using mdf for cabinets

[anthony wall]

although i was a cabinet maker i never actually used m d f now the wife wants a kitchen with painted doors so i have a couple of questions..is mdf a viable material to use for kitchen cabinet doors?is it viable for cabinet frames?what would be the best thing to seal the cut edges?any info on these points will be a great help in making up my mind weather to go this route..ps i am in thailand and most of the timber species here do not accept paint well .thanks for any help you can give on this subject

[glenn bradley]

I have MDF painted doors on the original hallway cabinet in my house. They look cheap but, are quite functional. I would not use MDF for frames. A seal coat of dewaxed shellac will allow primer and paint to be accepted on almost anything.

[Brian Peters]

MDF is great but should be used in great moderation. Build the cabinets out of a more reliable and stronger substrate such as birch cabinet grade plywood. I prefer pre-finished maple plywood but cost may prohibit it for you depending on your budget. For the doors it's best to make them out of solidwood and use MDF for the panels, whether they are flat panel or raised. If you're going to do raised panels you can use MDF, but it's best to use a double refined MDF such as Rangerboard, which machines and paints like real wood, it is very nice with a high solids primer. I have done cabinet doors from MDF before but it's best to edge band them with a veneer rather than filling the edges. MDF is not very durable so you will deal with damage as kitchen cabinet doors get the most abuse.

[Jim Matthews]

If it's reinforced at strike points, and has a soft close hinge - it may be adequate.

I wouldn't use it on moving parts myself.
For wainscoting, or other static panels - it's excellent.

Some of the most beautiful loudspeaker cabinets are veneer over MDF.

I wouldn't put MDF in contact with any floor that gets wet, either.

[Howard Pollack]

I have painted MDF cabinet doors in my kitchen. The paint job is very good with an industrial paint that is pretty tough. They look great, but the paint does chip a little bit and the mdf has chipped and needed to have the chip glued back in. I'd not do it again.

[Sam Murdoch]

MDF is too heavy and does not hold screws. There are fastening systems suitable for MDF but regular screws - no good.

Having said that, there are "light" MDFs TruPan or Ultralight (might be others) which are excellent for door panels.
If you make raised panels the hips will need special attention to finish properly. They porosity of the material interior
requires some fill with spackling or multi coats of primer, sanding between coats to look good, but it is manageable.

I don't know what the other comments above refer to in regards to the poor look of painted MDF. I have never had issues with it.
MDF panels properly finished (well primed and not too much paint thickness) can look as good as new car surfaces. That might be the problem - they can appear too perfect.

Anyway - YES to panels - absolutely NO to cabinet /door construction.

[anthony wall]

thanks for the useful input ,maybe i will try to talk the wife into solid wood doors( but dont hold out much hope as she can be pretty stubborn) so that they can be finished in a clear finish which would be my preference

[Robert Engel]

How about this: MDF is a toxic material, full of formaldehyde, urea and other bad chemicals.
It produces a dust so fine it will go everywhere in your shop and cover every surface the air will take it.
There is no dust collection that will get it all up and no filter that won't clog in 5 minutes.

Lets not even talk about what it will do to your lungs.

Tell her in order to use it you'll be risking your health - no lie.

If you do decide to use it, make sure you've got a full face respirator, goggles and some damn good exhaust fans in your shop.

If your shop is your garage, its a no brainer - DON'T USE IT if the stuff ever gets in your a/c system it will be everywhere in your house.

Vote YES to ban MDF :eek:.

[Art Mann]

A couple of years ago, I replaced all the cabinet doors in a kitchen/serving area that was part of a large church. The original doors were constructed of premium cabinet grade veneered MDF. All the ones near the sink were swelled and partially dissolved just by being splashed with water. Some of the door hinges were loose and unrepairable because the screws just wouldn't hold any more. Although the kitchen was used hard, I believe it would not have required all that work if they had used cabinet grade plywood.

On the other hand, I will say that the panels I salvaged from the project made excellent material for construction of jigs and fixtures. It was quality but it just wasn't appropriate for this high use application. If you decide to use MDF for your project, I would definitely buy the premium material from a cabinet shop supplier rather than the cheap and low quality stuff you can get at the big box home centers.

[Brian Peters]

How about this: MDF is a toxic material, full of formaldehyde, urea and other bad chemicals.
It produces a dust so fine it will go everywhere in your shop and cover every surface the air will take it.
There is no dust collection that will get it all up and no filter that won't clog in 5 minutes.

Lets not even talk about what it will do to your lungs.

Tell her in order to use it you'll be risking your health - no lie.

If you do decide to use it, make sure you've got a full face respirator, goggles and some damn good exhaust fans in your shop.

