Close-Up and Personal Look at the NEW Lie-Nielsen PLOW PLANE

[Karl Fife]

Here are a few pictures I took of the much-anticipated Lie Nielsen Plow Plane (Plough Plane) while at Handworks 2015 in Amana, Iowa.

Apparently I can only put 8 pictures in a post, so I'll reply to my own post with four more.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314631&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433014101 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314632&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433014112 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314633&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013748 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314634&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013709

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314635&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013709 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314636&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433014223 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314637&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433014142 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314638&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013766


As you know, this tool is based on the Miller's Falls #43 (described here):
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan5.htm#num43

Noteworthy outtakes from conversation with Lie Nielsen:

1.
The tool is apparently the first in a "family" of related planes. As you know, LN doesn't have a moving fillister plane, and the tool shown here (being a Miller's Falls #43 clone) is just a stone's throw from the Miller's Falls #41 (& 42, 44), which you may know as a quasi-combination rabbet/fillister/plow plane. The is difference is that the 41 features an accessory 'fillister bottom' that attaches to the arm' posts that hold the fence. The fillister bottom sits between the fence and the body, and holds a skew blade and nicker making suitable to cutting rabbets. One would presume it will be something like this:
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan5.htm#num41

2.
The handle shape will be improved/refined over what you see here. The wood handle pictured was 'simply borrowed from a LN backsaw. Look at their dovetail & carcass saw handles. You'll see what I mean.

3.
There is currently no ETA on this tool, nor is there an ETA on the moving fillister variant that should follow it. However, now that the Lie Nielsen honing guide is just days away from being dropped, presumably LN will be able to focus in earnest on this tool, which I understand is the next plane in the product pipeline.

FYI:
I put my name on the master list list of people to be notified once a list is started to let people know that we can begin signing up for early notification about any pre-order lists that are expected to be rumored. :-)

[Karl Fife]

As promised, here are four more shots of the tool:

[Mike Brady]

I too had a chance to handle this plane at Handworks. I was impressed by the robustness of it, compared to other plow planes that I have experience with. I particularly like the depth adjustment and the way the spill is built into the cutter mechanism so that shavings are ejected away from the tool. This plow plane is the real deal. I'll just add this: "Lie-Nielsen...while were young?"

Thanks for the very nice photos Karl!

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for posting these Karl. I'm sure your post is going to draw a lot of attention from those of us who couldn't manage to get to Amana.

[Jim Koepke]

I particularly like the depth adjustment

My eyes are missing something. How is the depth adjusted?

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Loosen screw. Move cutter. Tighten screw.

[Karl Fife]

My eyes are missing something. How is the depth adjusted?

jtk

Look closely at the right hand side of the tool (starboard).

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You will see a 'sneck' on the blade (one side only) for tapping with a plane adjusting hammer. Groove cutting does not demand much in the way of precision, so this convenience is not strictly necessary, and affords more precision than is required. Even the original Miller's Falls #43 has NO adjusting sneck (on any example I've ever seen). If you can't identify the sneck, look for the little steel protuberance just below (and touching) the chip-deflector component.

In the plow plane competition department, 'certain people' at the LV/Veritas booth in Amana were talking about future subtle modifications to the skate of the (already versatile) Veritas plow plane, to allow for even more accessory cutters, especially beading cutters and profile type cutters. Is that a compelling case for the Veritas Plow plane? It is certainly a cheaper way to cut beads and moldings than even the smallest, most humble stable of dedicated planes. I'm guessing it will come down to a person's space, funds and tolerance for time spent in tool setup and changeover.

[Jim Koepke]

Loosen screw. Move cutter. Tighten screw.

Okay, the old fashioned way.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I heard they also are soon to release Sasquatch and the Chupacabra.
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Okay, but seriously- they haven't even worked out the handle yet? This thing was supposed to be released "early 2015." They don't even have the handle figured out? I'm not being cynical, but I'm feeling a bit misled at this point. I put off other purchases so I could have the $ the day this came out.

[Tom M King]

Mike, Nice quote! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN2xZkk59q4

[Derek Cohen]

Look closely at the right hand side of the tool (starboard).

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You will see a 'sneck' on the blade (one side only) for tapping with a plane adjusting hammer. Groove cutting does not demand much in the way of precision, so this convenience is not strictly necessary, and affords more precision than is required. Even the original Miller's Falls #43 has NO adjusting sneck (on any example I've ever seen). If you can't identify the sneck, look for the little steel protuberance just below (and touching) the chip-deflector component. ...

What prevents the blade from twisting when the sneck is tapped? Does the blade on on a T&G or against a stop?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

do the blades have grooves like traditional plow blades? That would solve Derek's twisting question.

I figure the delay is the extra time needed to re-jigger the entire display boards they use at shows, to accommodate a new, largish plane. We all know how projects like that get pushed to the bottom when something more exciting strikes your fancy. !

