Bridal Chest

[Jim Gallo]

Hello all,

I have been lurking here for a while now, but I think I have only posted once. But I need some help, and I know if there is anywhere to get experienced woodworker's help, it is right here.

I am planning on building my future daughter-in-law a bridal chest for their wedding in October.

I want to make it out of frame and panel construction. I bought some sapele for the main structure, but I would like to make the panels out of a complimentary wood. Can you recommend a complimentary wood that will look good with Sapele.

I would like to use an exotic veneer on the panels, but I can't, because I really like the profile of my Freud rail & stile router bit set, and I wouldn't be able to raise the veneered mdf panel.
I have made a veneered mdf panel before, I surrounded it with matching hardwood and put the profile on the hardwood border, but that is really a PITA.

I could not find a plan that included the way I would like to build this chest.
I plan on making separate frame and panels, then connecting one panel to another, using dowels, with the dowelmax system.
Will there be a problem with wood movement using this method?


Also, I have seen F&P chests made with 2 long rails, with individual common stiles inserted into the rails. But to me, it looks like the common stiles (Two adjacent panels sharing one stile) would need to be coped, to mate up with the long upper and lower rails. Would this be correct?


I probably confused everyone with the way I'm describing this.

And what about the lid?
Should I make it with frame & panels. Or just laminate the boards to make a wide lid?
If I laminate, should I use breadboard ends, which I have never attempted?

I wanted to make a model of my design in Sketchup, and include it in this post, but have never used Sketchup before, and when I sat down to try it, I could get no further than making a basic box.

I am totally obsessed with my new hobby of woodworking and I love reading all the posts in this and some of the other forums.
Thanks for all the help that you offer to those of us just learning.

Sincerely,
James

P.S. Would someone be kind enough to make a sketchup model of what I'd like to do. I would pay for that service.
Sent from my iPhone
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[Yonak Hawkins]

I want to make it out of frame and panel construction ... using dowels, with the dowelmax system.
Will there be a problem with wood movement using this method?There shouldn't. That's a big advantage of frame and panel construction .. minimal wood movement.


And what about the lid? Should I make it with frame & panels?

Checking out images of various styles on the web, I notice that if frame and panel construction is used on the side panels, it's also used on the lid.

I can't address your questions about type of wood or Sketch-Up. Perhaps someone else can.

[glenn bradley]

For a different opinion, the panels actually move quite a bit, that's why they're floated. From your questions I would recommend picking up a book on this type of cabinet making. It will be a fraction of the cost of your project and become a reference for future projects sure to be requested by all the admiring wedding guests that see your wedding chest. :)

Let me see if I can find something . . . try this search string 'blanket chest site:www.sawmillcreek.org/' for a load of stuff on chests.

[Jamie Buxton]

Glenn's right -- a couple of good books will help you. I recommend the classic Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking. It was originally published as a three-book group. Since then it has been republished in a variety of combinations. On Amazon, it looks like you can get the first two books used for $15 or so, or you can step up to a three-book hardcover new version for $60. It's the same valuable content in any of these versions.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Also, I have seen F&P chests made with 2 long rails, with individual common stiles inserted into the rails. But to me, it looks like the common stiles (Two adjacent panels sharing one stile) would need to be coped, to mate up with the long upper and lower rails. Would this be correct?


Yes - maybe. Depends on the details. For this one, I dry-assembled the frames and then ran a 3/16" round-over bit around the inside, with a small, fine rasp and sandpaper to deal with the bits in the corners that weren't hit by the router. Pretty simple. But - you might have a more elaborate detail in mind.

I just made this design up. The driver was the overall dimensions - I knew about how big I wanted it, and then I laid out the rough-cut quartersawn sycamore panel pieces - I wanted those to look great, in terms of grain and color match, so I was willing to give on the final dimensions so that I did not end up with a bad match there, nor leave good wood behind.

To raise the panel - I used a 7/8" x 3/8" cove bit in a router table, with the panel stood on edge. Since I don't have a router table, that's not really how I did it, but the effect would be the same - gives you a long leg to dive into the rail slot, with a nice curve up to the panel field..


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[glenn bradley]

Kent, beautiful use of contrasting woods.

[Kent A Bathurst]

THnx, Glenn - Very kind of you. Wood selection was a confluence of a couple different things.

I had the walnut - you will remember my Heirloom walnut spiels.........Had to use that for something that will hopefully stay in some branch of the family for generations. Walnut's provenance is documented with engraved brass plaque inside the lid.

