Bandsaw: tracking and drift and the snodgrass method

[Adrian Mariano]

I saw this post http://www.craftsy.com/blog/2015/05/resaw-bandsaw/ wherein the author suggests that bandsaw drift is caused by the blade not being centered on the wheel when you have a crowned wheel. He says you can fix drift by tweaking the tracking. But then I found an article and video where Snodgrass says to align the bottom of the gullets with the center of the wheel.

On my saw (PM1500) I have the blade tracking in the center of the top wheel. Blade is a 3/8" carbide tooth Trimaster. It tracked like this out of the box. But drift is about 1/2" and it's hard to turn the table enough to adjust for it. (I want to keep the fence parallel to the mitre gauge.) So I'm interested in a blade adjustment that would enable me to reduce or eliminate drift. But it seems like there's no consensus about this approach.

Many people, including the author of the post above, suggest that centering the blade on the top wheel will eliminate drift. But my blade is centered and I still have drift. In reading past discussions is seems like lots of people are skeptical of the Snodgrass approach, and of course manufacturers aren't recommending this approach.

Does anybody have any advice on how to reduce drift by adjusting the saw?

[Myk Rian]

In reading past discussions is seems like lots of people are skeptical of the Snodgrass approach,
People like me.
I center the blade on the top wheel and "flutter" tension.
You just might have a bad blade.

[Phil Thien]

Adjust the tracking of the blade on the top wheel, until you eliminate the problem.

[Rod Sheridan]

If the blade is damaged or dull it will not track properly when cutting.

The miter slot in the table has to be parallel to the blade path, that only has to be adjusted once.

Now adjust your rip fence so it's parallel to the miter slot. This is a once only adjustment.

Now you adjust the tracking so the blade is centered on the top wheel. Make a test cut with the rip fence, check that the blade is centered in the kerf, parallel to the direction of travel. If not make a miniscule tracking adjustment to correct that and recheck with another test cut.

Regards, Rod.

[Jeffrey Martel]

I use the Snodgrass approach quite successfully on my 14" grizzly saw. Can't say about the other one since the Snodgrass works for me. As was said, your blade may be dull.

[Art Mann]

Myk could very well be right about a bad blade. In that case, no amount of adjustment will make it right. On the other hand, I have always been able to adjust the tracking of my band saws as Phil suggests so that the blade cuts parallel to the miter slot and no fence compensation is necessary. I have done this successfully so many times that Mr. Snodgrass sounds downright silly to me on this point. I think drift angle is normally adjusted out by varying the angle of the rip fence because it is the easiest, but not necessarily the best, way to do it.

[Bob Wingard]

I've used Alex's method for several years now ... has worked great on my old DELTA 14"

[glenn bradley]

Adjust the tracking of the blade on the top wheel, until you eliminate the problem.

+1 on this.

313986313987313988

Exaggerated for clarity the same can apply for non-crowned tires if the tooth set is enough to foul the travel path. I set my saw to saw straight and change blades with impunity. Its a tool, it should do the work :D.

[David Ragan]

No doubt all the above factors enter into the equation-"But"

I get the very best results with the resulting surfaces when adjust the angle/parallelism of my fence slightly.

I do this by taking a piece of scrap, setting everything up just as it is about to be used, mainly the tension and height of blade guard.

Take a piece of scrap that is a least a inch thick, saw 4-6" into it.

Stop the saw. Leave the blade in the piece of wood; don't touch anything.

go round to the back side with the light just right, and see if the blade is actually exactly parallel in the kerf of the cut.

Adjust the fence-probably 1-4mm.

Saw another kerf.

This method has afforded me great results. It is a little tedious, but worth it.

[Jim Matthews]

If not make a miniscule tracking adjustment to correct that and recheck with another test cut.

Regards, Rod.

+1 on this. The method shown in the video gets VERY close. It's an alignment of many factors, some tweaking is to be expected.

[Roger Pozzi]

I use the Snodgrass approach quite successfully on my 14" grizzly saw. Can't say about the other one since the Snodgrass works for me. As was said, your blade may be dull.

