Recommendation for a newbie?

[Clay Clark]

Hi there everyone. I am currently outsourcing production of my "Wood Murals" of race tracks that I sell. I am wanting to buy my own laser soon so that I can start producing them in-house. The sizes of the Murals are 17"x11" for the smaller size, and 24"x16" for the larger size. Can anyone recommend a laser that would work for my needs? Obviously I'd like to get a machine that is of good quality, but I don't need anything that is overly expensive.

The wood I am using is a 1/4" thick UV Coated Birch. The operator who is making them for me currently is then using some sort of black powder which she sprinkles over the wood to make the black contrast super dark.

I have attached a few pictures of the product for you guys. Thank you so much in advance!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, we have extensive CNC Router expertise, but very little Laser expertise. Software / File concerns should not play in to your recommendation, as I am confident that this will not be a big hurdle for us.

313524313525313526

[Robert Tepper]

Hello Clay and Welcome to SMC.

I have a Trotec Rayjet 300, it has 80 watts and a 17 x 29" table. IMHO I would recommend a Speedy 300 with at least 80 watts of power. The big three USA machine manufacturers all work well, the choice is one to investigate before you make your purchase. I am sure others will make recommendations. I use Corel X7 and I am very happy with it. Several on here use Adobe. If you are not familiar with either of the software's, look for a download trial version before laying out money on the actual program.
Best of luck with you investment.

Robert

[Clay Clark]

Thanks for your post, Robert. We use Adobe Illustrator.

[Clay Clark]

I did a little bit of research, by the 3 manufacturers in the USA, do you mean Epilog, Trotec, ad Universal?

[Wilbur Harris]

Here's the deal - USA lasers cost much more than a Chinese laser. They're better lasers! On the other hand, if that's all you want to do, a Chinese laser would do it a ton cheaper. Thing is, you'll come up with something else and a Chinese laser might not be the best. Your call indeed!

The Trotec laser at work just broke and they're talking 5K to get it fixed. BUT, it's been a good one! I paid 7K to get a Chinese laser that I had trouble getting in the house...in fact...I'm on "cold taters" for buying something that large. I've made my wife a few items but she seems unimpressed at the moment. I'm sure getting tired of cooking and eating from this card table in the kitchen. Should have measured closer....

[Rich Harman]

There is no way I would want to do many of those on a Chinese laser. That's a lot of rastering area to cover. I would want the absolute fastest machine - Trotec.

If you are just cutting/vectoring a mainstream machine is a waste of money (in my opinion), but if you are doing a lot of engraving, go western.

[Clay Clark]

Realy appreciating all the replies. I'm going to go ahead and nip the Chinese thing in the bud right now. I would like to have a USA based machine :)

[Rich Harman]

I'm going to go ahead and nip the Chinese thing in the bud right now. I would like to have a USA based machine :)

That's too bad, Trotec is top of the line. They are made in Austria.

[Clay Clark]

That's too bad, Trotec is top of the line. They are made in Austria.
You knew what I meant :)

*without a major USA based operation with support

[Rich Harman]

You knew what I meant :)

*without a major USA based operation with support

Ah, so a Rabbit laser is still in the running??? Hey I made a pun!

Nothing wrong with only looking at USA made machines, there is enough outsourcing as it is...

[Mike Null]

For what it's worth, the Trotec tubes are the latest in technology and made in the USA. http://iradionlaser.com/

[Scott Shepherd]

Here's the deal - USA lasers cost much more than a Chinese laser. They're better lasers! On the other hand, if that's all you want to do, a Chinese laser would do it a ton cheaper.

I think your math is incorrect in that analysis. You are totally correct, the Chinese machine costs a lot less that Western lasers. However, the Chinese laser would not do that job a ton cheaper. It would cost you double the time to make them on a Chinese machine with that much engraving. If your time to run doubles, your profit goes in half. So you'd make 1/2 the money you'd be making with a faster machine. Do you do enough to justify that extra expense to get the cycle time down? I have no idea. But the initial cost up front might be cheaper on the Chinese, but the run time is also going to be longer.

That would also allow for someone with a faster machine to undercut your pricing and shut you down completely if they wanted to.

For what it's worth, that would be a great job to direct UV print, rather than laser engrave.

[Tim Bateson]

...using some sort of black powder which she sprinkles over the wood to make the black contrast super dark...

Do they re-laser or bake after the powder?

[Clay Clark]

Do they re-laser or bake after the powder?
I believe she runs it again after the powder

[Kev Williams]

Gotta play devil's advocate here...

I'm not understanding how an 80w $35000 Trotec that *may* engrave wood twice as fast as my 80w $4800 Triumph, is a better bargain? If you want any depth at all, I seriously doubt the Trotec will be anywhere close to twice as fast. Superficial, yes, but if you want an 1/8" deep cut, you can only put down an 80w beam so fast to get that done. And while the Trotec will likely be faster, I doubt 2x as fast will happen. I've already proven this to myself with my own machines (my Triumph will engrave wood 3/16" deep more than 3x as fast as my 40w Synrad LS900)

Another factor- I can run FOUR of those 24x16's at one time in my Triumph, vs ONE in the Trotec. This works very well in my situation because I have to keep as many of my 13 machines busy as possible every day. One machine making money running for an hour gives me time to get another machine making money. This may not work if you have one employee per machine. I don't have that luxury. My BIL runs the C2000 and the little ULS laser. Everything else, I do. For me, more machines makes more sense than less but FASTER machines. If you're a one-man-show and want more productivity and have the space, buy a second smaller Chinese machine to run other jobs while the big one is running. And the two machines together will barely cost 1/3 the price of the Trotec.

Finally, as mentioned above, the broken Trotec will cost $5 large to fix. I can replace my whole Triumph for that--

Sorry to sound argumentative, but I've been engraving for 41 years, and have been using lasers for 13 years. As much as I would love a Trotec, I'll never get one because for my needs, it would be a waste of my money. Your needs may vary. But-- the fastest doesn't always win the race...
;)

[Bert Kemp]

I'd have to agree somewhat with Kev, ? for the OP is this a full time production business is speed a real factor here , How many of these maps do you make a day , a week a month. If your doing 10 or 20 a week a decent Rabbit , or Boss might be perfect for you at 6 or 7 k vs 20 or 25 K You could by a large bed Chinese machine from Rabbit USA and put 3 or 4 of those maps in at a time. Rabbit has good USA based support and their one of the better Imports.I really all depends on how much you have to do how fast you have to do it. If your business can support a 30 K machine and thats what you want then by all mean, but if your machine is only making a few hundred a week well hey do the math. a Rabbit RL 6040 would work for you and have it up graded to 60 watts or you could go a littler bigger bed and get 80 watts. would be a little faster. JMHO

[Bill George]

Here's the deal - USA lasers cost much more than a Chinese laser. They're better lasers! On the other hand, if that's all you want to do, a Chinese laser would do it a ton cheaper. Thing is, you'll come up with something else and a Chinese laser might not be the best. Your call indeed!