And then - years ago, I stopped by Talarico in PA to get eyeballs on their veneer-grade QSWO before I spent that kind of money. In their office, they have a lot of different woods in cabinets, etc. One of them was the QS sycamore - a real attention-getter - I had absolutely no clue as to what it was until I had Sam walk me through the place. I kept that in mind, because I knew I wanted to use it someday - the chest turned out to be that day.

The ebony butterflies and pegs.........well, I do a lot of pegs for A&C stuff. I could not use raised pegs on the top [try sitting on those, eh?], and flush pegs seemed boring, so I did the butterflies - had never done them before, so - what the hell - let 'er rip - what could possibly go wrong? Got a bit carried away - not needed on every freakin' joint. Got the ebony for that simply because I took a notion.........

It's all done. Sitting in the shop. LOML says only one thing: "Why did you put those butterfly keys in it? Ruins the look."

Siiiighhhh.......... As Ricky Nelson said: You can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself........

[Jamie Buxton]

313818
...Also, I have seen F&P chests made with 2 long rails, with individual common stiles inserted into the rails. But to me, it looks like the common stiles (Two adjacent panels sharing one stile) would need to be coped, to mate up with the long upper and lower rails. Would this be correct?..

No, there are many ways to make that joint. Coping happens to be a convenient way if you have a shaper. It can quickly cut the coped end of the stile. Below is another way to make the joint. It has a real mortise-and-tenon, which is nice and strong. The profile on the inside edge is simply mitered.

[Jim Gallo]

Thanks for all the replies. Glen, I have probably 15 books on cabinetmaking, boxmaking, and joint books. However, I don't have the one by Tage Frid. But I am going to buy it.
And Kent, your chest is gorgeous. I hope mine comes out even 1/4 as nice as yours. Maybe someday I will reach that skill level.
Jamie, I have a Freud rail and stile bit set that does a fantastic job of putting the profile on frame & panels. But the method you show intrigues me. I like the way the miters are cut into the profile.
For what I have in mind though, I just need to decide whether to just make 3 or 4 panels for the front, and dowel them together, which would not look very good looking down into the chest, seeing every joint between the F & P's. The alternative is making long rails, the length of the chest, so when looking down into the chest, you will only see the edge of the long rail. I plan on making a mockup of the chest using plywood, just to see how each option looks. I've never built a piece of furniture that was this important as a gift, and I want it to be extra special, an heirloom, like Kent's.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim -

Trust me here - I am not "that skilled". I am good enough at details of joinery, as I am sure you are, when you break it down step by step, and I have also gotten good at correcting screw-ups mid-flight, due to their frequency. :p

I got squat in terms of Sketchup. But - I'm sure I have 2D elevation and plan drawings in AutoCAD that could be moved to pdf.

If you want those, sent me a PM with your email, and I'll get them out to you.

Be aware - my AutoCAD drawings are accurate in terms of plans, but then I often veer off into the tall grass during the build.............the pencil-scribbled paper copies do not get transposed to the permanent electronic record.

Oh - I am not objective here, but - I think using one set of long rails will look much better than separate panels connected. It really ain't that hard...........

[Jim Gallo]

I think you are right about it looking better with the long continuous rails. So I am trying to wrap my head around this. If I make the top and bottom rails the length of the case, those rails essentially become stiles, and the shorter vertical pieces (stiles) between the panels, become rails and need coped, except for the ones at the ends.
This night turn has me in a fog. But I think about woodworking all the time, even when I'm here at work.
Also the long horizontal pieces (rails) will still need to be coped at the ends of the case. Am I correct

[Jamie Buxton]

Coping is used only for frame components that have integral profiling on the inside edge. If you don't have profiling (see Kent's chest for instance) you don't need coping. Or if your profile is applied as a separate piece of molding, you don't need coping. Cope-and-stick is a weak joint that is popular in production lines because it is quick to make on a shaper.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim - I think you may be getting wrapped around the axle a bit, on something that is really very simple............


The rails don't need to be coped, in my design. The legs stand proud of the rails, so they are just square-cut mortise and tenon joints. And - my rails die in the legs - I do not have stiles [verticals] at the legs - that looked too clumsy to me when I was thinking it through. Your design may well be different. Look closely at my photos, and you will see what I am talking about.

Tenon the ends of the rails, and stick them into mortises in the legs.

You might be over-driving your headlights on the entire "cope" thing, my friend. In my example, I just used run-of-the-mill mortise and tenon joints where the stiles [verticals] intersected the rails [horizontal long pieces]. I do not - DO NOT - cope stuff. I am not that good is the reason, I think.