Plus 1 !!!
I found the Snodgrass video while still shopping for my bandsaw. When I was setting up my saw straight out of the box, I followed his instructions to the letter. I even went as far as marking the center of the top wheel since the only way to look at it was from an angle. It works for me and I've never looked back at the time I spent setting it up.
My thought is, Alex Snodgrass makes a living with bandsaws so, why not give him a little trust. ;)

[Adrian Mariano]

+1 on this.

313986313987313988

Exaggerated for clarity the same can apply for non-crowned tires if the tooth set is enough to foul the travel path. I set my saw to saw straight and change blades with impunity. Its a tool, it should do the work :D.

Seems plausible to me. But unfortunately doesn't seem to match the reality of how my saw cuts. Blade is centered but I have 1/2" of drift.

[Adrian Mariano]

If the blade is damaged or dull it will not track properly when cutting.

The miter slot in the table has to be parallel to the blade path, that only has to be adjusted once.

Now adjust your rip fence so it's parallel to the miter slot. This is a once only adjustment.

Now you adjust the tracking so the blade is centered on the top wheel. Make a test cut with the rip fence, check that the blade is centered in the kerf, parallel to the direction of travel. If not make a miniscule tracking adjustment to correct that and recheck with another test cut.

Regards, Rod.

My blade is a new carbide tipped 3/8" blade. It cuts well. It's not dull.

What do you mean about adjusting the miter slot parallel to the "blade path"? I have attempted to adjust the miter slot to be parallel to the cut line. This is a tricky adjustment. I did recently have the inspiration to use my laser line level to make this easier. I lay down a line parallel to the cut path and it gives me something to reference as I turn the table. However, I had trouble turning my table 1/2". I just realized I may have made an adjustment I shouldn't have, that fowled up something else. And after all this, the blade is off center in the insert, which is kind of weird. So I'm looking for another way.

Do you think checking the blade position in the kerf is more reliable than making a long freehand test cut along a line and observing the angle of the workpiece? It seems like the blade-in-the-kerf method would be easier with larger blades, but when I tried it with my 3/8" blade I didn't feel like it was very clear. So I went back to the other approach of cutting a 2' workpiece half way along a marked line freehand.

I had been imagining that the necessary adjustment was big. (Certainly the Snodgrass adjustment is big!) Are you saying that I should be able to eliminate the 1/2" of drift by making tiny adjustments? Is there a system to this? Like if the cut line is veering to the left which direction would I adjust the tracking?

[Bill Huber]

My blade is a new carbide tipped 3/8" blade. It cuts well. It's not dull.

What do you mean about adjusting the miter slot parallel to the "blade path"? I have attempted to adjust the miter slot to be parallel to the cut line. This is a tricky adjustment. I did recently have the inspiration to use my laser line level to make this easier. I lay down a line parallel to the cut path and it gives me something to reference as I turn the table. However, I had trouble turning my table 1/2". I just realized I may have made an adjustment I shouldn't have, that fowled up something else. And after all this, the blade is off center in the insert, which is kind of weird. So I'm looking for another way.

Do you think checking the blade position in the kerf is more reliable than making a long freehand test cut along a line and observing the angle of the workpiece? It seems like the blade-in-the-kerf method would be easier with larger blades, but when I tried it with my 3/8" blade I didn't feel like it was very clear. So I went back to the other approach of cutting a 2' workpiece half way along a marked line freehand.

I had been imagining that the necessary adjustment was big. (Certainly the Snodgrass adjustment is big!) Are you saying that I should be able to eliminate the 1/2" of drift by making tiny adjustments? Is there a system to this? Like if the cut line is veering to the left which direction would I adjust the tracking?

If your cut is tracking to the left or to the back of the saw then you would want to adjust the tracking on the top wheel to the back a very small amount and do a test cut.
With that said I would say if you have the blade centered on the upper wheel and it is tracking off 1/2" I would look at a different blade. I have a Jet 14" and at one time I got a cheap blade, (1/2") and it would not track at all I worked with it but could not get it tracking straight. I then got a blade for Timber Wolf installed it, set the tracking and it was straight as a string.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Adrian, the miter gauge slot should be parallel to the blade path.

