Need some quick advice on router vs shaper

[rudy de haas]

I have been looking at various options for getting a solid router set-up to make things like wainscotting panels and not been very happy with the choices that have come up. However, right now there's a guy selling a (he says) nearly new King 351S shaper for far too much but, you know, maybe... it comes with the 1/4" and 1/2" adapters to use router bits, runs on 220V, aand has what I like most: more power than I need. But I've never used a shaper, there's no sliding table, and I don't know eough to know if getting this makes sense. Does it?

[Jim Dwight]

I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

Jim

[julian abram]

I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

Jim

Very well said, don't think there could be much added to what Jim said here. I generally think of a shaper as a tool best suited for a larger volume production shop. I see used shapers often on CL for bargain prices ($500 or so) but for I'd rather have a nice router/router table/lift/fence setup with lots of bits even if it cost a $1,000+. I think most folks find a nice router table setup more flexible for a variety of projects. My 2 cents.

[glenn bradley]

Those home-shop folks that have them will swear by them much like the home-shop folks that have the footprint required for a RAS or a SCMS swear by those tools. Like Jim D, I have made a lot of stuff and never once wished for a shaper. The slow speed makes using router bits on one really sub-optimal compared to a powerful high speed router setup. The thing that puts folks off is the really high price of getting into a precision router table rig. At $300 for a PC 7518 or (my favorite) the Milwaukee 5625 plus a fence and lift, you're getting up there and still have to build your table. You will see a lot of used shapers for less than that initial investment. All that being said I would not give up the precision and versatility of the router format for a shaper. YMMV.

[rudy de haas]

Thank you all.

I will pass on the shaper - and wait for the right router combo to come along.

[Judson Green]

I never in my shop had a shaper but used em tons in shops I worked in and agree with the others that production shops are probably the best place for them. That said I added a small power feeder to my router table and that was the cats pajamas.

Final thought... With a shaper like a router or molder its really all about the tooling (router bits/knives/cutters). If a shaper was being sold with a bunch of cutters it might be worth deeper thought.

[ian maybury]

I've just started to run a Hammer F3 shaper as well in addition to my Incra based router table.

I've actually been blown away by the capability of the shaper, but wouldn't want to get rid of my router table - and agree with most if not all of what has been said above.

I'm no great expert, but the very large difference in size and scale of cutter means that while there is some overlap in capability (and the principles are very similar) they are not really alternatives.

The fundamental is probably the RPM difference and cutter size - it basically means that the shaper must run much larger diameter tooling to deliver an equivalent cutting speed. Which more or less barring very specialised set ups rules out a lot of the sort of detailed small work easily done using small diameter cutters on a router table. Much cheaper tooling and much easier workholding as the guys say contribute to this - as does the much reduced requirement for power feeding. Not incapable of causing a bad accident, but probably quite a bit safer too unless the shaper is hugely well equipped with expensive aftermarket guarding, work holding and stuff.

Against that a well set up half decent shaper can only impress in terms of the surface finish and rate of wood removal it delivers. Much heavier cuts and rates of feed become relatively effortless. There's really no argument on larger section work requiring heavy cuts, and where longer lengths must be processed in a time critical manner.

If I was just gearing up for a project where i had to run off a bunch of very similar profiles by the yard that meant that the versatility of the router would not be required, future broader needs were not really an issue and it wouldn't be necessary to buy too much tooling (the job was to produce say off stock profiles for 2nd fix carpentry - skirting, doors and the like) then i'd go for the shaper every time if i could for the sheer ease with which it spits out the work...

[Tom M King]

For small profiles, like sash parts, I like my router tables because I can set up multiples. For large profiles, like raised panels, I like a shaper MUCH better.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'll preface my comment by saying that I'm a professional….not with a huge production shop by any means, but I do use machinery daily.

I can't imagine having a shop without a shaper. If I were at some point to downsize to a garage shop I would have a shaper, no question about it. It would be second in line only to the table saw. One of the most versatile tools you can own as far as I'm concerned. I certainly understand not every home hobby shop needs one and would never try to persuade someone who wasn't ready. But a good quality shaper is not comparable to a router table anymore than a circular saw is to a cabinet saw. Whether or not you need one is something only you can decide, but if you plan on doing a lot of decent sized profiles in the future, it may be worth a look.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Heidrick]

I like and will continue to have both. One does not replace the other.