[Derek Cohen]

do the blades have grooves like traditional plow blades? That would solve Derek's twisting question.

(Sound of smacking my own head!) of course (I'm sure they do), silly me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

I dunno about this one. Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts. All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really? Stanley probably brought out planes at a faster rate without the help of computers and previous designs.

I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.

I'll have to wait (more) to see what the final version will be and of course the boutique price to go along with it but I'll reserve proper judgement until then.

[Jim Koepke]

I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.

Maybe they are just as obsessed with having slotted screws as you are with having them be something else.

In a pinch there is almost always something in my pocket that can turn a slot head screw. When purchasing brass screws for my shop, I will go out of my way to find slot head screws.

Almost every household in America has at least one screwdriver for slot head screws and if not, they likely have a butter knife that will do the job. Phillips drivers not only come in second, it is more dicey when it comes to all the different sizes and variances from metric to inch.

If you want to convert the way things are done, you will have better luck with religion than you will with manufacturing.

As to LN going with the Miller's patent design, it isn't my cup of tea. There is a reason the #45 came along and surpassed this design. The later 'combination' planes were much more versatile.

jtk

[Paul Sidener]

My eyes are missing something. How is the depth adjusted?

jtk

With the bronze adjuster.





http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314634&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013709
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=314638&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1433013766

[Jim Koepke]

With the bronze adjuster.

Oops! My thoughts were on the blade depth adjustment.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Maybe the nice photos above aren't convincing enough, but since I have seen the plane and a video of it in use, I honestly can't imagine what Jim and Hilton are talking about. I can tell you that I would switch to this plane in a New York minute, and that would mean having to sell the one I currently own that all of you think is fantastic. Just don't ask me when that will be, because the time continuum in my universe is not the same one as in Warren, Maine. Which screws should they use? Allen, Torx, Robertson, Hex, Imperial, Metric? None of which I can find a driver for when I need one.

[steven c newman]

Till it does come out, and I win a Lotto....
Guess I'm just stuck with this thing...
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Don't get me wrong, this does work

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I bought a LN Chisel Plane on eBay that someone had swapped the screw on for a hex screw. I am ordering a proper slotted replacement.

[Jim Koepke]

I dunno about this one. Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts. All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really? Stanley probably brought out planes at a faster rate without the help of computers and previous designs.

I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.

I'll have to wait (more) to see what the final version will be and of course the boutique price to go along with it but I'll reserve proper judgement until then.


Maybe the nice photos above aren't convincing enough, but since I have seen the plane and a video of it in use, I honestly can't imagine what Jim and Hilton are talking about. I can tell you that I would switch to this plane in a New York minute, and that would mean having to sell the one I currently own that all of you think is fantastic. Just don't ask me when that will be, because the time continuum in my universe is not the same one as in Warren, Maine. Which screws should they use? Allen, Torx, Robertson, Hex, Imperial, Metric? None of which I can find a driver for when I need one.

Nor do I understand what Hilton means by "Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts."

We got sidetracked into a conversation on screw driving interface preferences. Perhaps if there were antique drivers with hex drive, Robertson drive, Phillips drive etc. folks could use while reliving the experience of yesteryear we would see different screw driving interfaces on our modern reproductions. All my old planes, saws, spokeshaves and other tools have slot drive screws. Why change now?

Lie-Nielsen is using modern day manufacturing to produce (reproduce?) a design from the early days of Stanley's product line. It is a beautiful looking tool. It will do a job many people have a need or desire to perform. There are many tools in my shop that will perform any function this 'new' offering is able to undertake. Most of them are capable of tasks of which this one is not capable.

It is all a matter of taste. Some of us enjoy bright new shiny things on our shelves or nestled in their own special places. Some of us like to see the patina of a long useful life waiting silently for its next challenge on a hunk of lumber.

jtk

[Karl Fife]

All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really?

Nearly 100% of Lie Nielsen's plane designs are copies. That is not some kind of insightful observation, rather, that is precisely the cornerstone and defining characteristic of their business. LN is in the business of making the best possible versions of old tool designs, while taking advantage of modern materials, methods and metrology. By contrast, Lee Valley & Veritas is in a slightly different business, which is the business of coming up with new-and-improved designs.

Which approach is better? The answer is that it's better for us AND them to have both approaches, so taht we, the consumers, end-user can be über-fussy, and choose the one that makes something deep within us us say:
"Mmmm... Zog like tool. Tool good. Fire good... (woman, beer etc...)"

Case in point:
Take a look at the staggeringly good Veritas Shooting Plane. IMO it's an improvement over anything that's ever been offered. In "shop-talk-live" terms, I would call it "The all-time best shooting plane of all time". For me, New-and-improved design is preferable.

By contrast, look at the Veritas plow? It's excellent and versatile tool, but I suspect the the design will fall short of the Millers Falls #43 clone in the role of plow-only. For me, the traditional design is preferable, even if it means I have to use a different tool for T&G, rabbets, mouldings etc.