The Trotec laser at work just broke and they're talking 5K to get it fixed. BUT, it's been a good one! I paid 7K to get a Chinese laser that I had trouble getting in the house...in fact...I'm on "cold taters" for buying something that large. I've made my wife a few items but she seems unimpressed at the moment. I'm sure getting tired of cooking and eating from this card table in the kitchen. Should have measured closer....

You know Wilbur some taller kitchen chairs and larger table cloth and you could be eating off the Laser.

[Scott Shepherd]

Gotta play devil's advocate here...

I'm not understanding how an 80w $35000 Trotec that *may* engrave wood twice as fast as my 80w $4800 Triumph, is a better bargain?

Three things, Trotec's don't cost $35,000, I doubt that it was $4,800 to your door, and where's it $5,000 to fix a Trotec (which has a 3 year warranty on it)?

I still stand by my comment, this is a MUCH better UV print job than a laser job.

[Samuel Espy]

Makes sense Bill, but I am not sure what the laser settings are to warm the cold taters.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I have all 3 of the different families of lasers,
Western made
Chinese made
Japanese made

For engraving go Western or Japanese (EXPENSIVE), for cutting go Chinese or Japanese.

Japanese machine tend to be huge industrials that will do everything but cost more than the average house to buy so for engraving middle of the road prices are good (Trotech I'd say as I don't like Epilog or ULS machines)

I agree with Scotty, that's not the best type of job for a laser.

cheers

Dave

[Ross Moshinsky]

Three things, Trotec's don't cost $35,000, I doubt that it was $4,800 to your door, and where's it $5,000 to fix a Trotec (which has a 3 year warranty on it)?

I still stand by my comment, this is a MUCH better UV print job than a laser job.

I'd also at least talk/look at screen printing as well. People have been screen printing on wood for a long time.

As for what laser to pick: Do a test. Send out a piece of material to 4 people. Chinese, Epilog, ULS, and Trotec. See what you get back as far as time to do the job and quality.

I'd only look at Chinese lasers if I had the floor space and man power to run 2-3 at a time. If you can get 3 Chinese machines into your facility, then you can probably match or do better than the output of the Trotec. Assuming an average cost of $7500 per laser (including everything), you're looking about the same investment too. One thing to think about is the cost per sq foot. Assuming each laser takes up about 20 sq ft, how much will it cost to take up that extra space? You'll have to make the final decision that works best for you. If you are buying a mainstream machine, I would really look at the Trotec because it will benefit you over the Epilog or ULS. I'd also strongly recommend you look at other methods to produce your product as 30-40 minutes per piece is too much time when there are other options that will give you something in less than half.

[John Frazee]

I bought a Chinese laser from Brightstar Lasers back in 2007 I think it was. I didn't know it at the time but I think I was one of their first customers. They were trying different shipping companies and my laser was lost by a trucking company and nobody could tell me where it was. I was prematurely upset and then the guy that did my install was not so great as well. The owner ended up doing all the installs and customer service himself to make sure his business would succeed. I posted some negative things here that I wish were gone. I had to replace the tube after several years. They sold me a tube and power supply for about $650.00. Other than that the machine has been flawless. I would buy another from him before buying any other brand.

[Clay Clark]

I still stand by my comment, this is a MUCH better UV print job than a laser job.

Hey Scott, can I comment on this and ask you to give your input?

This product is more of an "art" piece. Race fans hang it on their wall with pride. Some of that pride comes from the respect for engineering and technology that goes in to race cars, and that engineering & technology is part of the product as it was made with a Robot.

Also, the look & feel of a laser product is, in my opinion, far superior to a UV Printed product. This isn't supposed to be a Poster.

Maybe what you are calling a UV printer is different than the flatbed UV Ink printers I've ran in the past to print signage. Is what you are talking about something different?

--------

To answer someone else's question, no, Speed isn't going to be a thing for me. I am not going to be pumping out hundreds of these things per week or anything. Getting a good dark burn to create contrast is what is most important to me.

--------

As to everyone else who has replied, thank you so much. You've given me a lot to consider.

[Art Mann]

I don't know anything about lasers (yet) but I think your product is a great one. I can see how it would be very appealing to race fans.

[Bill George]

Gotta play devil's advocate here...

I'm not understanding how an 80w $35000 Trotec that *may* engrave wood twice as fast as my 80w $4800 Triumph, is a better bargain? If you want any depth at all, I seriously doubt the Trotec will be anywhere close to twice as fast. Superficial, yes, but if you want an 1/8" deep cut, you can only put down an 80w beam so fast to get that done. And while the Trotec will likely be faster, I doubt 2x as fast will happen. I've already proven this to myself with my own machines (my Triumph will engrave wood 3/16" deep more than 3x as fast as my 40w Synrad LS900)

Finally, as mentioned above, the broken Trotec will cost $5 large to fix. I can replace my whole Triumph for that--

Sorry to sound argumentative, but I've been engraving for 41 years, and have been using lasers for 13 years. As much as I would love a Trotec, I'll never get one because for my needs, it would be a waste of my money. Your needs may vary. But-- the fastest doesn't always win the race...
;)

Good point Kev, if it takes an 80 watt machine running at x speed to do the job, to double the speed you would need to double the wattage. or am I wrong? Granted on the RF machines you can vary other factors besides wattage and speed but still the wattage would need increased to cope with the speed increase.

I think where the Trotec would shine is doing lots of raster engraving of smaller items, and it was your only machine.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Do you know what type of laser the lady is using and how long it takes her on average to run the job? Knowing what type of machine she is using could help you with your decision.

[Clay Clark]

Mike, I do not know what she is using, but I can ask.

I've seen a few people assuming I'm using Raster images. My files are all fully vectorized. (Just in case this helps add to the discussion)

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

People are talking about raster engraving. Many of us work with vector images, yet for a project like yours we would raster engrave the text & track while we vector cut the shapes we need.

[Scott Shepherd]

Hey Scott, can I comment on this and ask you to give your input?

This product is more of an "art" piece. Race fans hang it on their wall with pride. Some of that pride comes from the respect for engineering and technology that goes in to race cars, and that engineering & technology is part of the product as it was made with a Robot.

