Substitutes for Spruce & Fir

[Jay Michaels]

I'm in the planning stages of a playhouse for my daughters. I'm using Norm Abram's plans (Season 6: Playhouse) and am planning to make the large lumber purchase later this week. I do plenty of woodworking for smaller pieces and furniture, but little carpentry work on larger projects such as this.

I plan to use pressure-treated lumber for the floor joists and CDX plywood for the floor. Siding will be cedar tongue-and-groove that will get painted.

Two substitutes will be needed though:
1. His plans call for "KD Spruce" for the sidewall studs, top plates, headers, roof rafters and ridge, etc... Locally, pine is the overwhelming 'favorite' for framing (kansa...will that suffice where Abram calls for Spruce?

2. For the porch floor, he calls for 1x4" fir decking. Not locally available. Should I go with cedar to prevent rot? (Exposed to elements, but will get painted)

Thank you all in advance for your input!

[Bill Adamsen]

I wonder if one of the PVC substitutes such as Azek or Versatex or Tibmertek for the decking might be suitable alternatives. No splinters!

[Garth Almgren]

I'd just use whatever framing material is most common in your area - it tends to be a regional thing. Lumber yards usually don't bother to narrow it down that much and just call it all SPF, which stands for Spruce/Pine/Fir. Around here it's usually Hemlock or Doug Fir (they call it hem-fir). For a play house, you don't need to be worried about huge structural loads so any kind of SPF should work fine.

I second Bill's opinion about the composite decking. With low square footage the increased cost won't be as noticeable, and it'll last forever.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'd just use whatever framing material is most common in your area - it tends to be a regional thing. Lumber yards usually don't bother to narrow it down that much and just call it all SPF, which stands for Spruce/Pine/Fir. Around here it's usually Hemlock or Doug Fir (they call it hem-fir). For a play house, you don't need to be worried about huge structural loads so any kind of SPF should work fine.

I second Bill's opinion about the composite decking. With low square footage the increased cost won't be as noticeable, and it'll last forever.


Yeah - the names /species vary by region of the country. All he is saying is "use standard framing lumber from the BORG - not pressure treated."

One the composite - yeah, I'd do that, but from the longevity standpoint, I see it differently: It will outlast the first "MY daughter got a splinter in her foot/knee from the floor of the playhouse YOU built!!"

[Brian Tymchak]

Any construction lumber at the BORG I've bought lately is labeled SPF - industry speak for Spruce / Pine / Fir. We usually get Spruce or Pine here but on occasion I got Fir. As others have said, go with what is available.

[Jim Dwight]

Pine is stronger and more weather resistant. It is an upgrade from Spruce in my book

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jay's location will dictate what is available. Some regions - no pine. Some regions - HF or DF. SOme regions SPF. They all meet the structural values for basic framing lumber.

He isn't building a 3-story apartment complex here.

[Peter Quinn]

Jay's location will dictate what is available. Some regions - no pine. Some regions - HF or DF. SOme regions SPF. They all meet the structural values for basic framing lumber.

He isn't building a 3-story apartment complex here.

this exactly. Spruce is the cheapest weakest thing you can buy here, it has a high strength to weight ratio, but it's not very heavy! Use what ever decking you like. Cedar is fine, plastic is fine if your kids like burnt feet.....

[Bill Adamsen]

Does the plastic decking really get that hot? I have always thought I irrationally disliked plastic and have never done a plastic deck install. I thought the heat buildup would be very color dependent.

I'm in the process of sanding some WRC I installed as dock decking ... some in 2005 and some in 2002. The desks were coated (and subsequently cleaned and recoated) with Cabot's ATO and most looks fantastic still. They were built as removable panels. I designed them so that none would weigh more than 80#, and they could be removed and stored for winter. My suspicion is that some were stored right-side up and some upside down. And I suspect the latter is what looks better.

