Starrett adjustable square, or who... ?

[Marc Langille]

Everning everyone,

I am attending a traditional woodworking class at MASW right after Labor Day, and one of the tools mentioned is a Starrett square.

I thought about buying the adjustable combination version to have more flexibility in my measuring/marking tool purchase. Nice, used ones can be had online (eBay for example).

Are there other comparable manufacturers out there? Brown & Sharpe? Union? Are they all the same? Garrett Hack mentioned Starrett as the best brand to buy, in terms of accuracy. I know machinest quality non-adjustable squares can be had for good prices at LV, so that the other option.

BTW, my wife bought my a $75 gift certificate to Lee Valley, so I will get that very nice $99 LA block plane with the adjustable mouth. Travelling to Ottawa the week of August 22nd. First time in 5 years to the original store! Sweet... :)

[John Miliunas]

Marc, for whatever it's worth, I followed the advice of a retired machinist friend of mine when I was looking at the same type of item(s). He advised against the online auction joint, for two reasons: 1) Often, pricing comes close to new ones. 2) No matter how nice it may look, you just never know how many times it may have hit the ground or just got carelessly tossed on some metal bench. I'd look for new. The Starrett is the purported "Cadillac", though I know the the B&S units are a comparable match. BTW, I did pick up the 12" Starrett combination square. Spot on and I use it regularly now for marking and setting up machines and or jigs.:) :cool:

[Joe Unni]

Marc,

I just received this from Lee Valley about a week ago after wrestling (I have small hands) with a 12" Starrett Combo for a long time:

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/markmeasure/24n0801g.jpg
Don't get me wrong, I love my Starrett, but I find this much easier to handle and it just feels better while using. And for $29.95, you can't beat it!

Good luck,
-joe

[Lloyd Robins]

The 18" blade on the Starrett square is very nice for larger work. I imagine the 24" would be really nice also. When I can get out the workshop, I either use the 18" or 4 to 6 inch squares. The 12" doesn't get use much.

[Jim Becker]

Marc,

I just received this from Lee Valley about a week ago after wrestling (I have small hands) with a 12" Starrett Combo for a long time:


Don't get me wrong, I love my Starrett, but I find this much easier to handle and it just feels better while using. And for $29.95, you can't beat it!

Joe, I have the same format from Starrett...it came in "combination" with the combination square when I bought. (slightly used from a now-closed ReTool store) I use mine a lot for layout work as well as depth measuring with another attachment. It doesn't fully replace the 12" combo, but gets a LOT of use in my shop.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Both Brown & Sharp and Starrett are top of the line squares and almost exactly equal in quality and accuracy. This follows through for almost all of their measuring tools and gear. These two companies have been competing against each other head to head for over 130 years. A slightly less expensive brand of equally high quality is SPI which you can buy through MSC Industrial Supply and is often on sale on both their website and in their monthly fliers. To increase longevity make sure you spend the extra money and get the set with BOTH the blade and the head hardened. It's worth the few extra bucks.

In my personal arsenal I have a Lee Valley/Veritas 4" double square, a 4" Starrett combo square, a 6" Starrett combo square, and a 12" SPI combo square. All are useful at different times and in different situations. Measuring tools are not a good place to try and save money. Quality will last several lifetimes if cared for properly. My 4" and 6" Starretts were bought used at auction and are over 75 years old.

[Keith Christopher]

I can't agree with Dave A more. I spent some money early on, buying cheaper squares. Big mistake. I was constantly wondering why things didn't fit right or cuts looked "off". Spend the money. Worth every penny. I have the same "mini" square as you Joe and I love the thing ! I can't believe how I lived without it for so long. Funny thing is square is square. Which is either to say it's square or it's not. doesn't matter who makes the square, 90deg isn't a few mils sharper at Starret _vs_ lee valley. so sometimes you find a gem in the coal mine so to speak, when browsing cheaper squares. but dependable quality time after time comes from these folks.

Has anyone tried the squares from Incra ?

[Derek Cohen]

I have three vintage Starretts - 4" and 12" combos and a 6" double square - and they are all just fantastic, as per their reputation. I have owned other brands as well.

What one must keep in mind when buying an adjustable square is not simply their ability to be square. What is so special about Starrett is their ergonomics. The adjusting nut, for example, moves easily on a spring and is quite unique in its ability here. The mechanicals are solid (thicker than most/all). The whole mechanism is taut yet slides effortlessly. Which is more than can be said for 90% of the competition.