[Mike Schuch]

I bought my Walker Turner 3hp 3ph 3/4" spindle shaper for $200. I use it a lot more than I use my router table. I use my handheld routers a lot more than I use my router table. A shaper can not be used for center piercing cuts... where the stock goes over the entire profile of the router bit. But for everything else done on a table I prefer a shaper. Shapers do a much better job with large cutters and big profiles than a router table. I have done cabinet doors on a good router table with a 3hp Porter Cable router... I much prefer to use a shaper. The Pros spend a lot of money on shaper cutters that they use a lot. I have had great luck with Grizzly shaper cutters and find them to be pretty competitively priced to large router bits. I was never able to get an acceptable lock miter joint on a router table. My shaper makes great lock miter joints!

The biggest problem with a shaper is after you get one you will really want a power feeder. A shaper without a power feeder is a very useful flexible machine. The quality of finish cuts go up considerably once you have a power feeder. I had my shaper for 10 years and used it a lot before I scored a good deal on a power feeder... I love the power feeder on my shaper!

[John McClanahan]

Price shaper cutters first, then decide if you really need a shaper.


John

[Erik Christensen]

I am not a pro and faced the same question when outfitting my shop - shaper or router table? Got a lot of good advice from this board when making that decision.

One of the members here with a lot of experience with both said "there is nothing that you can do on a router table that cannot be done with a shaper - but the converse is not true". The biggest "splurge" purchase in my major tool decisions was a powermatic 5 hp shaper with 4 wheel feeder. It is by far my favorite tool - even over my 19" BS. The safety & precision is just amazing - yah it can take a while to setup but once you get it dialed in you just put on the ear muffs and toss wood through it with perfect results. Right now I am fitting up shaker door panels - the inside surface of the panel is flush with the inside of the rails/styles - so if the panel is sized perfectly there is zero gaps on the inside. I cut each panel slightly oversize and sneak up on the fit - assembling after pass to check the gaps between cope/sick rails and inside rails/styles & panel. With the shaper & power feeder using a climb cut the rabbit is perfect even on cross grain & I can shave a 64th off the tongue on an edge with the TS and run back through the shaper to re-do the rabbit. The process is fast & safe with flawless results even for a rookie like me. No way I could get anything close to the same results with a router table.

I agree with Jeff - a shaper is second only to a table saw in necessity & capability.

[Peter Quinn]

A good shaper is vastly superior at every task it shares with a router table, really hard to compare or even explain it if you haven't experienced it. They are not completely parallel choices and can be very complimentary. A shaper is also larger, more expensive to buy and populate with tooling, and more expensive to power. I'm a pro who came to wood working from another career. I started in my home shop on a router table, the first time I used a shaper was a revelation, I never wanted to use the router table again for doors and moldings, at this point I'd rather hang myself with panty hose from the rafters then make one more door on a router table. I love my router table for what it's good at, spinning small bits at high speeds....I leave the heavy lifting to the more capable machine.

That said the choice is really tied to your situation, what you want to make, how fast and how much, how much you enjoy sanding (ie shaper=a lot less sanding re: cleaner cuts, more per inch, power feed), how much space you have, how much you want to spend, and how much time you are willing to invest in learning a new machine. IMO the shaper is actually a vastly more versatile machine, buts it's capacities are not strictly obvious, you have to learn its rules and potential like any machine. I will advise that most shapers make marginal to terrible routers due to lower rpm's, if you buy a shaper you really want to use it as a shaper.

You can certainly do a lot of work with either, which ever you choose work safe and enjoy.

[jack forsberg]

a shaper head for pin knifes makes tooling cheaper than router bits if your looking at tooling cost as a concern . yes you can spend a lot on insert and brazed tooling but you don't need/ have to.

Its not a question of the spindle moulders having to run larger heads because the RPM are lower its more of a matter that the cutting geometry of the tooling is much better because there is room in the head for proper rake angles of the cutting edge /knifes. its router bits that need to run faster for good cuts because there is no material for knife angle geometry in the bit shank. they put shear angle on bits to improve the cut and to deal with the scraping cut low rake of these bits, but this is something not needed in a spindle moulder head as there is plenty of cutter block material supporting the knife at a number a cutting angles . This is why a jointer head is as large as it is to accommodate knifes. So the same size shape in a spindle moulder will cut better than a router bit cut because of cutting geometry afforded by the bigger heads ,and that's a fact. As to running smaller diameters on spindle moulder in the past they used french head spindle. These where spindles with a slot through the middle that held french head steel that was a high carbon that you cut with a file and than heat treat. you only had to grind on side good and let that one end be the cutting circle the other balance, they work more like a scraper when cutting because there have no rake to the knife and it is the router that has replaced this type of work and has improved the work safety in small diameter cutting.