For other people it may be different. If someone is of the combination plane mentality, they'll probably prefer a historic Stanley, or even the contemporary Veritas plow. Still, that's a decision that we have. Truly in the realm of first-world 'problems'. Meanwhile, I'll continue to use my well-worn slotting cutter in my router table while I wait for Lie Nielsen to build and validate the manufacturing process for their plow. I'll count on them delaying it as long as they need to to avoid any compromise in execution--another reason why I like their stuff.

[Karl Fife]

I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.

This again?!!

You are clearly in the vanishing minority of people who want something other than slotted screws. Keep that in mind.

Having said that, I appreciate and respect your desire to tweak and improve things without being shackled to (and by) convention. It's a trait common to all innovators. Do yourself, and a favor, and discover Fastenal.com, McMaster-carr etc. and get out and modify your own tools, and let this be the end of it.

There's a very good reason for using slotted screws versus ANY other type. It's called consistency, convention and/or convenience. If you own any woodworking tools (especially planes), you definitely also have a straight-blade screwdriver right there next to it. That's why you see slotted screws. Period.

Case in point, today I'm re-manufacturing the knurled brass knob (the depth-set screw) for my Veritas skew-rabbet plane to a accept a chipbreaker screwdriver. This way I can make the depth screw tight enough to prevent slipping, while avoiding the Chris Schwarz method of tearing the screw up with a pair of pliers. I chose the width and depth of the slot to cut by measuring the chip-breaker screwdriver that's already on my bench. If my planes and tools used T-40, Posidriv, or PH3, I would have used that instead.

Ain't nothin' wrong with driving on the right side of the road; there ain't nothin' wrong with driving on the left, but in any theoretical difference between them is totally dwarfed by the usefulness of it being the same today as it was yesterday.

[Mike Brady]

Karl, while you're milling that slotted knob for the plow (why should we have to do that at $275.?) make another one for the MkII narrow blade head. It's got the same problem.

[Karl Fife]

milling that slotted knob for the plow (why should we have to do that at $275.?)

Funny you should say that. At Handworks, I mentioned the skew rabbet plane screw modification to Robin Lee. He said something like "yeah, we thought about doing that originally, but ultimately decided against it because using a screwdriver on a soft brass screw would have made it easy to snap off the head". If I remember correctly, he also said they're going to be modifying the screw somehow to address this. I would guess by using a different material, but I didn't ask. Robin and I talked for a good long time. I have new respect for the difficult of designing good tools. It's amazing how many of my 'good ideas' they'd already thought of, and decided against for reasons I'd never thought of.

IMO that may be one of the reasons that LN has done so well copying old designs. For every good design idea that you notice, there may be five or more carefully considered ideas that you're totally unaware of.

[Frederick Skelly]

This again?!!

You are clearly in the vanishing minority of people who want something other than slotted screws. Keep that in mind.

There's a very good reason for using slotted screws versus ANY other type. It's called consistency, convention and/or convenience. If you own any woodworking tools (especially planes), you definitely also have a straight-blade screwdriver right there next to it. That's why you see slotted screws. Period.

Seems like a credible interpretation of the rationale for hundreds of years of tool design. Doesn't invalidate his desire for something else. I share the desire for a different solution than slotted screws - from the manufacturer. (Despite owning an excellent set of drivers from LV, I never seem to have a slotted driver that's as wide as the slot is long. So I end up marring the screw.) Personally, I have NO desire to modify expensive tools. But they aren't going to change just for a minority like me - for all the reasons cited above. So I deal with it. IMO, it's still a fair grumble here on SMC. :)

Fred

[Mike Brady]

It would be interesting to be part of that process. I saw from your photos and commentary that the plow plane handle is still evolving. The first prototype I saw had more of a clam shell handle. This one is adapted from a saw handle. Neither will appear for sale without more modification, most likely. Cost is certainly a decider for any manufacturer. You notice that the LN sharpening jig is stainless. When LV did their honing guide they undoubtedly opted for cheaper casting where machined stainless would have been a superior, but more costly choice. In my opinion, Lee Valley in more likely to compromise for the sake of cost saving than Lie-Nielsen because they are more retail price sensitive. Their respective plow planes are a good example. Side-by-side, the differences are obvious. Even the name "small plow plane" hints that there may some day be a large plow plane, which is what Lie-Nielsen will eventually release.

[Ray Selinger]

The standards for slots on screws is so loose that no one screwdriver is going to fit. Gunsmiths get around this by making bits for each screw. On a rifle I like allenheads, for the rest, Robertson. They are over 100 years old now.

[Frederick Skelly]

The standards for slots on screws is so loose that no one screwdriver is going to fit. Gunsmiths get around this by making bits for each screw. On a rifle I like allenheads, for the rest, Robertson. They are over 100 years old now.