You buy Starrett as much for their quality as for their accuracy. That is why they last forever.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Weaver]

While they aren't adjustable, I have a set of Mitutoyo squares I picked up a few years ago when it was on sale from MSC.

Something like this:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5789420&PMT4NO=706153


I picked them up for ~$30 I believe and they are quote accurate.

Anyway, food for thought if you can't stomach the Starrett prices...

Cheers,
-Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

Mike Weaver makes a good point. The non-adjustable engineers squares from Mitutoyo are excellent. There is a major caveat here though. Not all brands of engineers squares are of the same quality. Many of the cheaper house brands by Woodcraft, MSC, Rockler, and most of the other mail order houses either do not list their tolerance or reference ANSI standards or a British standard without telling you the requirements of the standard. The standards they cavalierly mention are incredibly broad and almost worthless if you want real accuracy. I call it misleading by omission.


Again we're back to the same type of supplier if we want the really accurate stuff; Brown & Sharp, Starrett, and Mitutoyo. All of these folks publish and list their level of accuracy. It is most typically .001" of total runout over the length of a 4" or 6" blade. Personally I try and keep my engineers squares for use only as a reference to check the accuracy of other tools. They are far too liable to get dinged, dropped, or otherwise damaged if put into daily use. Once this happens, unless you have another square of known accuracy, you now have a tool of suspect accuracy. In a drawer of my mechanics type rolloing tool chest in my shop I keep all of my reference measuring tools which are used ONLY to check other tools for accuracy. These include 1 set of dial calipers, a 24" precision straightedge, a 4" Starrett engineers square, and a magnetic dial indicator stand with assorted dial and test indicators and changeable tips. This may sound anal, but it is a great way to insure that your arsenal of daily use measuring tools remain accurate. It also unfortunately means that when there is the inevitable screwup, you have only yourself to blame and not the tool. :( :rolleyes:

[Harry Goodwin]

I own Starret 4" double, 12" combination set , 6" combinatiion and 6" B&S 6" combination and center head all which are excellent including my grandfather's combinatiion. I also pick up either brand on sale particularly engineering squares and lots of calipers, in and out, dividers and other stuff. What you have to watch in my legindary stupidity when I bought a 6" scale (Starrett) that was in tenths, try that for your woodwork. So another note of praise to the good stuff but watch the tenths uness you have that desire. Harry

[Mike Weaver]

Mike Weaver makes a good point. The non-adjustable engineers squares from Mitutoyo are excellent. There is a major caveat here though. Not all brands of engineers squares are of the same quality. Many of the cheaper house brands by Woodcraft, MSC, Rockler, and most of the other mail order houses either do not list their tolerance or reference ANSI standards or a British standard without telling you the requirements of the standard. The standards they cavalierly mention are incredibly broad and almost worthless if you want real accuracy. I call it misleading by omission.
<snip great info>


Dave,
Thanks for fleshing out my thoughts. I couldn't agree more.
In practice, I have a Starrett combination square I use a lot, and the engineers squares are for machine (neander-machines of course :eek:) setup.
And yes, you make excellent points - check the square's "lineage" carefully and don't drop it.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Michael Perata]

Mark

I have the smaller Starrett and the 24" Builders Combination. They are always handy - and always accurate.

[walter stellwagen]

I notice no one mentions lufkin -- a brand I used in WWII in my dad's defense shop.
Have they gone bad?

Walt

[Marc Langille]

BOTH [/b]the blade and the head hardened. It's worth the few extra bucks.

Hmm - I know the Lee Valley's price for a 4 piece standard combination set is pretty nice at $142... is the hardened version an important consideration?

I thought the cast iron version would be fine. Or is it simply because the hardened version is more resistant to abrasives, or it can better sustain an accidental drop? :eek:

I noticed the referenced MSC Industrial Supply site has the hardened versions with the reversible protractor head for $187. That's with the 4R graduations - 16R seems to be overkill. That seems to be a pretty good price...

Which brings me to another point - is the reversible protractor actually useful? Opinions? :confused:

[Jim Dunn]

Mitutoyo makes a pretty nice square set as well. Not quite a Starrett but very nice tools none the less. Had mine 20+ years and no problems at all.

Jim

[Mike Weaver]

Hmm - I know the Lee Valley's price for a 4 piece standard combination set is pretty nice at $142... is the hardened version an important consideration?

