line. You can spend a lot of time "trying" to be perfect and yet the final result won't tell it and won't pay a penny more.

I hear a lot of people say they wouldn't do this,wouldn't use that. Rare to get away with....After 30 yrs as a cabinet maker you aren't going to show me much...

Well said... this is actually the basis of the original question... something's gotta give.

I seem to do the majority of my work in maple these days and it's always time in to getting it adequately sanded, that threatens the bottom line. Was hoping to find an ros or da solution primarily were the end grain in concerned, as it is so much more efficient that hand blocks or oscillating or combinations of the two. I know of others shops using DA with soft backup pads, but this is unfamiliar territory as I am set up with Ros electric. Also it is important to preserve the profile so I'm a bit hesitant on anything hard to control or overly aggressive.

Tried a second pass with a fresh set of inserts as suggested by an earlier post, and while it may have been a significant improvement with an oak panel, still had a great deal of open grain and fuzz left to deal with on the maple.

Any other pointers are very welcome!

[J.R. Rutter]

Can you get a soft pad for your electric? If it is H&L, maybe there is a soft interface disc than can go in between the stock pad and abrasive. I have been known to glue interface pads to worn out stock backers to squeeze out some more life and get a softer pad. If your profile is a simple cove, then an RO does a great job with the right setup.

[J.R. Rutter]

I do have some hss inserts but haven't bothered with them as they dull so fast. Is there an effective DIY way of keeping them honed sharp ?

You need to remove them pretty much after every job or two and rub the flat faces on a fine diamond stone, or whatever flat abrasive you prefer. I got tired to having to reset the inserts to the same cutting circle, but depending on volume it can work well.

[Brian W Smith]

From a historical note.......

Spindle mounted sanding "heads" have been made in the past utilizing stacked leather discs,mounted on mandrel.Glue and abrasives applied after dressing the "mop".They weren't seen that much,IMO...because of where they "fit" into the bigger picture.Small jobs would be(and still are) hand sanded.Larger production facilities would go for bigger,more dedicated equipment.But that doesn't mean DIY heads aren't accurate.Just sayin.

[Sam Puhalovich]

James ... the last batch of maple panels that I did (34) had to be sanded.
I used a 5" ROS with abralon sanding screen ... and a thick ... but soft ... pad.
I set-up the panels side-by-side ... with a spacer between them ... so that the 'ridges' were 5.25" apart.
With that, I was able to sand 2 panel sides at-a-time ... slightly rocking the sander side-to-side ... and not lose the raised sharp edge.
It was a whole lot faster ... and the results were excellent ... then hand sanding ... especially the end-grain.

[Larry Edgerton]

I use a 3" RO pistol grip sander I bought from SnapOn a lot in these situations. The smaller diameter can easily be made to fit the curve by changing the angle of attack. I stay away from the corners and hit that by hand. This sander has become one of my favorite tools.

I use insert tooling and price a new set of knives into every job. Very little sanding.

[Jim Dwight]

I have an old Rockwell sander that has become the Porter Cable 330. It is not a random orbit but is an orbiting sander. It is very well made with a sturdy aluminum frame and a plastic cover. Regular sheet sandpaper is clamped on by sturdy clamps. This produces a rounded edge on those two sides that I have used several times to sand coves. I've had this sander at least 20 years. I think I had to replace the switch once. I think I'm on my third ROS. They do a nicer job but the old speed block is a workhorse. And with fine enough sandpaper, the little swirls it leaves are not visible. Plus you can always so a light final hand sanding.

[ian maybury]

One issue to watch out for when block/profile sanding (mine has been by hand) is that if the wood has harder layers in it (e.g. hard growth rings, or glue lines, or hard veneers in ply) then sanding runs the risk of doing more harm than good. Especially if the block/form is a little soft, or the sandpaper is used freehand. It tends to selectively remove the softer material...

If lots of sanding is in this situation needed (router cutters don't always leave a clean surface) then it becomes necessary (or at least the fix i've used anyway) to use a rigid block from a hard material shaped precisely to the required profile. Preferably with the abrasive glued down on to it.

The abrasive also needs to run out beyond the areas in contact with the work - there's otherwise a risk that the edge will cut a line.

Sanding a radiused corner/external 90 deg rounded shoulder as i'm doing at the momement using a 90 deg block with the fillet/radius in the internal corner needs special care - if a narrow strip is of abrasive used the edges of the sheet will cut lines at each side of the radius/shoulder. One fix is to use a block with a slightly larger radius than that of the corner. Use a glued down strip of abrasive of exactly the required width, then place enough strips of tape to be safely thicker than it butted up to it's edges on both sides. Set up correctly this sands a radius/shoulder that isn't quite a full 1/4 circle, but it looks fine, generates a consistent profile and avoids the edge damage issue...

Not always possible, but it's sometimes useful too if hand finishing a profile to hit the wood with a quick coat or two of whatever lacquer is going to be used heavily thinned before starting sanding. It fills the grain, hardens up especially the soft areas - and reduces the tendency to the above problem.

There's possibly potential to use a custom profiled scraper/scratch stock in this sort of situation at times i suspect...

[Jim Dwight]

If you want a custom shape matched to the cove, bondo on a block of wood works well.