Thanks Ray. I like Allenheads and Robertsons too. Far better than slots for my fumbly hands.
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

Same here and all kinds of screws are used in my shop. I don't think those who use non-slotted screws are in the minority; in fact, I'd argue they are in the majority judging from the screws we can find in big box hardware stores. There are pros and cons in all types of screws. If you want to modify a knob on a tool, of course, it is the simplest (or easiest) to cut a slot. I have never found the need to make any modifications to my plow plane and I intend to keep it that way.

Simon

[george wilson]

I like the look of slotted screws myself,on objects that have a vintage design type of look. For example, it really bothers me when I see an infill plane with allen head button screws used on it.

What kind of screws did you have in mind? BTW,the wood handle is pretty ugly. They left the front of the handle as a straight line,though the back side is contoured properly. I don't get it.

[Mike Brady]

Kind of old news, but here is a video from 2013 showing the plow in use by Deneb of Lie-Nielsen: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/woodworking-in-america-2013/?as=WIA&mode=posts&ap=1&apt=video

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Wow- They had a working prototype in October of 2013, and we still don't have it released? Anyway, it looks very nice, and heavy. I believe it is important for a plane of this nature to have some heft to it. I love the bronze details; as always with Lie-Nielsen, it looks like a work of art.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for posting Karl! Did you happen to move the fence at all? I have a record 50c (I think that's the model) with the same 2 rod fence, it is easy to clamp it out of parallel if there is even a slight amount of play in the rods.!

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for posting Karl! Did you happen to move the fence at all? I have a record 50c (I think that's the model) with the same 2 rod fence, it is easy to clamp it out of parallel if there is even a slight amount of play in the rods.!

Even with the no play in the rods it can be a challenge to get the fence set square. This may be one of the problems with older plow/combination planes people have trying to get them to work for them.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

The Veritas Small Plow is very reliable in setting the fence square. The fence issue was the reason I went to the lengths of a bridle fence when I built a plough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I do agree Derek that the bridle looks to be the best method for fence adjustment especially on the wooden plow planes.

Derek, do you use your shop made plow much these days? I am curious how it is working out for you, it is probably one of the most beautiful planes I've seen and think you really outdid yourself on that one. I would love to attempt such a project but finding irons in that good of shape is not easy and the time it would take me to make such a plane would not be worth it.

[george wilson]

I have invested in a set of Brownell's interchangeable screwdriver tip sets. I can always find the perfect fitting tip for turning screws on expensive guns,and I will not use anything else. Phillips head or other non slotted screws would look horrible on Colt Peacemakers or the like.

As far as buggering a screw,I have seen just as many rutted out Phillips screws as buggered slot screws. Even Allen heads will soon wear out unless a decently hard grade of steel is used in them. I always have to replace the Allen head screws in Chinese made metal lathe tool holders. They get ruined very fast. So,I order a box full of Hollo Chrome or other good brand of screws to replace them as a matter of normal course. I don't even wait for them to get buggered up.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I really hope LN get the fence issue right.... if there is anything to be improved upon on the old ones it's the fence, both functionally and ergonomically.

[Derek Cohen]

I do agree Derek that the bridle looks to be the best method for fence adjustment especially on the wooden plow planes.

Derek, do you use your shop made plow much these days? I am curious how it is working out for you, it is probably one of the most beautiful planes I've seen and think you really outdid yourself on that one. I would love to attempt such a project but finding irons in that good of shape is not easy and the time it would take me to make such a plane would not be worth it.

Hi Tony

And thanks for the kind words about the plough. It does get used, but not as much as the Veritas ... simply because the latter is so quick to set up and generally has the right blade ready to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kent A Bathurst]

I heard they also are soon to release Sasquatch and the Chupacabra.

Okay, but seriously- they haven't even worked out the handle yet? This thing was supposed to be released "early 2015." They don't even have the handle figured out?

Whine, whine, whine.........



I dunno about this one. Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts. All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really? Stanley probably brought out planes at a faster rate without the help of computers and previous designs.
....whine, whine whine.......what in the hell has been their business plan since day one? God Bless us all they are not BCT............

A couple guys have seen one in the wild. That's all. Actual experience should be no impediment. Let the flogging begin.........




I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.


Ummm......you mean that large portfolio of LN tools, all of which use slotted screws? I'm sorry - I meant "silly" slotted screws. This critter is clearly the correct time to break away from that strategy ??? I got enough morphine-derivative products on my bench to go to the streets in ATL and get enough $$ to buy one of these, and even I am wondering what you are on, Hilton.


Maybe they are just as obsessed with having slotted screws as you are with having them be something else.

No foolin....
Full repertoire of slotted drivers available for an exact fit to plane screws. My money says the chipbreaker screwdriver will fit the screw in this spot, in production.......


munch, munch, munch...........

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[Malcolm Schweizer]

I don't think it's whining when they keep saying "soon come" and they still don't have a handle figured out. You don't do interviews announcing it will be released "early in 2015" when you don't even have a handle for it.

