Powerfeeds

[Martin Wasner]

I'm in the market for a new powerfeeder for the recently acquired SAC TS120 shaper. Any recommendations? Any that aren't made in Taiwan?

Steff and Maggi used to be good names, I don't know if that is still the case.

[Jesse Busenitz]

I just bought a grizzly track feeder during their Christmas sale, and have really enjoyed using it.

[Mike Heidrick]

Comatic makes popular feeders with rollers readily available. Grizzly, delta (did), and pm and accura rebrand comatic feeders. They are made in tiawan and the 1hp and larger are bullet proof tanks.

[David Kumm]

Almost all feeders are sourced from Comatic now. Some specs may vary as the Comatic sourced feeders from Martin seem a cut above the fit and finish of the rest. Can't say if they work any better. Steff is partially Euro and Chinese but a good feeder. Univer ( Pertici ) are the pick of the litter but very expensive. The Wegoma ( from Comatic ) sourced through Martin have a horizontal motor and flip from vertical to horizontal more easily than the normal feeder if you plan feeding vertically against the fence. Otherwise most feeders are basically the same now. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Dave, are you sure that Steff's are partially Chinese now? This was news to me but I guess possibly no surprise.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Erik, hard to be sure of anything but I've been told the castings and some motors are now Chinese. I haven't seen any lately but the motor should be easy to spot. Doesn't make them better or worse. I only mention because some buy Euro and Euro isn't necessarily Euro anymore. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Erik, hard to be sure of anything but I've been told the castings and some motors are now Chinese. I haven't seen any lately but the motor should be easy to spot. Doesn't make them better or worse. I only mention because some buy Euro and Euro isn't necessarily Euro anymore. Dave

You could be right. I'll ask around in Vegas. Just for curiosity more than anything else. Still had nothing but positive experiences with Steff feeders.

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

I am not a fan of Eastern imports but have to admit the Wegoma - Comatic is the best feeder I have used. We have had a couple Univer's and a Samco. Never tried a Steff but they look similar to Univer.
Some advantages to the Wegoma is easy up and down with the crank, quick flip to feed against the fence and the wheels can be split to get closer to the cutter if needed and the Smart stand had a memory indent so you can reposition it without any measuring. The one from Wegoma has a mechanical read out for height. The price for the Wegoma seems similar to resellers of the Comatic. At the Fensterbau show last year Wegoma had some with VFDs built in.

Here is a video we did on using a lock miter cutter in the shaper that shows this feeder working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4Vjt2Caa0

[Peter Quinn]

I've used Grizzly badged comatics, the stock rubber wheels suffer from suck, or they get there pretty quick, maybe expedited by using tanic woods like white oak, but the stands are pretty easy to adjust and I actually think they work a bit better than the Steff's. I don't like all the plastic handles (motor angle lock and top if the center post) in theory, but I have yet to actually see one break. The split hubs on the comatics makes wheel changes easy, which is good because you will want to change to polyurethane pretty quick. I bought a set of polyurethane replacements from comatic through beaver tools, big improvement. To be fair the rubber wheels from other manufacturers don't fair much better if any, they all seem to get glazed easily then don't grab well. It really makes a difference on small parts feeding with minimal surface area where you need a lot of grip from very little surface area. Comatic sells a low gear set that lets you run crazy slow if required, its a nice feature for an occasional operation.

I like the motors on the steff's, they seem to feed real smooth. They have different durometer polyurethane wheels available when you order, I bought a used one with the red wheels, I've yet to use anything that grabs and holds wood quite like that. I've always wanted to try a track feeder. I like the vary-feeders the best, 4 wheel beats 3 until you have to move it, 8 speeds are handy though the 4 speed feeders cover most basic needs. You can put any tires you want on it from a source like western roller, don't know if they make an option for the split hub comatic wheels, sure wish they did, beats sending the hubs out for the retread.

To be honest the worst feeder I've ever used has still been pretty good, its really a convenience thing, or what you prefer. The martin feeders sure look cool. Anyone know the current selling price? 3 wheels steff's go around $1250 for a 4 speed last time I checked, new. Comatics depends on where you buy and whose name is on it, I'd just go with grizzly if thats the choice.


Edit: Just watched Joe's video using the wegoma feeder, now I want to cry! That is excellent! The split wheels like on a molder, larger diameter, the rapid change over from horizontal to vertical feed position, wow. Changing to vertical feed is like playing rubix cube on some feeders, and changing back is like rubix cube backwards. And all the controls up front, particularly the height adjustment, one turn pivot control up high instead of close to the table knuckle busting fashion. That is one hell of a feeder, looks like they solved every problem with every other feeder I've seen.

[Max Neu]

I have the Wegoma that Joe is talking about,it is a sweet feeder!The VFD is really nice,giving you the ability to fine tune your feed rate on the fly.I also have a new Steff feeder (just burned up my 12 year old steff feeder)on my tablesaw,it is also a pretty nice feeder for the money.I will say though,most feeders will benefit quite a bit by changing the stock wheels to Western Roller wheels,I get the blue ones which are there best gripping wheels they sell.

[David Kumm]

Joe has the best stuff. The Wegoma is a knock off of the old Elu style with a better stand.314869314870314871 Comatic also made a knock off for Steff called the Primomatic. Hard to find but less than the Wegoma is you do. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

My 1hp Comatic stands do not have plastic handles. At least not the wheel parts (Delta, Griz and actual Comatic branded ones are the ones I have owned). You sure yours are plastic Peter? Also all mine came with split wheels. That used to be an option but has been recently a stocked feature on the ones I have had.

