PDA

View Full Version : WTB New Laser - Mainstream



Mike Clarke
05-11-2015, 12:30 AM
I am starting to consider my next laser purchase. My main focus is on 3 manufacturers Trotec, Epilog and Universal. I am really just considering western built mainstream lasers. For example Vytek is not really what I would consider a mainstream laser. I am not considering the Chinese lasers even though a couple of them are tempting. The GCC/Pinnacle is the most western-like and the cost reflect that. Rabbit Laser is seemingly impressive for the money. The fear of lack of US support is the biggest deterrent. I want a relatively problem free machine to use daily, not tinker. I already have 2 hobbies I don't get to!

Is there any reason to not consider one of the 3 (Trotec, Epilog and Universal) or to add another mfg to the mix? All 3 have some similar options but am leaning toward Trotec, based on what I have been seeing on here. I always did like the way Epilog and ULS did certain things and of course all have their faults. I have not been to a show in years and have not kept up with the latest/greatest. I have not seen any of the current offerings in person. I often work 5 really full days a week and 2 half days on the weekend.

We do a mix of products but will probably just stick with a CO2 at this time with fiber being a consideration for the future. Certain things are neat but unless I can afford to buy them and never make a dime off of it I stick with what I can make profit. I would love to play with the fiber and a camera registration, but am not sure how I could convert that to sales as of yet. Certain things like air assist are obviously a must. I am not into engraving photos, so the 1-Touch Laser Photo while intriguing is something I probably never use. If I can add a feature later, then it is nice to have that option sitting out there. I have just come to the reallity that there are certain thing I just can't sell.

I am not sure what size we are wanting at the moment. We may get a smaller unit and then a larger or vice versa. I can always use a larger machine even though often it offers no advantage. I tend to keep a lot of our equipment going a long time. I think our ULS was 18x24 or 3Xish and currently use a 24 x 36 Xenetech. It will be hard to take a reduction in size so it will probably be a 100 and/or a 400 and skip the 300. 24 x 48 would be the dream as that is the full sheet of engraving plastic. Last Friday I got a call for a 24 x18 plaque needed for Sunday and it was nice engraving it in one pass. Really not much time to spare on that deal & I wanted to do it once, with the cost of $100+ plaque also being a factor.

The drivers, ease of use/maintenance and reliability are big considerations as well as support when things go bad. I probably don't need much in the way of hand holding. (other than figuring out what brand to buy:confused:) For example: Raw speed is nice but not as big of a deal to me as precise location of parts. A rock solid zero is something I tend to rely on. We also use CorelDraw for most of what we do. One thing I really like about the Xenetech is the ability to use my rotary files and CorelDraw on the laser. I have more than one application that mix the sources on the same job.

Any opinions offered will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike Clark
Screen name has an E at the end and can't remember why when I signed up.

Dave Sheldrake
05-11-2015, 7:26 AM
Engraving = Trotech
Cutting = High power Chinese / flatbed (think 220+ watts) (US purchased)

Vytek are very good but the big machines can be expensive (I just sold my biggest repos galvo from Vytek as it didn't get used)

cheers

Dave

Mike Null
05-11-2015, 7:31 AM
Trotec--hands down the best equipment you mentioned.

I don't know where you're located but there is an NBM show in Indianapolis in early June.

Addendum: mine is entering its ninth year. I've had one week total down time in that period and that was to have my tube re-manufactured. I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

Keith Outten
05-11-2015, 7:52 AM
I second Mike's Trotec recommendation based on speed, reliability, accuracy and excellent tech support.

Mike Clarke
05-11-2015, 9:19 AM
Well, y'all are just taking all the glamour and drama out of this decision making process! That is actually nice for a change.

After owning some uncommon cars I now gravitate to common and ubiquitous items. Dave, I'm not going to hold a grudge about the whole MG / Austin Healey thing! I owned an Alfa Romeo also - Slow Learner Syndrome. I like things that work in a consistent manner. My Crown Vic gave me 20 years and wasn't much more than some others cars you just don't see on the road any longer. It was easy to sell off as well.

Thanks for the advice over the morning cup of coffee.