The screw thing, however, I agree that's a bit whiny.

Either take more or less of those meds- one or the other.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The screw thing, however, I agree that's a bit whiny.

;)


Either take more or less of those meds- one or the other.

haven't taken a single pill.........trying to not go down that path.........just riding the storm out........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVFgEBq0EKM

[Allen Jordan]

I tried this plane out a little at Handworks as well. Seems solidly built. I don't have much experience with plow/combo planes, so I wasn't sure how the depth adjustment worked. I seem to remember the blade having a groove to keep it aligned with the body's corresponding notch.

[Mark Stutz]

I got to play with this a little in Amana as well, and would agree that it is solidly built and true to its roots. I initially had some problem keeping il square. The fence a narrower that any combo, or wooden plow, and is closer to the work since there is no auxiliary wooden fence, but using your gand as a fence, like I would when edge jointing, worked well.

[Brian Dormer]

Ooooooo..... I just felt my wallet get lighter.

Although I have a Vintage 1910 Stanley 45. I still think I need one of these. So I can preserve the Stanley for the future. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Karl Fife]

Thanks for posting Karl! Did you happen to move the fence at all? I have a record 50c (I think that's the model) with the same 2 rod fence, it is easy to clamp it out of parallel if there is even a slight amount of play in the rods.!

No, but I should have. So is the issue with your Record is that you can rack the fence while the clamps are loose, or is it that it slips even when clamped?

[Karl Fife]

Thanks to the folks who pointed out that this tool has nothing to do with Miller's Falls, but rather Miller's *patent*.

Doubtless this refers to Charles G. Miller who was issued Patent US US 131367 A, an "Improvement in carpenters plows" in 1872.

https://www.google.com/patents/US131367

[Dave Ellis]

I see this mistake often. This is a "Miller's Patent" style plane developed by Stanley, NOT a Miller's Falls plane. Even Lie-Nielsen himself accidently misspoke in a recent taping from 2014 and initially called the Lie-Nielsen version of this design a Millers Falls plane but then quickly corrected the error and properly identified it as a "Miller's Patent" style plane. Miller worked for Stanley and was responsible for the design. I don't believe Millers Falls ever had a similar product.
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[Dave Ellis]

Not Miller's Falls. The original basis for the new Lie-Nielsen plow plane is the "Miller's Patent" plan manufactured by Stanley Tool and Level. I don't believe that Miller's Falls ever produced such a plane. Charles Miller worked for Stanley and developed the design which he patented and once Stanley purchased the patent rights they proceeded to manufacture the plane. Miller is responsible for many other Stanley joinery planes in addition to this one.

[Paul Sidener]

How many blades are going to be available for the plane? Is it going to be just one, or an assortment like the Veritas?

[James W Glenn]

I know the guy who makes screws for LN's planes, or at least he was 10 years ago. I'm not sure if WWII vintage turret lathes will "cut" a Torx head.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I know the guy who makes screws for LN's planes, or at least he was 10 years ago.

He probably died waiting for LN to bring out a new tool. This thread is now more than a month old and guess what?

[Brian Holcombe]

I plan to buy one and leave it in the box for a few years...to further build the anticipation.

[Matthew N. Masail]

No, but I should have. So is the issue with your Record is that you can rack the fence while the clamps are loose, or is it that it slips even when clamped?

yes the fence can rack while loose, even though the fit of the bars to the holes is very close. it almost always clamps out of square.
once clamped it doesn't slip, but the small thumb screws requires the use of a screw driver to lock tight.


One needs to adjust the fence square once one side is locked. this means repeated settings are fiddly to achieve as this changes the setting slightly...


I guess this system would need ball bearings or something to work accurately ? I think mechanically there are other ways that would be be much more reliable.

[Mike Brady]

I'm not sure if WWII vintage turret lathes will "cut" a Torx head.

Now that's funny!;)

[James W Glenn]

He probably died waiting for LN to bring out a new tool. This thread is now more than a month old and guess what?

LN tools may be priced for hedge fund managers and plastic surgeons, but in my past experience, they are made by skilled craftsfolk. I have been critical of their products, in a stomp into the show room, fix this #### now, kind of way, but I cant speak for the concerns of the average consumer.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I love LN, I have 2 of thier saw and they are fantastically made and balanced. My concern is based on the design itself, not on who is making it.

[Brian Holcombe]

LN tools may be priced for hedge fund managers and plastic surgeons, but in my past experience, they are made by skilled craftsfolk. I have been critical of their products, in a stomp into the show room, fix this #### now, kind of way, but I cant speak for the concerns of the average consumer.

I think it's average on pricing, not really out there. You can buy most of their catalog for about the same price as a cabinet saw and a planer.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I plan to buy one and leave it in the box for a few years...to further build the anticipation.

You need to buy two sequentially numbered ones; then you can sell one for $1600.

