Ambrosia maple blotching

[David Ragan]

Following Kent's great personal tutorial on shellac as a dealer, I took the 3/4 cut and used it
the problem is now blotching- when I use a 1.5 lb cut, I have to Let the dye set for 15 seconds or so, but still some blotching
i guess it's possible that tomorrow am, when I try a finish I could be pleasantly surprised that all went well-meaning relatively dark brown w no blotching
am using TransFast Dk Wnut @ 4x recommended starting strength.....4oz weight powder per 2 quarts
sanded to 220
i have become open to idea of spraying lacquer instead of polyurethane

[John TenEyck]

If you have spray equipment you should spray the dye. There will be no blotching as long as you don't go hog wild and spray so heavily that it puddles on the wood.

John

[David Ragan]

If you have spray equipment you should spray the dye. There will be no blotching as long as you don't go hog wild and spray so heavily that it puddles on the wood.

John

I really appreciate your input John:D

I Have no spray equipment.

Spraying works better with this cause youre not pushing the dye down into the wood fibers, right? I mean, the basic problem with blotching is that you have a disorganized array/orientation of wood fibers there. The wood fibers absorb the dye differently than thier neighbors......so they appear blotchy..... And, if you smooth them all down with higher sanding grit (in the extreme case,ie Micro Mesh sanding-you are burnishing the wood), then it will be difficult to get any dye to take, right?

Is my thinking correct here:confused:?

what I will have, in a couple of days is darker dye from TransFast--Mission Brown, I believe is what I ordered; and some Black.

However, I anticipate that I will have the same problems that I do now, just darker

In all this, I am so ready and willing to take my finishing to the next level--beyond Danish oil/BORG Stain (laugh here)......it is probably best that I struggle with blotching maple.

Is there a limit to how concentrated I can make the TransFast? Some of the Med Walnut I made last week was 8x.....boiling water, and when I decanted into bottle, it appeared that not all the powder had dissolved. Supersaturated?

[John TenEyck]

You are right on your assessment of the problem; wherever the grain is interlocked and at odd angles there is a great tendency for blotching. However, sanding to a finer grit does help alleviate it somewhat. If your sandpaper is fresh it will cut the fibers and not burnish it. 325 or 400 grit will show less blotching than 180, but may still not eliminate the problem. Maple is one of the worst offenders for blotching and I almost always spray dye when using it.

You say you are considering spray lacquer but then said you have no spray equipment - I take it you were talking about rattle can lacquer.

I would suggest that if you are using 8X the recommended concentration of dye then you should be looking at a different product to get the color you want. Moreover, most people like to leave ambrosia maple showing the contrast rather than trying to mask it. But if you really want it that dark maybe you should just use Polyshades, which you mentioned as an idea earlier. Norm thought it was good stuff and I've read used it whenever he was concerned about blotching.

John

[David Ragan]

You are right on your assessment of the problem; wherever the grain is interlocked and at odd angles there is a great tendency for blotching. However, sanding to a finer grit does help alleviate it somewhat. If your sandpaper is fresh it will cut the fibers and not burnish it. 325 or 400 grit will show less blotching than 180, but may still not eliminate the problem. Maple is one of the worst offenders for blotching and I almost always spray dye when using it.

You say you are considering spray lacquer but then said you have no spray equipment - I take it you were talking about rattle can lacquer.

I would suggest that if you are using 8X the recommended concentration of dye then you should be looking at a different product to get the color you want. Moreover, most people like to leave ambrosia maple showing the contrast rather than trying to mask it. But if you really want it that dark maybe you should just use Polyshades, which you mentioned as an idea earlier. Norm thought it was good stuff and I've read used it whenever he was concerned about blotching.

John

So that's what RC lacquer stands for.

Yes, that what I have.

So, I will try switching out my sandpaper sooner (excellent idea).

I am taking this on as a learning experience.

The ambrosia didn;t cost me anything......Maybe I will start making some on this stuff out of pine:eek: (does it blotch?)

