Lee Valley's answer to the new LN honing jig

[Howard Skillington]

Having gotten my first look at the new Lie Nielsen honing guide here on the Creek last week, it was interesting to note the almost simultaneous release by Lee Valley of some new accessories for their Mark II honing guide.

Unlike some, who consider the LV to require too much fiddling, I think it’s a fine system. Once you’re used to the routine, it only takes a few seconds to slip on the angle registration jig and assure that both honing angle and skew are dead-on. But, for want of side clamping, blades narrower than about a half inch are pretty iffy - the aluminum plate that clamps over your blade doesn’t provide that much friction to combat slippage. And that backer isn’t designed to accommodate a thick blade like a mortise chisel.

So when I saw LV had developed a new narrow-blade guide that clamps from the side, I thought they must have solved both problems. Nope.

The Narrow-blade Head doesn’t allow for sharpening a square-edged blade over 11/32” thick. And, it costs almost fifty dollars, after you’ve already spent a minimum of $68.50 for the Mark II honing guide.

In my case, I’ve paid their asking price for the Honing Guide, plus the Camber Roller Assembly and the Small Blade Holder, and the system still can’t handle a skew chisel or a narrow blade without more costly accessories.

As for the nice Narex mortise chisels I just bought from LV a couple of weeks ago: their customer service guy suggests that I “may find it easier to take the sharpening stone to the chisel” and sharpen them freehand.

If I were confident about sharpening freehand, I would never have bought into Lee Valley’s system in the first place.

[J. Greg Jones]

The narrow-blade head will work with your Narex mortise chisels, at least it does with mine. Here is a link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOUTAyM0j4Q&spfreload=10) to a video where I briefly show the jig in use, and I clamp a 1/2" Narex mortise chisel in the jig at the 6:00 minute mark.

[Howard Skillington]

Many thanks, Greg, for your clear and thoughtful video. I was puzzled by LV's disclaimer in their instructions for the Narrow-blade head that it could not be used with square edge chisels over 11/32" thick, because the lateral jaws look like they ought to do the job. You have certainly demonstrated to my satisfaction that they will.

[Gary Herrmann]

Quality costs

[Mike Tekin]

Many thanks, Greg, for your clear and thoughtful video. I was puzzled by LV's disclaimer in their instructions for the Narrow-blade head that it could not be used with square edge chisels over 11/32" thick, because the lateral jaws look like they ought to do the job. You have certainly demonstrated to my satisfaction that they will.

I agree with Gary because my Narex chisels are less than 11/32 thick and will work with this new atrachment - I think you may be thinking that the 11/32 refers to the width but LV is refering thickness as the height of the chisel.

Another point regarding cost is that the LV jig is $68 for the basic setup...there are several indications that the Lie Nielsen jig's basic setup will start at a minimum of $100 And each attachment for skew and mosrtise chisels will cost well over $20...

Quality does cost and at least LV doesnt go around showing off things and still dont have a product on the market over two years later...I am still puzzled by this

[Howard Skillington]

Thanks, Mike, but I know the difference between the width and the thickness of my chisels.

I was basing my concerns upon the printed specifications LV posted on their website.

Perhaps your Narex chisels are less than 11/32" thick. My Narex Mortise chisels are fully 1/2" thick (and, of course, of varying widths) tapering to 3/8" at the beginning of the bevel.
At the line at which they are grasped by the honing guide, they are well over 3/8" thick.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Howard, have you actually tried using your very thick mortising chisel in the Narrow-Blade Honing Guide? Does it not graps firmly enough or what?

[Patrick Harper]

I'm able to hone my Ray Iles mortise chisels using the Kell guide. They're a little awkward, but it works very well.

[Howard Skillington]

Hilton: have you actually read this sequence of posts?

The reason Greg's video is so helpful is that it demonstrates that the Narrow-blade head will do something that LV says it can't be used for.

If I could try out LV tools at my local Ace Hardware store then I would not need to call upon the good folks here at the Creek for information of this sort.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Hilton: have you actually read this sequence of posts?