[James W Glenn]

I think it's average on pricing, not really out there. You can buy most of their catalog for about the same price as a cabinet saw and a planer.

With my personal economic criteria, I only own 3 LN planes, and in general they are models whose utility I could not replicate with restored planes and upgraded blades. A modern plough plane is on my short list, and was a part of of my decision to purchase a vintage contractors saw for my lumber processing needs verses a full cabinet saw set up for joinery. That particular Powermatic will be haunt me as "one that got away" but I only have so many kidneys to work with.

[Brian Holcombe]

You need to buy two sequentially numbered ones; then you can sell one for $1600.

Does numbering them with sharpie count?


With my personal economic criteria, I only own 3 LN planes, and in general they are models whose utility I could not replicate with restored planes and upgraded blades. A modern plough plane is on my short list, and was a part of of my decision to purchase a vintage contractors saw for my lumber processing needs verses a full cabinet saw set up for joinery. That particular Powermatic will be haunt me as "one that got away" but I only have so many kidneys to work with.

Hah, I know that feeling....I've asked them if they had any dishes that I could wash...

[Steve Bates]

Funny, yes, but it can. It's not a "cut", it's broached.

[Andrew Hansen]

They had this exact same tool (the bottom of the handle looks slightly different, like it was sanded down a wee bit) in 2013 and people were frothing all over it (me included). At the time, Lie-Nielsen was promising to release it early 2014. As in 18 months ago. They trot out the exact same tool and promise to release it soon again. I held my breath a little while (10 months?), then bought a Lee Valley and love it. I own many of the more "top shelf" LN planes, but I won't be buying this one... probably. (Sorry this is an old thread, I google LN plow plane every so often and see what's new - I missed this when it first came out)

See this review in 2013: https://whilethegluedries.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/lie-nielsen-plow-plane-debut/#jp-carousel-442

[Karl Fife]

Don't apologize for revving an old thread. Nothing wrong with 'Necroposting'. :-)


I think it's average on pricing, not really out there. You can buy most of their catalog for about the same price as a cabinet saw and a planer.

I think an economist might say that ALL of the Lie Nielsen tools are quite inexpensive compared to the cost of an original Stanley in its day. The economist would probably argue that you should be looking at the cost of a particular plane (say the number 8) in inflation-adjusted dollars (i.e. how many hours did a carpenter have to work BACK THEN compared to the number of hours a carpenter has to work TODAY in order to buy that equivalent #8 jointer plane).

I suspect that a modern Lie-Nielsen would be (on average) considerably less expensive to buy today than it was then, and that would be if we completely ignore for a moment the fact that a modern Lie Nielsen is actually a superior tool, made with superior manufacturing methods and materials than the Stanley originals.

I think the takeaway from this might be that Veritas, yes Veritas tools, might literally [literally] be the woodworking deal of the century. Consider that Veritas tools are less expensive on average than an equivalent Lie Nielsen, yet they are outstanding tools, superior to the Stanley originals. It's crazy when you think about it like that--especially considering how much we complain about prices. It's maybe crazier still when you consider just how incredibly inexpensive 'ordinary' non-premium tools are. Make no mistake; I can't afford all of the tools I want, but I owe it to myself to be happy about how many more fine tools I have than my grandfather did--and he likely worked more hours than I do.

If somebody can find some prices/facts to shoot down my theory, please chime in. I'd love nothing more than to see this proven wrong or right.

[Steve Clardy]

You need to buy two sequentially numbered ones; then you can sell one for $1600.


Awesome response. :rolleyes:

[Karl Fife]

At the Chicago hand tool event a few weeks back, they said that the plow is literally just weeks away. Please don't ask me how many, I don't know, and neither do they. They've been focusing heavily on this tool now that developing the the honing guide isn't consuming their resources.

It should be interesting.

[Mike Cherry]

Just in time for my tax return...muhahahaha

[Chris Hachet]

At the tool event in Kentucky, I was told they had no idea when it would come out, but they were working on it. YMMV.

[Hilton Ralphs]

So a year later and still nothing? In the meantime, Lee Valley has launched their new plow plane and bought serious loyalty by providing a no frills and easy modification to owners of existing planes.

Just saying...

[Mike Brady]

Apples vs. oranges.

[Brian Holcombe]

They are still making a plow plane? :p

[Steve Voigt]

So a year later and still nothing? In the meantime, Lee Valley has launched their new plow plane and bought serious loyalty by providing a no frills and easy modification to owners of existing planes.

Just saying...

Just out of curiosity, why is it that virtually every post you write is either bashing Lie Nielsen, singing the praises of Lee Valley, or both? It's like LV is your hometown football team and LN is the hated rival from the next village. I literally can't think of any other poster here who devotes so much time to trashing one particular tool company. Maybe you could give it a rest. It's not a zero sum game.