Now I have to get to work & get others involved to sip from the Kool-Aid labeled with a 'T'. In all seriousness I will still give all 3 some looking over. So far the order of preference does seem to be Trotec, Epilog and ULS.

Ross Moshinsky
05-11-2015, 12:53 PM
Engraving = Trotech
Cutting = High power Chinese / flatbed (think 220+ watts) (US purchased)

Vytek are very good but the big machines can be expensive (I just sold my biggest repos galvo from Vytek as it didn't get used)

cheers

Dave

I don't have the same level of experience as Dave with Chinese machines, but this is probably how I'd handle things. The only thing is I don't know if I'd go with a flat bed.

I went through looking at all the manufacturers about 6 months ago. I was leaning towards Trotec but found a used ULS machine. If I had to do it again, I'd probably buy a Speedy 100. In 2 months I'll be able to really tell you what I think.

Jeanette Brewer
05-11-2015, 5:11 PM
Where are you located?

As you can imagine, per my signature, I don't share the same opinion as others in this thread. I'd highly recommend going to a show near you (OR getting a demo from each manufacturer's distributor in your area) so you can make the decision based on which system is best for your particular application.

Keith Winter
05-11-2015, 5:19 PM
Trotec hands down if you have a production environment. Epilog is also well liked and a nice machine, but I'm a Trotec guy. We've been very happy with the 2 Trotecs we have and the support they offer. Make sure and get the 3 year warranty (they throw it in at most shows as part of the package). Not sure where you are located but talk with Josh if you're at one of the shows or Chris if you're in the midwest region. They'll help you out. Both are very knowledgeable.

Keith Winter
05-11-2015, 5:21 PM
Dave all things considered would you really go with a Chinese in a production environment for cutting? Or would the reliability of the Trotec/Epilog win you over there too? Any idea what a big chinese cutter runs, say 120w these days?

Dave Sheldrake
05-11-2015, 6:47 PM
Hiya Keith,

I have and do on a daily basis. For large volume cutting I go with a Chinese made but UK distributed set of machines and basically treat them as consumables. For metal cutting I wouldn't touch a Chinese direct import (think: BOMB) but for day to day murder work the big flatbeds are great.
180 watt EFR tubes are stable and last on average 5 years in industrial use at 95% power settings.

Cost wise I'm not sure how it works out in the US but over here figure on the baby flatbeds 2440 x 1220) costing £12,000 and the bigger 2.5m x 1.5m costing about £16,000 in 180 watt format.

For precision stuff I tend to go with the real industrial kit (Mazak, Haas, Mitsubishi) but they are expensive to run for small jobs or low number runs. (think $40 an hour to turn them on given all the extra associated running costs) but these are $1.5m+ machines so can't really make a comparison to be honest. (when a machine that costs 1.5 million can't outrun a machine that costs $50,000 there are some real problems ;))

I love Chinese machines, I won't give a direct import floor space as I don't have the time or inclination to be chasing support staff all day but a UK imported machine that I can pick up the phone, call Chris at HPC and have it fitted and working that week is exactly what I need :)

All that said, if you are doing custom engraving work or that kind of thing then a Chinese machine could well be a bad choice(a really bad choice), they are simply too slow in general unless you go down the galvo route but for cutting up a lot of sheets of materials I've yet to find anything at under $100k that will beat it for what I need.
I guess mine likely run 1,000 full sheets (2440 x 1220) a month at the moment so if they last a year a shot I'm more than happy at that.

cheers

Dave

Bill George
05-11-2015, 6:54 PM
I am very happy with my ULS laser, its built to industrial quality and seems to have one of the lowest number of repair questions posted on here. Yes I know what industrial electrical and electronics looks like, I worked as a controls electrician in a number of manufacturing plants.

Tim Bateson
05-11-2015, 8:00 PM
My Epilog has been a real workhorse. It runs day after day with minimum maintenance and only 12 hours of downtime (motherboard) in the past 7.5 years. Oh btw - I bought it used and it was very much abused while being shipped.

Trotec has a great rep & seems well deserved, but unless something changes in the next 2 weeks, Epilog will be my next machine too. The price isn't just a little different, it's a LOT different.