Anyway, mention only because in my opinion, ten years is a pretty good life to get out of something like this, and even if they require rebuilding (new wood) the value was pretty good. Western Red Cedar, C & Better S1S2E is pretty nice to work with, smooth side up of course. All these decks were fastened from the back with ss screws - length selection is important. I have never heard a complaint about splinters, and I don't remember getting any building them.

[Reinis Kanders]

Use cedar, plastic is ugly and cedar ages nicely, we have cedar deck and little kids, no splinters so far.

[Peter Quinn]

Does the plastic decking really get that hot?

Yes, it can. I'm guessing the darker colors are worse, but something about plastic, it absorbs the suns heat in a way that wood just doesn't and puts it right back into your feet if bare feet. Ouch. I've stepped on a light/medium blue grey color at a friends and though...hey, lets get some eggs and put my sandles back on. I have a really bad old PT SYP deck on the back of my home, I sanded the snot out of it about 10 years ago, my kids don't have splinters. Wood is good.

[Lee Schierer]

Does the plastic decking really get that hot?

My front and rear decks were covered with Veranda plastic wood composite and it is warm under the feet in the hot sun, but I wouldn't say it is uncomfortable to walk on it. I guess it would depend on how sensitive your feet are and what part of the country you live in. I find the composite decking much less slippery in the winter than our wood deck was since the composite doesn't absorb water.

As far as flooring inside a play house goes, it wouldn't see much sun.

[Prashun Patel]

Before you say plastic is ugly, I'd take a good look at the new products out there. The composite decking gets better and better looking each year. I've had my Trex deck for 10 years and I'll share this: it doesn't look like wood; all the grain has worn off and the color has muted to a rather unnatural - but not unpleasant - maroon. It doesn't get super hot, but we're always using shoes out there anyway - more to protect us from tracking things inside. It is not maintenance-free though. It does require washing, and if you have areas of shade, it can develop algae that needs to be scrubbed off. An aggressive power washer will leave scars.

I'm amazed each year how better and better the products look, though. The manufacturers tend to leapfrog over each other in terms of what's the best looking one that year.

My guess though is that for a playhouse, you'll be dismantling it in 5 years anyway, before the composite starts to look dated. My first concern would be with splinters, which is where composite shines.

[Kent A Bathurst]

My guess though is that for a playhouse, you'll be dismantling it in 5 years anyway......

Prashun - ye of little faith.

He wants it to last 30 years, for the grandkids! ;)

[Prashun Patel]

By the time our grandkids are around, nobody will be allowed to play outside anymore. In fact, kids will no longer be able to play at all. Parents will do all the playing for them, while the kids are kept inside away from light, heat, germs, and any danger. We'll store them in produce bins in the refrigerator. There will be no need for play houses. Then, when they turn 21, we'll berate them for being spoiled, overweight and not having a spouse.

Boy, what side of the bed did *I* get up on today?

[Mel Fulks]

Prashun, that is a dark vision indeed. But, I'm gonna invest in the produce bin industry, thanks for the tip!

[Sam Murdoch]

By the time our grandkids are around, nobody will be allowed to play outside anymore. In fact, kids will no longer be able to play at all. Parents will do all the playing for them, while the kids are kept inside away from light, heat, germs, and any danger. We'll store them in produce bins in the refrigerator. There will be no need for play houses. Then, when they turn 21, we'll berate them for being spoiled, overweight and not having a spouse.

Boy, what side of the bed did *I* get up on today?

… and so the increase in childhood allergies - let them eat dirt! OH BOY I'm in for it now :eek:.

To Jay and the subject at hand - you could use Advantech as your flooring - eliminate the CDX plywood and the boards all together - especially if you are painting. This will make a very rugged and long lasting single thickness flooring.

I agree with Prashun that as composite decking material has evolved it has gotten much better. Azek is excellent (there are other brands too). The heat won't be a factor in a covered building that is ventilated with operable windows or a screen door - even on a open sunny deck the better composites are perfectly fine. Buy some 1" thick planks and screw them directly to the joists - with 1/8" spacing between planks. You might staple down a layer of plastic insect screening over the joists if you want to keep the bugs out or go ahead and lay your flooring over the CDX plywood subfloor.

