Oak treads on stairs - new project

[Zack Lancaster]

I have a long set of stairs (13 steps) that lead from my entry way up into my home. They are currently carpeted and no matter how hard we try, they get nasty and dirty and we're sick of calling in the carpet cleaner. So, it's time for some wood treads! They will be done in oak to match the rest of the home. My questions:


Can I use Oak plywood for the risers or do you suggest hardwood?
What is the best saw to cut them with? Assuming sliding compound miter, but would the Grizzly T25552 - Track Saw Master Pack (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Track-Saw-Master-Pack/T25552) work as well? As some may remember, I am suffering from a lack of good saws. Last time I did stairs I was flipping materials and adjusting and re-adjusting my 10" Ryobi saw and it was painful, but I made it work and it came out pretty well. This time around I have many more cuts.. so....
On the small set of stairs I did I installed right over the top of the old stairs, is that OK to do for this larger set?
The bottom set is a larger step and I need to 'join' some planks together, which means I will need to rip the rounded nose off the pre-cut steps (Oak treads are from Lowe's, 48" by 11.5" by 1.5" thick, with a pre-formed nose)

[Peter Quinn]

You cannot add 1.5" to the height of stairs without compromising the code requirements for consistency in rise from tread to tread, primary problem is at the top landing and first step. 3/8"' variation is your maximum variation, you will be adding 1.5" to the first rise, subtracting it from the last and keeping it equal in between. Walking stair at that voilate this is dangerous and uncomfortable, bad call for your primary entrance. You won't be raising the floor by 1.5" will you? They may caps for adding hardwood to carpeted stairs, they are much thinner, with a nose attached. Better idea unless I'm not understanding the whole project. On the risers I prefer solids for the best work, easier to sand and repair going forward, plywood is essentially in unrepairable. But I've seen plywood used plenty, mostly for paint grade risers. So your call, your $$$.

[Zack Lancaster]

You cannot add 1.5" to the height of stairs without compromising the code requirements for consistency in rise from tread to tread, primary problem is at the top landing and first step. 3/8"' variation is your maximum variation, you will be adding 1.5" to the first rise, subtracting it from the last and keeping it equal in between. Walking stair at that voilate this is dangerous and uncomfortable, bad call for your primary entrance. You won't be raising the floor by 1.5" will you? They may caps for adding hardwood to carpeted stairs, they are much thinner, with a nose attached. Better idea unless I'm not understanding the whole project. On the risers I prefer solids for the best work, easier to sand and repair going forward, plywood is essentially in unrepairable. But I've seen plywood used plenty, mostly for paint grade risers. So your call, your $$$.

ah ok, good point. On my small set of stairs I 'did' raise the bottom floor when I installed the tile (underlayment) so it worked our perfectly. So I should rip it all out and replace them then I assume. :*(

[George Bokros]

You should rip out all the treads and risers to stay in code.

[Justin Ludwig]

I'd use solid wood. I, personally, wouldn't attack a stair job without a Dbl Bevel SCMS... unless you'll be covering joints/butts with scribe molding or some sort of applied moldings.

Good luck.

[Tom M King]

313200I'd rip out the whole thing, and put in housed stringers. This is a picture I already had in the "manage attachments" file here. I don't remember what I took this picture for, but it's just a couple of years old, and we built the stairs in 1991. Housed stringers eliminate having to cut each thread and riser perfectly, and as you can see, makes a lasting perfectly fitting set of stairs. These were built with a router template I made on site. It's easier to buy boards wide enough to eliminate a bunch of edge jointed pieces now than it was 24 years ago.

[Zack Lancaster]

I'd use solid wood. I, personally, wouldn't attack a stair job without a Dbl Bevel SCMS... unless you'll be covering joints/butts with scribe molding or some sort of applied moldings.

Good luck.

When I did my small set of stairs the walls were totally uneven so I built a small apparatus to transfer the uneven distances to the treads, then carefully used my 10" and table saw to cut them down to size.. it was a PITA

[Zack Lancaster]

I measured the current stairs. Bottom step is 7.25, other steps are 7 and top step is 7.25ish

[Justin Ludwig]

I didn't remember where I read this, or if it's even valid - "1/8" deviation in stairs causes people to trip."

Tom's advice brings to mind the stringers, I used plywood and molded the top that road the wall. The wall was wavy and we had to scribe trim each riser and tread to snug up to the stringer.