Also, the look & feel of a laser product is, in my opinion, far superior to a UV Printed product. This isn't supposed to be a Poster.

Maybe what you are calling a UV printer is different than the flatbed UV Ink printers I've ran in the past to print signage. Is what you are talking about something different?

--------

To answer someone else's question, no, Speed isn't going to be a thing for me. I am not going to be pumping out hundreds of these things per week or anything. Getting a good dark burn to create contrast is what is most important to me.

--------

As to everyone else who has replied, thank you so much. You've given me a lot to consider.

Modern UV printers are insanely powerful. You can build height and give dimension to your printed product. I have a sample smart phone case that looks like water with water droplets on it and the droplets are raised, so they look like real water droplets. That's a lot more than a "poster".

To each his own, if you're only doing a small amount of them, then I can't see spending the money on a western laser, unless it's a lower end model from one of them.

Doesn't make sense to spend $25,000-30,000 on a machine to do $2000 a year worth of work (I have no idea what your real number is, that's just an example).

I'd still be looking at UV printing on a Roland or Mimaki UV printer. I'd build color and texture with it and it would be beautiful and something people would love to hang on their walls.

[Clay Clark]

Modern UV printers are insanely powerful. You can build height and give dimension to your printed product. I have a sample smart phone case that looks like water with water droplets on it and the droplets are raised, so they look like real water droplets. That's a lot more than a "poster".

To each his own, if you're only doing a small amount of them, then I can't see spending the money on a western laser, unless it's a lower end model from one of them.

Doesn't make sense to spend $25,000-30,000 on a machine to do $2000 a year worth of work (I have no idea what your real number is, that's just an example).

I'd still be looking at UV printing on a Roland or Mimaki UV printer. I'd build color and texture with it and it would be beautiful and something people would love to hang on their walls.

It would be more like $5000 per month, but I see your point. I will definitely look in to the UV option. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

[Scott Shepherd]

It would be more like $5000 per month, but I see your point. I will definitely look in to the UV option. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

$60,000 a year, I wouldn't think twice, I'd order a western machine tomorrow. If ANY customers we have put jobs of that size on the table, we'd buy a nice machine the following day.

[Clay Clark]

$60,000 a year, I wouldn't think twice, I'd order a western machine tomorrow. If ANY customers we have put jobs of that size on the table, we'd buy a nice machine the following day.
Scott, tried to send you a private message, but it says your box is full :)

[Bert Kemp]

If doing this as a kinda side thing for a few extra bucks Like I said a Rabbit USA laser would do the job. The 6040 has a bed size of 24 x16 which is the largest of your sizes, you could go a little bigger bed get 80 watts and still save thousands of dollar over a Trotec. It will do what you want to do and has good USA support.


Hey Scott, can I comment on this and ask you to give your input?

This product is more of an "art" piece. Race fans hang it on their wall with pride. Some of that pride comes from the respect for engineering and technology that goes in to race cars, and that engineering & technology is part of the product as it was made with a Robot.

Also, the look & feel of a laser product is, in my opinion, far superior to a UV Printed product. This isn't supposed to be a Poster.

Maybe what you are calling a UV printer is different than the flatbed UV Ink printers I've ran in the past to print signage. Is what you are talking about something different?

--------

To answer someone else's question, no, Speed isn't going to be a thing for me. I am not going to be pumping out hundreds of these things per week or anything. Getting a good dark burn to create contrast is what is most important to me.

--------

As to everyone else who has replied, thank you so much. You've given me a lot to consider.

[Bert Kemp]

Your files may be vectorized but you can raster vector images and I'm pretty sure she rasters these maps for you


Mike, I do not know what she is using, but I can ask.

I've seen a few people assuming I'm using Raster images. My files are all fully vectorized. (Just in case this helps add to the discussion)

[Mike Null]

$60,000 a year. Get a Trotec, ULS or Epilog and forget the headaches that you will get with Chinese machines.

[Wilbur Harris]

$60,000 a year. Get a Trotec, ULS or Epilog and forget the headaches that you will get with Chinese machines.

I agree in full...

[Rich Harman]

If you want any depth at all, I seriously doubt the Trotec will be anywhere close to twice as fast. Superficial, yes, but if you want an 1/8" deep cut, you can only put down an 80w beam so fast to get that done.

I can engrave at up to 800 mm/sec with my machine. At that speed I get random spots outside where it should be firing - a limitation of the DC glass tubes. Realistically 400 - 500mm/sec is the limit for good quality. The Trotec is going to be something like four times faster - maybe more. Unless of course you need to engrave deep like you said but my point is that I run out of speed long before I run out of power.

[Dave Sheldrake]

but my point is that I run out of speed long before I run out of power.

^^^^ Yup

I love Chinese lasers, mine make me a lot of money every year and I have the UK's best supplier of machines at the end of a phone line anytime I need it BUT

don't buy a Chinese machine to throughput $60k's worth of engraving a year, it will end badly :)

[George M. Perzel]

Dave;
You lost me with your last comment regarding $60K thruput in a year-whaddaya mean??
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Dave Sheldrake]

$60k a years worth of engraving George :)

[Matt McCoy]

It would be more like $5000 per month, but I see your point. I will definitely look in to the UV option. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

Hi Clay: This looks like about 1.5 pieces a day (give or take). You may not need the speed (read: expense) of faster engraving yet.

[George M. Perzel]

Dave;
Forgive me for being dense-understand the $60K worth of work but why ending badly?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Bert Kemp]

George I think he means that if you get an import Chinese laser that the laser is incapable of doing that kind of production and will end badly if you don't buy a western machine


Dave;
Forgive me for being dense-understand the $60K worth of work but why ending badly?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't care what the machines cost, our customers are paying for them :D If they are paying for them, why not get a nice one? ;)

[Glen Monaghan]

The customer is paying for your nice, expensive machines, but some people find that their customers are tighter with their pocketbooks. If you can't charge your customers enough for your services to make a $25-30,000 machine affordable, then you might opt for a $5-7,000, but less nice, one. Or, even if you are able to charge enough to make that more expensive machine affordable, some might choose instead to take the $20,000+ difference as profit this year. Or maybe it's just a bit of optimism, masochism, and/or anxiety about your financial future that sways one toward the cheaper alternative...

[Scott Shepherd]

The customer is paying for your nice, expensive machines, but some people find that their customers are tighter with their pocketbooks. If you can't charge your customers enough for your services to make a $25-30,000 machine affordable, then you might opt for a $5-7,000, but less nice, one. Or, even if you are able to charge enough to make that more expensive machine affordable, some might choose instead to take the $20,000+ difference as profit this year. Or maybe it's just a bit of optimism, masochism, and/or anxiety about your financial future that sways one toward the cheaper alternative...