For the record, I think they're both great companies…

[Mike Brady]

Hilton needs to be reminded that LV was offering a fix for their plow plane that went uncorrected for over two years when they decided to issue new parts and modifications. Very commendable, but also a great example of what Lie-Nielsen is wanting to avoid by withholding new products until they are fully ready. Stuff happens in manufacturing. We should celebrate that there are many well run companies in our hobby with which to do business.

[Kenneth Fisher]

There's a picture of it in Deneb Puchalski's article "The Core Hand Tools" in the April 2016 issue of Popular Woodworking. Look very nice, assuming that's the final version. Great article as well.

[Chris Hachet]

So a year later and still nothing? In the meantime, Lee Valley has launched their new plow plane and bought serious loyalty by providing a no frills and easy modification to owners of existing planes.

Just saying...


You really have to love how commited to innovation Lee Valley really is....

[Karl Fife]

Yep! Both are great companies. We're all very lucky to have more than one company with world class customer service competing for our attention.

As to the occasional sense of entitlement that I sense in this forum about "They really ought to be done by now", seems absolutely naive to me.

Nobody who has ever brought a product to market would ever presume to know such a thing, especially for a small company that is trying to maintain quality, service and support as they grow. In case anyone is unclear on the comparative sizes of LV and LN, one would expect LV to outpace them in terms of time to market, R&D budget, capital equipment etc., similar to the way you'd expect Lie Nielsen to outpace... me. :-)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Just winding you up Karl. All good. ;)

[Paul Sidener]

So a year later and still nothing? In the meantime, Lee Valley has launched their new plow plane and bought serious loyalty by providing a no frills and easy modification to owners of existing planes.

Just saying...

What you don't know, is how long Veritas was working on that project. That is not something that happened overnight. Their R&D can just keep a secret, better than Lie Nielsen. I own the Veritas and have had the mod done already. The way that they handled it was not flawless. I was sent packaging for Canadian residents, They had to send me a different shipping label. I would like to try the Lie Nielsen plane, it very well could be better. You don't know until you try both, on the work that you do. They are both top notch companies!

Just saying.........

[Dale Murray]

So a year later and still nothing? In the meantime, Lee Valley has launched their new plow plane and bought serious loyalty by providing a no frills and easy modification to owners of existing planes.

Just saying...

Honestly, I dreamed of having a load of Lie-Nielsen planes for many years - my wife even bought me a #8 for an anniversary present - but now I may be on the LV bandwagon. Two things brought me to this conclusion:
1. An article about the two brands where the two were compared as such, Lie-Nielsen is like Classical music and LV is like Jazz. In classical you play it note for note, in jazz you take all the good bits and pieces and improvise making something new and hopefully better. Considering they are engineers working on these things its safe to assume there are no random notes in the mix; all very calculated and researched.
2. I recently bought a LV 4-1/2 custom. While it is a bit annoying not being able to adjust the depth and alignment with the rear hand it IS very well made. I do hesitate when I need to pull the blade for a quick edge touch-up like I do with my #8.

Ultimately, I dont believe the LV tools are as pretty as the LN but what should I care about, looks or function? I'll go with function.

As for the two plow planes?
Smacking a blade around with a hammer is not for me, I would go with the LV for sure.

When I need a plow/rabbet plane I use my #55 (I have all the cutters plus a few duplicates), I like that is has two skates and nickers on both sides.

[Reinis Kanders]

Smacking a blade around with a hammer is not for me, I would go with the LV for sure.


In my experience hammer taps are more precise than most other things. I laterally tap blade even on bailey style if I need very even even projection.

[Karl Fife]

In my experience hammer taps are more precise than most other things. I laterally tap blade even on bailey style if I need very even even projection.

When I was new to woodworking, I was quite surprised by the precision of hammer taps. As a noob, a plane hammer seemed so needlessly unrefined to me. I didn't like the idea of hitting my beautiful, hard-won new hand plane with a hammer. I assumed that people liked plane hammers because of nostalgia, and a love of old methods. I was totally wrong, and recently, I literally returned an excellent plane because of its inability to be conveniently adjusted with a plane hammer. See item #2 in the link below.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?230880-Disappointed-with-LV-apron-plane&p=2555133#post2555133

[john zulu]

Need to be patient. Good tools takes time to come out. That being said..... I will skip this tool as I already own a plow plane from LV.
I am still eyeing more tools like the chisel plane from LN. Cannot get enough of bronze tools

[Karl Fife]

The bronze bench and block planes are great, but I dislike bronze joinery planes. They always leave bronze oxide marks that need to be cleaned up separately, and that's needless hassle.

Bench and block planes are no problem because typically they move over a larger area, meaning any potential marking is spread over a larger area. Secondly (and more importantly), bench and block planes remove the layer they're bearing on. Before one or two passes, any oxides have been rubbed clean from the bottom of the plane. Moreover the marked wood (if any) has most certainly been removed. Zero problems.