[peter gagliardi]

A couple things to note. The knuckle castings for adjustment are far better, sleeker, and seem to last longer than the bigger, heavier,clunkier style of the newer machines.
Also, the older machines used a acme, or square thread for the clamping screws which seems to add longevity to these fittings.
I really don't like the fine thread clamping on a lot of the newer stuff, the knuckles are cast, they crack, and strip out way before they should.
New machines are junked because these parts go bad, older machines only usually fail because either the motor burns out, or something in the drive case lets loose or fails- usually because of lack of lubrication from what I have seen.

It would be interesting to use the new Wegoma with the VFD. I have the variable belt drive unit and have experienced a stalled feeder a few times- there is no way that I've seen to adjust the tension on the belt in the reeves drive of this unit.

Also, if Elu came out with the ideal feeder for a shaper 50-60 years ago, I have to question why we have had to work with a subpar adjustment mechanism for so long? I think this is genuinely the case of engineers never actually using or getting feedback from actual users of these machines.

[J.R. Rutter]

My 1hp Comatic stands do not have plastic handles. At least not the wheel parts (Delta, Griz and actual Comatic branded ones are the ones I have owned). You sure yours are plastic Peter? Also all mine came with split wheels. That used to be an option but has been recently a stocked feature on the ones I have had.

I had a Grizzly 4-wheeler that had a (broken) plastic ratchet handle to lock the swivel under the motor. Hopefully that is an older design that has changed.

[Peter Quinn]

My 1hp Comatic stands do not have plastic handles. At least not the wheel parts (Delta, Griz and actual Comatic branded ones are the ones I have owned). You sure yours are plastic Peter? Also all mine came with split wheels. That used to be an option but has been recently a stocked feature on the ones I have had.

Yes Mike, there are three plastic handles on every grizzly feeder I have owned or used. One is a wheel that does the forward and backward adjustment of the horizontal arm, there is an L crank for the up/down that is plastic, and the motor rotation lever on the motor yoke is plastic. On a steff there are approximately none that are plastic. All the t handles that tighten the casting clamps are metal, and I've found these comatic handles are easier to tighten than the steff. I e never actually broken one, just raised an eyebrow first time I saw them.

[David Kumm]

My 15 year old Steff have plastic wheels and metal levers. The Univer has a metal wheel but looks cast and not real heavy. Some older Delta feeders were sourced from Steff. Split wweels can be sourced but you may have to supply the hub, depending on model. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

My 15 year old Steff have plastic wheels and metal levers. The Univer has a metal wheel but looks cast and not real heavy. Some older Delta feeders were sourced from Steff. Split wweels can be sourced but you may have to supply the hub, depending on model. Dave

My 12yr old steff is all metal, the one at work is all metal, the ones at the last job were all metal. Funny thing is I have seen a metal wheel break but never broken a plastic one yet. The older feeders had some pretty stout cast wheels that were solid, the newer ones seem to be a hollow cast soft metal, maybe plastic is an improvement? Do you know a source for replacements wheels for the comatic split hubs in different durameters of polyurethane? I have the urethane replacements from comatic, and while it's a stickier compound tha the rubber originals it's not as good as the western roller wheels I used at work previously or the stock red urethane wheels on my steff.

[Larry Edgerton]

Martin

Today I was making short runs of replica mouldings. I have flipped my Univer from table to fence 5 times, AND IT IS A PAIN IN THE POSTERIOR!

A Wegoma is in my future and for the little difference between a good conventional and a Wegoma, I would buy the Wegoma if I were you. Its hard for me to justify as I have a couple of decent feeders but as I do a lot of small runs I really need to bite the bullet.

That will be 2 cents please.......

Hans Schollbreck, world famous butcher and part time woodworker.

[ian maybury]

Just wondering. I've been sneaking up on a discounted Steef Maggi 2038 3 wheeler for sale locally here for a while. What is it that makes the Wegoma so good/easy to use?

[peter gagliardi]

The ability in about 3 seconds to go from horizontal wheels to vertical wheels for pressure against a shaper fence is the biggest and most important difference.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter Quinn's rubix cube comparison still has me laughing. It is so right on. Only those who have turned a few feeders can appreciate that.

[Max Neu]

My 12yr old steff is all metal, the one at work is all metal, the ones at the last job were all metal. Funny thing is I have seen a metal wheel break but never broken a plastic one yet. The older feeders had some pretty stout cast wheels that were solid, the newer ones seem to be a hollow cast soft metal, maybe plastic is an improvement? Do you know a source for replacements wheels for the comatic split hubs in different durameters of polyurethane? I have the urethane replacements from comatic, and while it's a stickier compound tha the rubber originals it's not as good as the western roller wheels I used at work previously or the stock red urethane wheels on my steff.
I have a Wegoma with split wheels that I use Western Rollers on.The Western Roller wheels aren't split,but they still fit.I use the factory split wheels directly in front and back of the cutter (on my shaper),and the blue tacky ones from western roller on the very front and back wheels on my 4 wheel feeder.They are all the same diameter,so it doesn't affect anything.

[David Kumm]

My understanding is that Western roller can make a wheel to fit your split hub, but don't make the hub itself. I don't know about Axiom and there is another place that 360 Degree Machinery uses when they replace wheels. They might be worth a look.