Ross Moshinsky
05-11-2015, 8:15 PM
I am very happy with my ULS laser, its built to industrial quality and seems to have one of the lowest number of repair questions posted on here. Yes I know what industrial electrical and electronics looks like, I worked as a controls electrician in a number of manufacturing plants.

I'd disagree. The ULS's drive system is not "industrial" quality. It's one of the things I'm most disappointed about. The belts are a joke.


My Epilog has been a real workhorse. It runs day after day with minimum maintenance and only 12 hours of downtime (motherboard) in the past 7.5 years. Oh btw - I bought it used and it was very much abused while being shipped.

Trotec has a great rep & seems well deserved, but unless something changes in the next 2 weeks, Epilog will be my next machine too. The price isn't just a little different, it's a LOT different.

You should get another quote, unless prices have changed dramatically in 6 months or you're looking at something special. I found all the lasers to be priced within a $2000 when talking about the 18x24 variety with 60-80W. The price difference was typically justified (Trotec was the most expensive but also offered 80W vs 60w).

Scott Shepherd
05-11-2015, 8:33 PM
You should get another quote, unless prices have changed dramatically in 6 months or you're looking at something special. I found all the lasers to be priced within a $2000 when talking about the 18x24 variety with 60-80W. The price difference was typically justified (Trotec was the most expensive but also offered 80W vs 60w).

+1 on that. I priced the Fusions at the ISA Show in Vegas about 3 weeks ago and their combo system was actually more expensive than the Trotec Flexx System by several thousand dollars.

Mike Clarke
05-11-2015, 9:54 PM
Thanks for the feed back. As far as the conflicting views - I am used to it, at least I know of some issues to find out about.

One thing I find frustrating is the inability to get a rough idea on price.

Kudos to Epilog for at least having this on their site:
"Our entry-level unit is the 30 watt Zing 16 and that system starts from just $7,995 (US price only) -- a small investment for such a powerful piece of machinery! You can even lease to own the Zing 16 with payments as low as $150 a month (with approved credit). With a payment as low as $150 per month, you can pay for the system as you make money with the new cutting & engraving services you offer.

The cost of our various laser systems is determined by speed (stepper vs. servo motors), engraving table size, and laser wattage (ranging from 30 watts to 120 watts) and range from $7,995 to $45,000 (US price only). If you'd like help determining which laser is right for your application or receive pricing information, call us at +1 303 277 1188, or fill out our request form (https://www.epiloglaser.com/request-information/request-information.htm).

The Zing 24 looks like a nice machine - but no idea on ballpark price.

I think Chris Cudmore is the Trotec guy that I am waiting to talk to.

Keith Winter
05-11-2015, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the feed back. As far as the conflicting views - I am used to it, at least I know of some issues to find out about.

One thing I find frustrating is the inability to get a rough idea on price.

Kudos to Epilog for at least having this on their site:
"Our entry-level unit is the 30 watt Zing 16 and that system starts from just $7,995 (US price only) -- a small investment for such a powerful piece of machinery! You can even lease to own the Zing 16 with payments as low as $150 a month (with approved credit). With a payment as low as $150 per month, you can pay for the system as you make money with the new cutting & engraving services you offer.

The cost of our various laser systems is determined by speed (stepper vs. servo motors), engraving table size, and laser wattage (ranging from 30 watts to 120 watts) and range from $7,995 to $45,000 (US price only). If you'd like help determining which laser is right for your application or receive pricing information, call us at +1 303 277 1188 (tel:+1 303 277 1188), or fill out our request form (https://www.epiloglaser.com/request-information/request-information.htm).

The Zing 24 looks like a nice machine - but no idea on ballpark price.

I think Chris Cudmore is the Trotec guy that I am waiting to talk to.

Yeap Chris Cudmore out of Arlington. Good guy knows his machines really well, you're in good hands.

Kev Williams
05-11-2015, 11:56 PM
Once I post this, you'll get told the machines are trouble-prone and customer service sucks, but here goes anyway-

At least LOOK at Gravograph. They now have a 24 x 24", up to 80w LS900XT with servo steppers that runs 156" per second.
As for trouble-prone, I doubt they're any more prone to trouble than any other machine. AT least mine sure aren't...

