Carbide shaper cutters vs t alloy

[joe milana]

I've always purchased carbide cutters for my kitchen cabinet projects. I typically buy a new set for each new kitchen project and then just shelve them after for misc. use. I'm thinking about trying a t alloy set for my next kitchen project. Cabinets will be cherry, with a hard maple island, which will be painted. Think I will notice a difference?

[jack forsberg]

cuts as clean as HSS so why not use HSS. If you like drop on brazed tipped tolling sure it will hold an edge a bit longer but not as easy to sharpen or lap in shop. I might use it for panel raisers but cope cutters i think you will do better in carbide. Im not the best to ask as i run mostly HSS and don't run that much brazed tooling on full body's. I don't like most of the shapes they come in is all.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree pretty close with Jack. If you have been using carbide to raise panels you will like t alloy or HSS better,better surface.

[joe milana]

Carbide "out of the box" cuts pretty clean. My fear with the t alloy is that I will get 90% through this project & the cutters will degrade. Kinda like the HSS knives on my big jointer...great for the first few boards, then a noticable decline.

[jack forsberg]

Carbide "out of the box" cuts pretty clean. My fear with the t alloy is that I will get 90% through this project & the cutters will degrade. Kinda like the HSS knives on my big jointer...great for the first few boards, then a noticable decline.

if your running garbage steel and at to hight a speed that will be your experience with HSS. should get a 1000 feet before a lap and the lap will take less time than it does to deal with the guy that picks up your tooling (saw doctor). the point (pun intended) is HSS is and can be kept raiser sharp at all the times unlike carbide that degrades from the start. Some time you got some sugar in the cheery that want to burn but the carbide is not that dull yet what do you do? you can lap or sand IMO.

[Mel Fulks]

Again agree with Jack. If your steel jointer knives are original they probably are not HSS . They are cheap SEMI HS. Buy a
set of M2 or T 1 and you will see a big difference.

[Justin Ludwig]

I've got a set of Freeborn's T-alloy cutter stack. Perfect finish. I have a set of carbide as well, out of the box you can't tell the difference. I've only made a hundred or so doors with the T-alloy - same with the carbide. They're both still really sharp. Down side to T-alloy is if you happen to get into some bad stock or hit something random - it's not as durable as carbide. Don't get it close to MDF or anything not wood either, it will dull quickly (I've read, not tested).

I'm happy with my set. I have a miter lock bit from Freeborn also that is in T-alloy. It chews thru 1" stock quite beautifully in one pass.

[joe milana]

Thanks Justin, that helps. The carbide cutters do such a nice job, that I cant imagine the T alloy ones doing a better job.

[Tom Walz]

Part of this discussion should maybe be about how sharp an edgeyou want and why you want it that sharp.

When we research cutting tool materials, we measure edgesharpness in terms of the radius of the edge in microns. It is not a perfect system but it isconsiderably better than nothing.

A sharper edge gives a cleaner cut. You can definitely get a sharper edge onmetals than you can on carbide.

However the sharper the edge, the more likely it is to fail. With any material, the strength of thematerial is somewhat dependent on the thickness of the material. A thicker edge does not cut as well but it ismuch less likely to chip, spall, deform, or otherwise deteriorate.

Typically, someone who buys a new cutting tool would preferthat the tool cut well out-of-the-box and that the tool continued to cut wellas long as possible. Manufacturers knowthis and most work very hard to supply it.

If the edge is as sharp as possible, it increases the chancesof catastrophic failure.

In our early experiments using cermet, some ceramics ascutting tool tips we went with as sharp an edge as we could achieve. These edges chipped, broke, spalled, orotherwise dulled dramatically as soon as they were put in contact with thewood. If we honed the edge, added a landor otherwise dulled the edge a bit and we had an edge that would cut andcontinue cutting much, much longer than any other material.

Think of a fully sharp edge as having a rating of 10 then wetook the edges down to a reading of 8.5 or 9. Think of a dull edge as 5 and a practically unusable edge as 2 or lower. If we sharpen the tools to a sharpness of 10and there is a huge risk of them immediately going to a sharpness of two soonas they are used. If we provide an edge of 8.5 or 9 then the tool will givesatisfactory service for a great long time.

The above was meant to apply to general woodworking. Obviously, a surgeon (and the patient) wouldlike scalpels as sharp as possible. Similarly,a good axe will have a different edge configuration than a good knife. And woodworkers cutting balsa will have adifferent experience than those cutting knotty pine which is yet again different from thosecutting a highly abrasive tropical such as Ipe.

[jack forsberg]

Heat is what kills an edge! carbide and diamond and ceramic deal with heat at higher temperatures than HSS. There is way more than sharpness going on at the event apex. Hard materiel are brittle and so hardness is no the only metric in cutting steel strength. there is also the ease at which an edge is refreshed and the type of special machines needed to do so are out of reach of the shop . HSS is a in shop metal that is easy to maintain. I would bet that more wood in cubic meters has been milled with HSS then any other type of cutting steel in the world. if your cutting material with floor swiping in it like MDF get the hard stuff. if you want a finish that needs no sanding and is clean real wood(excluding some like teak) its hard to beat the cutting quality of this inexpensive metal HSS. I find no one out side of mill work shops understand this and there concern is only how long can i run a dull edge with heat not damaging the edge. HSS is still a massive industry. Carbide is for cutting dirt.

[Mel Fulks]

AGAIN I agree with Jack!! I add that the true high speed is much more heat resistant than the "came with the machine " stuff. The semi high speed edge ,especially moulding profiles ,are often burned worthless by the guy making the knife. Yes, even with the cooling fluid running over it. The FIRST piece of moulding can be full of striations. And even when they
don't burn the knife the finish never equals a surface left by real HSS.

[jack forsberg]

Mel

I like the 18% I'v Not tryed these newfangled harder ones so Why mess up a good thing. I to run the cheaper mystery metal Too for short runs. It is was it is. One thing I miss the old high-speed steel router bits I use to grind them in new shapes for a quick one offs or little beads .Sears used to have tons of them You know the ones that didn't even have a bearing. Then there were the full body cutters that were made entirely of high-speed steel and ground to pattern . Love them probably the easiest to keep sharp Of all the full body cutters I have . I got some sash sets and few other Cope and sticks.




AGAIN I agree with Jack!! I add that the true high speed is much more heat resistant than the "came with the machine " stuff. The semi high speed edge ,especially moulding profiles ,are often burned worthless by the guy making the knife. Yes, even with the cooling fluid running over it. The FIRST piece of moulding can be full of striations. And even when they
don't burn the knife the finish never equals a surface left by real HSS.

[Phillip Gregory]

Sorry to necro an old thread, but I recently had to do some research on this as I got a big old but new to me shaper to supplant my router table and "got the opportunity" to address this topic. Nearly all router bits sold in the last 25 years are brazed or solid carbide, and although I've used HSS router bits and and saw blades from the '70s in the past, anything remotely recently has been carbide. Carbide is less sharp but keeps its slightly dull edge for a long time even in glue-heavy manufactured products like MDF and plywood. HSS and T-alloy are sharper initially but dull far more quickly, and are only usable in natural wood. I pick carbide when available but do have an Amana insert shaper head that uses mostly HSS knives and for limited runs, is excellent. I use carbide cutters for things that get more than occasional use.

Takeaway point is that HSS or T-alloy is fine for natural wood and limited use but carbide is better for heavy use and glue-containing materials.

[Wade Lippman]

I give up. what is T alloy. I googled and found it was obscenely expensive, but not what it is.

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

I give up. what is T alloy. I googled and found it was obscenely expensive, but not what it is.

Im guessing its tantung alloy.

[lowell holmes]

I've had a shaper for 25 years and never run anything but carbide cutters. Why would I consider going to steel cutters?

I've never had issues with the carbide.

[Mel Fulks]

On real wood the steel ones just cut slicker, little to no sanding. Tantung also cuts slicker than carbide. I only use carbide on mdf

[Phillip Gregory]

I give up. what is T alloy. I googled and found it was obscenely expensive, but not what it is.

It's tantung, which is an allow of tungsten, cobalt, chromium, and carbon. It's softer than tungsten carbide and can hold a sharper edge than carbide, but harder than HSS.

[Mark Wooden]

And the old style cutters Jack referred to are still available- http://corobcutters.com/ . I've reground more than a few when needing to make just a little bit of a moulding or sticking.
They're good guys, still making a large variety of profiles. Buy from them, they're made in the USA.