I thought the cast iron version would be fine. Or is it simply because the hardened version is more resistant to abrasives, or it can better sustain an accidental drop? :eek:

I noticed the referenced MSC Industrial Supply site has the hardened versions with the reversible protractor head for $187. That's with the 4R graduations - 16R seems to be overkill. That seems to be a pretty good price...

Which brings me to another point - is the reversible protractor actually useful? Opinions? :confused:

Marc,
I'm afraid I'm not an expert on these things... so keep that in mind.

I don't think even a hardened version will survive a drop to a concrete floor. The hardened version should avoid nicks, etc, on the blade during normal use and the occasional bump against other tools on your bench though.

I haven't used my reversible protractor head yet, but i think it'll come in handy in the long run. (Stealth gloat - I picked up a complete set at a flea market a couple years ago for $35 and can't detect anything wrong when checked against my Mitutoyu engineer's square:D).

If you want to save a few $$, you could try Patrick Leach (or one of the other fine antique tool dealers) - they often run across these things and I would trust that one from them would be accurate (especially if you specifically ask to have it checked?). Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Hoa Dinh]

I just bought a new Mitutoyo 6" (actually 4" X 7") engineers square for about $19 delivered from eBay. The seller still has some more. Search eBay for item #7509884850.

The same seller has the 10 1/2" version for about $25, item #7509875777. If you buy both, the total is $40. I bought only the small version because I just bought a 12" Mitutoyo comb. square for $29 delivered.

[Richard Niemiec]

Lufkin - I have a really nice 6" Lufkin combination square which is likely from the early '50s and is dead on square (checked with a Starrett 12") and it is the most used measuring tool in my apron pocket. The older Lufkins are well made; quality deteriorated in the late 60's into the 70's for some reason; I see a lot of lesser grade Lufkin measuring tools out there at the fleas and garage sales which are no better than the Home Depot or Lowes consumer grade.

[Adam Cherubini]

I have a couple thoughts I hope will help:
1) I think it's a good idea to own and preserve master squares. Starrett #20 line are master squares, square to .0001/6". Some engineer's squares advertise good to .001/1". That's not very good at all. Keep your master squares clean and oiled (or coated with vaseline) until needed to check your everyday squares.

2) For woodwork, I like the Starrett double squares. They are accurate enough as try squares and can function as gages in different ways (checking the depth of a dado say). The trick with these is the sliding joint is susceptible to crud which severly limits the accuracy of the square. Keeping these things clean in a wood shop isn't easy. Theyare also susceptible to wear. I bought several of these on fleabay and all were out of square slightly even after a good cleaning.

3) The accuracy of combination squares with long blades is hampered by the short length of the handle/stock. In woodworking, dust and inconsistencies in surface finish under the handle can have a huge effect on the angle of the blade. In my mind, I wonder how much I'd be willing to pay for sub .001" accuracy when that probably won't translate to the work (or matter).

What I would prefer for woodwork is a try square with a longer handle like Starrett's Builder's Companion. But these are crazy money. What I currently use is a large wooden square of my own making. It can be matched to a master square. Mine stays pretty close. But the tricks to using it include paying attention to the reference face, cleanliness of the stock (handle) and flipping it for square across wide stock. The advantage of a wooden square for me is the feel of it in my hand and against the work and the way my striking knife runs across it's thick blade. I don't like the feeling of the knife cutting the square. In my case, the low angle of the knife is entirely beneath the thickness of the square's blade.

All said, my advice is to get second hand masters (if you buy more than one you can check them against each other). Buy new LV or Starrett double squares. And pick up used Starrett combination squares. 18 and 24" blades are available second hand, sometimes as new old stock for deep discounts. But know that none of these accurate tools directly translate to accurate work. That takes experience and good technique.

A couple more tips learned the hard way:
1) Pretty sure all Starrett double squares have cast heads. As these can see tons of wear, second hand squares may be better left to someone willing to risk it. Only the H33 combination heads are drop forged. As second hand tools, the hardened heads hold some assurance that they haven't worn too terribly much.
2) There are at least 4 different sizes of combination squares that I know of. The model most popular with woodworkers is the C33/H33 and features interchangeable 12/18/24" blades. But there is a larger size that might be good to have. It takes the same size blades as the 12/24" model, but has a significantly larger head. The two smaller sizes I believe take 2 different blades. I think the smallest model can share blades with the 4" double square. The next size up has a 6" blade, (3/4" wide) but this is different from the blade in the 6" double square (#13C).
3) The different blades for the different combination squares are also different in thickness. It is possible to buy replacement blade from other companies (like SPI which I believe is a Swiss front for Chinese manufacturerd tools- not necessarily a bad thing) but make careful note of their thickness. I've not found this approach to be a particularly good deal.