Interesting about the handwheel material. I had a green Steff and a Felder ( made by Steff ) from late 90s and both had the plastic handwheel. Steff went to white in early 2000s but I don't know if their parts changed. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Peter Quinn's rubix cube comparison still has me laughing. It is so right on. Only those who have turned a few feeders can appreciate that.
I agree. Especially if ,as an employee, you have been used to the feeder being on one side and then go to a shop where they are all on the other side. But when all in a shop are mounted on same side they can be turned pretty fast. The instant
quick change is nice if you can leave a machine dedicated ,but if not ...it's better to deal with people who can count and measure, and just fire employees who can't as no convenience feature will keep up with the demands made by incompetence . I've worked in a couple of places where no kitchen ever got made without mistakes such as at least one door size being listed wrong, even when more complicated jobs seldom had a problem. We had one local place that blew 20 million in several years before going under,everything was the best there except the management. Except for the really dinky feeders ,I can be pretty much be happy with any that have good Western Roller tires. Most shop owners I've known just buy used stuff of good quality and haven't been too
picky about brand.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin

Today I was making short runs of replica mouldings. I have flipped my Univer from table to fence 5 times, AND IT IS A PAIN IN THE POSTERIOR!

A Wegoma is in my future and for the little difference between a good conventional and a Wegoma, I would buy the Wegoma if I were you. Its hard for me to justify as I have a couple of decent feeders but as I do a lot of small runs I really need to bite the bullet.

That will be 2 cents please.......

Hans Schollbreck, world famous butcher and part time woodworker.

Something to think about. This shaper is going to be set up, and forgotten. It's only duty will be panel raising. I'm thinking I'll just order up a four wheel Steff.

Steff has a six wheeler. Crafty.

[ian maybury]

Ta guys. Sounds like it's one of those spaces where the differences are obvious once you go hands on, but difficult to communicate.

The highly generalised lesson of modern manufacturing (Lean methods) by the way has been that by and large highly flexible (agile) operations (adaptable equipment run by smart people) while perhaps more expensive initially typically end up being cheaper in the long term - and deliver higher levels of quality, massively reduced waste and rework and much better customer response. This because modern markets tend to be very demanding in terms of requirements for complicated and rapidly changing types of product. Which leads to small batches/short runs, and lots of complexity.

They are more cost effective in terms of combined capital, overhead and running costs. This because it's cheaper to e.g. be able to quickly set a line/bunch of equipment to handle different product sub types using quick changeover methods (called SMED in the business - think formula 1 pitstop), or ultimately to take the same equipment and set it up in different arrangements to handle entirely different jobs/products. That and the fact that it's cheaper to get stuff right the first time.

Stuff that's hard to changeover run by morons ('we always do it that way') tends to lead to dedicated and highly inflexible lines that get poor utilisation, and lots of error and delay - and get dumped shortly afterwards when the market/product requirement having moved on renders them obsolete...

[J.R. Rutter]

Ta guys. Sounds like it's one of those spaces where the differences are obvious once you go hands on, but difficult to communicate.

The highly generalised lesson of modern manufacturing (Lean methods) by the way has been that by and large highly flexible (agile) operations (adaptable equipment run by smart people) while perhaps more expensive initially typically end up being cheaper in the long term - and deliver higher levels of quality, massively reduced waste and rework and much better customer response. This because modern markets tend to be very demanding in terms of requirements for complicated and rapidly changing types of product. Which leads to small batches/short runs, and lots of complexity.

They are more cost effective in terms of combined capital, overhead and running costs. This because it's cheaper to e.g. be able to quickly set a line/bunch of equipment to handle different product sub types using quick changeover methods (called SMED in the business - think formula 1 pitstop), or ultimately to take the same equipment and set it up in different arrangements to handle entirely different jobs/products. That and the fact that it's cheaper to get stuff right the first time.

Stuff that's hard to changeover run by morons ('we always do it that way') tends to lead to dedicated and highly inflexible lines that get poor utilisation, and lots of error and delay - and get dumped shortly afterwards when the market/product requirement having moved on renders them obsolete...

Absolutely. Replacing seven shapers with two has freed up valuable floor space and changeovers take less time than before. I have customers say, "No rush, next time you run that profile just add this order." In reality, it takes ~2 minutes to change a complete cabinet door cutter set with cope, stick, and panel profiles while maintaining dimensional accuracy within thousandths. Having a fast change anything, including a power feeder, means that you compromise less and get stuff done quickly and correctly.

[Martin Wasner]

Absolutely. Replacing seven shapers with two has freed up valuable floor space and changeovers take less time than before. I have customers say, "No rush, next time you run that profile just add this order." In reality, it takes ~2 minutes to change a complete cabinet door cutter set with cope, stick, and panel profiles while maintaining dimensional accuracy within thousandths. Having a fast change anything, including a power feeder, means that you compromise less and get stuff done quickly and correctly.


I disagree with that approach. Having machines set up for dedicated tasks may take up more space, but the room for error in setup drops to zero other than misalignment on inserts when changing them out for sharp ones. Walking another ten feet to another shaper doesn't take too long either. ;)

Plus, two guys can operate separate processes. Heck, two guys can be coping the same stack of rails with separate left and right copers setup. Machines like the Unique double end copers are awesome and setup from profile to profile is quick being you stack all your cutters and just raise and lower the spindle to a number, but you still have to have a setup for any profile that's in the big coper. Because long rails for big paneled ends won't fit between the spindles.

BUT, you are correct, foor space is expensive, and laying out capital for another machine, plus shipping, rigging, dust collection, and electrical isn't all that fun either.

[J.R. Rutter]

I've done it both ways and each approach has upsides. But in the spirit of lean, less is more as long as it is more or less no-compromise.

FWIW, we can cope and stick simultaneously on one shaper, but in practice we don't have to. Trying to make two standard shapers work efficiently would not be fun at all, but investing an equal amount on two vs seven shapers makes a big difference.