No risk, no reward ;)

[Bert Kemp]

I agree I'd much rather put an extra 15 to 20k in my pocket then have a nice machine, my cheap machine will do the work and I pocket the difference but I don't make any money anyway its just for funzees with me, most the time anyway.:D



The customer is paying for your nice, expensive machines, but some people find that their customers are tighter with their pocketbooks. If you can't charge your customers enough for your services to make a $25-30,000 machine affordable, then you might opt for a $5-7,000, but less nice, one. Or, even if you are able to charge enough to make that more expensive machine affordable, some might choose instead to take the $20,000+ difference as profit this year. Or maybe it's just a bit of optimism, masochism, and/or anxiety about your financial future that sways one toward the cheaper alternative...

[Dave Sheldrake]

George I think he means that if you get an import Chinese laser that the laser is incapable of doing that kind of production and will end badly if you don't buy a western machine

Yup, pretty much, $60k+ jobs are great but the equipment to do that kind of work quickly and with high quality needs to be a quality machine. Chinese boxes really don't like a lot of very fine detail engraving mostly due to the rather brutal control systems and drive trains, that's before you get into the general beam quality of DC fired cheap tubes.

That kind of repeat work needs to be reliable and even though I adore my Chinese machines they do have bad days, a bad day when I'm just murdering out loads of cut parts isn't too bad but I would want to be halfway through say a 2 hour engraving job and it goes wobbly leaving me with 2 hours lost and the cost of the material to cover.

I have a feeling looking at the items the OP makes that they are going to be less than satisfied having to deal with the odd problems that Chinese boxes often have (engraving wise)

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree I'd much rather put an extra 15 to 20k in my pocket then have a nice machine,

I'd much rather the machine put an extra $20K in my pocket from additional work it can do. I've posted this many times, we do some really tiny work, and I can't recall the number, but off the top of my head, it's about $35,000 a year in work that requires very intricate detail, detail not possible with the Chinese machines. So I'll take that extra $35K a year in work because we invested in a nicer machine, but that's us. Might not be the type of work you see, do, or get to quote, but for us, it is, so it's not an option.

[Mike Null]

Bert

The kind of problem you are having today with your machine/software is a perfect example of why those of us who have production deadlines and accuracy/quality requirements buy Trotecs and the US brands. My machine is nearly 9 years old with one week of downtime. I make my living with this equipment so I'm careful what I buy.

[Bert Kemp]

Guys I don't argue the point they are better machines and they make you money. Its just everyone here is not in a position to spend big money on a machine, in fact I would say most of us are small time laser engravers and we make do with what we can afford. My personal issues are more then likely my lack of knowledge of what the software and machine are capable of , I would not blame my laser at all I'm sure it can do just about anything the others can do , its just a matter of me learning how to do it. Theres lots of things about corel I'll never understand its just to complicated a program for me , but I can use what I can get out of it and hopefully I'll learn a lot more with it. But its just me not the equipment or the software.


Bert

The kind of problem you are having today with your machine/software is a perfect example of why those of us who have production deadlines and accuracy/quality requirements buy Trotecs and the US brands. My machine is nearly 9 years old with one week of downtime. I make my living with this equipment so I'm careful what I buy.

As another example, I bought my Newing Hall several years ago for $1000. I spent $10,000 to refurbish and update it. This week alone I billed $2300 with that machine. I don't bill that much on it every week but it gives you an idea.

[Mike Null]

Bert

I perfectly well understand the appeal of Chinese machines, especially for those who are more interested in their use as hobby machines rather than production equipment. While even they may be a bit pricey for my hobby budget they would still be on my radar.

[Scott Shepherd]

Bert, I don't think anyone with a Trotec, ULS, or Epilog has said there's no place for Chinese lasers. Quite the contrary, most all of us that talk about it have said many, many times that the machines have their place. However, it's actually the opposite opinion from some. While we fully believe there is a place and use for both sets of machines, some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money (not suggesting that's your view). Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities, and yet, those shortfalls are where some of our customers live. So items that their machines won't do, or don't do well, is where our customer requirements are. We buy machines that fill our customer requirements. What's the point of buying a machine and saying how great it is if I have to turn away work because it won't do certain things that my customers ask?

But when it's all recounted, it's recounted in a way like we're comparing apples to apples and we're not. I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%. Well, when you start putting limitations on what can and can't be done, then the machines are not the same.

There are many things that go into buying a laser and the right answer for one might be quite different than the right answer for another. Experience, budget, expectations, features, ease of use, are all things that go into buying a laser. However, some think that there is NO justification for Western Lasers and many of us are just stupid for buying them. It just gets old rehashing the same thing, when so many of us hold the point of view that both sets of machines have their places.

[Jerome Stanek]

so how much power is 2% of 75 watts to10% of 60 watts compare. Isn't that like 2 times more for the 75 watt unit.

[Bert Kemp]

Oh believe me if money was not an object I'd own an 80watt Trotec. as a hobby machine, I'm not in business I do this for fun mostly and to keep me out of trouble. I try to buy the best I can afford. I buy mostly craftsmen tools, I can afford them and I only have to buy them once. How ever the laser was a different story I messed up the first time, you all know that story, so second time around I did the best I could do which was really more then I could do and I got the rabbit based a lot on what I read here. So Far so good the machine runs fine the operator need help LOL .



Bert, I don't think anyone with a Trotec, ULS, or Epilog has said there's no place for Chinese lasers. Quite the contrary, most all of us that talk about it have said many, many times that the machines have their place. However, it's actually the opposite opinion from some. While we fully believe there is a place and use for both sets of machines, some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money (not suggesting that's your view). Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities, and yet, those shortfalls are where some of our customers live. So items that their machines won't do, or don't do well, is where our customer requirements are. We buy machines that fill our customer requirements. What's the point of buying a machine and saying how great it is if I have to turn away work because it won't do certain things that my customers ask?

But when it's all recounted, it's recounted in a way like we're comparing apples to apples and we're not. I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%. Well, when you start putting limitations on what can and can't be done, then the machines are not the same.

There are many things that go into buying a laser and the right answer for one might be quite different than the right answer for another. Experience, budget, expectations, features, ease of use, are all things that go into buying a laser. However, some think that there is NO justification for Western Lasers and many of us are just stupid for buying them. It just gets old rehashing the same thing, when so many of us hold the point of view that both sets of machines have their places.

[Matt McCoy]

Bert

I perfectly well understand the appeal of Chinese machines, especially for those who are more interested in their use as hobby machines rather than production equipment. While even they may be a bit pricey for my hobby budget they would still be on my radar.