If your shop is your garage, its a no brainer - DON'T USE IT if the stuff ever gets in your a/c system it will be everywhere in your house.

Vote YES to ban MDF :eek:.

Robert I think your reply is a bit over the top. If he is concerned about health risks he can always purchase formaldehyde free MDF. One small project is not going to subject him to long term health risks because his exposure just isn't enough. Not to mention a lot of MDF and plywood from reputable dealers have much lower concentrations of formaldehyde than chinese/import counterparts.

[Art Mann]

Robert I think your reply is a bit over the top. If he is concerned about health risks he can always purchase formaldehyde free MDF. One small project is not going to subject him to long term health risks because his exposure just isn't enough. Not to mention a lot of MDF and plywood from reputable dealers have much lower concentrations of formaldehyde than chinese/import counterparts.

There must be hundreds of MDF manufacturers. I was just wondering how Robert was able to verify the chemistry used to manufacture all of them.

[Bob Grier]

Your selection of material might depend on how long you intend the doors to last or how long you intend to enjoy them. I recently purchased a house constructed in 1989 (25 years old) with mdf cabinets including doors covered with melamine. The cabinets are in kitchen, laundry and both bathrooms. The house has been well taken care of. Most but not all doors have slight to considerable bend in them. By that I mean that where 2 hinges were used, the portion of the door between the hinges is bowed in toward the cabinet and the top and bottom of the doors is pushed out from the cabinet relative to the area between the hinges. Most all shelves are mdf and sag. They have lasted a long time and look good but don't fit well. All edges and faces are covered with the laminate.

I replaced most of the hollow core doors with mdf doors and I replaced most of the trim with mdf trim. I have found the painted mdf doors and mdf trim is easy to dent or chip compared to wood doors and trim. This is the first house of 6 houses I have lived in in the past 50 years that has mdf cabinets, trim or doors. I may not have used mdf for doors and trim if I had past experience with it.

[mreza Salav]

If you want paint grade doors, why not use some inexpensive solid wood such as pine? it is very light too.
MDF is not good for boxes for reasons given above. It is too heavy for doors IMO especially bigger upper doors.
You can get the same look using better material. You would save a bundle doing thing yourself, so it's worth using better material.

[Michelle Rich]

How about this: MDF is a toxic material, full of formaldehyde, urea and other bad chemicals.
It produces a dust so fine it will go everywhere in your shop and cover every surface the air will take it.
There is no dust collection that will get it all up and no filter that won't clog in 5 minutes.

Lets not even talk about what it will do to your lungs.

Tell her in order to use it you'll be risking your health - no lie.

If you do decide to use it, make sure you've got a full face respirator, goggles and some damn good exhaust fans in your shop.

If your shop is your garage, its a no brainer - DON'T USE IT if the stuff ever gets in your a/c system it will be everywhere in your house.

Vote YES to ban MDF :eek:.

I'm glad someone brought up the toxicity of this stuff, and the billowing dust...use good quality plywood instead.

[Peter Quinn]

MDF is a pretty common material for low end and slab door construction these days. They have raised panel doors that are either routed post forming or pressed whole into doors to look like 5 piece frame and panel doors. They have the tell tale rounded corners that say to my eye "not real". For a painted slab door what are the options? It has a few issues. It disintegrates when wet. Thats a pretty serious down side in a kitchen. And it basically can barely support its own weight over any span, so its not a great choice for face frames etc. I don't like the way the edges crumble, to me thats the begging of the end for most MDf products.....well painted it stays dry, but an edge gets damaged, that exposes the core, lets in water, starts to bugle and fail. Most commercial MDF doors you see are overlay with very rounded edges meant too soften the impact of any blows the doors may take, they don't tolerated eased square edges very well. You will of course hear about somebody MDF doors that have lasted 20 years and are in great shape.....they must tread very lightly.

I don't know the Thai market at all, I would do a little more local investigation into finding a paint grade species, I know the Chinese have a few "white wood" species that paint well and may get exported to Thailand. When I've been forced to make MDF doors they were always slabs, no reason to make a 5 piece looking door with it here, and for the slabs we edge band the doors in a thin solid wood, not heat tape but at least 1/16" of solid material so that all contact edges are more durable, this seems to give the doors more life. For face frames and carcusses.....absolutely not using MDf here. I can't imagine it lasting in a humid climate for very long at all.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree with Peter on all counts but........

I have MDF sign letters on a friends building that have been there for 30 years now and still look good. This is outside. They were painted with West System, then the color coat so I would say it is more of a tribute to West than MDF, but it can be done and work well. Same thing with screw holes, predrill and inject West and it will hold a screw as good as anything.