I don't normally share things like this, but here is a short video of one of my shapers. Cope stacked and shimmed above sticking, pneumatic spindle holder similar to a CNC router, integral outboard fence with ProScale readout, Western Roller belted feeder, spring pressure shoes on the inside of the sticking, Ritter pneumatic jig with side pressure mounted to SCM linear guide on the back side, fully guarded with reasonable dust collection and air stream to keep infeed table clean.

https://youtu.be/RQsAeVN9Ua4

[Max Neu]

I am with JR, I got a smart shaper and ditched the dedicated shapers to use the floor space for more useful equipment.I make so many different door styles that the "dedicated" shapers were getting changed over enough to the point they weren't saving any time, just farther to push the parts cart to.If all i did was cabinet doors, then a Unique might be the best route.Cabinet doors are just a portion of what i do with my shaper, so the cnc shaper works perfect for my needs also.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm brainwashed. My last "real" job, was at a fairly large shop. 50 guys at the time, and at least 60k sq/ft. All the sticking was cut and sized on the moulder and stockpiled in racks. You needed a quarter round profile, you just grabbed it out of the rack, cut to length, and walked over with your cart of parts to whatever shaper was needed. But, that was a different deal than most, that place cranked cabinets out like a machine.

We actually had three sanders. Two 43" dual head Timesaver widebelts, (because changing belts takes too long), and a buffing Timesaver.

Automatic carriage for the clamps. Line up the clamps for whatever size panel you were glueing up, dropped the glued pieces in, and walk away. Pretty cool stuff.

Panel scoops were cut on a four head Voorwood moulder. Cut the scoop, cut the relief on the back, sand both. One pass.

The more popular door edge profiles were also cut on a Voorwood moulder. Same thing, cut and sand in one pass.

If the average house has 60 cabinet doors in it, I'd guess that place was cranking out 300 cabinet doors a day. Plus paneled drawer fronts, plus paneled ends. The door department was made up of around 10-12 guys.

[ian maybury]

;) I can't resist another lean inspired post. (i have some background in the field)

For sure there's a balance of factors determining the situation in which the lean/agile approach delivers the best performance. I guess at one extreme if margins are very high, the demand is highly standardised and predictable, customer have no choice but to wait their turn, lead times in the industry are typically long, machines cost pennies, staff cost nothing so they can be assigned routinely to specific machines and spend years learning to do the job (as opposed to needing to be multi skilled/able to move between jobs) and floor space likewise then it becomes possible to have multiple dedicated lines/set ups. There likewise wouldn't necessarily be much wrong with having a bunch of permanently set up cheap shapers - IF cheap, and if the required set ups are truly predictable. if the market turns out to always demand what's not actually set up then chaos quickly follows.

Situations are rarely black and white, but in the more general sense - companies servicing markets that demand flexibility that refuse to configure accordingly tend to end up trying to buy their way out of jail with lots of inventory and work in progress (these also tend to be an inevitable consequence of their configurations), lots of equipment etc as above. The trouble is that somehow this almost never works - they always have lots of parts/material, but never the right material; never the right machine set up as above or whatever. Add in tight margins/competitive markets and the resulting poor service levels, high costs and the results are often lethal. The dead giveway is lack of/loss of smooth work flow. If there's bottlenecks, inventory, work in progress and delays/missed deadlines and quality problems all over the place while everybody is run ragged then it's likely that something is wrong...

Take the situation JR describes. Not only has he been able to deliver what the customer wanted in short order and left him a happy bunny likely to come back next month, he's done so at no great inconvenience/minimum cost to himself and can if necessary charge a competitive price for the work while still making money. That's presuming he got his choice of line and total operational set up right so that as well as being flexible it truly has the capability to deliver the demands made of it by both the customer and the business. If he got it wrong/it's not been well designed to meet these needs) then he's just left himself with this dirty great non delivering overhead hung around his neck.....

[Mel Fulks]

J.R. is a smart guy running what is probably one of the better door operations. He is clearly safety conscious ,and besides being the ethical thing,that makes it easier to replace those who move on. Most of the doors I've made were because management did not think that panel matches etc. would be right for picky people. I have been called on to make emergency doors because a kitchen scientist made mistakes in ordering doors and could not wait to get replacements. My guess is that the better door suppliers do a good business making "emergency" doors at a higher rate. No one should get the idea that there is only one right way to make doors. And the place I mentioned that went through 20 million dollars made a lot of wrong stuff. Doors drilled for wrong hardware etc.

[ian maybury]

For sure Mel. Lean thinking is applicable primarily/in pure form in what's called repetitive or flow manufacturing situations. Factory-like situations if you like. That's standard (though to known but varied and multiple/mixed specs) products using standard materials and manufacturing processes. Lean in a sense (in ordert to achieve maximum performance in this scenario - best cost/quality/delivery etc) sets out to handle the shortest possible runs of a much wider than before range of possible products on a flow line or factory-like basis. There are limits though.

Once it gets into a case of requiring e.g. customisation, or a lot of human input to select material, or there's more variety or unpredictability in product specification or materials than can realistically be handled by any sensible range of machine pre-sets or whatever then it starts to get back into territory where highly expert 'batch' or 'jobbing shop' techniques/batch working - where the work is brought to a range of machines, and the sequence of operations and machines is determined by the needs of each job (as in a machine shop or trad machine based wood shop) may become the way forward. Those same batch techniques won't be optimum for volume, but they will do the business in more specialised scenarios. Lots of Lean thinking and also machine automation options and other working methods/aids (like digital set up and controls etc) will likely still be applicable/cost effective in this situation. The craft/hand tool option tends to come in below that (in terms of being the most cost effective option where absolute maximum adaptability and very high levels of input are required with minimal volumes) on what in effect is an increasing price/input per unit/complexity of requirements range of possible cost effective choices.