Adjust your blade so it tracks properly on the upper wheel then make sure your miter slot is parallel. The table shouldn't need or be able to be adjusted much to do this.

Normally, tracking adjustments are miniscule, and I don't normally adjust it when changing blades.

I suggest you buy a good quality non carbide blade, and set up your saw.

If you're using a very small blade then you just look at the drift of the cut, drifting into the fence, blade too far forward. Drifting away from the fence, blade too far rearward.

As I said you don't normally adjust tracking once the saw is set up............Rod.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Adrian,
I squared the table on my 14" Grizzly by pulling all the blade guides back, tensioning the blade and running the blade while tracking the gullet of the blade to the middle of the top wheel as Alex Snodgrass recommends. Then, I put a 24" steel straight edge flush up next to the blade in between teeth. The blade I was using was a 1/2" wood slicer. I then (using magnifying glasses) measured the distances at each end of the miter slot and the straight edge. I had to move the table a tiny amount to take care of a huge amount of what I thought of as drift. Once this procedure was completed and the table repositioned to be absolutely parallel to the blade path, there is NO drift. The fence is set parallel to the miter slot and things are really great. My table got out of alignment when the saw was moved by holding the table rather than grabbing something like the motor or frame of the saw. If this explanation doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again.
Regards,
Tom

[Adrian Mariano]

Hi Adrian, the miter gauge slot should be parallel to the blade path.

Adjust your blade so it tracks properly on the upper wheel then make sure your miter slot is parallel. The table shouldn't need or be able to be adjusted much to do this.

Normally, tracking adjustments are miniscule, and I don't normally adjust it when changing blades.

I suggest you buy a good quality non carbide blade, and set up your saw.

If you're using a very small blade then you just look at the drift of the cut, drifting into the fence, blade too far forward. Drifting away from the fence, blade too far rearward.

As I said you don't normally adjust tracking once the saw is set up............Rod.

So what do you mean when you say the blade "tracks properly on the upper wheel"? At the moment the tracking on the wheel looks great. It appears stable and centered. But apparently it's not right..... And what should the miter slot be parallel to?

Are you saying I should get a non-carbide blade and use it to set up the saw and then switch back to the carbide blade? I'm a little confused about this. I had heard that, if anything, the carbide blades should be more reliable, because they are precision machined carbide teeth the set should be very uniform, so the blade shouldn't be the source of trouble (unless it's got something to do with the weld).

[Adrian Mariano]

Adrian,
I squared the table on my 14" Grizzly by pulling all the blade guides back, tensioning the blade and running the blade while tracking the gullet of the blade to the middle of the top wheel as Alex Snodgrass recommends. Then, I put a 24" steel straight edge flush up next to the blade in between teeth. The blade I was using was a 1/2" wood slicer. I then (using magnifying glasses) measured the distances at each end of the miter slot and the straight edge. I had to move the table a tiny amount to take care of a huge amount of what I thought of as drift. Once this procedure was completed and the table repositioned to be absolutely parallel to the blade path, there is NO drift. The fence is set parallel to the miter slot and things are really great. My table got out of alignment when the saw was moved by holding the table rather than grabbing something like the motor or frame of the saw. If this explanation doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again.
Regards,
Tom

Well, in this case you don't know that you got your table oriented with the miter slot perpendicular to the plane of the wheels, which is presumably what you would need for there to be no drift. Turning the table is one method of correcting for drift---it doesn't mean you don't have drift.

When I tried to estimate drift using the straight edge on the blade I didn't find the method to be reliable. I think I would need a wider blade for this to work. I used the test cut method to assess drift. This process works, and with the laser line level it's definitely not so hard to do a decent job of it, because it gives a mark in space to line the table up to as you adjust. But it's not clear that aligning the table this way aligns it according to the "blade path" that Rod has been talking about. I don't know what the difference is between the "blade path" and the cut line. Presumably this process lines up with the cut line.