Alternatively you could use T&G decking boards and nail those down directly to your joist with no spacing except at the perimeter - about 1/4" to 3/8" both long edges to allow for movement. Cedar is pretty soft as a flooring. If that might be all you have in your area I would certainly consider the AZEK or single 3/4" painted Advantech.

[Kent A Bathurst]

By the time our grandkids are around, nobody will be allowed to play outside anymore. In fact, kids will no longer be able to play at all. Parents will do all the playing for them, while the kids are kept inside away from light, heat, germs, and any danger. We'll store them in produce bins in the refrigerator. There will be no need for play houses. Then, when they turn 21, we'll berate them for being spoiled, overweight and not having a spouse.

Boy, what side of the bed did *I* get up on today?


Lemme take a shot - - - neighbor kids been running around your yard and through the flower beds, right? :p

[Reinis Kanders]

Plastic just does not work for me. One can easily spot plastic, it just sticks out, especially the white stuff for fences and sidings, etc. It stands out, sometimes because it is too shiny, sometimes because it is too uniform it never looks right. Maybe once everything is plastic then wood will start to seem unnatural, sort of like a trim in a car:)

[Jay Michaels]

Fantastic responses - all of them. Thank you all so much.
For the framing, I went with the standard SYP studs that were available for next-to-nothing at the local Menards. Nice and straight.
For the porch decking: I'm going to scout out synthetic options to see how they look and feel. Since I'm covering a relatively small area, the cost is not a big concern.

To follow up with another question:
Norm Abram uses pressure-treated 2x6 floor joists on 24-inch centers (!) and builds the floor out of a single layer of 1/2" CDX plywood. That is what I purchased at the store over the weekend when I had access to a truck.
Two questions arose after I read more about flooring:

(1) Is the 24" spacing of the joists too wide? It is a small playhouse -- just 96"x81", so perhaps I'm over-thinking this and that is sufficient. Additionally, it should never carry a heavy load on that floor - all walls are secured around the perimeter with the exception of the front wall -- and there is 2x6" blocking between the joists where that front wall attaches to the floor.

(2) If I have the floor suspended above the ground -- the joists will rest on concrete deck blocks and the plywood then attaches on top of the floor joists -- and I coat the top with paint, is CDX plywood sufficient, or should I be going for some kind of pressure-treated plywood due to proximity to the ground and exposure (from underneath?). Also, I've read in a few places that people don't recommend anything under 3/4" for flooring. But again, this is just a playhouse, so I'm thinking it'll be sufficient. The plywood floor will get little exposure to the weather from the top as it will all be inside (and the house will have functioning windows and doors to lightly seal the interior). I'd like to stick with the 1/2" CDX since that's what I already bought, but at the same time, I don't want to be stubborn with it and then regret it in a few years if problems are likely to develop.


For reference, I'm in Kansas, so this playhouse will be subjected to plenty of wind, rain, hail, snow, heat, drought, etc... Heavy spring rains, temps in the triple-digits in the summer, well below zero in the winter with snow...etc...


As you can tell, I'm probably over-thinking many aspects of this project, but I'm just hoping to get it right the first time.

Thanks again everyone for your quick and thorough replies.

[Kent A Bathurst]

24" OC and 1/2 ply is fine for a kid's playhouse.

If you run the risk of getting tossed out of the house and are forced to bunk there for a few nights, then you might want 16" & 3/4". :D

BTW - Which part of Ks?

[Wade Lippman]

Does the plastic decking really get that hot? I have always thought I irrationally disliked plastic and have never done a plastic deck install. I thought the heat buildup would be very color dependent.


Our last two houses had PVC decks and never got hot. About medium dark.

[Mark Kornell]

The span tables say that SPF#2 is good to a 9'-0" span at 24" OC and light load.

But for the cost of 2 extra 2x6s, I'd be tempted to go with 16" centers because of the thinner plywood.