If you use a spindle moulder you will find less work for both the router and dado stack. A very old machine type and a classic.

a french head spindle
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6aKqaWmQZvX6tjddlVXUnF23A6RgVs QZpz3bBXJMbOmHoLEdpdg

[ian maybury]

This genuinely meant - the bottom line i guess is that it as ever in lots of things woodworking comes down the specifics of the situation.

Processing speed/time, messiness of the job, existing equipment (a shaper likes a decent dust system), investment/time to get set up, familiarity/expertise, balance of likely future requirements vs the current job etc.

What can be done on one or the other isn't necessarily the same as what can be done most efficiently on either. I guess if you're prepared to accept varying degrees of inconveniece and/or cost/or time downside in what you are doing then the tasks excluded by either solution become fairly minimal - and the overlap greater. i.e. the sort of thing many of us do when it's a case of making what we have work. Which isn't necessarily quite the same as what we might do given budget and a blank sheet of paper. Or if were are gearing up for only one job, and not terribly concerned about future usefulness of the equipment/the likelihood that we may need to do work less well suited to it….

PS just saw yours now Jack. Those French heads are i think today (in the UK anyway) regarded as a close cousin of a machine gun - but it sure simplified the tooling. I guess in many ways the additional cost of modern shapers is a result of the fairly extensive range of safety equipment the regs require...

[jack forsberg]

This genuinely meant - the bottom line i guess is that it as ever in lots of things woodworking comes down the specifics of the situation.

Processing speed/time, messiness of the job, existing equipment (a shaper likes a decent dust system), investment/time to get set up, familiarity/expertise, balance of likely future requirements vs the current job etc.

What can be done on one or the other isn't necessarily the same as what can be done most efficiently on either. I guess if you're prepared to accept varying degrees of inconveniece and/or cost/or time downside in what you are doing then the tasks excluded by either solution become fairly minimal - and the overlap greater. i.e. the sort of thing many of us do when it's a case of making what we have work. Which isn't necessarily quite the same as what we might do given budget and a blank sheet of paper. Or if were are gearing up for only one job, and not terribly concerned about future usefulness of the equipment/the likelihood that we may need to do work less well suited to it….

PS just saw yours now Jack. Those French heads are i think today (in the UK anyway) regarded as a close cousin of a machine gun - but it sure simplified the tooling. I guess in many ways the additional cost of modern shapers is a result of the fairly extensive range of safety equipment the regs require...

I believe they were band as of the early 80s in the UK and it is illegal for machinery maker to sale them. This is why you don't see much on them any more. The steel is hard to find now and if HSS is used(often was out of ignorance) they would through a knife and did if they reach too far from the spindle. you could get spindle up to 2" round down to 3/4. It was good practice to hog out most the material before they were used. They sure don't meet Puwer98 regs for chip limiting:eek:. Wadkin made a boat load of these spindles for there intire range even the little BRS spindle moulder.

here is a catalog cut of the tooling room at Wadkin(Green lane works) in the early 50s and you can see the guy making cleaning the slot in a french spindle for the EQ on the left. if you look in the bottom left hand corner you will see how the made cutter with slots in the top to bolt a knife in the spindles for smaller radis work.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/sc000134a9.jpg

[lowell holmes]

There are shapers and there are SHAPERS , if you get my meaning.

I have a small Rockwell shaper from the 70's. The table is 16"x 18". It is 1/2 hp and has a 1/2" diameter shaft.
With sleeves, it will swing a 3/4" bit. I have made block paneling, stile and rail entrance doors, door frames . . . .
It is about 40 years old.

I must tell you, shaping a 1 3/4"X 5 1/2"X 82" VG fir stile to shape the coped edge, is a terrifying experience if you are hand feeding the stock.

I use it occaisonally, but I have a more relaxed comfort level with a 2hp router.

If your running smaller boards on the shaper, it is not as scary.

I think if you are going to run big heavy boards, a big router (not on a table) is easier. You need one big enough to turn the bits.

If you could find someone with a shaper and observe them in operation, you will be able make your mind up.

[Sam Murdoch]

The OP has made his decision but to add to the discussion - if I had to choose (assuming I already own a few good and appropriate routers) between buying and setting up a router table system with a lift and buying a good used shaper for $ 500.00 that accommodates 1/2" and 1/4" bits/cutters, I would opt for the shaper. The advantages of either have been pretty well discussed above but my inclination in favor of the shaper in this case is for the extra (smoother) power, versatility of its capacity with small and larger bits and the price compared to a good router lift set up. I would still need to own a few hand held routers but the small shop shaper (if you have the room) is a great asset.

[rudy de haas]

++Thanks everyone -

I passed on the shaper in large part because comments here reinforced what I thought: the shaper is better for paid production work, the router table better for me because I don't value my time on this and will mostly be doing small batches - you know: ten of these, 12 of those, etc

In addition the machine I was looking at is a King 351S - which probably meant that I'd have to go buy a fence upgrade too. Bottom line: still looking for a good deal on a router and table combo and hoping not to get forced, by project timelines (i.e. my wife), to spend big on the Excalibur one I like from general international.

[roger wiegand]

I have both (Shaper is a 3 hp Delta of 1970's vintage) and I find that I've transitioned over time such that I now use the shaper 90% of the time in preference to the router table-- the final push was the acquisition of a stock feeder. There has been a learning curve in that progression. Nothing I do counts as "production", I just find the shaper increasingly easier to set up and find that I get a uniformly better finish from it. I don't miss the burned surfaces on my maple and cherry parts.

[Judson Green]

In a shop I used to work in we had something similar but with two knives that hopefully were balanced and sat in a dovetailed way that got squeezed, sometimes with teeth but mostly not. You know what I'm describing Jack?

Found a picture, like the one on the right but the arbor but would do the squeezing, iirc.

313659

Made it somewhat easy to grind your own knives. The guy I worked for would grind his own balance em on a triple beam scale. He had/has tons of tooling, but has thrown a few too.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Jack. A nice photo. You know the score on the safety issues.

I know a couple of English toolmaking guys that served their time building press tools for the car industry around then - and worked on into the 70s before moving over here. The term 'fitter' was common usage for a mechanic over here until quite recently, you can see why...

[jack forsberg]

You can still get lock edge collar steel and really it's not necessary to run the plane collars in fact the euro pin lock knives pretty much killed using Collars for. In shop custom grind. In the right hands I don't find them The lock edge dangerous and the cutting geometries is wicked they actually evacuate the chips very Efficiently and the chips take the heat away from the cutter tip you see there's no chipbreaker





In a shop I used to work in we had something similar but with two knives that hopefully were balanced and sat in a dovetailed way that got squeezed, sometimes with teeth but mostly not. You know what I'm describing Jack?

Found a picture, like the one on the right but the arbor but would do the squeezing, iirc.

313659

Made it somewhat easy to grind your own knives. The guy I worked for would grind his own balance em on a triple beam scale. He had/has tons of tooling, but has thrown a few too.

[jack forsberg]

Hi Ian
My buddy is a tool and die guy(that's what we call the press and punch machinists) very high skill set these tradesmen. I had him make me up some shoes for the 26" wadkin RM planer moulder in 4140. these removable plates in the head were for square head tooling back in the day. May run some of it too but for curves i thought it would be nice to have index tooling for ease of set up and i don't have to change the spindle moulder set up that can share the same profile.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead005.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/rmhead005.jpg.html)



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head006_zpse0a4ab9d.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/head006_zpse0a4ab9d.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head009_zps9ee56735.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/head009_zps9ee56735.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head003_zpsce131e2d.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/head003_zpsce131e2d.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head015_zps800a11cd.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/head015_zps800a11cd.jpg.html)

i ground those knifes from blanks for some historic work.free hand by eye. test cut


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lB21cGbugY


Anyway i don't want to derail this thread for those that like drop on cutters sharp from the box:cool:



Thanks Jack. A nice photo. You know the score on the safety issues.

I know a couple of English toolmaking guys that served their time building press tools for the car industry around then - and worked on into the 70s before moving over here. The term 'fitter' was common usage for a mechanic over here until quite recently, you can see why...

[Mel Fulks]

Used them for decades and hand ground the knives. I've used the notched and the smooth , prefer smooth. More versatile
in several ways,especially since you can choose the ball bearing location. I don't agree they are dangerous and have
never thrown a knife. They no longer make the smooth ,but if you buy two sets ....you can make your own smooth set. Most problems are caused by using two knives from different bars of steel; one knife will be a little wider than the other and thus not held well. The other mistake is over tightening since the collars are made of soft
steel and will be permanently distorted. When using them as an employee you have to be willing to demand that incompetents be prohibited from using them; and willing to refuse to use any damaged knives or collars. Main rule is after you position the knives in collars ,tighten nut with YOUR FINGERS. Then try to slide the knives,if one moves then something is wrong. Fix it. Then tighten with a wrench a little on the short side. You should not be making any marks in collars.

[jack forsberg]

Mel i like the plan with the pin and a notch in the knife just for those times:o. Its the tall ones for railing that as you say you do not want to over tighten. still i don't use them as the steel is to closely for big stuff. Wadkin made one with the bottom collar was the rub bearing. Woodwork tools works sale the plain collar steel but you can use the lock edge in plain. Collars need to be very clean i would toss anything knackered. the lock edge is nicer to set up with the setting screws i think but how hard are 2 knifes. I have seen in old tooling catalogs with two types of plan collars one is the 60 deg slot and the other is square slot flat bottom. I like the 60 deg for the aliening and any thickness steel . Thanks Mel for the old time tooling talk.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSa3W0z_VUY3ET7DLRjrCSEz3AaoLm1j 5RpJosgs99hBYVE0dIEUQ

[Mel Fulks]

"Old time" ?! How can something with CUTTING EDGE technology be "old time" ?! I also like the corg heads for shaper .
But using a bearing can be a problem since knives can only move a whole notch. I posted before you were here about getting two custom made bearings. By having them plus a standard 4 and 1/2 bearing I can get bearing position off no more than 1/64 th. Saves winding tape around bearing.

[Allan Speers]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

[lowell holmes]

I don't have any issues with running smaller pieces. I have (home made) a sled that will hold the work piece and keep my hands safe. It's the big pieces in making a door that is difficult for me. I have push sticks that will hold the piece against the fence.

[Peter Quinn]

Somebody already does. http://www.cronsrud.com/inverted_routers.html File these under "Not Cheap" I think there is an answer to your question....almost nobody makes such a machine because almost nobody would buy one at the necessary price point. What would be the point of a very expensive ultimate router table whose cutter geometry is still limited to that of router bits? At that point you use a shaper that spins large cutters with chip clearance. You can put 2000# and 10hp behind a router, but the weak point is still the 1/2" shank. I guess you could go with 3/4" shank CNC bits, but at some point you need power feed.....that the point where you get a shaper.

[Joe Calhoon]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

Here is a high end router system
http://ruwi.de/en/products/
http://ruwi.de/
Try the second link if the first does not open. Click on language.
They must sell, I see the company at all the European shows.

[Mike Cutler]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

Allan
It would be pretty easy to make one of these from a shaper. Change the speed via the pulleys (5:1-6:1), add a speed controller (VFD) and off you would go.


In this thread, unless I missed it, there is one thing a shaper does that a table mounted router cannot do, and that is reverse direction. When I did piece work repair for the boat yards many years ago, I used that feature somewhat often. Reversing the cutter head to cut with the grain on teak and mahogany made the repair piece much nicer. Less hand work after.

[Rod Sheridan]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

They do, Felder have a 17,000 RPM spindle available for their shapers............Rod.

[Jeff Ramsey]

I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

Jim

i have both a router table with a large selection of bits, and a rather beefy Delta shaper. Guess which machine setup sits idle the most?

[ian maybury]

A shortie back to Mel and Jack - not to hijack the thread.

That's beautiful work Jack. Right down to the relieved nuts. The terminology is a little different, but my guy was time served press tool/tool and die man too. He trained with and worked for many years for a big toolmaking operation in High Wycombe UK which was the centre of the then industry there. He was working as a freelance tool design and supply guy here in Ireland by the time i met him. Much of the industry has gone to the east now, although i gather with mixed results.

I spent several years as a general machinist in a jobbing shop before going back to college, and quite a bit later on managed a large toolroom for several years supporting a large injection moulding operation. I'm not a toolmaker as such, but really miss having free access to machine tools these days. When you have even basic turning and milling capability you look at machines and equipment hrough a totally different lens. I hadn't seen a jointer set up to cut profiles before, i guess it'd need a very good quality machine so it was possible to get quickly and reliably back to table height settings.

The issue with a lot of stuff that works very well is perhaps that it requires the user to have some cop on. We're not going to solve the issue here, but safety while necessary as a result has a tendency to head off down a dumbing down road - which can be self defeating since people will probably just switch off and in doing so raise the risk level to what they are comfortable with anyway. Against that when it's a case of using stuff continuously over many years it's very easy to get caught, and sometimes all it takes is a moment of inattention...

[ian maybury]

Overhead routers tend to be pretty widely used in the plastics fabrication industry for some reason Joe. They are definitely out there...

[Jeff Ramsey]

The biggest problem with a shaper is after you get one you will really want a power feeder. A shaper without a power feeder is a very useful flexible machine. The quality of finish cuts go up considerably once you have a power feeder. I had my shaper for 10 years and used it a lot before I scored a good deal on a power feeder... I love the power feeder on my shaper!

Mike, you meant a shaper *with* a power feeder right?

[jack forsberg]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.


The Carter is probably one of the oldest hand held router you'll find in the flesh . The Carter was allegedly put on sale during WWI, although the company became part of Stanley in 1929 . Bill Hylton publish a couple of photos of the Carter router .


http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot498.shtml


The pin routers often come up for $150 at auction and there were thousands made. Just get one with good bearings as it not worth it to replace them($1000 just for the bearings) with so many good one out there. The production direct drive overhead router (capable of 16 to 18,000 rpm) appeared in the mid to late 1920s they depended on a high frequency electric motor with frequency changer (pre VFD motor speed control)and ball bearings of special oil lube systems with ABEC 7 precision to work, made only for industry and not the small furniture shop in the very early days. The Wadkin LS was made from about 1929/ 30 until the 80s, not Wadkin's earliest high frequency electric router but a main for Wadkin who were very innovative in early high speed spindles with some having numeral control by the mid 40s.






http://www.wadkin.com/uploads/images/products/LS-thumb.jpg




Devices called recessors capable of 6,000 rpm or so and working in a similar way were available from somewhere in the mid to late 19th Century. They seem to have been designed for pattern shops to start with and became more popular with the introduction of hardboard and plywood's in the late 19th century as a machine to pierce openings in door panels, etc. They look a bit like a large drill press but generally have an X-Y compound table, sometimes with (table) rotation to allow them to cut arcs and they have side-thrust bearings in the quill/head stock assembly. Wadkin, of course, made the grand-daddy of them all, the pattern miller, as it's very first product in 1907.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/WadkinPatternMillingWPandWS01_zps1212b4cc.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/WadkinPatternMillingWPandWS02_zps046ad744.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/WadkinPatternMillingWPandWS03_zps32bcf745.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_bebpRUm5I

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Ian. I think it's good that safety is always ok to wedge in here. As to safety ,there is a long list of warnings that comes with the shaper collars with wisdom like "be careful", "don't over tighten, we can't tell you how tight,ask somebody
who knows what they are doing" I once talked by phone with the owner of a company that made collars . Went through a list of set up procedures and asked why their directions were so lousy. He told me he agreed with my list but the lawyers
told them to not give specific instructions as it could make his company more liable! I would call getting in trouble for giving good safety info problematic. Once when we bought two sets of the lock edge collars I checked them before
using. One was defective! The holes for the screw mechanisms had been drilled to high,the knives were actually lifting
knives clear of the smooth contact service. When I called the company the guy who answered yelled at me that I must be
doing something wrong and they would not replace something that I had ruined! Sent them back and they were replaced. Owner told me they had shipped a defective set up piece! Only my careful checking had prevented me from causing more
damage. This was way back when there was more than one mfg and I won't name here which one it was.

[jack forsberg]

A shortie back to Mel and Jack - not to hijack the thread.

That's beautiful work Jack. Right down to the relieved nuts. The terminology is a little different, but my guy was time served press tool/tool and die man too. He trained with and worked for many years for a big toolmaking operation in High Wycombe UK which was the centre of the then industry there. He was working as a freelance tool design and supply guy here in Ireland by the time i met him. Much of the industry has gone to the east now, although i gather with mixed results.

I spent several years as a general machinist in a jobbing shop before going back to college, and quite a bit later on managed a large toolroom for several years supporting a large injection moulding operation. I'm not a toolmaker as such, but really miss having free access to machine tools these days. When you have even basic turning and milling capability you look at machines and equipment hrough a totally different lens. I hadn't seen a jointer set up to cut profiles before, i guess it'd need a very good quality machine so it was possible to get quickly and reliably back to table height settings.

The issue with a lot of stuff that works very well is perhaps that it requires the user to have some cop on. We're not going to solve the issue here, but safety while necessary as a result has a tendency to head off down a dumbing down road - which can be self defeating since people will probably just switch off and in doing so raise the risk level to what they are comfortable with anyway. Against that when it's a case of using stuff continuously over many years it's very easy to get caught, and sometimes all it takes is a moment of inattention...


I will admit the video is dodgy and was for show and its not how i would use it. The machine is an Under Over and so the moulding can be run under the cutter block with power rollers and this is how i use it. I would use a power feeder up top with a Shaw guard. you can see the holes in the fence for that . Here in Canada we are not under the restrictions of the UK for chip limiting tooling and i am the only one that run the older kit in the shop. I will not run a machine someone else set up.

[jack forsberg]

Mel do you like the collars with bolts? i don't have any but they must be better for set up in a stand. I have not use collars for 20 years and have gone to pin.

[Mel Fulks]

I THINK they are all sold with bolts now. Have used them where a shop had them in use for maybe one frequently used
standard. My guess is mfgs thought they could sell more if shops would use them as dedicated tooling. But who could afford that? Never used them in a set up I made. I can't see any safety advantage. Guess if someone is too weak to use spindle wrench to ruin the collars......they can use a ratchet!

[ian maybury]

:) Now that is a a..a..a..a…. recessor. I'd no idea stuff like that even existed. The clamps holding the work down look very light in comparison though...

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, I agree Ian. And all that stuff with its old fashioned ad copy and guy in doctor suit seems kind of like some kind of steam punk lampoon. But we might be looking at the "entry level " model.

[Susumu Mori]

Uhhh, Jeff, which one is idling? I'm curious.

[jack forsberg]

Yeah, I agree Ian. And all that stuff with its old fashioned ad copy and guy in doctor suit seems kind of like some kind of steam punk lampoon. But we might be looking at the "entry level " model.

Mel

The Wadkin Pattern miller i showed are for wood pattern making but Wadkin did make a massave 40 ton one for building train casting for metal.

http://www.kotiverstas.com/keskustelu/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14616.0;attach=277 33


Its interesting that My Robinson spindle moulder late 40s (top speed 6500 rpm) did come with a router collect special order back in the 40s so if it did not work well they were not the wiser. you could get fixtures for housed stringers and this was one of the main uses.


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/UK%20Workshop%20Images/StairHousingJigforSpindles.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/Real_Scrit/media/UK%20Workshop%20Images/StairHousingJigforSpindles.jpg.html)


you could do dove tails too.
https://media.joomeo.com/large/543a9bfe77fc1.jpg


Later the Wadkin UX and UR as well as the LS Pin Rotors were use and fixtures made to do stringers faster. you can see the flip up finger in the nose cut to index the rise and run

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/UK%20Workshop%20Images/StairHousingontheLQRecessor.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/Real_Scrit/media/UK%20Workshop%20Images/StairHousingontheLQRecessor.jpg.html)


Now of course there has to be a grand daddy of housed stringer machines and that too is from the UK the John Pickles ST. The Pickles appeared in catalogs in the 30s to mill 2 stringer top and bottom in pairs one go with 2 router heads of 4 hp each so you see high speed routers have made it one to a fair bit of kit.


https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61431&d=1368878764




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDchkcbUjVg

later these became fully automatic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQKzg6aueWg

[rudy de haas]

Well.. I hate being wrong, but I was and I'm glad the people on this forum corrected me. I was sure the shaper was an over-kill idea and so passed on the offer triggering my question after reading the first few comments. As it turns out, however, subsequent comments make the case for the shaper look compelling and I'm therefore dropping any ambitions toward buying or building a router cabinet in favor of shopping for a shaper.

The convincers were:

1 - arithmetic: it turns out that the cutting edge on a 2.5" diameter shaper head running at 8000 RPM hits the wood at about a 1,000 feet/minutefaster than a 1/2" router bit at 30,000 RPM. (ft/sec= 2 x pi x radius in inches) x RPM/12 ;

2 - several people pointed out that a shaper will do things a router won't, but a router generally won't do all the things a shaper will; and,

3 - I tried using a friend's General International "excalibur" router table with a freud 3.25 HP router (combined = $1,300 Canabucks at list) and another guy's king 350 (same as Grizzly 1026) shaper. There's no comparison: the shaper is easier to set up, faster to use, and a lot quieter.

So thanks, everyone.

[Peter Quinn]

Well.. I hate being wrong, but I was and I'm glad the people on this forum corrected me. I was sure the shaper was an over-kill idea and so passed on the offer triggering my question after reading the first few comments. As it turns out, however, subsequent comments make the case for the shaper look compelling and I'm therefore dropping any ambitions toward buying or building a router cabinet in favor of shopping for a shaper.

The convincers were:

1 - arithmetic: it turns out that the cutting edge on a 2.5" diameter shaper head running at 8000 RPM hits the wood at about a 1,000 feet/second faster than a 1/2" router bit at 30,000 RPM. (ft/sec= 2 x pi x radius in inches) x RPM/12 ;

2 - several people pointed out that a shaper will do things a router won't, but a router generally won't do all the things a shaper will; and,

3 - I tried using a friend's General International "excalibur" router table with a freud 3.25 HP router (combined = $1,300 Canabucks at list) and another guy's king 350 (same as Grizzly 1026) shaper. There's no comparison: the shaper is easier to set up, faster to use, and a lot quieter.