[John TenEyck]

You will get straight cuts when three things happen: the wheels are coplaner, you have a sharp blade with equal set on both sides, and the blade is tracking properly (whether it ends up centered or not is irrelevant). If you are sure your blade is not the problem and you have adjusted the tracking without success, then I suggest you pull off the table and wheel covers and check to see if the wheels are in plane. My saw would not cut straight until I shimmed them planer. With all due respect to Mr. Snodgrass, who says not to bother checking them, it is critical they be aligned properly.

John

[Doug Ladendorf]

Adjust the tracking of the blade on the top wheel, until you eliminate the problem.

This ^^^ I did set up my 14" saw (PM 141) using Snodgrass' method and it worked great. With wider blades it might not work well as evidenced by other threads here on the subject. I have found that tracking on the wheel should be adjusted rather than changing the fence, have a good sharp blade, and the wheels do not necessarily need to be coplanar. On most saws when you adjust the tracking it's affecting the coplanarity, and you can knock yourself out trying to achieve both coplanar wheels and a properly tracking blade. If the blade is cutting wood straight then it's irrelevant whether the wheels are coplanar.

[Rod Sheridan]

So what do you mean when you say the blade "tracks properly on the upper wheel"? At the moment the tracking on the wheel looks great. It appears stable and centered. But apparently it's not right..... And what should the miter slot be parallel to?

Are you saying I should get a non-carbide blade and use it to set up the saw and then switch back to the carbide blade? I'm a little confused about this. I had heard that, if anything, the carbide blades should be more reliable, because they are precision machined carbide teeth the set should be very uniform, so the blade shouldn't be the source of trouble (unless it's got something to do with the weld).

When you have problems with a band saw, the first thing you do is change the blade for a different one.

I would start there.

Another issue with carbide blades is tension, many saws won't be able to tension them properly.

So with your carbide blade centered on the wheel, how does the cut look using the fence, toe in, parallel or toe out?

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

There are alot more bandsaws out there that cannot tension a carbide blade properly than can. Start with a fresh, simple blade and work out from there. Good luck,

Erik

[Kent A Bathurst]

If the blade is ......... dull it will not track properly when cutting.


I vote for dull.

I would suggest you mount a new resaw blade, and rule the blade in or out as the culprit, before you get too much deeper in saw adjustments...........

[Adrian Mariano]

When you have problems with a band saw, the first thing you do is change the blade for a different one.

I would start there.

Another issue with carbide blades is tension, many saws won't be able to tension them properly.

So with your carbide blade centered on the wheel, how does the cut look using the fence, toe in, parallel or toe out?

Regards, Rod.

My blade is tensioned to 15k psi according to my blade tension gauge, which is supposed to be adequate. I could increase tension. (It's not maxed out.)

Before I rotated the table the cut was towards the fence. Note, however, that the position of the table at this point was no magical thing. We took the table off to lighten the saw when moving it into the shop, so the table was not in any calibrated "correct" position, though it was roughly centered in its rotational range, I think. I rotated the table counterclockwise to try to line up the cut line with the fence.

Regarding coplanar alignment, I know my old saw adjusted tracking by tilting the top wheel, so if you want to be coplanar it forces you to set the tracking to a fixed, specific position to line up the top wheel with the bottom wheel. I did this on my old saw and I still had drift. And the tracking was kind of tricky with it set up this way. I once pushed the blade off the wheel (because the guide post wasn't parallel to the blade so if you moved the guide post without backing off the thrust bearing it would move the blade) and it took me half an hour to get the blade back on and tracking again. This doesn't inspire me to think that coplanar tracking is the solution to every problem. (And this saw & blade had drift.)

[Adrian Mariano]

I vote for dull.

I would suggest you mount a new resaw blade, and rule the blade in or out as the culprit, before you get too much deeper in saw adjustments...........

Why would a brand new blade be dull? If I have to worry about that possibility it seems like I can't hope to get anything working.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Why would a brand new blade be dull? If I have to worry about that possibility it seems like I can't hope to get anything working.