Nah, why would I do that? :cool:



The reason Greg's video is so helpful is that it demonstrates that the Narrow-blade head will do something that LV says it can't be used for.
I suspect that Lee Valley's stated dimensions are there to guarantee a proper and secure grip on the chisel/narrow blade, rather than a definitive cutoff.


If I could try out LV tools at my local Ace Hardware store then I would not need to call upon the good folks here at the Creek for information of this sort.
Sorry, I thought you had already bought the narrow blade carrier and were now complaining as opposed to complaining in advance.

Tongue in cheek of course :)

[J. Greg Jones]

The minimum/maximum dimensions given by Lee Valley are, I believe, conservative. I wasn't provided in advance what the recommended dimensions were to be, or I might have discussed that in more detail in the video. The other dimension that came up on another forum was the minimum width of 1/8". The jaws will pinch tight on a piece of paper, so I don't know why the limitation of 1/8". Unlike the situation with the Narex mortise chisel height, I did not have a chisel narrower that 1/8" to test in the jig.

Another point that I will mention is that in use, the narrow-blade head feels like it came first, and then later on the 'standard' head was developed to work with the roller assembly. In other words, using the Mk.II with chisels in the narrow-head just feels more natural and less fussy than the honing plane blades with the standard head. The standard head is about as fussy as I am willing to put up with, and had the narrow-blade head added more complications then I probably would not use it. As is, I have found it to work remarkably well.

[Howard Skillington]

Your conclusions make sense to me, Greg. Since the narrow head does a more secure job of holding chisels, including narrow and thick ones, and the original Mk II head is the only LV option for holding wide plane blades, I expect I'll come to regard the new one as the chisel honer and the older one as the plane blade honer.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm going to buy it and test it on one of my 1/16th chisels.

[Mike Brady]

at least LV doesnt go around showing off things and still don't have a product on the market over two years later...I am still puzzled by this

The LN version was being used in sharpening demos at Handworks. The plow plane was on display also. When asked about availability the answer was "When they are ready". Meanwhile Lee Valley was booking orders on theirs. Puzzling?....definitely.

[Frank Martin]

The LN version was being used in sharpening demos at Handworks. The plow plane was on display also. When asked about availability the answer was "When they are ready". Meanwhile Lee Valley was booking orders on theirs. Puzzling?....definitely.

For the record I have tools from both, but far more from Lee Valley. I think the delays on LNs side is a great indication of how these two companies are very different. Lee Valley is an innovative company and invests in R&D with ability to churn out new products at a faster rate. LN on the other hand is not an innovation focused company with likely very little investment in R&D resulting in poor track record in ability to come up with new products. While I appreciate the perception of dedication to quality being implied in a statement that says "we will release it when it is ready", I find it pretty lame as an explation for products they have been showing off for years.

[Mike Brady]

I briefly tried my LV narrow blade head on a Lie-Nielsen mortise chisel; one of the thicker (taller)(1/2" size) ones. Indeed, the clamping jaws do not hold it securely. I think this is because the two jaws are canted or toed-in slightly. The jaws have to exceed the thickness of the chisel so that they can bear on the top corners of the chisel blade. That critical height can't exceed 11/32" or the jaws are just contacting the sides(arrises?) of the chisel, and that contact area is no way going to hold the thick chisel securely during honing. You may have to see this to understand what I am getting at, but no, the narrow blade attachment will only hold the smaller sizes of mortise chisels, if any.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........LN.... is not an innovation focused company....likely very little investment in R&D....poor track record in ability to come up with new products....pretty lame as an explanation for products they have been showing off for years.


A bit harsh, Frank, don't you think?

They have taken the all-time classic designs and elevated them to exceptional levels of quality and performance, well beyond the originals. So, of course, their problem is a lack of innovation. :confused: That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Naguchi.

They have a different business model than LV - no question. Your point is that their approach is therefore invalid by definition, do I read that correctly?