[John TenEyck]

Yep, pine can blotch, badly at times. Add to it, cherry, birch, poplar, and a whole host of woods, including the maple you already have experience with, that just love to turn your beautiful work into a finishing nightmare. Woodworkers have fought the battle of how to color these woods w/o blotching as long as they have been coloring wood. There are several approaches, but I like spraying dye or shellac toners the best as it pretty much guarantees success. Spraying is a game changer in a finisher's world. It is possible to apply a top end finish by hand. Some might argue that the best finish is applied by hand, as in French polishing. But for us mortals it's a lot easier to get a high end finish by spraying.

No spray equipment? I'd be thinking about finishing it naturally or going really dark with gel stain.

John

[Prashun Patel]

The darker the color (in general) the more it will exaggerate the blotch. The deeper the color, the more it will exaggerate the blotch.

You understand the reason for the blotch well. Those pores are like little straws. On your maple, if some are oriented perpendicular to the surface and others parallel to the surface, the ones with their drinky ends facing the surface are going to absorb more.

If you want to reduce blotch without resorting to spray equipment, you can always use a dark gel stain in the java/espresso family on top of your blotchy dye. The order would be: dye, then seal, then gel stain. If you're going for an espresso finish, this is super easy. I've done this on beech and maple with great success (to the extent that you can call staining ANYTHING espresso a success ;)). The gel stain will fix all your blotch sins.

[David Ragan]

OK.

I will get Gel stain in case I have to punt.

Is there some water, and some oil based? Does it make a difference?

this does not mean I'm giving up! Just expanding my options.

[David Ragan]

Got the GF Java Gel today.

Just went down and applied some to my test boards.

It is the shade that I want-that is good:p

However, do I apply huge amount, let it sit on the wood and soak in, and then wipe off after a few minutes?

Or, like paint it on and wipe right off? Seems like when I did this, it was streaky.

And, after it cures, what is best to topcoat for this oil based stain?

[David Ragan]

OK, OK.

Everyone will be thrilled when I take the plunge and finally use the GF Java Gel stain this wkd.

The test board turned out good:D

Certainly, after putting you all out like this, I will let you know (w pictures) how it all turns out.

[David Ragan]

I have successfully finished the table. It turned out good. The Gel Java from GF was great.

Shellac, 3/4# cut for sealer, and in between all layers of oil/water, etc, etc is the way to go.

This entire process has convinced me, that for me, spraying is going to be the way to go.

Am working on the idea for a breakdown spray booth for the garage, watched the You Tube video last night (thanks)

After the shellac sealer, and then the gel stain, there was minimal blothing.

However, Getting all those nooks and crannies, etc, etc is just too much hassle

All things considered, I am strongly considering selling a couple of my LN planes that I never use, and buying a nice HVLP set up......

Thanks everyone for you input, and patience:)

[Kent A Bathurst]

However, Getting all those nooks and crannies, etc, etc is just too much hassle..................

Glad it has worked out for you.......

BTW - you can always finish the parts before assembly - no nooks and crannies wo worry about. That's what I do.

[David Ragan]

Glad it has worked out for you.......

BTW - you can always finish the parts before assembly - no nooks and crannies wo worry about. That's what I do.

That just seems weird. But, hey, I'm a weird guy, so maybe it would be best that way.

JUst tape everything off, stain, finish, assemble, and yer done?

[Kent A Bathurst]

That just seems weird. But, hey, I'm a weird guy, so maybe it would be best that way.

JUst tape everything off, stain, finish, assemble, and yer done?

Bingo.

THen, after you have done this for a couple projects, you will realize you ain't that sloppy, and you can ignore the Blue Tape. No Foolin.

If a little finish goes on an M&T joint - nbd - still enough bare wood surface for solid adhesion. If you get a lot of varnish on a joint accidentally, Mr. Sharp Chisel puts paid to that in a couple seconds.

If you flood a tenon with water-borne dye - NBD - that won't interfere with adhesion at all.

Spray-on still the #1 choice. Someday I will go there.

Spraying gel stain? not very damn likely.............

[John TenEyck]

Pre-finishing makes all kinds of sense on stuff that fits together perfectly, doesn't get dinged up during glue up, and needs no "adjustments" afterwards. Somehow my projects rarely meet those criteria.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

J10 -

Karma, brudda. You have to Zen-out, and everything is perfectly aligned in the universe........


That, plus a good, solid rubber mallet.:p

[David Ragan]

Spraying gel stain? not very damn likely.............


Hey- did I say that? Did I say that?:eek: