Question: Freud blade upgrade on SawStop

[Casey Reames]

Warning: This post turned out longer than initially intended. I apologize in advance. If you get bored three lines in, just skip to the last paragraph. That's where the actual question is located. If I didn't give enough info or asked too many questions, again, I apologize.

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting on here. I've been browsing the site for years and have always found answers to my questions, so I've never really needed to post anything. However, I have a question regarding an "upgrade" I made today, and can't find any info on my inquiry.

First off, I just upgraded from using a Shopsmith as a table saw to a 3hp 52" SawStop PCS. Seriously....a dream come true. I've always seen pictures of these awesome cabinet saws (all major brands included), seen them in stores, heard fairy tales their abilities, and always thought, "sure wish I could have one of those someday." Well, that someday was two weekends ago. I finally just held my breath, closed my eyes, and swiped my wife's debit card. Haha. Just kidding.....kinda.

So, I was completely impressed with the way it ran, the way it cut, how smooth everything was. I thought the blade included with the saw had to be the best blade on the market. It worked great! Then I started reading. I found out that most people consider those blades to be "junk blades", and even heard a guy say they were specifically designed to knick hotdogs and drive into aluminum brakes.( Haha. Funny guy!) I read that a top notch blade can make a significant difference, amd how impressed you will be at the saws improvement.

To to make a long story longer, I decided on a 10" Freud 50 tooth full kerf combo blade model LU84R011. I got it home, put it on, and fired it up. Instantly I noticed that the saw was louder. The blade it's self was louder, but also the saw. Putting my hand on the table, I noticed quite a bit more vibration than with the supplied "junk" blade. Is this normal? The supplied blade is a 40 tooth combo blade, this is a 50 tooth. I also noticed that the Freud was heavier while swapping them out. Could the increased number of teeth cause more vibration? Could the increased weight cause it? Did I get a bad blade? Any help or advise would be appreciated. Also, the reason for going with the Freud over the Forrest WW2 was the salesman at woodcraft. He told me that on some saws you can tell a difference. But on a SawStop, they're built so solid, there wouldn't be a noticeable difference between the two. So, I opted for the blade that was $50 cheaper. Did I make a mistake? It seems to cut decently, but I wasn't impressed, per say. Honestly, I didn't notice much of a difference between the free blade and the blade I just paid $80 for. Am I missing something?

Thank you anyone and everyone for any help or advise you can give. I truly appreciate it.

[glenn bradley]

I would swap back and forth a couple time and get some real repeated empirical test results; carefully compare the vibration to assure it is there and not just the influence of the sound difference. If the vibration is greater there is a problem with the blade and it should be replaced. If the vibration is very close to the same, read on ;-)

My Saw Stop blade is on the wall as a decoration. I currently run Carbide processors blades but, have run Freud, Amana, Lietz and Forrest in the past. Any of these blades when brand new should cut impressively. If the new Freud is behaving worse than your factory cutter, there is a problem. My Saw Stop was nearly perfect as far as alignment goes. There was a slight correction to the table alignment which many people would have probably not bothered with. If your alignment is good, the Freud should cut extremely smooth. If it does not and the factory blade does, I would exchange the Freud.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't use the SawStop blade but I have used it and it was not a bad blade. I had a bunch of blades from my previous saw so I mostly use those.

By the way, just in case you encounter this issue: I had a problem when I had a cartridge pop. When I replaced the cartridge the saw would not start. After working with SS, it turned out that my riving knife was too close to the blade. Apparently, the software is in the cartridge and they update it - meaning a new cartridge will have new software. The new cartridge caused the saw to be more sensitive to the position of the riving knife. I had the saw for 6 or more years before I popped the cartridge so there was lots of time for software upgrades.

Mike

[David Ragan]

I used the original one-no issues. I normally use WWII, and of course, no problems--except I have assumed that all 10" blades were the same diameter. They aren't. I have popped a cartridge with that assumption on a Sears plywood blade.

You can easily make a feeler gage:

313717

Now, I always use the above whenever putting any blade on. $60 per cartridge, right?

Dimension of biz end of above the same as the recommended (nickel?) in the manual.....Nickels are good, though to run on your bandsaw to see if it will stand up on end (not having excessive vibration). Happily, the MM-16 passed.

Much of life is empirical, as Glen has said. I am not sure if the nickel test is appropriate with the SS-probably not sensitive enough.

Sounds like a bad blade, though.

[Casey Reames]

Great advise from all. Today, time permitting, I'll swap back and forth and see if I can feel a difference in blades. I may even set a bowl of water on the saw, so I can actually see the vibration. I know that's not exactly scientific, but I'm wondering if I can't get over the sound difference, so I think I feel more vibration. Ya know?! I actually did the nickle on edge test, and it stayed upright. So I set my phone on edge with the nickle and blade in view and ran a 2" thick piece of ash scrap through it. Again, the nickle stayed in edge. But....when I watched the video, the phone was vibrating so much it almost looked like there were 2 nickels. I watched a previous video and this wasn't the case. I'll just need to spend some time on it. If I think there's a problem, I'll take it to Woodcraft and have them out it on their saw. If it vibrated more than normal, it will make for a hassle free return.

Also, great advise on the cartridge update. These are things I would have never considered. And blade diameter.....didn't think of that either. I went out and looked this morning while having some coffee, and it looks like the riving knife has a little larger gap than before. Once I get this blade thing sorted out and settle on one, it's looking like it's time for some adjustments.

Has as anyone ever used the truing blade? The steel disk for making sure the miter slots are square with the blade? I'm having a suspicion that mine a few thousandths off. Now I'm not saying I'm a perfectionist....I just want everything to be perfect.

Thanks for for the replies guys.

[Larry Frank]

I use Freud blades all the time on my Sawstop with no issues. I do not notice any noise.

If it were me, I would check the blade and figure out if the blade is not flat or bent. With the money you spent on the saw getting a dial indicator to check out the saw, any new saw, is worthwhile. You should check to be certain the blade, miter gauge slot and fence are properly aligned.

IMHO it is important with any new tool to check alignment and everything else such as lose parts. It is a good way to learn about it and make certain it is working properly.

When I got my PCS, I checked it out thoroughly and did not find any issues but that is OK as it was time well spent.

I do not think I would put a bowl of water on my shiny new saw.

[Casey Reames]

I agree, I'm going to give the whole thing the old once over. And, the bowl was a big Tupperware type bowl, with just a little water in it. I was very careful.

[scott spencer]

If the blade is the only variable in play and everything else on the saw is good, it sounds like you got a blade that's not quite right. I'd exchange or return it.

[Kent Adams]

I would swap back and forth a couple time and get some real repeated empirical test results; carefully compare the vibration to assure it is there and not just the influence of the sound difference. If the vibration is greater there is a problem with the blade and it should be replaced. If the vibration is very close to the same, read on ;-)

My Saw Stop blade is on the wall as a decoration. I currently run Carbide processors blades but, have run Freud, Amana, Lietz and Forrest in the past. Any of these blades when brand new should cut impressively. If the new Freud is behaving worse than your factory cutter, there is a problem. My Saw Stop was nearly perfect as far as alignment goes. There was a slight correction to the table alignment which many people would have probably not bothered with. If your alignment is good, the Freud should cut extremely smooth. If it does not and the factory blade does, I would exchange the Freud.

Can you tell me what you mean by "Carbide Processors". I have a WWII and I thought the teeth were welded carbide?

[Prashun Patel]

I have a Sawstop 3hp. No issues whatsoever with swapping blades and vibration. I suggest you get a Freud 24t ripping blade (something you may want anyway) from HD and test it.

[Casey Reames]

I second that.

[Casey Reames]

Aren't the Freud Diablo blades HD sells all thin kerf? I was there the other day, and it looked like they were all thin.

[glenn bradley]

You can easily make a feeler gage:

313717

Doesn't Saw Stop include the little plastic gauge with the magnet in it anymore?

313721

I use mine whenever I change blades. Like David said, I can take a second to check for the $60 it might cost me :D

[Casey Reames]

Yeah, mine had that little yellow gauge.

[Dan Hahr]

I have that 50 tooth blade and it did run louder. Smooth as silk but definitely louder.
Dan

[Casey Reames]

Yeah, I think I may just be attributing the vibration to the louder sound of the blade running. I just balanced a nickle and cut a 2" thick piece of white oak and the nickle never moved. I may just be paranoid because I've never sunk this much money into a tool for hobby use. I just want everything to be right.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I would make sure that the blade is mounted properly without a piece of sawdust in the flange for example.

Combination blades are OK, however a true 24 tooth rip blade is an enormous improvement when ripping.

Likewise an 80 tooth ATB blade is great for crosscutting.

I suggest that you avoid buying lower end blades, such as you'll get at HD etc and buy a blade frome a saw maker in the USA.

I normally purchase FS Tools blades, they're available in the USA as well as other good blades from other suppliers. Perhaps some of the guys in your state could chime in.

