Mixing stain/dye & poly

[David Ragan]

As my little table nears completion, I like so many other before me are just ready to get it over with.

Howz about if I mix some Lockwood oil stain powder in with some poly?

The desired color is Dark dark Brown, and the wood is that two tone maple that had some critter grow in it (self harvested) that gives some parts a grey-green hue.

Of course, run test sample.......

The poly protection is what I'm after.

I pulled a few of the cans that I have.....

313848

I also have Transfast, TransTint, TintsAll, and Mixol colorants.

Just looking for a down and dirty generic dark brown stain (that will mask the two hues of this wood) that I can do in one to two coats and be done. Preferably with Polyurethane.

Thanks

[John TenEyck]

I know the feeling, but now is not the time for the "just get it over with" approach. All your hard work will look like crap if the finish is poor. If you want simple dark brown why not just apply a dark brown stain and then follow that with your poly? I see no advantage of putting Lockwood's OB dye in your poly, and several disadvantages, so I wouldn't go that route. I'd be inclined to put on a wash coat of Sealcoat shellac, then dye it to help unify the color, then stain it, and then apply poly. That gives you a lot of flexibility, will give you any color you want, and it'll still look like wood when you're done. And yes, make samples from your scrap, start to finish, until you like what you have.

John

[David Ragan]

I know the feeling, but now is not the time for the "just get it over with" approach. All your hard work will look like crap if the finish is poor. If you want simple dark brown why not just apply a dark brown stain and then follow that with your poly? I see no advantage of putting Lockwood's OB dye in your poly, and several disadvantages, so I wouldn't go that route. I'd be inclined to put on a wash coat of Sealcoat shellac, then dye it to help unify the color, then stain it, and then apply poly. That gives you a lot of flexibility, will give you any color you want, and it'll still look like wood when you're done. And yes, make samples from your scrap, start to finish, until you like what you have.

John

Of course, you're right. It would be great if it looked nice too.

Steps:
1) put on coat of shellac-I have Sealcoat.
2) let dry how long?
3) dye, then stain?
I can't keep those two terms straight....exactly what do you mean please?

If I use the, say, Minwax finish in the picture above, can I get it darker by just going over it again? How long do I wait between those coats?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Of course, you're right. It would be great if it looked nice too.

Steps:
1) put on coat of shellac-I have Sealcoat.
2) let dry how long?
3) dye, then stain?
I can't keep those two terms straight....exactly what do you mean please?

If I use the, say, Minwax finish in the picture above, can I get it darker by just going over it again? How long do I wait between those coats?

A thin seal coat of shellac will be dry before you get the can back on the shelf.

Dye, then stain. TransXXX is dye - very teensy pigment particles that color the wood cells. Don't know the other 2 products, but they sound like dye as well. Pigment stain has, relatively, big pigment particles that sit on top of the wood. The dye won't really do much if you stain first - you use it to put on a base color before the stain.

Take a piece of whatever. Put dye on one half, and stain on the other. There is no mistaking them.

For me - I would use the Transfast with water - color does not lift like the Transtint with water does.

You could also take a bit of your poly, and tint it with the TransTint - try it and see how that looks. You're just adding a tint, or some tone - - not really coloring at that point.

Last - do yourself a BIG favor. Go to Amazon, and get a finishing book by Flexner or Jewitt or both. Money well spent. Them dudes are smart.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Just looking for a down and dirty generic dark brown stain (that will mask the two hues of this wood) that I can do in one to two coats and be done.That's the "holy grail" that furniture makers have been searching for since before the time of the ancient Egyptians.....

& ,,,,they are still looking for it.

The most recent incarnation is called "Poly Shades".
Feel free to search for that and take a cue from all the negatives posted about it looking like real crap.

[glenn bradley]

Also, do not be thrown by the dull, lifeless appearance of the dyed material. It will spring to life when the topcoat hits it.

[David Ragan]

A thin seal coat of shellac will be dry before you get the can back on the shelf.

Dye, then stain. TransXXX is dye - very teensy pigment particles that color the wood cells. Don't know the other 2 products, but they sound like dye as well. Pigment stain has, relatively, big pigment particles that sit on top of the wood. The dye won't really do much if you stain first - you use it to put on a base color before the stain.

Take a piece of whatever. Put dye on one half, and stain on the other. There is no mistaking them.

For me - I would use the Transfast with water - color does not lift like the Transtint with water does.

You could also take a bit of your poly, and tint it with the TransTint - try it and see how that looks. You're just adding a tint, or some tone - - not really coloring at that point.

Last - do yourself a BIG favor. Go to Amazon, and get a finishing book by Flexner or Jewitt or both. Money well spent. Them dudes are smart.