Did not read where it is a new blade - must have missed that bit. Sorry.

Even with a Trimaster, things can sometimes go wrong - but that is one damn fine blade - had 2, now 1, myself.

Still and all - if some teeth happened to get out of alignment somehow, somewhere, you could see tracking problems.

Just saying - for $20 or $25, you could toss on a wood slicer, or an olsen, and see what's what. Your frustration is coming thru loud and clear, and I don't blame you one bit - I would be righteously annoyed also. But - the scientific approach to solving problems is to eliminate possible variables from the list............

Don't give up.....if I can get my 14" delta c-Frame to resaw 10" WO, then it clearly ain't rocket science, because I am simply not that good.

You probably don't want to hear anything like this, but I will offer it anyway: There are many sources for info out there - a few have been mentioned here. The problem is, anyone with a keyboard and a smart phone can post videos that make them look brilliant. Or just a keyboard - and you get rocket scientists like Kent and Myk weighing in :p.........

To my knowledge, no one is better than Mark Duginske. Book is cheap on Amazon. Walk away from it for a day or two while the book is coming, take a deep breath, and walk through Mark's instructions step-by step - go back to the beginning, and challenge your assumptions.

FWIW - When I had my Trimaster, I put it on when I needed exceptional performance for resawing serious hardwoods, stuff like that - otherwise I had one of those other two on. Did not want to use that beauty on junk that got slapped through there to make jigs, hidden structural parts, etc. But - your case may well be different.....just sayin.

Keep us up to date - we feel your pain..............

[Allan Speers]

I tried the Snodgrass method once on my 14" Delta X5. When I adjusted to the point that a 5/8" blade's gullets were at the center of the top wheel, the blade moved so far forward on the lower wheel, it was scraping against the front flange!

I shook my head, then immediately put it back to where it had been working just fine, thank you very much.

This really puzzled me at the time. Should I have shimmed my bottom wheel out almost 1/2" just to use his method? Could my USA-made Delta have been THAT off from the factory? I don't see how.

Could I have been missing something else?

[Bob Wingard]

I tried the Snodgrass method once on my 14" Delta X5. When I adjusted to the point that a 5/8" blade's gullets were at the center of the top wheel, the blade moved so far forward on the lower wheel, it was scraping against the front flange!

I shook my head, then immediately put it back to where it had been working just fine, thank you very much.

This really puzzled me at the time. Should I have shimmed my bottom wheel out almost 1/2" just to use his method? Could my USA-made Delta have been THAT off from the factory? I don't see how.





Could I have been missing something else?


Do you have any shims behind the top wheel ??? Many folks put shims & washers there in an attempt to attain the coplanar state. I tried Alex's method ... had terrible results ... THEN ... I remembered I had put a precision ground shim behind the wheel trying for that coplanar status. I took it out ... readjusted everything and it works just as he professes. COPLANARITY is a MYTH !!! It is impossible to maintain coplanarity between two wheels where one must be adjusted for the purpose of tracking ... as soon as you adjust tension or use your blade tracking feature ... it is gone.

[Phil Thien]

Do you have any shims behind the top wheel ??? Many folks put shims & washers there in an attempt to attain the coplanar state. I tried Alex's method ... had terrible results ... THEN ... I remembered I had put a precision ground shim behind the wheel trying for that coplanar status. I took it out ... readjusted everything and it works just as he professes. COPLANARITY is a MYTH !!! It is impossible to maintain coplanarity between two wheels where one must be adjusted for the purpose of tracking ... as soon as you adjust tension or use your blade tracking feature ... it is gone.

You understand the logical consequence of your statement would be either:

(1) There is some ideal other than coplanar and saw wheels must be thusly aligned.

-or-

(2) Bandsaws work great provided the wheels are NOT coplanar.


#1 is unlikely, otherwise the relationship between the two wheels would have been published by a manufacturer somewhere along the line.