But me, I try never to touch the stuff, Hate It!

Larry

[Jim Dwight]

The kitchen in the house we sold last year had site built cabinets with painted slab MDF doors. They were shaped to look like raised panels, kind of, but didn't because of the rounded corners. They look cheap to me but we were trying to control budget and my late wife said they were fine. We lived in that house for 15 years and the doors did not warp or otherwise give us problems. There were a few chips but mostly the paint held up very well. They were factory finished. They were hinged with "European" cup hinges. They mostly depend on the large cup for strength so the screws are relatively low stress. No problem with the hinges.

I built a replacement island for that house of cherry with flat panels that were cherry veneer mdf. I finished it thoroughly inside and out with Resisthane, a water based lacquer and it also was not a problem. Drawers had solid cherry fronts and the frame of the island was solid cherry. Drawers were 1/2 Baltic birch plywood.

I don't think mdf should be used for anything structural. Fasteners should be carefully chosen. I wouldn't use it for the structure of a cabinet. But sacrificial tops of benches, sure. Center core of an unstressed panel in a door, sure. But not structural shelves or cabinets. It's weak, it won't take normal fasteners well and it sags badly when loaded. Just not good for structure.

It is also hard to finish. I tried it for raised panels once and it soaked up finish something terrible. Some use a coat of drywall mud first. If you don't cut into it you can finish it better but the edges or anywhere you cut will be extremely thirsty.

[Jeff Ramsey]

although i was a cabinet maker i never actually used m d f now the wife wants a kitchen with painted doors so i have a couple of questions..is mdf a viable material to use for kitchen cabinet doors?is it viable for cabinet frames?what would be the best thing to seal the cut edges?any info on these points will be a great help in making up my mind weather to go this route..ps i am in thailand and most of the timber species here do not accept paint well .thanks for any help you can give on this subject

I've used it for many raised panels in rooms, with poplar for the framing. It's fine for that application, with paint. The cut bevels are a bit rough at times, can be soft and MDF is really messy to mill (this is the part of using MDF for raised panels that I dislike). I don't think I'd use it for a kitchen application, however. That seems like too his a use for MDF, and MDF is heavy. Maybe try just one in your kitchen and use it for a few months (or even a complete season cycle), and see what you think?

[Evan Patton]

When we had our kitchen redone last year the contractor and cabinet company strongly recommended MDF vs. plywood. I was skeptical, as I also had experience with swelling MDF, but they showed me samples they soaked in water of 4 types of MDF and a couple types of plywood, and the MDF that they use for cabinets had the least swelling/degradation of all the samples. It convinced me, but I've still got my fingers crossed. Regardless all MDF is not the same--do your research and get some samples and do your own testing before committing to a large project.

[Kevin Jenness]

We have gone to using Medex for painted slab doors, raised panels and the like. One, it is water-resistant, and two, cut or molded edges do not require the extensive priming of standard mdf. Neither one holds screws well, so soaking screw holes with epoxy or using barbed or expanding dowels on hinges is good practice. Ultralite has its place but is even weaker than standard and has worse edge priming problems. For painted cabinets we have gone to a product called "Plumaply", a veneer core panel with a high density fiberboard skin (like "classic core"), with face frames or soild edging. It paints well and is much lighter, stronger and holds screws better than mdf. Not yet convinced, as with most veneer core products, that it will stay flat enough to use for doors. It is calibrated for consistent thickness, and is available veneered and prefinished veneer as well as bare stock.

[Mark Wooden]

Around here, both regular and lightweight MDF is used regularly for paint grade door panels, wall panels in solid stock frames (sometimes the whole frame and panel will be MDF) ,and as a substrate for veneers. When using it for raised panels, brushing the cut edges with a glue size band letting it dry before sanding is an effective way to get a smooth paint finish. Any treatment you give the panels should be done before assembly. I like to shoot them with a primer tinted to the final finish color and then assemble. When the frame shrinks and moves in the winter, it helps to have the right color in the joints.

[Art Mann]

Veneered MDF is used extensively in low end factory cabinetry available at places like Home Depot.

[Kevin Jenness]

" Veneered MDF is used extensively in low end factory cabinetry available at places like Home Depot."

Veneered mdf is also used in the most elaborate veneered pieces by serious craftsmen, because it is provides a smooth substrate that tends to start out and remain flat without telegraphing, and glues well. The various types of mdf need to be selected for their suitability to the project at hand. The idea that mdf has no place in "high end" woodworking is mistaken.