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[Jim Dwight]

I did a long flight in our Pittsburgh house that sounds like your job. It was carpeted and we didn't like it. The treads, under the carpet, were 2X construction lumber. I cut the nosing piece off (worst part of the whole job), put 3/8 solid oak flooring on top, added a custom nosing of oak, added a oak cove molding to cover the gap under the tread between the old tread and the old riser, used spackle to smooth the rough plywood riser, and then clear finished the tread and cove molding while painting the riser. We were happy with the end result. I did every other stair so we could still go up and down. Then I came back and did the rest.

Having a couple rises off by 0.25 complicates things. You won't be any worse off until the top and there I am not sure I know what you are calling the top step. Is it the rise before the next floor surface? If so, you may be fine. It would decrease to a little under 7 inches but you wouldn't be more than 1/2" off on any rise. Maybe not quite code but 1/8" is unlikely to cause somebody to fall.

I have a "homeowners special" in the current house that looks nice but has over a 2 inch difference in the rises. We've gotten used to it but it is way too big. The biggest rise is something like 10 inches. Also too large even if it was consistent. Most are a little under 8 inches. I will probably have to add a step to make it work. And it is L-shaped with diagonal steps to add steps. It is on the long list of things to fix. It will have to come out and be redone. It's not a small job. I'd like to salvage the treads to save money but that will also require more work.

[Zack Lancaster]

That is basically what i was going to do. I was going to cut off the nose, install oak treads and oak risers, trim it out with a little cove. (just like my other set)

[Peter Quinn]

This (http://www.lowes.com/pd_326988-1487-1142OAKRT_0__?productId=3191553) is the type of product I've seen used to go over a plywood rough stair case when carpet is removed. This particular one is 5/8" thick, which would actually work for your stair except at the bottom. But it works at the top, and frankly with all practicality in mind its better to violate the code at the bottom landing than at the top on the first tread going down! Less distance to fall. Or you could raise the landing too if conditions allow. Rip it all out is very thorough and probably best practice if you want a fine staircase, but thats a big undertaking, possibly huge depending on your site conditions, and not one I would casually recommend as a first option. If you were going to rip it out, the housed stringer stair is a great option, you can actually have them made by some stair companies at very reasonable cost these days as most of the heavy routing is done by CNC, so worth getting a quote before you go all DIY crazy, add up all the materials and time, it may make more sense to buy it. Nice thing is you could buy the stairs, prefinish them, and then the old stair comes out and the new goes in in one day, so you don't have to loose access to your home for long.

[Zack Lancaster]

This (http://www.lowes.com/pd_326988-1487-1142OAKRT_0__?productId=3191553) is the type of product I've seen used to go over a plywood rough stair case when carpet is removed. This particular one is 5/8" thick, which would actually work for your stair except at the bottom. But it works at the top, and frankly with all practicality in mind its better to violate the code at the bottom landing than at the top on the first tread going down! Less distance to fall. Or you could raise the landing too if conditions allow. Rip it all out is very thorough and probably best practice if you want a fine staircase, but thats a big undertaking, possibly huge depending on your site conditions, and not one I would casually recommend as a first option. If you were going to rip it out, the housed stringer stair is a great option, you can actually have them made by some stair companies at very reasonable cost these days as most of the heavy routing is done by CNC, so worth getting a quote before you go all DIY crazy, add up all the materials and time, it may make more sense to buy it. Nice thing is you could buy the stairs, prefinish them, and then the old stair comes out and the new goes in in one day, so you don't have to loose access to your home for long.

I think my plan is to rip the bottom step out and replace with the raw oak step, rest should be ok to cut nose off and cover over. Top rise should be fine. if it looks to shallow I'll consider ripping it out and using raw oak with a smaller (1/4"" riser. Need to see how much variance there really is once I have the carpet off. I am making guesses until I see. No matter what, I will make sure that the variances aren't way out of line. It all depends on how thick the original steps are. The ones to my basement were particle board that was 1" thick with 3 strings. Not sure what these are, assuming the same..

[Kent A Bathurst]

OTOH - -

If you tour ancient castles in Great Britain, it is interesting to note how the built they stone spiral stairs.

First, they turn clockwise as you go up. Most people are right-handed, and as a right-hander, you cannot effectively swing a sword on a clockwise spiral - it is all blind back-hand work. The coming-down-at-you-counterclockwise defenders had a better view, and could use right-hand forehand swings.

Second, 2 or 3 times in the rise, they had one step that was a different height. Rascal invaders would trip on the way up. Defenders had already tripped a hundred times, and knew instinctively where those traps were laid.

Don't suppose the code allows for stairs designed to help repel invaders, do they.

[Jason Roehl]

For cutting treads, I bought a tool similar to this (never ended up using it, as the job fell through):

http://www.amazon.com/Stair-Tread-Gauge-Shelf-Layout/dp/B00JUOS4RS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1431124674&sr=8-4&keywords=stair+tread+jig

I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to rig up something that is functionally the same.