#2 is unlikely, as so many people have found that their saws work better as the wheels approximate a coplanar relationship.

So based on this, it seems likely that at some point you added the shim and actually moved your wheels out of alignment. Removing the shim brought them back.

Coplanar was a poor choice of words to explain that wheels should be aligned to induce the least amount of twist to a blade revolving around them. There is, of course, a point of diminishing returns here. But twist = vibration, and the more closely aligned the wheels, the less twist.

[lowell holmes]

I've used Duginske's book as a guide on my 14" Jet bandsaw. However, I added Carter after market guides to the saw. I stuck with Duginske's set up.

After seeing the Snodgrass video, I set my saw up in accordance to his suggestions. I feel like the saw is performing better after the changes, but the improvement is not great.
The saw seems to be running more free now and the blade tracks well.

I would be happy with either set up, but will not go back to the old set-up unless something develops.

[John TenEyck]

Did you bother to put a straight edge across the two wheels before or after you removed the shim? If removing the shim helped the blade cut straight that's great, but to say the wheels don't need to be coplaner with no proof is poor journalism. As Phil said, you could just as easily have brought them closer to being in plane. All I know is my saw would not cut straight, and by straight I mean parallel with the miter slot, until after I aligned the wheels to be as close to coplaner as I could get them. BTW, that required adding shims behind the upper wheel. That is with no blade installed. Under tension the upper wheel has to be tilted back to accommodate the bending of the frame. When the blade rides in the center of the top wheel it's closer to the front on the bottom wheel, at least on my saw. The blade is perpendicular to the table so that tells me the upper frame is bending towards the front of the saw. Other saws may behave differently but the alignment principles are the same - there's no myth about it.

John

[Bob Wingard]

You understand the logical consequence of your statement would be either:

(1) There is some ideal other than coplanar and saw wheels must be thusly aligned.

-or-

(2) Bandsaws work great provided the wheels are NOT coplanar.


#1 is unlikely, otherwise the relationship between the two wheels would have been published by a manufacturer somewhere along the line.

#2 is unlikely, as so many people have found that their saws work better as the wheels approximate a coplanar relationship.

So based on this, it seems likely that at some point you added the shim and actually moved your wheels out of alignment. Removing the shim brought them back.

Coplanar was a poor choice of words to explain that wheels should be aligned to induce the least amount of twist to a blade revolving around them. There is, of course, a point of diminishing returns here. But twist = vibration, and the more closely aligned the wheels, the less twist.




#1 : Coplanarity simply does not exist ... at least, it cannot be maintained. Change a blade .. change tension .. adjust the blade's tracking .. it's GONE !!!

#2 : IF you could achieve the elusive coplanarity, tracking the blade would become extremely difficult ... the closer you come to being coplanar, the more it resembles trying to balance an elephant on the edge of a knife blade ... the slightest nudge either way, and the tracking jumps to one side or the other.

#3 : If you need to shim the upper wheel whilst attempting the coplanarity exercise, for every tiny fraction of an inch you move the wheel outward, you are substantially increasing the load on the tracking/tensioning components of the saw ... a longer moment of force means you are actually losing leverage the further you place the wheel from it's horizontal pivot point ... and you might possibly be exceeding the manufacturer's recommended loading on those components.

#4 : Your claim that the manufacturers should/must claim some mystical relationship between the wheels is simply nonsense ... THEY have engineered their products to work a certain way, under specific conditions ... there is simply no need to mess with their engineering.

#5 : You ARE correct in that at some point I inserted the shim, trying to attain the mythical coplanarity ... when I realized what an utter waste of time that was, I simply removed it .. returning the saw to it's original factory configuration, at which time, it performed flawlessly using Alex's technique.

#6 : Any blade, tensioned between two wheels should not have any "twist" in it ... such a condition could only occur when there is an extreme horizontal misalignment of the two axis.

[Bob Wingard]

Did you bother to put a straight edge across the two wheels before or after you removed the shim?
John


NAH ... I just randomly turned and surface ground a chunk of steel to some arbitrary dimensions ... Of COURSE I used a straight edge to setup the wheels ...