There's always horses for courses, and no escape from the need to come up with the best possible response to reality… Heaven forbid though that it ever gets to the stage where there's no room for jobbing shop or craft working. It's fairly obvious though why craft and even jobbing/batch production have to a very large degree been driven back from being mainstream into servicing niche/specialised and typically more wealthy markets as computers, automation and new thinking have permitted flow/repetitive/factory manufacturing using Lean to become flexible enough to undertake lower unit volume/more highly mixed spec work that wouldn't have been remotely financially viable back in the high old days of old style one size fits all mass production. (:) when Henry Ford ruled - if you wanted a car it had to be a model T, and the colour had to be black)

[Larry Edgerton]

Thanks for posting that setup JR, very cool. One man shop here these days so I won't use it but it does give me an idea for something else.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

I've done it both ways and each approach has upsides. But in the spirit of lean, less is more as long as it is more or less no-compromise.

FWIW, we can cope and stick simultaneously on one shaper, but in practice we don't have to. Trying to make two standard shapers work efficiently would not be fun at all, but investing an equal amount on two vs seven shapers makes a big difference.

I don't normally share things like this, but here is a short video of one of my shapers. Cope stacked and shimmed above sticking, pneumatic spindle holder similar to a CNC router, integral outboard fence with ProScale readout, Western Roller belted feeder, spring pressure shoes on the inside of the sticking, Ritter pneumatic jig with side pressure mounted to SCM linear guide on the back side, fully guarded with reasonable dust collection and air stream to keep infeed table clean.

https://youtu.be/RQsAeVN9Ua4


Thats a a great setup. Am I seeing this right, guy on the back is coping, guy on the front is sticking, same spindle? I'm loving that level of organization. Scares me to think how I'm doing it now.

[Mike Heidrick]

Confirmed last night both feeder stand wheels on my comatic feeder and on my Delta feeder stand (rebranded Comatic), sized for 1hp 4 wheel and 3 wheel feeders, are metal (looks to be aluminum) and not plastic. Also on the Delta they have metal collar lock bolts but it was rev 1 not the newer rev 2 with the plastic lock collar bolt. I doubt mine are rare examples.

[J.R. Rutter]

Thats a a great setup. Am I seeing this right, guy on the back is coping, guy on the front is sticking, same spindle? I'm loving that level of organization. Scares me to think how I'm doing it now.

Yes, same spindle. And that is jatoba. But normally only one person runs this shaper. The big 1/4" aluminum plate in the front is bolted to the section table that cranks in and out on dovetail ways.

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice JR! I have seen pictures of your setup but good to see the video. How do you like working Jatoba? Probably makes a nice cabinet door. We built a entry with it. Beautiful, but never again.

In these times every shop, large and small is faced with producing small batch sizes even to the quantity of one. To be profitable it takes some re- thinking of the process and machines.

[J.R. Rutter]

Love / hate relationship with jatoba. It machines really crisply and can look really good. OTOH, I had to fly to Alaska two years ago to soothe a homeowner who was threatening to sue a cabinet shop customer over jatoba raised panel doors that were cracking in the 15-20% indoor winter humidity of their house. I showed up with a digital hygrometer and big copy of the humidity / EMC chart from Bruce Hoadley's book and made the analogy that they had the Ferrari of cabinets and were effectively parking it on the street in a bad neighborhood and complaining when it got messed up. Got them to agree to install a humidifier in their heating system and remade a bunch of doors. The cabinet shop loved the save, but I told them no more warranties on jatoba. If they sell it, it is on them...

But yes, I've been doing lots of smaller jobs these days. Did 4 changeovers yesterday for 4 different bathroom vanities. Hard to make anything on that sort of stuff if you have to spend any time at all on setups.

[Joe Calhoon]

Love / hate is a good description. Its hard and dense but sure moves a lot. I am nervous about it but installed for a year now and still OK. The problem for big doors is the weight. We had to rasp the tenons down to get it to go together. I would like to build some furniture with it.

Joe

[ian maybury]

Hope this isn't a PIA, but i guess i'm trying to help inspire a few in business to take a look at Lean. It's basically the body of management thinking (and especially a work culture) that saw japanese business and especially auto manufacturing blow the Western competition out of the water from the late 80s onwards. (Toyota Production System is another name for it) It's been widely studied and these days is also the basis of best practice manufacturing here too.

To pick up on what you said Joe. Viewed at the level of workflow the aspiration in Lean in it's idealised form is zero lead time, batch size of one, zero defects, zero set up time (after change overs), zero inventory/work in progress and zero equipment breakdowns. Anything else leads to large chunks of resources being dedicated to clearing up crises (waste as it's termed in Lean) rather than work that directly adds maximum value for either the customer or the business. (all management and supervision is also waste by this definition) Most managers thing firefighting problems is doing their job - but it's actually not.

Lean IS a bit scary Peter, because suddenly there's no 'this is the way it's done'/firm ground any more. Everything is up for re-engineering (first principles level review) or at least continuous improvement - continuous change because in the end competitiveness is a moving target and the opposition isn't standing still. It's great to see some of the thinking in action in woodworking JR - it's applicable across most manufacturing scenarios, and in service business too. We're talking primarily technical (product and process) matters, but Lean in it's full form contains equally developed bodies of methods for people management (especially deconstruction of centralised hierarchies, and shoving responsibility down to the people doing the work), factory and line layout, product development, customer relations/marketing/sales, supplier relationships and supply chains, quality management, business strategy, financial management/accounting and so on etc. etc.

That's only at the level of management principles. Figuring out how they are best applied in specific situations in a given industry is another huge task. It's the basis of a new reality for all concerned, and a liftime journey...