So - the plow plane is taking longer than their dedicated customer base would like. Mayhaps they are trying to keep those people up to date on what they are doing, as a courtesy. The harm in doing that is what, exactly?

Why are you looking to pick a fight? Your way or out? A tad bit disappointing.

For the Record: I own multiple products from both companies. I admire them both.

EDIT: Brian caught my wild pitch - corrected accordingly. Thnx.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Namaguchi.

Isamu Noguchi?

[Mike Brady]

Kent, Frank is expressing (harshly, yes) the frustration of many Lie-Nielsen customers who have been told repeatedly over the last two years that new products "will be ready at the end of the month". It is an uncharacteristic stumble. No doubt they would do things differently if given another chance and not tease products that remain unavailable two years hence.

What makes me wonder is how the multitude of Lie-Nielsen products ever got conceived and made in less than three decades; yet these go unmade for more than two years? I can only imagine how vexing it must be for the maker.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I acknowledge the validity of your points, Mike.

I simply do not get it. We can agree to put that down as my problem, not yours.

I find it interesting how often, and how vociferously, I read comments by people about the LN plow plane. Nearly 500 years ago, Copernicus proved that the universe does not revolve around a plow plane - my Polish is very spotty, so I may have misread that last bit.....:D

I have been able to muddle thru without a plow plane for lo these many years. I betcha I can stretch that out a bit.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm much more interested in HNT Gordon's moving fillister plane.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm much more interested in HNT Gordon's moving fillister plane.

Yeah......you got me hooked with one of your previous posts, especially where he said they were doing the moving fillister to learn enough to make a plow............

[Frank Martin]

A bit harsh, Frank, don't you think?

They have taken the all-time classic designs and elevated them to exceptional levels of quality and performance, well beyond the originals. So, of course, their problem is a lack of innovation. :confused: That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Naguchi.

They have a different business model than LV - no question. Your point is that their approach is therefore invalid by definition, do I read that correctly?

So - the plow plane is taking longer than their dedicated customer base would like. Mayhaps they are trying to keep those people up to date on what they are doing, as a courtesy. The harm in doing that is what, exactly?

Why are you looking to pick a fight? Your way or out? A tad bit disappointing.

For the Record: I own multiple products from both companies. I admire them both.

EDIT: Brian caught my wild pitch - corrected accordingly. Thnx.

Actually, I never said their approach is invalid and not at all trying to pick a fight. Clearly their approach is as they are selling a lot of planes. I also own some of them. Specifically, I prefer their block planes over the Veritas versions, of course that changed with the shiny NX plane. Still prefer the LN 102 over the Veritas Apron plane. Same for the LN chisel plane. I am very glad that we have both companies. Different does not mean bad.

I am not even looking forward to the two LN products that were the subject of the original post, as I don't have a need for them at this point.

So, all of this out of the way, what I intended to say is that looking at both companies track record, LN does not appear to have as much R&D focus as Lee Valley. Also, while I agree that LN manufactures the Stanley models with better materials and much closer tolerances, they don't come up with a new design. So, that is the reason I personally don't consider LN a very innovative company. Of course these are my opinions and does not mean that everyone has to agree.

I also find this years of showing of products that are still not in the market pretty amusing. Not smart, lame and amusing.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Frank: I expressed similar concerns to a LN rep at the last Hand Tool Event I attended. The HTEs themselves are a pretty darn nice thing LN provides for us. Costs a pretty penny, no doubt, and the format is superb IMO. Anyway, his answer(s) made sense - TLN is being cautious moving forward - too big too fast can equal disaster. TLN REFUSES to outsource any part of any product outside the USA. He wants the product to be bulletproof before production is rolled out.

LN is a fair bit different, but they have storefronts in many locales. Not sure about the sourcing of parts and pieces, but I believe Veritas is virtually, if not all, Canadian made.

Both LN and LV have a fair amount of my money, both excel at Customer Service, and both have excellent products. How they do business is the call of the person calling the shots. We can complain if it doesn't suit us, ( I don't complain, perhaps question at times ) but personally, I have nothing but respect for TLN and Rob Lee. Keep doing what you are doing gentlemen.