Good morning Mike: I think the appeal is broader to more than just the hobbyist and these machines are suitable for production work as evidenced by a some respected SMC'ers.

Academically (I'm an idiot), since China is the world's largest manufacturer and makes most things that you would find in the majority of American Homes (e.g., laptops, smart phones, HDTVs, etc.), what machines do they use to produce its products? Are these manufacturers pumping out millions of units of products with Chinese machines or are they importing them? Along the same line, does Shenhui, Weike, et al use its own machines to manufacture their lasers? Where are the guts of Epilog, Trotec, and Universal manufactured? I ask because I'm curious.

Thanks!


Bert,...some people think that anyone that buys a mainstream laser is an idiot and wasted their money...Those of us who have "wasted our money" in some people's views seem to never have to post things like "I can't get this to engrave right". They post the short fallings of their machines and capabilities...

...I regularly do things below 2% power on our machine. REGULARLY. However, the Chinese machines won't do it. It's even listed in the instructions that it won't work well below 8-10%

Maybe some, but probably not the majority. I think you've laid out your case just fine and have expressed that you cannot meet the needs of your customers with anything less than what you have purchased. However, consider two things:

1) You are a job shop that must be flexible and produces a large volume of pieces at a relatively low price point per piece (relatively) and as fast as possible. Not everyone that is a member here has the same business model. For instance, The OP stated in his first post "...I'd like to get a machine that is of good quality, but I don't need anything that is overly expensive." He indicated the size, material, the quantity he produces, and that he has extensive experience with CNC. A quick Google tells me that he currently needs to produce ~1.6 pieces a day. In my opinion, he does not need a western machine -- yet.

2) Why didn't you purchase a Speedy 400 or a 120 W tube? My guess would be that it is either overkill or it was outside the budget, or both. You carefully and thoughtfully selected the right tool for the job.

It's my impression that all machines have their idiosyncrasies and I notice that there are plenty of help-me posts for western machines. Just for grins, I entered the search terms below followed by "problems" in the SMC Google bar which returned the following number of posts. Here are the highly unscientific results, but maybe interesting just for a different perspective.

Universal - 3,460
Epilog - 2,880
Trotec - 2,170
Weike - 341
Shenhui - 1,620
Rabbit - 1,280
FSL - 169

I often see posted that Chinese machines cannot engrave below 8-10% power. While I won't dispute that is the case for some, I would like to share that I have a Chinese machine and engrave cork at 100 speed and 1% power. So, I'm wondering if folks that post that have experience with this or are repeating what they have read here.

Thanks Scott!

[Mike Null]

Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)

Let's all go out an buy an FSL--right Bert??:eek:

[Bert Kemp]

Let me get the coffee out of my nose before I answer that Mike.
OK OK yes lets do that as you can see theres only 169 cry's for help on the fsl so they got to be good, oh oh wait a Min theres only 169 made:rolleyes:


Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)

Let's all go out an buy an FSL--right Bert??:eek:

[Keith Outten]

If your doing commercial work and only own one laser engraver it better be a reliable machine. You only have to be late once to lose a good customer and often a substantial percentage of your annual income.

I've seen a large number of people here who purchased lower quality machines to use at home just for fun and later found themselves doing jobs for commercial customers with serious deadlines. Panic is the best way I know to describe what happens when your machine fails, you don't have a backup laser, and you suddenly realize that you are going to be late. If you sign a contract to deliver a job on a specific date and can't deliver you can be in serious trouble. If you don't have a business license and insurance you can also find yourself in a very uncomfortable position or worse lose your home, savings, etc.

[Bill George]

Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?

[Keith Winter]

Gotta play devil's advocate here...

I'm not understanding how an 80w $35000 Trotec that *may* engrave wood twice as fast as my 80w $4800 Triumph, is a better bargain? If you want any depth at all, I seriously doubt the Trotec will be anywhere close to twice as fast. Superficial, yes, but if you want an 1/8" deep cut, you can only put down an 80w beam so fast to get that done. And while the Trotec will likely be faster, I doubt 2x as fast will happen. I've already proven this to myself with my own machines (my Triumph will engrave wood 3/16" deep more than 3x as fast as my 40w Synrad LS900)

Another factor- I can run FOUR of those 24x16's at one time in my Triumph, vs ONE in the Trotec. This works very well in my situation because I have to keep as many of my 13 machines busy as possible every day. One machine making money running for an hour gives me time to get another machine making money. This may not work if you have one employee per machine. I don't have that luxury. My BIL runs the C2000 and the little ULS laser. Everything else, I do. For me, more machines makes more sense than less but FASTER machines. If you're a one-man-show and want more productivity and have the space, buy a second smaller Chinese machine to run other jobs while the big one is running. And the two machines together will barely cost 1/3 the price of the Trotec.

Finally, as mentioned above, the broken Trotec will cost $5 large to fix. I can replace my whole Triumph for that--

Sorry to sound argumentative, but I've been engraving for 41 years, and have been using lasers for 13 years. As much as I would love a Trotec, I'll never get one because for my needs, it would be a waste of my money. Your needs may vary. But-- the fastest doesn't always win the race...
;)

Wow Kev you're running quite an operation with 13 machines congrats!

in my opinion choosing the right tool for the job is really import especially with your first laser. I do not have a Chinese laser, but I do have 2 trotecs (soon to be 3 :D with a speedy 400 on order). There is simply no comparison, the quality and support of the Trotec blows away the competition. I just looked at universal, epilogue, and a couple Chinese lasers again last week, what did I do? I bought another Trotec.

Now I will say epilogue was quite nice, but they are not as fast engraving. The Chinese lasers from everything I've read are best for cutting. Not better than the U.S. Machines but yes, a much better value if the majority of what you want to do is cut. You can have 3 or 4 Chinese lasers to the one Trotec / universal / epilogue but you and your team do loose hours when they break, and the learning curve is higher. Not to mention if you engrave like clay is trying to do it's going to take you 2-3 times as long on the Chinese laser and while your machine is busy you cannot take on more jobs. May not be your top concern now, as I read your volume is low, but as you take on more customer and jobs this will become more important.

Kev in my humble opinion you are talking about is apples to oranges to what clay wants. He wants to cut and engrave, you mainly cut I believe? He will have only one machine so when it's down he is 100% down, you have 13 machines, so when one is down you are only 8% down.