[Sam Murdoch]

For cutting treads, I bought a tool similar to this (never ended up using it, as the job fell through):

http://www.amazon.com/Stair-Tread-Gauge-Shelf-Layout/dp/B00JUOS4RS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1431124674&sr=8-4&keywords=stair+tread+jig

I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to rig up something that is functionally the same.

To your question # 2 -

Here is another version of the tool Jason is showing - http://www.collinstool.com/base.php?page=collins_tread_gauge_ends.htm

Either of these (I have the Collins) and a track saw with a short rail and your stair parts will fit perfectly between the stringers. I highly recommend!

To your question # 1 - plywood risers is a short term solution as they will get damaged beyond repair at some point. Solid wood for the treads is essential for a good long term solution. I have a set of painted plywood stairs in my shop building that are going on ten years and looking great. BUT - it certainly helped that I recessed an aluminum angle into the leading edge of the treads. Those take all the abuse that would have destroyed the plywood edge.

[Bill McNiel]

Kent,
You are a constant source of triva and Theatre of the Absurd "information'. Much mahalo for brightening another day.

Zack- As an Architect, carpenter, cabinetmaker let me say this - I always try for 7.25" rise with a minimum of 11.25" tread and minimum differental of .25" (absolute max) in riser height for the full run of any stair.

[Mel Fulks]

Kent, interesting story. True historical engineering? Or sloppy work on old Eryll Flynn historical movie?

[Mike Schuch]

When I redid my stairs to get rid of the awful carpet my intention was to pull the carpet off and veneer the treads with slate tile framed in Ipe. After I got the carpet off I was so disgusted by the sloppy workmanship I pulled everything out and redid it. All of the treads and risers were cut by some completely inebriated drunk using his trusty skill saw with his left hand because it had his only two remaining fingers. I have never seen such lousy work. Every tread was supported by a single high point on the lower riser and it was impossible for the stairs to not creak!

After I rebuilt the stairs they turned out great! I think the Ipe frame on each step is actually harder than the slate tile (I am not being facetious). I was worried a lighter softer wood like oak or maple would show signs of wear way too quick.

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[Michael W. Clark]

Sam's recommendation on the short track saw rail worked perfectly for me. I had 13 treads and two were landings that turn. I built a jig similar to those referenced.

I used the riser/tread packs from HD, probably similar to the ones you describe. I left the nosing on the existing treads and furred out using 5/8" sheathing for the risers.

I put a tread at the top and cut the carpet back so only the bottom step was different.

It would have been much easier if the treads did not have the integral cove molding, but it worked out fine and happy with the results.

[Bill Space]

OTOH - -

If you tour ancient castles in Great Britain, it is interesting to note how the built they stone spiral stairs.

First, they turn clockwise as you go up. Most people are right-handed, and as a right-hander, you cannot effectively swing a sword on a clockwise spiral - it is all blind back-hand work. The coming-down-at-you-counterclockwise defenders had a better view, and could use right-hand forehand swings.

Second, 2 or 3 times in the rise, they had one step that was a different height. Rascal invaders would trip on the way up. Defenders had already tripped a hundred times, and knew instinctively where those traps were laid.

Don't suppose the code allows for stairs designed to help repel invaders, do they.

I do not know... But it seems that clockwise going up would be what I would want as a right hander with a sword... Counter clockwise going up would put my right arm against the wall...difficult to swing a sword as a rightie...

Am I seeing this correctly?

[Jim Dwight]

It is completely true that you don't really know what you will get into on remodeling work. I put I a garbage disposal into our house last weekend. Getting a swiched outlet in place was a long hard day. The previous owner had wired a light wrong and I had to fix that too. Required two holes in drywall. I also found an exterior wall with no insulation and a window with no 2X framing around it. Those will have to wait until we do the kitchen. Anyway, once the wiring was done (I also fixed a floor joist hacked almost completely in two and a junction box in the crawl space with no cover that day) the disposal was about 3 hours including two trips to Home Depot. I did the wiring differently than I thought I would once I found what was already in the area.

In your case a lot depends on the existing staircase. Mine was built fine, just with cheap materials. So it was worth salvaging. I hope yours is too.

[Bill McNiel]

I do not know... But it seems that clockwise going up would be what I would want as a right hander with a sword... Counter clockwise going up would put my right arm against the wall...difficult to swing a sword as a rightie...

Am I seeing this correctly?

Bill,
As much as I question supporting any of Kent's postings I believe you are confused. Clockwise puts your arm against the wall (continuious turn to the right).,

[Michelle Rich]

be careful on your new stairs..wood can be very slippery..which is why folks carpet them..