Avoid buying thin kerf blades.

A good blade is a lifetime investment for a hobby user...................Regards, Rod.

[Mark Blatter]

I picked up that exact same saw this past week. I changed blades on it after reading your initial post to the blade I normally use. It is labeled Superior, but that is, I think the company that imports them from Germany. I put on a new version of the blade and it runs significantly quieter than the Sawstop blade.

[glenn bradley]

Yeah, I think I may just be attributing the vibration to the louder sound of the blade running. I just balanced a nickle and cut a 2" thick piece of white oak and the nickle never moved. I may just be paranoid because I've never sunk this much money into a tool for hobby use. I just want everything to be right.

Just to add some more comfort, I have 30, 40, 50, 55, 60 and 80 tooth blades that I change throughout a project depending what I am doing. They all have a different "song" to sing when you fire up the saw. The dado stack in a new ZCI? Now that's a different song altogether. Almost sounds like a low-grade tornado warning :D .

[Casey Reames]

What is the tooth count on the quieter blade? Is it also a 40 tooth?

[Casey Reames]

I typically do ripping. Does the 30 tooth blade make a clean rip cut? Like, is the cut edge gluable?

[Casey Reames]

Well, I really appreciate all the help and all the replies. What a great community. I'm going to run a few more tests and decide what to do. I grabbed a 2x4 cut off and ripped some 1" strips and every one had burn marks on them somewhere. My SS blade never burned a piece of wood.

[Jay Aubuchon]

Can you tell me what you mean by "Carbide Processors". I have a WWII and I thought the teeth were welded carbide?

I believe the reference is to http://www.carbideprocessors.com/Carbide-Processors/Worlds-Best-Saw-Blades/

[Mark Blatter]

What is the tooth count on the quieter blade? Is it also a 40 tooth?

It was a 24 tooth rip blade. I just changed it out for an 80 tooth blade and that was incredibly quiet. I could tell the saw was running, but almost no vibration.

[Casey Reames]

I ended up returning the blade. The guy at Woodcraft told me that for the cutting I predominately do, it was a poor choice of blade anyway. He recommended the glue line rip blade. 30 tooth. I put it on and that baby just cruises. No vibration, super smooth and cuts like a dream. Thanks to everyone again for their help and advise.

[Andy Booth]

Take the new blade out and inspect it.
- Chipped tooth? Uneven teeth?
- Lay it flat, does it rock? Flip over and check again.
- Check the mounting face of the blade is clean, w no burrs or excess coating.

install the blade, make sure the mounting surfaces are clean.
Clamp a scale or similar straight edge perpendicular to the face of the blade. Gap it from one of the teeth using a feeler blade and rotate the blade 180. There should be no measurable change in the gap. This proves out the blade and the spindle.
Repeat this along the axis of the blade. Rotate the blade to verify the teeth are ground to the same diameter.

The last step involves measuring how parallel the fence is to the blade. Search "Table Saw set-up alignment" in the Saw Mill Creek search engine. I like the Woodpeckers or TS-Aligner tools. Or a screw and a wood bar.
This measurement should be repeated as needed to verify that your machine is still setup correctly.

I have the 3HP model and love it. Different blade sing differently. None of my blades cause measurable table vibration.
Depending on the wood, I get burning with every type of saw blade. All I can do is make sure my tools are aligned.

You can get an app for either the iphone or Android that measures acceleration and displays the result. Acceleration is related to vibration.
I think I just let the OCD side of me loose.

[Rick Potter]

I have the same saw, and recently put a Freud melamine blade on it. Slightly different size, had to readjust the gap, works fine. Plus 1 on the Freud 24 tooth rip blade, they are great.

[David Ragan]

Doesn't Saw Stop include the little plastic gauge with the magnet in it anymore?

313721

I use mine whenever I change blades. Like David said, I can take a second to check for the $60 it might cost me :D

Dang, I never got one of those. should I feel left out?

[David Ragan]

Has as anyone ever used the truing blade? The steel disk for making sure the miter slots are square with the blade? I'm having a suspicion that mine a few thousandths off. Now I'm not saying I'm a perfectionist....I just want everything to be perfect.

Thanks for for the replies guys.

I be a perfectionist also-for all the good it does. Hair splitter.

I use these:

313875

There is still ~3K runout on the blade in different heights and tilt angles. Know what? I don't care. We are talking about wood, not tool and die making here.

Too much trouble. Blade probably has that much runout in it, factor in vibration, and operator error, the minute inaccuracy of the tool is not significant.