Also when you first start learning the laser and have and immediate question to get your job going, U.S. Tech support is a big deal. This fades over time and as you get more experienced, and everyone on here is amazing at answering questions, but we all have slightly different machines. Tech support is still very nice to have for specific machine related questions and issues. Plus when you have one machine and it goes down, you're going to be happy as hell when they overnight you the part and your Trotec rep shows up at the door the next day. Reliability and a three year warranty is worth it's weight in gold at that point. We lost our tube doing the Christmas rush our first year, and this is exactly what happened, we were down less than 36 hours. Had it been longer we would have lost thousands of dollars and hundreds of customers at the most critical time for our business since we only had one machine at that point, we were 100% out of commission. Very happy with how Trotec and Chris our local rep handled that situation in such a timely manner.

Is is there a time and a place for a inexpensive Chinese laser, yes, but I just haven't found that place yet :p. In all seriousness though I would not go Chinese on your first laser if this is more than a hobby. Maybe your second or third, but not the first one. It doesn't fit what you're trying to do, and having US support is very nice when you need it.

[Keith Winter]

Hey Scott, can I comment on this and ask you to give your input?

This product is more of an "art" piece. Race fans hang it on their wall with pride. Some of that pride comes from the respect for engineering and technology that goes in to race cars, and that engineering & technology is part of the product as it was made with a Robot.

Also, the look & feel of a laser product is, in my opinion, far superior to a UV Printed product. This isn't supposed to be a Poster.

Maybe what you are calling a UV printer is different than the flatbed UV Ink printers I've ran in the past to print signage. Is what you are talking about something different?

--------

To answer someone else's question, no, Speed isn't going to be a thing for me. I am not going to be pumping out hundreds of these things per week or anything. Getting a good dark burn to create contrast is what is most important to me.

--------

As to everyone else who has replied, thank you so much. You've given me a lot to consider.

Clay I wouldn't worry about the dark burn when choosing the machine manufacturer, you can get that with any U.S. machine and I think Chinese too if you have enough power. Taking it slightly out of focus will help with the darkening. Your can even darken it with aftermarket products if you want it dark.

[Dave Sheldrake]

If you don't have business license and insurance you can also find yourself in a very uncomfortable position or worse lose your home, savings, etc.

A daily argument I have when people ask me about importing direct from China, I'd go so far as to say I have yet to see a machine come out of China that would pass UK factory safety inspection, every machine that comes in from China that HPC Lasers imports has significant time spent on it to make sure it conforms to UK regulations, everything from safety switches to laser radiation hazard warnings.


So, I'm wondering if folks that post that have experience with this or are repeating what they have read here.

Something wrong with that Matt, DC current tubes don't fire at 1% unless the baseline current has been set too high, it's the nature of DC arc based tubes that they require a minimum current to sustain the arc. Both Beijing EFR and RECI technical department state the minimum strike current for a DC tube when new is 6% with that increasing the 9-12% after the break in period.
Over the years I have owned and used tubes from Gsi, Reci, Efr, Golden laser, Choherant, Sunic Sumio, TongLi, and YongLi and have yet in over 100 tubes ever found one that will fire below 6% with any degree of reliability when set to the correct ignition current.


Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them.

I'm the same Mike, I now have 15 machines (got rid of one) and although not all of them are Chinese I couldn't run a business based on only 1 Chinese machine, they just aren't refined enough and while mine have all been very reliable the general way Chinese DC machines work just isn't up to standard for what I would need to do. I could run a paying hobby on one Chinese machine but that's a whole different game :)

I'm not a huge supporter of Western made machines and think some of them are overpriced (as well as some being built in Chinese factories that I have seen first hand) but there are times when any choice other than a Western machine is a bad choice.
The confusion between Hobby, Paying Hobby and Business is what causes most of the problems, people will start off with a Hobby, make a few extra to sell on Ebay (paying hobby) and then assume making that in to a long term business will work automatically with their set up...it rarely does.

Looking at my workload today at the unit, 96% is cutting work, my Chinese machines do that very well and at speed, if that dropped to 75% with even so little as 20% engraving I'd be ordering a Trotech or a Halo today to do the engraving work.

Of course..other peoples experiences may be different, like I've mentioned before..I mostly just cut items all day so I'm not really qualified to answer on engraving :)

cheers

Dave

[Matt McCoy]

Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)...

What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.


Let me get the coffee out of my nose before I answer that Mike.
OK OK yes lets do that as you can see theres only 169 cry's for help on the fsl so they got to be good, oh oh wait a Min theres only 169 made:rolleyes:

Well, I did point out that it is highly unscientific and would further encourage anyone reading it to take it with grain of salt. However, just keep it in mind when someone uses post counts on a forum to try to determine which machine is more reliable or problematic -- including that one.


Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?

See above. Just food for discussion, though.

[Matt McCoy]

...Something wrong with that Matt, DC current tubes don't fire at 1% unless the baseline current has been set too high, it's the nature of DC arc based tubes that they require a minimum current to sustain the arc. Both Beijing EFR and RECI technical department state the minimum strike current for a DC tube when new is 6% with that increasing the 9-12% after the break in period.
Over the years I have owned and used tubes from Gsi, Reci, Efr, Golden laser, Choherant, Sunic Sumio, TongLi, and YongLi and have yet in over 100 tubes ever found one that will fire below 6% with any degree of reliability when set to the correct ignition current...

Hi Dave: Thanks for the info. I will defer to your expertise and take you at your word.

What is not wrong, are the settings I mentioned and the tube I have, which is listed as a 90W RECI tube. I believe it to be an 80W, though.

BTW, I know some folks that have made a pretty good living on such sites as eBay. I wouldn't generalize it as a platform for paying hobbies. I do not know any of the people in this article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729605/The-eBay-millionaires-How-mother-three-Tesco-shelf-stacker-real-life-Del-Boy-fortunes-online-retailer-celebrates-15th-birthday.html

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Gang;
I really don't want to restart the perpetual argument of Chines versus mainstream lasers, but any one who thinks a Chinese laser will not hold up in a "production" environment is sadly mistaken. The $60K a year throuput workload may be a problem for certain types of workloads but I can assure you that its a piece of cake for others-depends on what you are using it for.
I have now had my dual tube large bed Shenhui for four years and have exceeded $80K per year thruput from this one machine which is used about two hours per day for 8 months of the year and 6 hours a day for the remaining four months. Granted, I have a yearlong niche market for laser engraved/cut maps and a 4 month niche market for wood ornament type items. The workload is a combination of engraving and cutting and what I lack in comparable engraving speed is offset to some degree by the double volume achieved with the dual heads. In addition, my map products lend themselves well to the use of vector engraving using single line fonts and/or multiple contour vector lines. There also have been times when the machine has been used 10 hours non-stop-maybe every day for a week.
During the four years I have replaced:
1. One of the two tubes- preemptive as I thought the power was declining
2. The mainboard- lightning hit the cable TV/Internet/Phone incoming cable and wiped ouit two tv's, the Shenhui mainboard, the GCC Mercury mainboard, and a bunch of other stuff-all covered by insurance luckily. I had a spare Shenhui board so no lost time.
3. Several lenses-cutting a lot of thin wood can cause crud buildup if air assist is fails-not a prob at $40 a pop. ( Oven cleaner does remove crud with no ill effects on lens)
4. One air blower-US made- Chinese ones are total junk
5. One LCD display panel-had a spare

