Disappointed with LV apron plane.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wanted to share this because I think it's important to know for potential buyers of this tool, especially those who do not live in the US or Canada. plus I have no one else to rant to.

I have owned the Veritas Apron Plane for 5 years. it's a great tool, I use it quite a bit but hardly daily. the other day I couldn't adjust the blade to a thick cut, the adjuster wouldn't turn. I tried loosening the lever cap and it still wouldn't turn, so I took a closer look, as it turns out, I'm out of usable blade! I thought "that"s weird... how much blade did I use?..." the blade being A2 and used on endgrain will chip at a bevel angle lower than 32 degrees or so, so I did need to sharpen through a few chips, but to run out of blade ? I mean... blades do chip sometimes... so I contacted Lee Valley:

As it turns out, you get just slightly over 3\8 of usable blade, that's it! LV costumer service said "we suggest you try a PMV-11 blade that should hold up better"

What can it do? I mean... yeah ok buy a new blade, but I don't live in the US or Canada! plus the point for me really is - I expected a smarter design from Veritas, 3\8' seems like a joke to me.

by comparison I have a copy of a Stanley 102 at work with notches in the blade that gives around 1 1\4" !
So if I had thought the Apron plane to be good value, turns out it cost's more than the LN 102 in the long run. considering that I cannot just buy a new blade without paying high shipping and then extra fees (because LV won't use regular postal service), I will have to put the plane aside until I have someone to bring the blades for me. even than, I will have to buy 2-3 blades to insure I have a long life span for the plane. I think it's crazy, I might as well buy a new LN 102, at least I won't feel ripped off.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

Can you drill another hole for the adjuster? A carbide drill bit should be able to do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John A langley]

Buy the L N 102 and shelve the apron plane

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Matthew

Can you drill another hole for the adjuster? A carbide drill bit should be able to do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

I wish, but the slot in the blade is also almost hitting a screw that holds down the lever cap.

[Pedro Reyes]

313187

I own one, not sure I will ever go through 3/8" of A2, but I share the burden between other block planes as well.

Are you saying that the slot is your limiting factor? I can measure mine, but it looks to be more than 3/8", I realize there is play at the front too, but it seems like comfortably more than 3/8", so the idea of another hole seems reasonable, albeit a pain and not fair as a customer.

Pedro

[Matthew N. Masail]

LV confirmed a little more than 3\8 as the max, because the adjuster hits the casting. the slot running into the screw makes another hole a moot point, because at most you might gain 1\8"-1\4" of extra blade, not really worth the cost of a carbide bit (not even sure where to get that or how much it would cost) + the time. either way like you said I shouldn't have to drill into a hardened blade. I really do feel cheated by LV because I think their Famous "Innovation in tools" should exclude "bad design". now I can't help but wonder the other tools they make.

[Prashun Patel]

This blade design also does not lend itself to side-clamping honing jigs.

I do have to ask though, how aggressively are you sharpening? I sharpen mine weekly at least and it seems like I still have a ways to go before it becomes useless. I've had mine for 4-ish years now.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I agree 3/8 isn't much, but I also have to say it's enough to last a long time unless you are constantly changing bevel angles or something. Do you grind on a grinder?

[Judson Green]

What John said.

Nice little plane, you won't be disappointed.


Ya know I'm mostly a vintage guy and the old tools i buy were born with tons of iron available to use, so many of the relics I pick up will still serve me a lifetime.

Also, don't mean to sidetrack but, Matthew what happened to the wood you harvested?

[Rob Lee]

Buy the L N 102 and shelve the apron plane

Hi,

Pretty sure the LN has the same useable blade life as ours...perhaps someone would verify that.

The problem with useable blade life in a small plane is balancing the locus of three or more blade contact or clearance requirements ... The slot to accommodate the lever cap screw, the useable cutting area, and the travel of whatever drives the blade....and sometimes a clamp pad.

Each of these "consumes" a percent of the total blade...

Rob

[John A langley]

Rob Lee ifyou read the op post you might see what my remarks meant I have spent some coins with you and also With L N and I'm completely satisfied with both companies

[lowell holmes]

I bet most of us have bought from both companies.

I have the apron plane. I bought it not long after it was introduced.

We all use tools differently, Matthew must sharpen his plane a lot.

I can't imagine going through mine in my lifetime. The iron is not thin or soft. Mine sharpens like I expect it to, and the thickness of the iron helps when sharpening and honing by hand.

I flattened the back soon after I got it (the ruler trick) and since then hone by hand. I also put a micro-bevel on it. I was making translucent shavings with it today.

I think it is possible that Matthew uses his plane differently than I do, so the plane might not be appropriate for his use. He might sell his and purchase a plane that suits his need.

[Greg R Bradley]

Rob,

My low angle LN102 would have use 5/8" of blade before you would run out of adjustment. I love that plane almost as much as I love my NX60 but they have different uses.

It seems to me that the Norris style adjuster sacrifices some total travel of the blade. I'm certainly a plane novice but it seems like a good tradeoff to me in favor of the LV. I would imagine there is virtually no room for that on a plane as small as the LN102.

[glenn bradley]

There are several benefits to the blade design. The amount of travel is a trade off for those benefits. I have a couple of irons for mine at different bevels and wouldn't give it up for the world. I understand how your location makes things difficult. The LN 102 has a solid blade with the control notch very near the rear so I guess it would be good until you ran out of threads on the adjuster.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Rob, I think your comment is very misleading. I can't tell for sure about to LN 102, but at work we have a Luban 102 http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng-Luban-No-102-Bronze-Apron-Plane.html#SID=4
which is a copy on the LN in bronze. the blade has many notches in it so that even if you ran out of travel you can change the notch. I calculated getting about 1 1\4 blade out of the design. I would think the 102 is the same.
I don't mean to imply it is easy to design a plane, I know that is not true! but I feel you made a compromise with this one that makes the tool a bad value.