[Jacob Reverb]

I *really* like my Starrett squares (and other instruments).

Take a look at Amazon for some good prices. I would buy new...not worth the risk buying used tools of this type, IMHO.

Buy once and they'll last you all your life (just don't let anyone open paint cans with the rule blade!)

I'd highly recommend the "satin chrome" finish on the rule...very easy to read.

Starrett also makes a very nice 6" rule in satin chrome (C604RE-6) graduated in 1/8", 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" which also has markings on the end (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CybPr0BEL._AA1500_.jpg) that are real useful for setting router bit depth on a router table.

[Bob Lang]

Adam, what kind of crud are you talking about? I've used Starrett squares for nearly forty years and have yet to experience any crud build up, and I am a complete slob in the shop. Keep your Starretts away from the mutton tallow and hot hide glue and you'll be fine. Worst-case scenario is a quick clean and wipe dry with 3-in-1 oil or WD40.

One of the great things about Starrett squares is that they are easily repairable, Starrett has the parts as well as replacement rules. The only part that really wears is the threaded part that slides in the blade groove, and the shape of the business end lets it see a lot of wear and still fit. My grandfather bought his in the 1910s, used them daily as a tool and die maker and they were just fine when he retired in the 1960s. If you have one that is out of square, it's a simple matter to bring it back by judiciously filing one of the little nubs inside the head that the blade rides on. For a good value in a used one (or a new one for that matter) avoid the protractor or centering head. You won't miss them. Likewise with a missing scribe or a broken vial for the level. Brown and Sharpe vintage models are just as good functionally as the Starretts, and often can be found for significantly less used simply because they never get mentioned by the print and online woodworking gurus.

Bob Lang

[lowell holmes]

Wow, Marc, you bought out some of the heavy weights.:)

What I like about my Starrett combination square is that it's square. That may sound dumb, but other squares I've used aren't

Mine was a Christmas gift from SWMBO 7 0r 8 years back. Th $65.00 she paid for it doesn't seem like much now.

[Jim Stewart]

I use the starrett 4-inch and 12-inch adjustable squares. The 12 works well for squaring the inside of inside of furniture and layout. The ability to adjust is important. The 4-inch is small enough to get into places, plus it works well for marking the 90's on dovetails. You will use these devices often. Jim

[Shawn Pixley]

Lufkin made very good tools. I don't know anything from their current line as I have my grandfather's. I bought a 4" square a couple of years ago. I tested it against the Starrett in the case. It was spot on. The others in the same line weren't. I presumed that the Starrett was accurate.

[Adam Cherubini]

Adam, what kind of crud are you talking about?
Real funny Bob.

The cross section of a Starrett combination or double square is shaped like a W. The blade rides on the flattened center hump. Oil attracts dirt and other contaminants. Drying oils, often used by woodworkers and machinists alike, can form a sludge in the V grooves at the base of the W. The Vs fills up, stuff gets under the blade during adjustment. The length of the contact in the stock is such that wear or dust can both have a significant and noticeable effect at the tip of the blade. No theory. Seen it. Cleaned it!

Adam

[george wilson]

personally,I always use solid squares,but as a machinist(also),I need higher accuracy than any adjustable square has. They get worn where they slide. Chris Vesper makes very nice squares and I have several of his.

[Derek Cohen]

I totally agree, George. But keep in mind that Chris is a good friend of mine. Still, if you can afford one of teh Vesper square, then you will never regret it. I would HIGHLY recommend the 4" square. It has (as with his others) a built-in tab that allows one to balance the square on the side of a board.

https://www.vespertools.com.au/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/4__Try_Square_4e5ef62abb2fb.jpg

Regards from a wintery Cape Town at present.

Derek

[Adam Cherubini]

I have a pair of these as well. Note the accuracy. That's .00012" overall. Pretty darned tight. I think were you to ask Chris, he would say that the wood is an advantage over solid metal squares in that it insulates the heat from your hands from effecting the square!!! Machinists I know don't really handle their master squares for this reason. Modern micrometers have similar features for the same reason.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I once saw a good price on a used solid engineers square type square. It was the biggest I've seen. The blade was somewhere around 16 to 24 inches if I remember. Weighed a ton! If I remember right it was from one of the reputable old manufacturers.