[anthony wall]

thanks everyone ,it definitely looks like mdf is now a none starter so i need to look at alternatives by the way it is only the face frames and doors that i will be building as all the "cabinets"will be built in lightweight insulated blocks and then rendered which is the thai way to prevent termites reducing the cabinets to dust ,it wont be a big loss of space as the blocks are only 2-25 inches thick. the first kitchen i built here was in 18mm thick ply and was completely destroyed by termites within 3 years

[Bob Timms]

I've made a number of faux raised panel mdf cab doors i'm replacing now with the real thing. They were all routed, sealed. primed and well painted. The doors are 12 years old and have been actually sitting outside in the weather (Atlanta metro) for at least 6 months and I am thinking about just rinsing some off and using them for other things. These doors never had a problem with hinges/screws. A good protective finish can - in this case latex can protect mdf well against the weather. Mdf sucks to work with re routering and cutting and sealing - but machines great. I am using all mdf in all of the new door panels I'm making and have no plans to change. In fact I am planing to actually change a couple of the first panels I made out of poplar just to get the flatness.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Friends don't let friends use MDF..... ;).

[Tom Ewell]

Around here, Poplar is popular (:p) for paint grade and the occasional stain project.

Working the primer to smooth before final coats yields a very smooth finish.

In fact working the primer (and fillers) on most any substrate can get pretty good results, just a little more work.

[Art Mann]

" Veneered MDF is used extensively in low end factory cabinetry available at places like Home Depot."

Veneered mdf is also used in the most elaborate veneered pieces by serious craftsmen, because it is provides a smooth substrate that tends to start out and remain flat without telegraphing, and glues well. The various types of mdf need to be selected for their suitability to the project at hand. The idea that mdf has no place in "high end" woodworking is mistaken.

I mention "low grade" MDF cabinets because I have been shopping for rental property lately and one of the most common things I see that requires fixing is MDF kitchen cabinets that have partially dissolved. That material isn't used in high end anything. That is why I already posted that if the OP wants to use MDF, he needs to buy it from a better source than HD.

[Robert Engel]

There must be hundreds of MDF manufacturers. I was just wondering how Robert was able to verify the chemistry used to manufacture all of them.I did some research on how its made. I doubt the process is much diff from manufacture to manufacturer.

Brian - its not just the formaldehyde, its the fine particulates that necessitate a respirator.

No, one small project "may" not harm him, but who knows what the effects will be on an individual person?

I'm sure there are no shortage of people who worked with MDF that can tell you what's happened to their lungs.

[Jeff Duncan]

A lot of good information here….though a lot of bad information as well unfortunately. First off if we're talking about toxicity….plywood is also made of formaldehyde, so your not avoiding it there. If your using any man made sheet material your dealing with chemicals, therefore it's a moot point in general. When you cut plywood you'll also get fine dust, just not quite as much. Protect you lungs when cutting sheet goods just as you would cutting any of the many hardwoods whose dust is toxic.

In terms of using fasteners you want to use those designed for use in mdf. If your using basic wood screws and trying to "get by" your not going to fare all that well. If on the other hand you make a slab door and use press in style hinges you'll be just fine.

In terms of longevity it comes down to how it's handled and maintained. Sure if your looking at budget cabinetry that's generally made as cheaply as possible, your going to see stuff that falls apart. Doesn't matter what the material is. I grew up in a home with cabinets made out of 1/2" melamine, (another evil material:o), those cabinets are 40 years old and going strong. No warped doors at all, only problem after 40+ years of daily use is one drawer front has come off and needs to be re-attached.

The truth of the matter is if you want a flat slab door mdf is it. Nothing else will be as flat to begin with and stay flat over time. It takes paint very well, (once you learn how to paint it), and also veneers well. Now the one issue you may, or may not, have is your location, not sure what kind of material selection you have at hand? When I do slab fronts and doors I use a moisture resistant mdf panel. There are several brands to choose from, on this side of the world anyway;) I band all the edges with either wood or paper tape depending on the finish and then spray.

For 5 piece doors I use soft maple with mdf panels. Poplar is fine for trim, but for doors and face frames it's way too soft IMHO. Though I'm not sure if either of those is readily available anyway?

hope this helps clear up some of the confusion about mdf for you!

good luck,
JeffD

[Curt Harms]

the first kitchen i built here was in 18mm thick ply and was completely destroyed by termites within 3 years

That bit of info might change advice. A very quick search yielded this:

Termites will not eat chipboard, MDF, laminates or other wood mixed with glue. They may travel over these materials to get to the “good stuff” like your timber infrastructure and built-in framework.
https://termitetrap.com.au/termites/can-termites-eat-through-concrete


If the above is true, perhaps slab doors with a faux raised panel treatment would be on the table. Or a traditional style door with the rails and stiles made from a termite resistant wood. Is there such a thing?