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with the lean effort but I think it can only be done well , especially in small shops , after a thorough understanding of how the sets of cutters are made to work. The sets are made to be run face down unless they are special order. That means you can change from cope to stick with no height adjustment, some sets will require a thin dedicated shim with sticking. With a simple plywood fence for each of the set ups clamped on masking tape marks changes are real quick and
rail and stile will fit dead flush. And if the material is sanded on face side with simple portable belt sander the doors will have
no cross grain scratches and can be quickly orbital finish sanded. Doors can then be made with no wide belt sander and one shaper. I have seen this greatly speed door making in small shops, use everything like mfg intended THEN start looking for improvements.

[Martin Wasner]

Parts still need to be ran through a widebelt though, even if your setup is flawless. Most of the time, my doors are completely flush on the face at the rail to stile joint, but the backside may be off for whatever reason. A properly setup widebelt, the sanding with an orbital after going through the widebelt is pretty minimal. Nobody will convince me that spending eight seconds in the widebelt is smarter than adding five minutes of sanding with an orbital removing planer marks. Tools are cheap, bodies are expensive.

Woodworking is a pretty reasonable business to get into in my opinion. A five man cabinet shop can be very well equipped with less than $500k invested in tooling. Shopping for good condition, quality used tooling will dramatically lower that. Certainly not wasting money should be a priority, but productivity should always be the front runner in the business aspect of woodworking. Safety, how you treat employees,, which part of the market you want to play in, what level of quality you wish to produce are all separate and different facets of the business.

My door setup is retarded currently. Two shapers, soon to be three do all of it. One is a dedicated coper, but I have to change fence setups because ask of my cutters are different. The SAC will be dedicated to panel raising. The last shaper does sticking, sizes sticking, sizes face frame material, and whatever miscellaneous tasks I need a shaper to do. My next step is to do some homogenization in the cutter department do everything is the same brand and same offsets, so changing profiles is just a matter of swapping heads with no adjustment to either the spindle or fence on the copers. I'd like to pick up another SAC liked the one I just got, to free up the tired Powermatic 27 for coper duty. At some point I'd like to sell off the Powermatic shapers used for coping and replace them with something of higher quality. At that point I can start hunting for a few more to be setup as dedicated copers as well.

My shop is a two man shop, if it burned down tomorrow, I'd have to spend a bit over $200k to replace everything, and I feel like I've got the bare minimum in equipment to be reasonably productive.



All my opinion, run your businesses any way that pleases you

[Martin Wasner]

And cross grain scratches are not a big deal. 180g scratch with or against the grain has to be sanded off.

[Mel Fulks]

I did not write anything about the door backs . But customers are are pretty tolerant of scratches on the BACK; that is not to say I would be. Good doors were made before we all decided we needed wide belt sanders. We have all seen doors sanded perfectly on FACE side .... That does not mean the sticking lined up, sometimes it is way off and quite obvious at the corners.

[Peter Quinn]

I''m in the habit of running all my door stock through the wide belt before cope and mold. It seems the planer is the most likely culprit to get off by a few thousands end to end. I've used planers with terminus knives, insert knives, well set straight knives, rarely do they stay dead on it seems, and they are never fun to adjust so nobody wants to do it. The wide belt always seems pretty close, or you can stick to one end and take off any ridges from nicks in the knives that cause parts to rock a bit. If all the parts are sanded very close going in, and my sled is on, and I keep it clean when loading parts, and they shaper is decent and holds its settings, I can in fact make doors that really don't need to go through the wide belt post construction. There is nothing fun about sanding the cross grain scratches out of some species like walnut or sapele that while not veritably hard don't seem to give up scratches easily with a ROS. Worst case I'm doing one very light pass with 120 or 150 on the wide belt, if it takes more than that, I've done something very wrong.

[Erik Loza]

For you feeder guys, I have a question: Do you like to replace the wheels with, say, poly replacements right off the bat or only on aged feeders? I know that those rubber wheels (at least the Steff ones) tend to glaze with age but the rubber seems pretty compliant to me on new units. Just curious what other folks do.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

I've seen a couple of brand new feeders with rubber tires I considered worthless. Don't think it's just an age thing ...compared to western roller tires the rubber tires are inferior. PAA (phony argument augmentation) ....I thing CRASHCAR uses only the Western roller stuff on the race circuit..... Somebody posted a few days ago that the blue tires are "the best"
they are the grabbiest but as such they wear out the fastest. The yellow wheels are the biggest seller , far superior to rubber tires, and last a lot longer than the blue. I consider the blue a product for unusual cases ....and races.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hope this isn't a PIA, but i guess i'm trying to help inspire a few in business to take a look at Lean. It's basically the body of management thinking (and especially a work culture) that saw japanese business and especially auto manufacturing blow the Western competition out of the water from the late 80s onwards. (Toyota Production System is another name for it) It's been widely studied and these days is also the basis of best practice manufacturing here too.

To pick up on what you said Joe. Viewed at the level of workflow the aspiration in Lean in it's idealised form is zero lead time, batch size of one, zero defects, zero set up time (after change overs), zero inventory/work in progress and zero equipment breakdowns. Anything else leads to large chunks of resources being dedicated to clearing up crises (waste as it's termed in Lean) rather than work that directly adds maximum value for either the customer or the business. (all management and supervision is also waste by this definition) Most managers thing firefighting problems is doing their job - but it's actually not.

Lean IS a bit scary Peter, because suddenly there's no 'this is the way it's done'/firm ground any more. Everything is up for re-engineering (first principles level review) or at least continuous improvement - continuous change because in the end competitiveness is a moving target and the opposition isn't standing still. It's great to see some of the thinking in action in woodworking JR - it's applicable across most manufacturing scenarios, and in service business too. We're talking primarily technical (product and process) matters, but Lean in it's full form contains equally developed bodies of methods for people management (especially deconstruction of centralised hierarchies, and shoving responsibility down to the people doing the work), factory and line layout, product development, customer relations/marketing/sales, supplier relationships and supply chains, quality management, business strategy, financial management/accounting and so on etc. etc.