[Peter Pedisich]

Lee Valley, maker of Veritas, is a larger company with greater resources than LN. This explains a lot about product development.
Like most folks here I own tools from both companies, and have a great deal of respect for both.
I have worked for manufacturers for 28 years, and the supplier base from raw materials to precision job shops has dwindled and made it much more difficult to bring a product to market in relatively modest item quantity.

[Howard Skillington]

Your report is the one I have been waiting for, Mike. I suspected the issue might be the inability of LV's canted jaws to prevent a thicker chisel from riding up as pressure is applied toward the stone. If that is indeed the case, then I am back to my earlier conclusion that LV has botched this product.
Yet - Greg seemed satisfied in his video with its grip on the same Narex mortise chisels I have. LV's customer rep has encouraged me to try the Narrow-blade head and return it if it doesn't work for me. I guess I'll try it myself, and let LV bear the cost of taking it back if it can't do the job.
I appreciate your giving me fair warning.

[J. Greg Jones]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Narex mortise chisels have slightly tapered sides, while the Lie-Nielsen mortise chisels have parallel sides. All other things being equal, I expect the narrow-blade head will clamp better on chisels with tapered sides than they will on chisels with flat, parallel sides.

[John Glover]

I'm going to buy it and test it on one of my 1/16th chisels.

It doesn't quite clamp my Ray Isles 1/16" chisel: although it will clamp a piece of paper, the clamping point is above the height of my 1/16" chisel.

John

[Mike Brady]

What I can glean from talking to Lie-Nielsen staff is that the honing guide is difficult to manufacture due to the interchangeability of the jaws. Each of the jaw sets must mate perfectly with the "base" piece that contains the roller wheel and adjustment screw. The jaws contain alignment pins and captured screws that have female counterparts in the base. Because of this each jaw must fit all of the bases that they manufacture (and visa versa) there is no tolerance for error.

In my experience with the Lee Valley guide, including the new narrow blade head, the system is, as someone here said, "fiddley". It does the job, though. What it can't do, by design, is address every tool's sharpening requirements the way the Lie-Nielsen set can. What we have seen at Hand Tool Events are prototypes, not production. I assume that the one Chris Schwarz has was also a pre-production unit made for beta testing.

Getting back to the LV jig, I have decided that the 2 degree microbevel achieved by turning the knob on the roller wheel is not sufficient; so I actually increase the the bevel by 5 degrees to get a microbevel. That, of course makes the process even fiddlier, since I have to readjust the work piece to do that. That is required only if I am establishing a new primary bevel; which isn't very often.

One little glitch I found with the the new narrow blade head is that a bench chisel can slip loose from the jaws. A couple of times the whole rig fell on its nose because of this. Make sure the chisel is seated well before you go to the sharpening media. You also can't tighten the projection stop on the degree scale until the chisel is snugged in the clamping jaws.

[Howard Skillington]

Sounds reasonable to me, Greg. Also, if the head's holding power is limited, it's a good reminder not to press down too hard on my diamond stones as I hone.
At this point I think I just need to give it a try and see if it works for me. But I do think it's reasonable of us to expect LV's system to handle the Narex mortise chisels.

[Mike Brady]

Just want to add to the thread that as I use the new LV narrow blade honing guide, I found that it does not accommodate the narrowest of the small plow plane cutters because they do not have parallel sides. Even the wider ones did not seem to lock in very securely. What I am beginning to conclude is that this attachment is most useful for bench chisels that have beveled edges. Firmer chisels, mortise chisels , and cutters with thick, vertical sides not so much. For the small plow cutters I went back to using the Kell jig. It is also important that what ever you are clamping in the jig rest evenly on the two rails upon which the clamping jaws travel. You may have to be in really good light to check this. If not seated properly, the blade-to-be-honed can shift unexpectedly when finger pressure is applied during sharpening.