[Phil Thien]

#1 : Coplanarity simply does not exist ... at least, it cannot be maintained. Change a blade .. change tension .. adjust the blade's tracking .. it's GONE !!!

As I've said, coplanar is a poorly chosen word, but it seems to be the word most people reach for when talking about this issue.


#2 : IF you could achieve the elusive coplanarity, tracking the blade would become extremely difficult ... the closer you come to being coplanar, the more it resembles trying to balance an elephant on the edge of a knife blade ... the slightest nudge either way, and the tracking jumps to one side or the other.

It doesn't work like that. We apply tension by increasing the distance between the top and bottom wheels. The band can't "jump" from one side to the next, because the length of the band is shorter than the distance around the wheels. That is why on a properly tuned bandsaw that the band running on the center of the top wheel runs front of center on the bottom. It can't run any further back on the bottom wheel because the band simply isn't long enough.


#3 : If you need to shim the upper wheel whilst attempting the coplanarity exercise, for every tiny fraction of an inch you move the wheel outward, you are substantially increasing the load on the tracking/tensioning components of the saw ... a longer moment of force means you are actually losing leverage the further you place the wheel from it's horizontal pivot point ... and you might possibly be exceeding the manufacturer's recommended loading on those components.

You seem to be arguing from the perspective that manufacturers purposely offset their wheels. They don't. There is no magical proportion to offset wheels. Again, if there were such a value, it would be documented somewhere in service manuals ("How to achieve the proper offset after reinstalling wheels"). The reason you've never read such an article is that bandsaw wheels are already closely aligned, it is designed into the frames and other components.


#4 : Your claim that the manufacturers should/must claim some mystical relationship between the wheels is simply nonsense ... THEY have engineered their products to work a certain way, under specific conditions ... there is simply no need to mess with their engineering.

That isn't what I said, I said they DON'T design them with any sort of wheel offset, otherwise they'd DOCUMENT the wheel offset. Lack of documentation of a wheel offset indicates they likely intend for the wheels to be closely aligned.


#5 : You ARE correct in that at some point I inserted the shim, trying to attain the mythical coplanarity ... when I realized what an utter waste of time that was, I simply removed it .. returning the saw to it's original factory configuration, at which time, it performed flawlessly using Alex's technique.

Likely you created an offset in wheels that were already aligned.


#6 : Any blade, tensioned between two wheels should not have any "twist" in it ... such a condition could only occur when there is an extreme horizontal misalignment of the two axis.

You're going back to my point of my point of diminishing returns. Close enough, is good enough.

But hopefully it is clear to everyone reading this that, as we shift one wheel in relation to another, a little more, and a little more, you get to the point where there is enough offset that the twist induces a vibration.

There are so many of these sorts of posts on woodworking forums it is actually pretty comical.

They go something like this:

(1) I never checked my wheels and my saw is fine, so coplanar doesn't matter.

or (2) I tried adjusting my saw, just made it worse.

Again, people get hung up on this coplanar term and I get that. Wheels don't need to be coplanar.

But as someone that has owned quite a few bandsaws now, I can tell you it has not been uncommon to get a used bandsaw that runs terribly and find that the wheels are way our of whack, either because of something the PO did, or because it was just like that from the factory.

[Bob Wingard]

As I've said, coplanar is a poorly chosen word, but it seems to be the word most people reach for when talking about this issue.



It doesn't work like that. We apply tension by increasing the distance between the top and bottom wheels. The band can't "jump" from one side to the next, because the length of the band is shorter than the distance around the wheels. That is why on a properly tuned bandsaw that the band running on the center of the top wheel runs front of center on the bottom. It can't run any further back on the bottom wheel because the band simply isn't long enough.



You seem to be arguing from the perspective that manufacturers purposely offset their wheels. They don't. There is no magical proportion to offset wheels. Again, if there were such a value, it would be documented somewhere in service manuals ("How to achieve the proper offset after reinstalling wheels"). The reason you've never read such an article is that bandsaw wheels are already closely aligned, it is designed into the frames and other components.