[Rich Engelhardt]

For cutting treads, I bought a tool similar to this (never ended up using it, as the job fell through):

http://www.amazon.com/Stair-Tread-Ga...tair+tread+jig (http://www.amazon.com/Stair-Tread-Gauge-Shelf-Layout/dp/B00JUOS4RS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1431124674&sr=8-4&keywords=stair+tread+jig)

I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to rig up something that is functionally the same.


Third time's the charm on this one.... ;) for price..

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stairtek-5-in-x-12-in-Sturdy-Plastic-Tread-Template-STTRTO/203410479?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cBase&gclid=Cj0KEQjw4LaqBRD60pfSn43ZwLQBEiQAJv5FLAFMsIVm LV_cr-Kplz9TRXo2lxxCfVKgkCn1b1NzZ8AaAv-A8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Order it online and have it shipped to store for free.

[Tom M King]

Bill,
As much as I question supporting any of Kent's postings I believe you are confused. Clockwise puts your arm against the wall (continuious turn to the right).,

Depends on whether it's open or closed newel.

If you ever build a set with housed stringers, you'll never go back to fitting treads and risers.

[Chris Harry]

Third time's the charm on this one.... ;) for price..

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stairtek-5-in-x-12-in-Sturdy-Plastic-Tread-Template-STTRTO/203410479?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cBase&gclid=Cj0KEQjw4LaqBRD60pfSn43ZwLQBEiQAJv5FLAFMsIVm LV_cr-Kplz9TRXo2lxxCfVKgkCn1b1NzZ8AaAv-A8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Order it online and have it shipped to store for free.

I just went thru this same project (convert carpeted basement stairs to hardwood) and used this exact same tool. Except I ordered it from Lowes, ship to store , and had them match Home Depots price (Lowes could get it in 2 days, HD was taking 2 weeks)

I bought Retrotread products from Lowes....the only species they had in-store was red oak, which was fine by me since I was staining them anyway. Our existing stairs were 2x lumber with no nose (risers flush to edge of tread), dadoed into the stringers which prevented me from just ripping them out and putting in regular hardwood treads.

Not meaning to honk my own horn, but I have to say it came out pretty nice (first pic is what I started with) :) :

http://i.imgur.com/5bHX348l.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UMiIzVFl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/lNMsZ69l.jpg

[Rich Engelhardt]

Except I ordered it from Lowes, ship to store , and had them match Home Depots price (Lowes could get it in 2 days, HD was taking 2 weeks)That's what I did too. IIRC, you have to go to the Lowes website and open a chat with them, then have them look at the Home Depot site to verify that it's the same Mfg and model, then they will match the price and ship it to the store.

Be prepared though - when it comes in - - the people at Lowes are going to be dieing to have you open the box so they can see what's inside :D.
The guy that brought the package to the front desk was dropping all kinds of hints to me to open the box and make sure it wasn't damaged or that it was what I'd ordered.
The description on the box is sort of vague.
LOL! I teased the guy for a bit putting off opening the package. Finally I just looked at him and grinned and said. "You just want to see what the thing is don't you"?
He laughed and said "Yeah"!

I had to open it up, then show him how the thing worked.

He was suitably impressed. I enjoy it when someone at one of those places actually takes an interest in what a tool does.

[Chris Harry]

Heh my Lowes store didnt seem to mind as much about what was inside as much as the fact that they had to price match to about 50% of their normal price! 19.99 on homedepot.com, 35.99 on lowes.com

I was actually going to make my own since its not that hard, but for $20 it wasnt worth my time. The tool did work great, although I had to modify it a little (the trim boards I had to add to my stringers werent perfectly plumb, so the long end of the tread tool would contact them and leave a gap at the actual tread area....so I filed down the long end for the last inch or two of the tool)

ive been remodelling my basement on and off for a year now (!!!) and by far the longest part has been the stairs. Between sanding, staining and poly-ing 11 treads, then marking and cutting each one individually to make sure there are no gaps, it just dragged on and on and on. But now its done and it looks damn good!

[Zack Lancaster]

Heh my Lowes store didnt seem to mind as much about what was inside as much as the fact that they had to price match to about 50% of their normal price! 19.99 on homedepot.com, 35.99 on lowes.com

I was actually going to make my own since its not that hard, but for $20 it wasnt worth my time. The tool did work great, although I had to modify it a little (the trim boards I had to add to my stringers werent perfectly plumb, so the long end of the tread tool would contact them and leave a gap at the actual tread area....so I filed down the long end for the last inch or two of the tool)

ive been remodelling my basement on and off for a year now (!!!) and by far the longest part has been the stairs. Between sanding, staining and poly-ing 11 treads, then marking and cutting each one individually to make sure there are no gaps, it just dragged on and on and on. But now its done and it looks damn good!