I should also mention that I have three GCC "mainstream" lasers, a 60 watt Mercury and two 30 watt Venus units. All are operable but the Mercury has a weird startup proble which GCC thinks is caused by something wrong in the mainboard- $1700 is current price, up from $750 a year ago. These units are seldom used as Shenhui handles bulk of what I do. True, I don't get quite the detail with the Shenhui as with the others but easy to engrave 6pt fonts which is more than I need.
Returning to the original thread topic, Clay's "wood murals" are not much different than my maps although much less detailed. I don't particulialy like Baltic birch as an engraving medium (the reason she uses black powder filler). I would recommend 1/8" or 1/4" luan mahogany without the powder or cherry ply.
Since his budget is limited, I would recommend a large bed, dual head Chinese machine which would allow him to do at least two at a time and experiment with multiple contour lines.. This machine should cost no more tha $9K delivered with an extra tube and spare everything.
Good Luck, Clay
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Bill George]

What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.



Well, I did point out that it is highly unscientific and would further encourage anyone reading it to take it with grain of salt. However, just keep it in mind when someone uses post counts on a forum to try to determine which machine is more reliable or problematic -- including that one.
Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?
See above. Just food for discussion, though.

It all depends on how far back that Search went? If it go's back 10 years perhaps the ULS, Epilog and other Western machines were the only ones used, hence more posts.

[Keith Winter]

I'm not a huge supporter of Western made machines and think some of them are overpriced (as well as some being built in Chinese factories that I have seen first hand) but there are times when any choice other than a Western machine is a bad choice.
The confusion between Hobby, Paying Hobby and Business is what causes most of the problems, people will start off with a Hobby, make a few extra to sell on Ebay (paying hobby) and then assume making that in to a long term business will work automatically with their set up...it rarely does.

Looking at my workload today at the unit, 96% is cutting work, my Chinese machines do that very well and at speed, if that dropped to 75% with even so little as 20% engraving I'd be ordering a Trotech or a Halo today to do the engraving work.

Of course..other peoples experiences may be different, like I've mentioned before..I mostly just cut items all day so I'm not really qualified to answer on engraving :)

cheers

Dave

Definitely a time and place for each type of machine. Really good food for thought Dave!

[Keith Winter]

Hi Gang;
I
During the four years I have replaced:
1. One of the two tubes- preemptive as I thought the power was declining
2. The mainboard- lightning hit the cable TV/Internet/Phone incoming cable and wiped ouit two tv's, the Shenhui mainboard, the GCC Mercury mainboard, and a bunch of other stuff-all covered by insurance luckily. I had a spare Shenhui board so no lost time.
3. Several lenses-cutting a lot of thin wood can cause crud buildup if air assist is fails-not a prob at $40 a pop. ( Oven cleaner does remove crud with no ill effects on lens)
4. One air blower-US made- Chinese ones are total junk
5. One LCD display panel-had a spare

I should also mention that I have three GCC "mainstream" lasers, a 60 watt Mercury and two 30 watt Venus units. All are operable but the Mercury has a weird startup proble which GCC thinks is caused by something wrong in the mainboard- $1700 is current price, up from $750 a year ago. These units are seldom used as Shenhui handles bulk of what I do. True, I don't get quite the detail with the Shenhui as with the others but easy to engrave 6pt fonts which is more than I need.
Returning to the original thread topic, Clay's "wood murals" are not much different than my maps although much less detailed. I don't particulialy like Baltic birch as an engraving medium (the reason she uses black powder filler). I would recommend 1/8" or 1/4" luan mahogany without the powder or cherry ply.
Since his budget is limited, I would recommend a large bed, dual head Chinese machine which would allow him to do at least two at a time and experiment with multiple contour lines.. This machine should cost no more tha $9K delivered with an extra tube and spare everything.
Good Luck, Clay
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

Really good points as well George. Makes me think about our cutting, if we have to replace even one lens due to the gunk from cutting that's $400 vs $40 on yours. That's another savings right there. Also tubes on the Chinese are quite a bit cheaper to recharge/replace too aren't they?

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Keith;
Cost me $930 for two 80 watt EFR Chinese glass tubes and that included air freight and insurance versus $2890 for reload of my 60 watt Synrad Firestar for the Mercury.
In addition, much is made by some folks about the lack of service, local spares, customer support, etc for Chinese tubes. In truth, the Chinese manuals/documentation is sadly lacking clarity, but every question I have had has been answered either by email or by Skype by Chinese techs with 24 hours -unless the timeframe is around Chinese New Year. Further , parts are readily available and swappable from multiple sources due to the Chinese philosophy that designs are everyones property and anything can be duplicated- at least it appears that way.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Scott Shepherd]

2) Why didn't you purchase a Speedy 400 or a 120 W tube? My guess would be that it is either overkill or it was outside the budget, or both. You carefully and thoughtfully selected the right tool for the job.



Two reasons....

1) It wasn't available on the market when we bought our machine.

2) We rarely get asked to do work larger than the 300 will handle.

[Dave Sheldrake]

What is not wrong, are the settings I mentioned and the tube I have,

Hiya Matt,

nonono I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying there is something wrong :) A DC tube shouldn't fire at 1%, they aren't designed to hence it's getting more current than it would usually expect :)


I wouldn't generalize it as a platform for paying hobbies.

I didn't, I meant Ebay is the first stop usually when people find they can make stuff in their spare time and sell it :) A large number of people and companies make huge sums on Ebay :)


What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.

Repairs cost my friend, somebody ends up paying, having to employ 2 people just to keep on top of machine maintenance schedules costs me a LOT of money every year. I would think I could buy 2 x speedy 400's for what I pay in machine maintenance but for what I do it's a necessary evil, Chinese machines work for me however I'm not under the illusion they would work for everybody as each circumstance comes with it's own problems.