Mike Null
05-12-2015, 6:35 AM
What customer service?

Bill George
05-12-2015, 10:07 AM
I'd disagree. The ULS's drive system is not "industrial" quality. It's one of the things I'm most disappointed about. The belts are a joke.

Belts are belts, when they wear you replace. Not rocket science. I guess as an electrician I was looking at the machine from a construction - repair viewpoint. Belts are nickel and dime, power supplies and control boards plus the low cost tube recharge is what I am talking about.

Ross Moshinsky
05-12-2015, 10:08 AM
Once I post this, you'll get told the machines are trouble-prone and customer service sucks, but here goes anyway-

At least LOOK at Gravograph. They now have a 24 x 24", up to 80w LS900XT with servo steppers that runs 156" per second.
As for trouble-prone, I doubt they're any more prone to trouble than any other machine. AT least mine sure aren't...

The rotary machines are trouble free, from what I've experienced. The lasers are relatively trouble free but EXPENSIVE when a problem does come up.

A linear rail & bearing cost $900 +/- several years ago. Hiwin alternative was $350 I believe.
A new 30W tube I believe is in the $3000 ballpark. Recharge from an alternative source is about $1200 I believe. A 30W "new" tube from the other brands is sub $3000, I believe often around $1500.
A new or re-manufactured main board is around $2000. The other guys are in the hundreds.

Customer support? It was better the last time I called but it's still subpar. Their answer to everything is send a tech out. Just for the tech to visit costs $600.

Lastly, their print driver is buggy. Sending the jobs from Gravostyle is pretty good but the actual print driver is buggy. Now maybe a newer version is better, but the ones I have are just flat out buggy and most of the features don't work or work how their supposed to.

I'm not going to argue the machines aren't built well. They are. My LS100 engraves considerably faster than my VLS6.60 and does a better job of it. The issue with Gravograph is the software, support, and prices. I wish I could recommend them, but I just can't.

Ross Moshinsky
05-12-2015, 10:18 AM
Belts are belts, when they wear you replace. Not rocket science. I guess as an electrician I was looking at the machine from a construction - repair viewpoint. Belts are nickel and dime, power supplies and control boards plus the low cost tube recharge is what I am talking about.

Since when is $550 every 3 years nickel and dime repair? It's not crazy money but I'd hardly consider that cheap.

Bill George
05-12-2015, 11:48 AM
Since when is $550 every 3 years nickel and dime repair? It's not crazy money but I'd hardly consider that cheap.

I've purchased many of those type of belts not anywhere close to your price. Are you paying someone to replace?

Highest price belt listed is $39... Link> http://parts.engravingsys.com/Belts_c_22.html

Scott Shepherd
05-12-2015, 12:02 PM
I've purchased many of those type of belts not anywhere close to your price. Are you paying someone to replace?

Highest price belt listed is $39... Link> http://parts.engravingsys.com/Belts_c_22.html

I think it's $500 for the kit, which includes belts,bearings, and I think bearing shafts and pulleys. Ross is lucky, we've been replacing them every 12-18 months on the Universal.

Bill George
05-12-2015, 12:08 PM
I think it's $500 for the kit, which includes belts,bearings, and I think bearing shafts and pulleys. Ross is lucky, we've been replacing them every 12-18 months on the Universal.
So they are wear items. Kind of like changing belts on you lawn mower or car. The more you use it the faster it wears out, cost of making money!!

Scott Shepherd
05-12-2015, 12:16 PM
So they are wear items. Kind of like changing belts on you lawn mower or car. The more you use it the faster it wears out, cost of making money!!

Yes, they are wear items. I think the point being, there aren't any of those wear items on the Trotec. I think you can get 7-10 years off a belt, bearing, pulleys on them. The difference is on the Universal, the belts are the standard 1/4" wide belts used to drive mechanical things, and on the Trotec, they are about 1" wide, with Kevlar in them, I think. It's really no comparison in the built quality between the two machines. Both are good, one is just superior in the build quality. On the ULS, everything is exposed, the belts, bearings, rollers, etc, while on the Trotec is sealed up pretty tight so none of that debris ever gets to the wear items.