BTW - in classic cabinetry terms, your are correct in that the stiles and rails are reversed in orientation for my piece - don't get hung up on that - there are long pieces with mortises and short pieces with tenons, and you can call them bananas and mangoes, for all I care. Just don't call them Yankees and Red Sox :D

Then - I dry-fit those pieces, with a couple clamps in the right spots, and ran the router around the inside edges. The clamps have to be re-positioned a couple of times during the routing, because they get in the way. I used a lightweight laminate trimmer [mine is a Makita - most guys here like other brands]. Very easy to do. Just clamp everything up square and go for it.

Then, you can take it all apart for the panel insertion and assembly. I used those rubber ball thingies for spacers in the frame grooves to allow for the panels to expand in season. In my chest, I obviously glued it all up with the center panel first, then went for the edge panels one at a time.

Keep asking questions - no problem there.............want you to get to the end game with confidence.

[Jim Gallo]

Guys,
The reason I'm hung up on the cope term is because my rails and stiles do (or will) have a profile on them. I am using a Freud Frame & Panel Ogee Bit Set, that comes with 3 bits. The rail coping bit, the stile(grooving) bit, and the panel raising bit. This set makes a beautiful profile on frame and panels. I have made about 5 doors using this set and I really like the way they look. I don't have a shaper, but I use my router in the table. It takes no skill to cope the rails. I just run the rails iver my router table and the bit cuts the cope cut, which fits perfectly into the profile on the stiles. And the panel raising bit complements the profile on the rails and stiles. My roadblock is figuring out how to make this look right with more than one frame and panel, incorporated into a box.

[Yonak Hawkins]

For a different opinion, the panels actually move quite a bit, that's why they're floated.

glenn, thank you for supporting my answer with a technical explanation. You are correct that the design of the frame and panel system mitigates the effects of natural wood movement by "floating" the panel (the culprit) in a larger space allowing it to move and not cause that movement to transmit to the larger frame. This means that Jim can safely use this construct without having to worry about the changing size of the panel, unless he uses exceptionally wide stiles, for any reason. While stable plywood is sometimes used for the panel, the design remains the same.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Kent, gorgeous chest. Never seen sycamore before but I now I love it.
how is the health and bionic body parts (shoulder, IIRC?) doing?

best regards, patrick

[Kent A Bathurst]

Guys,
The reason I'm hung up on the cope term is because my rails and stiles do (or will) have a profile on them. I am using a Freud Frame & Panel Ogee Bit Set, that comes with 3 bits. The rail coping bit, the stile(grooving) bit, and the panel raising bit. This set makes a beautiful profile on frame and panels. I have made about 5 doors using this set and I really like the way they look. I don't have a shaper, but I use my router in the table. It takes no skill to cope the rails. I just run the rails iver my router table and the bit cuts the cope cut, which fits perfectly into the profile on the stiles. And the panel raising bit complements the profile on the rails and stiles. My roadblock is figuring out how to make this look right with more than one frame and panel, incorporated into a box.

Oh - got it. You should be fine with that set of bits.

The vertical parts should be easy - you just profile both sides, and then cope the ends.

Maybe you are wondering about where the end panels meet the leg? [a la my design]? If so, sure seems to me that you just run your profile on both sides of one spare piece, then rip the profiles off the edges to create moldings that you put in place with pins [glue too or instead, of you prefer].

I might be missing something?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, gorgeous chest. Never seen sycamore before but I now I love it.
how is the health and bionic body parts (shoulder, IIRC?) doing?

best regards, patrick

Patrick - Kind words - thanks. The key is the "quartersawn" bit. Plain sawn sycamore looks quite boring, to my eye. But - it is used that way - - just two completely different critters.

Hip all ducky. Everyone should get at least one new hip, IMO. Both mine work great - recovery was a breeze.

Shoulder reconstruction tee time is Thurs 28 May at 9:15 am.....till an estimated date in recovery at noon. :eek: :eek: At least - I will have a nice, long, mid-morning nap, eh?

Curious - do people snore while under gen'l anesthetic? Also - you think the cutter charges by the hour? If so, is there a Flat Rate Book like for a head gasket change?

Thanks for asking...............cannot say I am looking forward to it all that much. :(

The rest of you guys will be in tall cotton for 6 weeks, while my right arm is immobilized in a sling. THAT will slow down the volume of my time-wasting posts, no?

[Jim Gallo]

OK, I got it now Kent. Thanks so much for clearing it up for me. I was really worried about it and didn't want to screw up expensive wood. I think I will still make a small mockup of the chest using plywood. Thanks again.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim - full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.

Again - you want the pdf views of my design from AutoCAD, just send a PM with your email...............

EDIT: Ya know, I have made prototypes twice. Both times, I used good-quality, but inexpensive poplar. Both times, those pieces turned out to be good learning exercises, but on the whole not too bad - and went into service as painted pieces. Just sayin.......