[Matt McCoy]

Hiya Matt,

nonono I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying there is something wrong :) A DC tube shouldn't fire at 1%, they aren't designed to hence it's getting more current than it would usually expect :)



I didn't, I meant Ebay is the first stop usually when people find they can make stuff in their spare time and sell it :) A large number of people and companies make huge sums on Ebay :)



Repairs cost my friend, somebody ends up paying, having to employ 2 people just to keep on top of machine maintenance schedules costs me a LOT of money every year. I would think I could buy 2 x speedy 400's for what I pay in machine maintenance but for what I do it's a necessary evil, Chinese machines work for me however I'm not under the illusion they would work for everybody as each circumstance comes with it's own problems.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.

[Keith Winter]

George you make some really compelling arguments for the Shenhui 1280. Kev & Dave are you running the same lasers as George or what Chinese lasers are you guys running?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cutters are currently a 180 watt 1200 x 900 and the biggest is a 220 watt 2,500mm x 1,525mm in Chinese, Western I have 2 much smaller ULS models both with 80 watt tubes and an old Epilog that just sits there waiting to be fixed, Japanese I have a 3.2m x 2.5m 7.5kW industrial. Usual sundry 300 x 300 Galvo machines (x 2) (Chinese one Fibre,one CO2)(oh, and a broken diode fired YAG) having just gotten rid of my bigger Vytek moving bed model that never got used after it's initial job it was purchased for.

[Keith Winter]

Cutters are currently a 180 watt 1200 x 900 and the biggest is a 220 watt 2,500mm x 1,525mm in Chinese, Western I have 2 much smaller ULS models both with 80 watt tubes and an old Epilog that just sits there waiting to be fixed, Japanese I have a 3.2m x 2.5m 7.5kW industrial. Usual sundry 300 x 300 Galvo machines (x 2) (Chinese one Fibre,one CO2)(oh, and a broken diode fired YAG) having just gotten rid of my bigger Vytek moving bed model that never got used after it's initial job it was purchased for.

Nice stable of lasers you have there. I hadn't even considered the Chinese for Galvo, I could desperately use one but cannot afford a $40k-$50k U.S. one.

As for the OP I'd still stand by my US machine for his first given what he's engraving. I've been extremely happy with my machines and the support.

However, I think this has been a really eye opening thread. You (Dave), Kev, and George have really opened my eyes to the possibility of a Chinese laser for cutting along side my Trotecs for engraving. Thanks for that!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Keith,

Chinese CO2 Galvos run about $6k for a 300 x 300 bed size.

Just going to have a look at the new Trotech cutter 3m x 2m bed flatbed but it's probably going to be in the same price range as a full spec Japanese 2.5kW flatbed. 11 of my lasers are Chinese but I tend to agree, the OP should be looking at a Trotech rather than Chinese for his first mnachine :)

[Keith Winter]

Dave we talking fiber Galvos for marking stainless steel?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Fibres run about $8k or so for a 30 - 50 watt I believe, few issues with some of the vendors though, if you go down that road let me know and I'll advise of some of the pitfalls you may have ;)

[Kev Williams]

Three things, Trotec's don't cost $35,000, I doubt that it was $4,800 to your door, and where's it $5,000 to fix a Trotec

Thing one:
So what DOES an 80watt Trotec with a reasonably large table cost? I know it has to be high-20s low 30's...

Thing two:
Yes, $4800 to my door:

Triumph 1390, 80 watts, all 1112 pounds of it: $3050 (it was actually $2900, the extra was spare lens & mirrors)
Shipping from China: $520
CTL LAX brokers: $957.87
Customs fees: $135.56
Wire transfer fee: $45
Storage fee at warehouse: $20
U-haul to get it home from warehouse: $35

Grand total: $4763.43
And when I say it's paid for itself many times over, I ain't jokin'... This was also the only piece of equipment I paid cash for...

Thing 3, posted above in this very thread, see bold:

Here's the deal - USA lasers cost much more than a Chinese laser. They're better lasers! On the other hand, if that's all you want to do, a Chinese laser would do it a ton cheaper. Thing is, you'll come up with something else and a Chinese laser might not be the best. Your call indeed!

The Trotec laser at work just broke and they're talking 5K to get it fixed. BUT, it's been a good one! I paid 7K to get a Chinese laser that I had trouble getting in the house...in fact...I'm on "cold taters" for buying something that large. I've made my wife a few items but she seems unimpressed at the moment. I'm sure getting tired of cooking and eating from this card table in the kitchen. Should have measured closer....

[Scott Shepherd]

We get it, if you had to buy a laser, you'd buy a Chinese one. We get it. That doesn't make people who don't buy your strategy stupid. If we went with your strategy, and assumed you are running 1/2 the machines you say you keep busy, that would be 6 machines that you keep busy every day. You said you work 18 hour days, so 6 machines at 18 hours, that's 108 hours of billable work each day. At $60 per hour, which would be 1/2 our shop rate, that would be $6,480 per day, $32,400 per 5 day week, and $1,684,800 per year. All done by one guy keeping 6 out of 13 machines busy every day.

I have yet to met anyone in ANY manufacturing that's producing $1.6M in billable work per person.

If that was the case, I seriously doubt you'd be buying refurbished computers to run your machines off of, or looking for the cheapest "(insert tool here)" you can find.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cost me £15,000 to replace a lens cartridge on the mitsu but I don't think I'll be trading it in to get a couple more Chinese machines any time soon ;)

[Keith Winter]

Fibres run about $8k or so for a 30 - 50 watt I believe, few issues with some of the vendors though, if you go down that road let me know and I'll advise of some of the pitfalls you may have ;)

Thanks Dave! I will reach out to you in a few months on this when we are ready!

[Jacob John]

Fibres run about $8k or so for a 30 - 50 watt I believe, few issues with some of the vendors though, if you go down that road let me know and I'll advise of some of the pitfalls you may have ;)


Dave, can you list a few names of the Chinese fiber galvos that you think are worth a second look? I'm not quite there yet, but am looking toward the future (next 6 months to a year). The Trotec still has a chunk of my money tied up, but I'd definitely consider a Chinese fiber galvo. I'd like an enclosed if possible. Thanks.

[Jack Clague]

I'm not gonna debate whats better, I went Trotec and still think its the best decision i ever made, granted i'm on the other side of that large pond so my choices are not as vast as the US and my prices are higher but I still feel from the support i have gotten from Trotec with the usability and stress free use of the machine has made my venture into this business a smooth one.

Jack

[Giles Duinslaeger]

Anyone knows what the black powder would be that is mentioned in the startpost?

[Matt McCoy]

Anyone knows what the black powder would be that is mentioned in the startpost?

You might look into this:

http://www.smoke-wood.com/SM-wd-21.HTML