Bill George
05-12-2015, 1:00 PM
Thanks Scott for pointing out the differences, but what is the cost purchase difference between the two machines? I am assuming since the Trotec has heavier construction its costs more?

I would think since belts wear faster than bearings you would replace them more often than bearings. I have replaced a lot of belts on machines, ball or roller bearings seldom.

Scott Shepherd
05-12-2015, 1:08 PM
Bill, as far as I know, the prices for the machines are about the same, once you've negotiated them down. I know we initially didn't consider Trotec because they were thought to be so expensive. It wasn't until we needed a second laser and saw one at a trade show that we had our eyes opened. We paid about the same for our 75W Trotec as we did for our 45W Universal. Of course time makes the cost come down on lower wattage machines, so that's not a fair comparison, but it shows that the pricing wasn't as expensive as we had thought.

As far as the belts, bearings, etc. Universal uses these little ceramic rollers on the rail. Those ceramic rollers have bearings in them and there's a small precision shaft that holds that all in place, with wavy washers in there too. It's recommended that when you replace the belts, you replace those rollers, bearings, and shafts, if I recall correctly. The little bitty shafts are really expensive. I think it's over $150 for the 3 little tiny shafts. You can certainly replace just the belt, but we found that it's important to replace it all if you are dealing with super fine detail, which, in our case, we were. One bearing on one ceramic roller slightly going bad and it can show up in your engraving with odd patterns, etc in your engraving areas, or cause some small details to do funny things.

The ceramic rollers aren't cheap either, so I think that's where the cost over $500 comes in, the belts, bearings, pulleys, rollers, etc. It's a "Maintenance Kit" already put together and sold like that.

Bill George
05-12-2015, 1:35 PM
Thanks for the education Scott, I am sure others have benefited also.

Ross Moshinsky
05-12-2015, 2:04 PM
I've purchased many of those type of belts not anywhere close to your price. Are you paying someone to replace?

Highest price belt listed is $39... Link> http://parts.engravingsys.com/Belts_c_22.html

As Steve/Scott pointed out, it's a kit that you replace. Every system has it's flaws. Every system. The ULS system's main flaw is the drive system. Steppers+thin belts+lower quality bearings lead to higher maintenance costs and slower engraving.

Your lawn mower comparison is not accurate. What would be accurate is you compared a John Deer vs a Honda mower and the Honda mower needed new belts every 6 years and the John Deer every 8. That's what we're talking about here. The ULS needs the drive system refurbished more regularly than most lasers.

My Gravograph machine has a much better drive system, but that didn't keep my linear rail bearing from failing very early in life. The belts are exposed, but are very hefty. In our type of environment, I honestly think I could go 10+ years without replacing the belt.

Paul Phillips
05-12-2015, 2:20 PM
I think it's $500 for the kit, which includes belts,bearings, and I think bearing shafts and pulleys. Ross is lucky, we've been replacing them every 12-18 months on the Universal.

Steve, FWIW, are you talking about both the X and Y belts and bearing all together? I just bought the X belt and bearing kit and it was $219, I haven't had need to replace the Y belts yet. I do much more cutting than engraving though.

Scott Shepherd
05-12-2015, 3:11 PM
Steve, FWIW, are you talking about both the X and Y belts and bearing all together? I just bought the X belt and bearing kit and it was $219, I haven't had need to replace the Y belts yet. I do much more cutting than engraving though.

Yes, replacing everything in both axis. I think it also includes the bearings and pulleys that are on the Y-Axis. It's been a while since we replaced them all and they are due for it. It hasn't gotten as much usage as it used to since we try to do most everything on the Trotec these days.

Bill George
05-12-2015, 5:11 PM
Still again, Even $300 a year/ divided by the amount of money the machine is making you when it wears out those belts. I would not consider that amount excessive, I would consider it the cost of doing business.

Robert Tepper
05-13-2015, 12:02 AM
My Trotec runs 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week. Two days down time in three years.

Robert

Chip Jordan
05-13-2015, 8:27 AM
I must be doing something wrong? Going on 6 years and only replaced one limit switch, one lens an mirror. Don't use every day but 5 to 6 hours at time 2 to 3 times a week.