Yo Kent, did you change your avatar?

I have those two books already. Still confused. Let me go over all this again in the AM.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yo Kent, did you change your avatar?


Go to Lumber Yard, and join in the fun...............

[John TenEyck]

Of course, you're right. It would be great if it looked nice too.

Steps:
1) put on coat of shellac-I have Sealcoat.
2) let dry how long? An hour is plenty
3) dye, then stain?
I can't keep those two terms straight....exactly what do you mean please? Yes, Transfast or Transtint, then one of the MinWax stains. Let the dye dry overnight before staining. Let the stain dry overnight before applying your finish.

If I use the, say, Minwax finish in the picture above, can I get it darker by just going over it again? How long do I wait between those coats? No, more coats of finish won't darken the color much. Let the finish dry 24 hours between coats.

John

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[David Ragan]

John

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Isn't there a method where I can just add more to make wood darker, apply another coat?

Thanks!!:confused:

[John TenEyck]

Yes, if you use a toner like your original idea of putting oil soluble dye in your oil based poly. It will be like having MinWax Polyshades, with all of it's benefits and problems. Try some on some scrap and see how you like it.

John

[David Ragan]

Yes, if you use a toner like your original idea of putting oil soluble dye in your oil based poly. It will be like having MinWax Polyshades, with all of it's benefits and problems. Try some on some scrap and see how you like it.

John

Forgive me for belaboring the question, but I remember reading that benefits of dyes/stains (?) were that if you want to darken the color you could add more?

I see now you point about adding the colorant to the protective layer of finish--the colorant would effectively block your ability to visualize the wood underneath cause it's suspended in the protective layer, not ''in" the wood fibers???

[Kent A Bathurst]

Forgive me for belaboring the question, but I remember reading that benefits of dyes/stains (?) were that if you want to darken the color you could add more?

I see now you point about adding the colorant to the protective layer of finish--the colorant would effectively block your ability to visualize the wood underneath cause it's suspended in the protective layer, not ''in" the wood fibers???

WIth dye - it is easy to darken. Make a stronger mix than the "recommended" dosage. Yes - on the tinting the finish coat - at a certain point. A little color won't muddy the view, but a lot of color will.

David - You've got all the ingredients - time to start running tests on scrap wood. Mix up a little bit of dye [measure the water in teaspoons is what I mean by "a little bit", and the dye powder in 1/8 teaspoons]- the easiest thing to do is to make it way too strong, and then add more water to try a few lighter versions. Keep accurate track of amount of water and amount of dye, so you can repeat the final choice on a larger scale.

Then, try some stain on part of each dye test.

YOu will be able to dial it in, in reasonably short order.

[David Ragan]

WIth dye - it is easy to darken. Make a stronger mix than the "recommended" dosage. Yes - on the tinting the finish coat - at a certain point. A little color won't muddy the view, but a lot of color will.

David - You've got all the ingredients - time to start running tests on scrap wood. Mix up a little bit of dye [measure the water in teaspoons is what I mean by "a little bit", and the dye powder in 1/8 teaspoons]- the easiest thing to do is to make it way too strong, and then add more water to try a few lighter versions. Keep accurate track of amount of water and amount of dye, so you can repeat the final choice on a larger scale.

Then, try some stain on part of each dye test.

YOu will be able to dial it in, in reasonably short order.

OK, OK, guess I'll have to get all that stuff out.

I appreciate you alls patience.

I see it as kind of a science experiment.

I have some super strong stock mixes of the Lockwood stuff already.

Let me get the dang legs on this thing, and I'll start here 'pretty soon'.

[Prashun Patel]

David-
I trust and respect Kent's and John's advice. But before you get lost in the weeds:

I would start here with your experiments:

1) Dye the raw wood at a some diluted percentage in water. Measure carefully and RECORD THAT PERCENTAGE. Apply it liberally with a sponge to the test board. Then let it dry.
2) Topcoat it with 1-2 coats of poly.

If you want it darker, then your next test should be 1) but repeat it 2-3 times (letting each time dry) before topcoating.

If it still does not get darker, then increase your percentage of dye in water.

You don't really need shellac unless your test board looks blotchy and uneven after the poly.
You don't really need stain after dye in all cases. If you are going for a really dark color, then an oil stain or gel stain applied over a thin coat of shellac can be a way to 'paint it black'. people also do this to achieve a multi-layered color. It's hard to explain, but when you see it it just looks very rich and deep compared to single tone dyes or stains by themselves. The oil stain can also be used to build up in corners for a patina or aged look. However, if you are interested in a quick, respectable finish, you don't need that. You can get to 'generic brown' with dye alone.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm good with Prashun's scheme as well. But, to be honest, I don't go thru the varnish bit when I am searching for color........I know from experience what the varnish is going to do to the color, so you might want to go that route.