That's only at the level of management principles. Figuring out how they are best applied in specific situations in a given industry is another huge task. It's the basis of a new reality for all concerned, and a liftime journey...

Ian,
I try to employ lean where I can and there is always room for improvement. This site has many hobby woodworkers but also quite a few skilled pros either running small operations or working in one. Lean works in some areas of these type shops but you have to be careful how far you try to take it. Of everyone here JR can probably utilize it more than others. But I have a feeling he might go off the reservation on some jobs.

In my own works we are in a remote area and even with specializing in doors, windows and millwork we are constantly taking on difficult jobs that require some head scratching and special setups. So while my setup times are not zero they are usually fast and accurate. To be totally lean in woodworking would take some intensive marketing of your product. Shops like mine while we have a few specialities we are still basically a job shop. For us a big improvement came in our S4S process and shapers. You also have to remember the high end shapers and other machines take a lot of skill to get the maximum productivity out. As Mel mentioned a lot of big companies think they can avoid skilled labor by installing this type equipment. It usually goes downhill pretty fast after that.

The market is changing. Custom interior doors used to be our bread and butter easy work. Now the larger custom door shops have gotten lean and pretty hard to compete against unless something special. I think for custom cabinets the same. In tilt turn windows I cannot compete with Eastern Europe for standard product. Historic work is one of the best products for our setup.

I network and have visited shops world wide and Its always interesting to see what is going on elsewhere. In the European Union, especially Belgium, Germany and Switzerland shop wages are very high as well as overhead. These are some of the most lean and optimized shops you will ever see. All the way from computers to machinery. Austria and Italy close behind. To set up a shop of this level in the US would be a difficult task. Mainly because wages are a lot less and would not justify the cost of machinery. We also do not have the skilled workforce these countries have. By contrast I know some shops in Central America that have extremely low cost labor and are close to the raw materials. They use old heavy outdated equipment and compete in the world market just fine. One owner told me most high tech machines are a disaster in their works.
In the US it seems like we are in the middle as far as operating costs and wages.

One thing for sure it is a world market and ever changing.
Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

For you feeder guys, I have a question: Do you like to replace the wheels with, say, poly replacements right off the bat or only on aged feeders? I know that those rubber wheels (at least the Steff ones) tend to glaze with age but the rubber seems pretty compliant to me on new units. Just curious what other folks do.

Erik

Eric,
I think it depends on the feeder. I have had a few Univer feeders and I like the wheels on those better than Western Roller. My only other experience was a Samco and the tires got hard and glazed up right away on that one. The Wegoma seems good but not enough use to tell yet.

[J.R. Rutter]

Ian, I've read a bunch on lean and definitely try to keep it in mind. I know that I still have waste in my processes that different equipment could eliminate, but that's always a struggle. Supply chain is huge, since suppliers are just another work cell feeding yours. Maintenance is a challenge, but every little bit helps from waxing beds and sharpening, to cleaning and lubing. When someone gets an idea on how to improve something, we benchmark it and compare it to the old way for speed and quality. Our natural batch size is one order of doors, since species change, color matching is a consideration, and quantity is generally very manageable so work in progress does not pile up. Most orders are 1 to 2 days in the shop. 5S is something we continually work on and it pays dividends when things hit the fan and it is flat out.

I'm with Joe that going to a moulder for S4S has saved an enormous amount of effort with benefits all down the line and no significant downside (believe it or not). Like Peter mentioned, having consistent dimensions makes everything easier. Standardization alone can make the difference between profit and just barely covering expenses. For cabinet guys, this starts with box design(?). Martin, I think investing in a consistent tooling system was one of the smarter moves I made. You are on the right track there, I think.

For sanding, we only take off 0.020' to 0.025" per face to end at 13/16" finished thickness and 220 grit crossgrain. 2 heads is pretty much minimum for this and paper would last a lot longer with a 3-4 head machine. With a single head running a coarser grit, I can see where Mel's coming from. We push it to the theoretical material removal limit with 120 / 220. Obviously, there are many ways to skin this cat and you have to use the tools at your disposal to their fullest potential.

For feeder wheels, I'm using red on the moulder and getting a bit of slip if the bed lube dries off. I would do yellow next time. Yellow on the panel shaper works great. I can't remember ever getting slip with the way we set it up. I would be tempted to switch right away on a new feeder.

[ian maybury]

Ta guys, appreciate the space. I'll back off after this. For sure it's very important to be selective about the supposed 'improvements' methods applied in any organisation, and what's a priority for a larger factory type flow/line based operation won't necessarily make sense in a small jobbing shop. If nothing else resources are limited, and it's important to get the best return possible/bang for the buck on the time and money invested in improvement - in any organisation. Grandiose and badly conceived technical projects that get it wrong have a tendency to leave organisations or individuals lumbered with overhead - financing and paying depreciation on hardware that's not contributing.

I don't know production woodworking well enough to have a lot to say in terms of specifics. That said my background is implementation of Lean programmes in small manufacturing companies - trying to put in place what can only be a starting basis for an ongoing continuous improvement mentality and ongoing programme of improvements.

Lean ultimately delivers an incredibly wide ranging menu of improvement opportunities - and opportunities for getting it badly wrong. For sure Mel there's no escaping the nitty gritty process realities, but one of the most powerful tools that Lean (done right) brings to bear is a different and much more holistic way of seeing. Ask the right question, and the answer usually follows. Add a properly structured framework which makes improvement a core responsibility for everybody, and which results in the routine identification and selection of the best improvement opportunities, and the resourcing and running of the projects to realise them and you're humming.