The wood ones are my previous adventure. The carpet ones are my target. The bottom stair is a must, it gets destroyed all the time no matter how careful we are. The others are up for debate.. you HAVE to go upstairs to access 75% of the house so they worn out badly. For some reason my 3rd picture of the whole set doesn't want to attach, but this gives you an idea.

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[Chris Harry]

Mine were a little challenging because the stairs were mounted with the stringers protruding past the finished wall by about 1" or so, and there was no skirt board (the trim looking board that goes past all of the tread noses). So I had to fill the gap with the white 5/4 material you see in my finished pics. And since the original treads were dadoed into the stringers, I had to notch the ends of each tread to fit the 5/4 board in (or I would have had to scribe and cutout the 5/4 board for each tread.....kinda like cutting a stair stringer upside down)

Lowes website is currently broken (ha!) so i cant link you directly to the treads I used, but they are called Retrotread and were 42" x 12". They have a molding integrated to the tread nose already, so it can cover for any gaps. For the risers I used 3/8" plywood, had Lowes cut it into 8" strips (since I only needed 7.25" for most of the risers, even THEY could manage to get within range). Only thing I regret is not using 1/2" plywood for the risers. Before cutting and installing any of the materials, I measured the rise and run of each step and hammered the boards into place so they were as close to each other as possible (both within the same tread and overall across the whole stairway).

I used the Stairtek tool for the treads AND the risers........I wanted little to no gaps so I wouldnt need to trim around the edges of each tread with shoe molding. The Stairtek tool let me have that even on the risers too.

I sanded each tread with 3 different grades (150, 180, 220). Treads were stained with RustOleum Ultimate Wood Stain in Black Cherry, then poly-ed with water based Varathane Crystal Clear floor finish. Same deal for the wood on the landing, except it was just plain unfinished red oak planks from Home Depot. And same finishing deal for the railing which came as unfinished red oak from Lowes.

And yes, they are slippery, even after using the least glossy poly that Varathane sells. I havent slipped on the treads yet (railing, plus they are a little dusty which gives them some grip :) ) but I did hit the landing wearing just socks and my feet kept going while the rest of me remained still. After much swearing and throwing things, life went on. I found an additive on Amazon that seems to work ok....it doesnt affect the color or clarity of the poly, but leaves behind some "grain" for added grip. Im going to use it on the landing only when I get around to adding another 2 coats of poly (5 total). I also ran the railing a little long so you can still have a hand on it when you get to the landing.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, interesting story. True historical engineering? Or sloppy work on old Eryll Flynn historical movie?


Absolutely true, Mel. I have climbed many of those staircases. They did that on purpose - pretty much the last line of defense - they crossed the moat, stormed the castle, gained the keep, and are coming upstairs after you.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Bill,
As much as I question supporting any of Kent's postings ..........

I'm absolutely on your team on this bit, Bill - I question them all the time myself. :D

But, now - - I am questioning my memory. I know for certain they were intentionally built one direction for this reason........ and so....

medival.stormthecastle dot com:

The hidden secrets of Stairwells – Stairwells were often very carefully designed in Medieval Castles. Stairwells that curved up to towers often curved very narrowly and in a clockwise direction. This meant that any attackers coming up the stairs had their sword hands (right hand) against the interior curve of the wall and this made it very difficult for them to swing their swords. Defenders had their sword hands on the outside wall, which meant they had more room to swing. Another ingenious design of stairs was that they were designed with very uneven steps. Some steps were tall and other steps were short. The inhabitants, being familiar with the uneven pattern of the stair heights could move quickly up and down the stairs but attackers, in a dimly lit stairwell, would easily fall and get bogged down in the stairwells. This made them vulnerable to attacks and slowed their attacks down significantly.

So - I did get this bit correct.

Sorry to take the hijack one step further off track, but - google Borthwick Castle. Years back, stayed there for a few days around New Years- in the room allegedly occupied by Mary Queen of Scots when she was on the run - top floor, no elevator, you quickly find out exactly why it is called "luggage". They explained the unequal steps bit before the first climb up.

We were the only guests - plus the owner and her family, there for the holidays. Dig the photos - great hall, minstrel gallery, the whole bit. Outside wall shows severe damage from Cromwell's army's catapult - Lord Borthwick threw in the towel, so the castle was preserved.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent,
You are a constant source of time-wasting useless carp.....


Fixed if for you, Bill.............