I have no idea why I would have needed it or if it was still square, but I wanted it. Unfortunately I was on my bike with a load from the hardware store, and didn't really have anywhere to tether that heavy steel thing, and I didn't have any more money on me. It wasn't there when I went back It was neat seeing one so large, never seen one so huge.

Same shop had a giant wrench, several feet long - not just for of leverage, the end was big enough for a huge nut (can't remember how big) just looked like a giant size version of a regular wrench. Can't imagine what it was for - either ship/bridge work or maybe a big display model?

I like the solid squares with a little notch - makes gauging over some fluff or flash on the corner easier.

[john davey]

I got my Starrett from Walt up a Brass City. He always has some good used ones in stock in multiple lengths....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

For what it's worth, the other day I picked up a Craftsman 7" combination square - it's certainly not in the same league as a Starrett, but I didn't expect that for the price, either. I think it was something like 10 dollars. I picked it up to have a small combo square I didn't mind getting banged around a bit. At this price point, I wouldn't worry about throwing it in my bag or something.

I was quite impressed for what I got for the price though - I'm used to pretty much anything in the combo square field that I can get at a hardware store being junk. I tested a few, and they all seemed to be pretty dead on square, although my testing wasn't as precise as I'd like - I simply did the scribe and flip thing on against a straight edge.

The blade is satin stainless steel, with rather precise etched markings. (Why so many hardware-store squares have those nasty stamped markings is beyond me - I've even seen one with an accidental double-stamp) Everything fits quite well. The major issue I see eventually happening with this square is that the wear strip is thin, not very high, and doesn't extend to the face of the square - I imagine eventually this will become an issue as the square wears.

It was labeled as being made in the USA, which is nice, as well. Given the manufacturer's model number craftsman listed on their website, I think it's made by Swiss Precision Instruments, which I find odd, because I didn't think they made stuff in the States anymore.

Anyway - not a Starrett or Mitutoyo or anything - but for the alarmingly cheap price, I've found it a nice tool, and made domestically. It has the Craftsman warranty - I've no idea if that's really worth anything anymore like it used to be.

I'm tempted to see what their 16" or 12" square is like.

[John Coloccia]

Brown & Sharp, Starrett, and Mitutoyo

Yep.

For engineering squares, I use Groz squares. Everyone I have is spot on, and when I drop one I don't cry. It's funny, though. When people come to my shop, I show them how none of my everyday rules really match up perfectly...Woodcraft, Inca, Shinwa etc. Oh, they're all CLOSE...really close, but they're all off a tiny amount here and there. Then they ask, "Well, which one is right?". That's easy....my Starretts.

[Mark Godlesky]

I love these "Lazarus" threads. I don't know if anyone else noticed but until the recent activity this thread went idle in 2005. I've enjoyed reading the latest additions.

[Jack Camillo]

Buy a Starrett. If you don't, you could be disappointed. If you do, you won't be disappointed. I bought a couple cheap squares (and other tools) in my time. The fit and finish and hence feel in my hands and use was crap. I've learned several times over to cry once.

[Jack Camillo]

I love these "Lazarus" threads. I don't know if anyone else noticed but until the recent activity this thread went idle in 2005. I've enjoyed reading the latest additions.

hhahaha didn't notice!

[george wilson]

I have all kinds of squares,mostly all Starrett. Combination squares,solid squares from 2" to 24"(they get VERY heavy in the large sizes). My most accurate square are my black granite USA made squares. However,for work I bought a granite Chinese square from Shars or CDCO(can't remember). It checked out very accurate against my old(but like new) USA granite squares,at fairly low cost. I certainly cannot guarantee that ALL Chinese granite squares will be dead on. They have spotty quality control. But,if you have at least ONE high quality square,other squares can be bumped with a plastic mallet until it checks with your master square.

You can see through a .0001" crack of light when holding squares together,so real accuracy can be obtained without expensive instruments other than a suitable master square. You cannot easily adjust combo squares. If you must have one,try to get the hardened version so it won't wear as soon and get out of square.

For use around the Square Wheel belt grinder,where water is used frequently,I keep a cheaper import square that has been bumped into suitable accuracy. If it gets a little rust,no great harm done,but I want my Starretts CLEAN! BTW,Lufkin made tools as well as anyone else back in the 40's and 50's.

Since Chris Vesper is a friend,and makes very,very nice tools,his are kept in their own drawer. When he was here for a week,I showed him how to make knurls,and he copied some of mine by pressing them against blanks of drill rod. Perhaps we'll see some nice,old fashioned knurls used on some of his tools one day.