Many ways to flay that feline.

Screw around for a while, and you'll find something you are comfortable with.

If you haven't thought this far ahead - set up a folder on your PC for each of your projects, and keep notes on stuff like Finishing Schedule; Lessons Learned; Design Details, etc. You will go back there more than you might think...........

As in - I am likely going to make another "keep it"piece to go with all the other A+C stuff that I have built for our house. First piece was >>12 years ago. I have got the detailed finishing schedule, so I can match that next piece dead-nuts to the older stuff..........

And then, the first time I did true-divided-lite inset doors on a bookcase, the ground was littered with the debris from a classic train-wreck full of mistakes. Documented them all, and the "do this instead, idiot" lessons learned..............

[Prashun Patel]

Also, know that polyurethane will add a light golden (I say amber, some say yellow) cast to the piece.

[David Ragan]

All that is good stuff, thanks.

I just put the legs on and plugged the holes, will let it set overnite.

Have the Jewitt and Flexner book out.

**do you all mean by stain, the stuff that comes already made, by whomever, in any solvent, etc......AND, by dye something that we make ourselves with powder/pigments?

[Prashun Patel]

No.

I mean 'stain' as pigment stain, which is the ready made stuff you find @ BORG. It comes in oil or water. It colors by lodging itself into pores.

I mean 'dye' to mean something that colors the wood fibers. It so happens that many of these are available in powder form that must be mixed with some kind of solvent. They also don't have the binders that the canned pigment stains do, so that's why you can keep applying more you-mix dye over itself, but also the reason you have to be careful when you apply a topcoat that it doesn't redissolve the dye and lift or move it. That's not a big deal with most water dyes topped with an oil topcoat like your poly. It WOULD be a big deal if you were topping with a waterbased topcoat.

In fact, it's even a big deal if you want to top with shellac. The reason people use shellac as a sealer is that when you SPRAY it on, it doesn't have time or friction to redissolve the dye. It just freezes over top of it. If you are going to use shellac as this kind of sealer, then either spray it with your hvlp equipment or buy a spray can of shellac from BORG. Don't buy the sealcoat and then try to brush or pad it on as a sealer.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Don't buy the sealcoat and then try to brush or pad it on as a sealer.

BZZZZZTTT. Wrong. ;)

Now we disagree. TransTint in water will give you color lift. But - TransFast powder in water will not - if you leave it overnite.

That's what I do. Every. Time. Period. And, I use a padding cloth to apply a seal coat. I use 3/4# - 1# cut from dewaxed flakes [never measure exactly - mox nix] which is comparable to canned Z Sealcoat cut 50/50 - which is also a good product.

Seal-dye-seal-stain-seal-varnish. First seal coat smooths the color absorption and prevents blotching, each successive seal coat locks down that color layer, so the next coat of stuff won't interfere with the previous coat of color. Not everyone does this. I do, because it has always given me boffo results, and I am always learning new mistakes, so I don't want to change something I have locked in.

There is nothing wrong with using the aerosol spray-can Zinsser shellac. Works fine. But - you can also go the other way, and that is fine also.

[Prashun Patel]

I stand corrected. i can vouch for the transint though.

[David Ragan]

Go to Lumber Yard, and join in the fun...............


Well, I got into a Millenial rant, and I guess it wasn't PC.

the solace I take is that folks have been complaining about the Gov't, their neighbors, and teenagers since the beginning of time.

[David Ragan]

Here is what I gleaned last night-

Dye is a molecule that is colored, it gets into the wood and binds to the fibers.
-can fade (especially in sunlight and fluorescent)
-can be built up w successive coats (as long as there is no blocking interference from a binder)
-tea, coffee, ground up husks of nuts, insects, etc.
-the color purple was relegated to royalty cause it took ~4 million mulloscs from Mediterranean to get one pound.

Pigments are particles-historically of earth.
Gave us Van Dyck brown, Sienna, Umber..but no primary colors of red/yellow/blue are found pigment wise in Mother Earth.
-Don't fade (as much?)
-accentuate grain cause the particles settle into pores.
-super small size pigments are made these days that color more evenly instead of lodging in pores-yet hold color better, a characteristic of pigments in general.
-if your wood in fine grained, and you sand/plane super fine, I have had it where not much pigment takes at all.

Stains, my current understanding is a generic term for any liquid solution of either or combination of the two above; there may also be a solvent and or binder in the solution.

the above is my limited understanding.

Please clarify if warranted:rolleyes:

Thanks for your attention:D