That isn't what I said, I said they DON'T design them with any sort of wheel offset, otherwise they'd DOCUMENT the wheel offset. Lack of documentation of a wheel offset indicates they likely intend for the wheels to be closely aligned.



Likely you created an offset in wheels that were already aligned.



You're going back to my point of my point of diminishing returns. Close enough, is good enough.

But hopefully it is clear to everyone reading this that, as we shift one wheel in relation to another, a little more, and a little more, you get to the point where there is enough offset that the twist induces a vibration.

There are so many of these sorts of posts on woodworking forums it is actually pretty comical.

They go something like this:

(1) I never checked my wheels and my saw is fine, so coplanar doesn't matter.

or (2) I tried adjusting my saw, just made it worse.

Again, people get hung up on this coplanar term and I get that. Wheels don't need to be coplanar.

But as someone that has owned quite a few bandsaws now, I can tell you it has not been uncommon to get a used bandsaw that runs terribly and find that the wheels are way our of whack, either because of something the PO did, or because it was just like that from the factory.



I couldn't disagree with you any more strongly on every point ... bottom line is, I removed the attempted coplanarity effort ... aligned & setup the saw by Alex's technique ... it works perfectly ... that is all I really care about, and I don't really have any interest in arguing the point with you. Done & gone ... PLONK !!!

[Phil Thien]

I couldn't disagree with you any more strongly on every point ... bottom line is, I removed the attempted coplanarity effort ... aligned & setup the saw by Alex's technique ... it works perfectly ... that is all I really care about, and I don't really have any interest in arguing the point with you. Done & gone ... PLONK !!!

LOL, is that the internet equiv. of a mic drop?

For anyone else still reading...

Bandsaws are funny animals, newbies seem to struggle with them more than any other tool in their shop.

I think one large contributing factor is that there are so many blades shipped with bad welds. I'm not going to name names but one brand more than any other has probably caused more users to question the quality/alignment of their bandsaw, than all others combined. Typically they (poster) gets a multi-blade deal and low and behold, all the blades track equally poorly. And it can't be the blades, right? Because they ALL track the same (poor) way. They're wiggling back and forth and cutting crooked and won't ride where they should on the wheels, etc.

So then they visit the forums and ask for advice and they're told maybe their wheels aren't coplanar. Okay now they're adjusting their saw and things are working better with the 1/4" band but horribly with the 1/2" band. Back to the forum, seeking more advice.

Now they're told, "check your tension spring, maybe you have a bent wheel, blah blah blah..."

Maybe they get frustrated and move on and come back to it months later. Maybe they go to a seminar at a woodworking show, maybe they read some books.

But at some point, they buy another brand of blade, and things start to work remarkably better.

But they never realize it was mostly the blade, they blame their earlier technique.

The reality is, I can run my blade like Mr. Snodgrass suggests, or I can run it perfectly centered, doesn't matter. As long as I've got a good blade and my wheels are fairly aligned, I'm going to get pretty darn good results.

I choose to run blades centered because: (1) The manufacturers of every saw (save for the Inca with flat wheels) I've owned have said to do so. (2) Running the gullet on the crown causes excessive tire wear. (3) I get superior cuts and zero drift.

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight except to say that on a number of occasions, I have had owners swear to me up one side and down the other that "it can't possibly be the blades" and lo and behold...

I have seen owners get multiple blades of different types with bad welds, even batches from different vendors with bad welds. No vendor seems to be immune to it, either.

Assuming you can get the blade tracking and tensioned properly in the static state, the next "tier" of troubleshooting is, "Try a different blade". Just my 2-cents as aways.

Erik

[jack forsberg]

that Snodgrass is like the "Sham Wow Guy" of 14" band saws:p hes good:rolleyes:

[Chris Parks]

Why would a brand new blade be dull? If I have to worry about that possibility it seems like I can't hope to get anything working.

There has been a run of blade material used in Laguna Carbide blades that was giving the same problem as you describe from new.