We've a strong tendency to unthinking hierarchical authority and a technology focus in the West, which tends to be very limiting and leads to very static organisations and ways of seeing. We're not inclined to be very aware of the 'soft' side. Many of us unconsciously want a hero boss to defer to, and prefer a static and unchallenging situation. Nothing happens in these worlds unless the boss says so, and most workers are only contributing a tiny fraction of their capability and commitment. While the Eastern/Lean view assigns respect and authority it's less by virtue of position and more respect for the expertise required by the particular role. e.g. the people responsible for business and other strategy have authority in those fields, but equally the guy running a machine has responsibility and authority not just for running it, but also for contributing (with where needed the support of those with e.g. engineering or other capability as team members) to improving the operation. (another reason for hiring right minded and smart staff)

Lean is as much about creating an improvement oriented and right minded culture in an organisation that extracts the best from all that can contribute as the technicalities - it's one of its most powerful aspects. If you can harness the guys doing the work to contribute in a committed way as they can to improvements then suddenly the whole organisation is thinking and in a co-operative way doing improvement - not just any improvement but by definition grounded/reality based stuff including that Mel points to. The wide ranging input that results from correct organisation reduces the risk of catastrophic errors.

Lean sometimes gets cross threaded with the above Western authoritarian mind sets - with the result that those at the top of the hierarchy try to dictate improvements over the heads of those closer to/with a better understanding of the relevant realities. If nothing else Lean implies significant changes in the power structure/hierarchy/thought processes/status quo in authoritarian organisations, and while lip service is typically paid these changes are often resisted by those that should know/do better. (the boss/ruling clique is the single biggest problem in many organisations) Heavy handed and inappropriate exercise of authority by definition creates an inappropriate and closed culture - trust (which is automatically destroyed by compulsion) is necessary if employees are to speak up...

This sort of authoritarian wet dream stuff often creates a camel of an organisation and risks disaster. Not only do staff get switched off (their potential contribution is never realised) there's also a huge risk of pie in the sky projects that are not reality based and which cannot work or deliver. Done that way it's not much fun either......

[Erik Loza]

Thanks, fellas.

Erik

[Martin Wasner]

For feeder wheels, I'm using red on the moulder and getting a bit of slip if the bed lube dries off. I would do yellow next time. Yellow on the panel shaper works great. I can't remember ever getting slip with the way we set it up. I would be tempted to switch right away on a new feeder.

My main shaper that does the sticking and sizing, I've got a sheet of UHMW that I lay down that the material rides on. I have yet to lube it with anything. I'm also running a lot less pressure on the rollers. I set them so there's about an 1/8" of squish there. I think that helps with both wear on the feeder, and consistency of cut. Both are probably very marginal gains in anything, but never having to lube it, and never having anything stick is pretty priceless. I haven't seen a downside to the UHMW being on there. No noticeable wear on the surface, and I can't even venture a guess as to how many feet of material have passed over it.




2 heads is pretty much minimum for this and paper would last a lot longer with a 3-4 head machine.

I agree with that completely. I had to call the factory that built my widebelt with some questions on wear and adjusting the platen on the second head of my widebelt, the conversation drifted and he mentioned that they had built and sold a six head widebelt to a place running three shifts. They went almost six months before having to swap belts. My guess is that they were running a 60/80/120/150/180 setup. If that's the case, each head isn't even taking a full scratch so I can see how the belts would last an eternity. My widebelt, the abrasives last about 5-6 hours or operation running normal hardwoods. But I'm running them very hard. I get 13/16" material, and I take it to .788" on the first pass, and .760" on the opposite face. That's way overworking a 120g belt on a drum, and a 180g on a combo head. But, I'm taking doors, drawer fronts, and face frames to thickness in two passes, with no downtime other than moving carts around to setup for the second pass. The extra speed more than offsets the accelerated belt deterioration, and the time spent switching grits in the middle of sanding anything. I figure the new widebelt is at least four times as fast as my old Timesavers "Speedsander", and the quality of scratch is infinitely better making final sanding much easier, as is the consistency of thickness. A 7-1/2hp machine, vs 25hp on the first head and 20hp on the second. Plus a much heavier built chassis, and rediculous belt speeds. Cost me $40k, but well worth it. The return will be very quick.

[Peter Quinn]

For you feeder guys, I have a question: Do you like to replace the wheels with, say, poly replacements right off the bat or only on aged feeders? I know that those rubber wheels (at least the Steff ones) tend to glaze with age but the rubber seems pretty compliant to me on new units. Just curious what other folks do.

Erik

I have three feeders in the home shop, two out of three came with polyuerthane wheels. One was a 10 year old steff, never used, came what red poly tires from the factory as I understand, they work great. The other is an old MEC, with fresh yellow poly wheels somebody else replaced, came on a shaper, works great too. The third is a grizzly, came with the stock rubber, I ran those for about 2 years, fairly light use in the home shop, they just got baked and glazed and slipped a lot. I tried sanding the glaze off, cleaned with acetone, no good. So i'm in the use it until it stops working camp. If the choice were available, and from some vendors it may be, I'd start out with the poly wheels.

[Jordan Lane]

Do you guys prefer 4 wheel or 3 wheel feeders?

[Martin Wasner]

Four wheel for me, I don't see myself buying another three wheel feeder

[Ken Grant]

This thread was a great read. Thanks to all for the good info. JR, thanks for posting that video, you have some great setups. I would love to see your operation. Is that a horizontal air clamp set up on your coping sled?

[J.R. Rutter]

JR, thanks for posting that video, you have some great setups. I would love to see your operation. Is that a horizontal air clamp set up on your coping sled?

Thanks. Yes, there is one side clamp to push all of the rails and backer square to the jig, and the Ritter jig came with 3 top clamps that you can position anywhere. All tied to the same switch.