So thanks, everyone.

welcome to the light! Did I mention they are quieter too? It is nice to have both, but everything I do with my router lift I could do with a small router screwed to a sheet of plywood, just not as convienent. Good luck shopping and work safe!

[ian maybury]

:) A shaper is a bit of an eye opener seen in action for the first time Rudy. Just in case - be careful that you don't have some 'must do' job that happens to be one of the relatively few that either can't be or are not conveniently done on a shaper...

[Mike Heidrick]

Hmm, A small 3hp asian shaper could be a great machine to bolt a cast iron router table too. Two machines in one base. Never done it but would be a cool setup.

[Jim Dwight]

No problem with anybody wanting a shaper. I'm not sure what it will do that a router in a router table will not but I wouldn't be surprised if there are things. But I don't think a shaper can cut dados in a board like a router table can. And there is no way a shaper can become a hand held tool. In a big enough shop there would be a place for both. In my little shop, I plan to just keep using my router table. Even though I've seen bits, I don't think a router table would be good at making entry doors. That's more of a shaper thing to me. If I wanted to make one, I would use applied molding (possibly made on the router table). Adapting to the tools I have and like to use is part of the fun. I made interior doors this way and was happy with the result. I don't think I could have made the molding on a shaper.

I don't like the noisiness of routers but I don't count much for that because a shaper isn't quiet enough to use without hearing protection. With the muffs on, either is OK. Seems like every power tool in my shop needs me to put on the muffs except drills.

[Mike Cutler]

Jim

Each person has different needs and criteria for choosing their machines. If a router table works for you, and it works for many, many people including myself, than stick with it.
In an earlier post I pointed out that one thing a shaper table does that a router does not, is have the ability to reverse the direction of the bit rotation. If a person is just making linear moulding, door and window parts, etc, where the material typically moves right to left in a straight line, and this is the operation that many people associate a shaper with doing, then a router in a table will replicate that function on a smaller scale. It does a lot more though.
If you use a shaper to do template work , that is where the ability to spin the bit in the opposite direction,or change the bearing guide on the cutter head from top to bottom in a minute or so comes in very handy. You will always be cutting with the grain and a single template is that is necessary. Sometimes it takes right and left hand cutter sets, sometimes not.
Power and the ability to reverse the rotation are some key differences in my opinion.

[jack forsberg]

No problem with anybody wanting a shaper. I'm not sure what it will do that a router in a router table will not but I wouldn't be surprised if there are things.



with top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"

http://www.owwm.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sagar-corner-lock-attachment-300x214.jpg

http://www.owwm.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sagar-9.jpg




http://www.owwm.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sagar-12.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZPokiLpw34

[Peter Quinn]

Today I was making casing for an arched top transom out of some fairly straight grained flat sawn sapele, 1" thick. It's a 60" length of a segment with around. 90" radius, so it rises around 4" from ends to middle. Not a harsh curve to trim to pattern, on a router table I'd have to cut real close to the line, and worry that the sapele might spring outside of my template lines, and worry that even a very sharp 1 1/8" D pattern bit would rip off the ends on the down hill side, possibly climb cut, or switch bits and run the template down.....see where I'm going with this? Sure, it can be done successfully, takes a little time, experience, careful consideration. I used a shaper, 5" 4 knife insert carbide head with shear....cut a heavy 1/8 over the line to allow for the spring which did happen, wound up taking off almost 1/4" at the long side.....shaper did it in one pass, straight through, cut like butter, smooth like glass. Sanding took maybe 2 minutes? It's about what you do, how much of it, what the standards are and how long you want it to take. Hobby shop or pro , each equation is different but the variables are the same.

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=jack forsberg;2420652]with top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"
QUOTE]



And when the Wadkin is not up to the task you can call in the big German:)

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[jack forsberg]

[QUOTE=jack forsberg;2420652]with top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"
QUOTE]



And when the Wadkin is not up to the task you can call in the big German:)

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Look at that the Englishman And Germans are getting along. Part of your uk tour joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Jack, Yes from a UK shop. It was good to see those shops, they are quite different from all the shops I have toured in the EU.

The EQ spindle moulder is a solid machine. I was able to run it and play with the controls a bit. Fitted with some Aigner gear and modern tooling it is usable in a pro shop. They use it for setups in play for a while and the T27 for one off and joinery setups.

In another German shop I came across a Martin T 25 with a side mount slider and the swing out tenon saw. First time to see one of these in the wild. Picture does not show the saw very well.
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