Lee Valley Customizeable planes - 40 degree frog?

[Pedro Reyes]

With the relatively recent rediscovery of the cap iron effects on reducing tearout, and the craze around that as the main contributor... allegedly ahead of mouth tightness and cutting angle.

Has anyone tried a smoothing plane with 40 degree frog, and a closely set chipbreaker. (and compared it to a 45 degree?)

All other things being equal (mouth opening, chip breaker distance from edge, plane body), does anyone have any empirical data or ideas as to how the different cutting angles perform?

Pedro

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I bought it with 40 deg and found it would not work well with closely set chipbreaker without also honing the chipbreaker to about 40+ deg. This was also explored by Derek Cohen elsewhere on his blog and this site.

I'll eventually get a 50 deg frog just to make life simpler and if I were doing it again I would not get 40 deg unless you mostly intend to use it for end-grain work. I suspect most people who spend this kind of money on planes have other tools for end grain work.

[Terry Beadle]

I got a Japanese kana that's set at 42 degrees and I have the chip breaker close to the cutting edge. It's is the go to plane for pine and other soft woods. Really works well.
Not the same as a metal plane but just as functional IMO.

[Warren Mickley]

I altered a Bailey plane to cut at 42 degrees around 1982. It leaves a surface that is very slightly better than the 45 degree plane, but not enough that I would recommend buying it to replace a standard plane. It is not as noticeable as the difference between 45 and 50 or 55. I think the Bailey plane was set at 45 to give plenty of cushion to guys who honed at 34 degrees and up. Forty degrees is closer to the ideal, but I think most could improve their surfaces more by refining their double iron technique.

[Mark Stutz]

Forty degrees is closer to the ideal, but I think most could improve their surfaces more by refining their double iron technique.


I'm slowly catching up on all the discussion about this, since I've been away for a few years. Back then the general advice was to set the chipbreaker "close to the edge" so I took that literally!

When you refer to 40 degrees as ideal, are you referring to honing the blade at 40 degrees? or the bedding angle,i.e. the 40 degree frog?

[Warren Mickley]

When you refer to 40 degrees as ideal, are you referring to honing the blade at 40 degrees? or the bedding angle,i.e. the 40 degree frog?
I mean that the ideal bedding angle is in the 40 degree range. The problem is that a guy who is a little sloppy honing by hand can have the sharpening angle creep up to 35-40 degrees, which then results in clearance problems. There ought to be 8-12 degrees of clearance between the bevel and the sole. In other words 8-12 degree difference between bedding angle and honing angle. A forty degree bed is alright if you can hone at precisely 30; a forty five degree bed gives a lot more leeway.

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks, Warren. Got it.

[Derek Cohen]

With the relatively recent rediscovery of the cap iron effects on reducing tearout, and the craze around that as the main contributor... allegedly ahead of mouth tightness and cutting angle.

Has anyone tried a smoothing plane with 40 degree frog, and a closely set chipbreaker. (and compared it to a 45 degree?)

All other things being equal (mouth opening, chip breaker distance from edge, plane body), does anyone have any empirical data or ideas as to how the different cutting angles perform?

Pedro

Hi Petro

When the Veritas Custom Planes came out I saw the opportunity to make a series of comparisons, one of which was the frog angle. While I did not go lower than 42 degrees on the smoother (strongly influenced by my curiosity in replicating Warren's set up), I was able to compare a 40 degree frog on the #7 jointer.

The article is in 4 parts, with the frog section here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes4.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes4_html_m70720e1c.jpg

Of course, planing at this low angle is only possible when using the chipbreaker. My thought is that leeway reduces as the frog angle is lowered. I would not recommend a frog this low for someone first starting down this path.

There is a difference in the quality of the surface planed at different cutting angles, but this is essentially unnoticeable on hardwoods especially after they are given a coating of oil.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes4_html_m126cb7b9.jpg

For most, I would still suggest that 50 degrees is a good compromise. There is more leeway in setting up a chipbreaker on significantly interlocked grain, and enough height to avoid needing to do so with many of your local woods. I also agree with Warren that 45 degrees is another good compromise, and one I am happy with, which will suit those with more experience in the use of a hanplane with a chipbreaker.

The full article starts here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pedro Reyes]

Thanks to all that replied, Derek thank you specially for taking the time to post the pictures here. I found your article because Marko mentioned it. I should have posted that I read all your review articles to save everyone the trouble. Excellent write up as well, so thanks for that too.

I have a LN with a high angle frog, but it is harder to push, I figured that a low bed angle with a very tight chipbreaker may be an alternative, and it appears it is.

/p