This is not so with joinery planes. My Lie Nielsen Infill Bronze shoulder plane, while a beautiful object in a very useful size and package, would leave oxide marks where the sides would rub. As a shoulder plane, this was usually irrelevant, but not always. Bronze chisel plane is the worst offender, because you're often concentrating your movement in a single spot. It often leaves a mess on what might otherwise be a finish-ready surface. I'd have bought the chisel plane in Iron if it had been offered. I may try to laminate a piece of stainless steel to the bottom of the chisel plane. I don't use the chisel plane it as much since getting a wide Japanese paring chisel especially since the 'usu' doesn't leave marks.

Walke Moore tools has an incredible bronze router plane soon to be released. It's the same thing. Since it's bronze, you'll have to clean up the reference/bearing surfaces every time you use it. Not a deal breaker, but again, needless hassle.

[Frederick Skelly]

The bronze bench and block planes are great, but I dislike bronze joinery planes. They always leave bronze oxide marks that need to be cleaned up separately, and that's needless hassle.

Bench and block planes are no problem because typically they move over a larger area, meaning any potential marking is spread over a larger area. Secondly (and more importantly), bench and block planes remove the layer they're bearing on. Before one or two passes, any oxides have been rubbed clean from the bottom of the plane. Moreover the marked wood (if any) has most certainly been removed. Zero problems.

This is not so with joinery planes. My Lie Nielsen Infill Bronze shoulder plane, while a beautiful object in a very useful size and package, would leave oxide marks where the sides would rub. As a shoulder plane, this was usually irrelevant, but not always. Bronze chisel plane is the worst offender, because you're often concentrating your movement in a single spot. It often leaves a mess on what might otherwise be a finish-ready surface. I'd have bought the chisel plane in Iron if it had been offered. I may try to laminate a piece of stainless steel to the bottom of the chisel plane. I don't use the chisel plane it as much since getting a wide Japanese paring chisel especially since the 'usu' doesn't leave marks.

Walke Moore tools has an incredible bronze router plane soon to be released. It's the same thing. Since it's bronze, you'll have to clean up the reference/bearing surfaces every time you use it. Not a deal breaker, but again, needless hassle.

Ken, I wonder if spraying lacquer on the offending surface of the bronze tool would solve this without impairing the tool's use? Might be something to try if it's really a problem for you.

FWIW,
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-49304.html?


I think it is oxidation from the plane sole wiping off onto the surface of the wood. First, see whether it continues as you use the plane.
If this happened to me, I'd first try waxing the sole, then if that didn't work, follow whatever LN's recommendation for polishing the bronze was -- some kind of polishing cloth, I believe. See whether that takes care of the problem.
Like I said above, this hasn't happened with my 2 bronze planes, but I've heard about it from others and LN mention it in their product notes.
I love my bronze planes because I consider them to be "low maintenance" compared to my iron planes that call for oiling to prevent rust.
-Andy


Andrew, I took your advice. Everything is fine and dandy now, thanks for the tips! And yes, I agree with your summation of bronze vs. iron. I live in a damp part of the country, and am looking forward to less rust-stress. Thanks again, Terek.

[Mike Allen1010]

;)

haven't taken a single pill.........trying to not go down that path.........just riding the storm out........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVFgEBq0EKM

Kent, reading this thread reminded me how much I enjoy your posts! Please come back to SMC – we need more 70s hair band references! Your unique sense of humor can't be replaced.

I hope your shoulder is feeling better and that you're able to have some fun in the shop.

Best regards, Mike

[allen long]

I agree with you Mike on loving great 70s refereces. I beg to differ however on REO Speedwagon being a hair band. They were a band who happened to have big hair. Big difference. Sort of like calling Lynyrd Skynyrd or Black Sabbath a hair band. I was there - with the long hair and a cheesy mustache to compete with even the most bodacious of used car salesmen or pornstar staches the 70s had to offer. Hair bands were a product of the most musically bankrupt / barren of decades - the 80s. Rise of the drum machine and synth bass but heralding a short fall of music. Man but did they know how to rock the clothing and hair though! Music of the 70s A+ (disco doesn't count) Fashion of the 70s as cheesy as the music of the 80s.

Sorry . . . Got caught up in the heat of the moment. What the . . .Wait . . . That was from the 80s.

[allen long]

So that is what causes the marks when I use the chisel plane. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. (At least that is what my wife would say)

[steven c newman]

I think I will just keep my #45 awhile, thank you very much....
341567
Along with the 24 basic cutters.....

[Karl Fife]

So that is what causes the marks when I use the chisel plane. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. (At least that is what my wife would say)

I've talked directly to Deneb, and Tom LN, about how the rationale for the chisel plane being be a better tool in ductile iron vs Bronze (for multiple reasons, not just bronze staining). They totally get it, but I SUSPECT they sell comparatively few chisel planes, so putting resources toward new patterns (to accomodate iron shrinkage vs bronze) is understandably low on the priority list--especially when we're all here clamoring for them to finish the plow etc. I do really like that tool though.