Regarding my sharpening, the apron was my only block plane for 4 1\2 years, and it was used a lot on end-grain, so it got chipped a few times - I had to grind it. I probably went through it faster than any other blade I have as most others don't need grinding nearly as often ( A2 can be chippy at less than 30+ bevel angle). I still feel 3\8 is a statement that the tool is meant for an amateur\hobbist not someone who spends a lot of time with his hand tools. as said here the old tools I've seen all take blade life into account as an important factor.

[Matthew N. Masail]

What John said.

Nice little plane, you won't be disappointed.


Ya know I'm mostly a vintage guy and the old tools i buy were born with tons of iron available to use, so many of the relics I pick up will still serve me a lifetime.

Also, don't mean to sidetrack but, Matthew what happened to the wood you harvested?

Hi Judson,

It's drying.... A few gorgeous small billets of olive wood. I am making a smoother right now with fairly plain looking white eucalyptus and have chosen an olivewood wedge that just brings everything to life! but it's taking me a ton of time to finish things up because I have been working late for the last 2 mounts.


I still have the big burl piece sitting on my balcony.... when time allows I'll get to cutting it up.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I bet most of us have bought from both companies.

I have the apron plane. I bought it not long after it was introduced.

We all use tools differently, Matthew must sharpen his plane a lot.

I can't imagine going through mine in my lifetime. The iron is not thin or soft. Mine sharpens like I expect it to, and the thickness of the iron helps when sharpening and honing by hand.
.

A2 can be very chippy at low bevel angles, the blade on my Apron plane chipped more than any other I have. if it were O1 we might not be having this talk (yet), but now that I know what a short life the blade has I have to decide if I want to buy 2-3 blade so I can have this plane for 30 years (and why not! I plan to do woodworking much longer than that) or if to buy a different plane. I don't like to have too many tools, I'd rather have 2 block planes which I know very well than 6 that I know less well. I feel like my work is better when I am familiar with the tool.

strangely I have a A2 blade in the Veritas low angle spokeshave and it holds a great edge for a very longs and it it sharpened very low around 20-25... both tools are used on end-grain. I can only guess this is due to the different cutting geometry.

[Prashun Patel]

I dont mean to invalidate your experience but my a2s are all at 25 degrees. I dont experience them to be chippy. Is it possible your blade was bad?

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun,

That can depend on the wood your cutting as well. I keep A2 around 34-35 degrees because I want it to work for all things without changing the bevel.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

I've planed a lot of wood with A2 blades in bevel up planes - both LV and LN - with 25 degree blades, and rarely seen chipping. Indeed, for years my main shooting plane was a LV LA Jack with a 25 degree A2 blade. It never chipped.

Anyway, I do not have the LV Apron plane, and in fact have never used one. My first new plane was a bronze LN #103, about 18 years ago. I am not sure what the blade is - possibly W1, probably A2. I tried to work out how much wear there is in the blade. I suspect about 5/8". I still have 1/2". So I have used 1/8" in all - however I cannot compare my use with yours as I have several other block planes, and the #103 has not had much use in past years (this is changing. It is a fine plane and ideal for chamfers and breaking edges).

I also wanted to add that I understand your frustration and irritation to reflect the time and cost to get a replacement blade. In Oz, as in Israel, it is not a simple matter. The exchange rate creates a higher cost, and shipping is a killer. On the other hand, if you had been aware of the blade reaching the end of its time and ordered its replacement, you probably would just have accepted this. The cost of about $20 over 5 years seems pretty low to me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[paul cottingham]

I shoot with a LV LA Jack as well, with the blade (a2) ground to 20 degrees as well. Never chipped, and with my shooting technique, I would expect it to, if there was a problem.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Derek,

I agree in the big picture 20-30$ over 5 years is not much, it's more about the design for me, I strongly suspect the LN has more like an inch+ of blade in it, but I might be wrong. it really does matter to a regular user of a plane. in any case I think I have had my run with how I feel about it, no need to beat it to death.
Most likely won't be getting another blade for many months, maybe a year, because paying to have it shipped doesn't make sense. so you are probably right that is the biggest part of my Frustration.

Thanks and all the best

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi,

Pretty sure the LN has the same useable blade life as ours...perhaps someone would verify that.

The problem with useable blade life in a small plane is balancing the locus of three or more blade contact or clearance requirements ... The slot to accommodate the lever cap screw, the useable cutting area, and the travel of whatever drives the blade....and sometimes a clamp pad.

Each of these "consumes" a percent of the total blade...

Rob

Hi Rob. Governed within the confines of the lever cap slot; by increasing the proportion of thread on the depth adjuster rod ; wouldn't that allow more usable blade to be indexed forward.

Stewie;

[Judson Green]

OK here's some pictures and some numbers.

I've a old LN 102 (had it for about 20 years) didn't really use it a ton (bought it when I started out in woodworking, but ended up going the machine rout til about 3 years ago) but have no idea how much I might have sharpened away. I measured a little more that ½" of useful iron life in her yet. There is only one notch for the depth adjuster to go into, perhaps newer models are different.

313266 313267

Here's a old Stanley 103 nearing the end of its iron's useful life. I measured about 1¾" of worth notch's on the iron and ~⅛" of adjuster movement.

313268

[Matthew N. Masail]

The Luban bronze 102 is more like the Stanley, it seems like the LN is not like that. here from the LN site https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/no.-102-or-103-block-plane-blade-toothed looks like there indeed is only 1 slot.

[Frank Martin]

I also have the Veritas Apron plane along with the LN 102. Of course, with the minimal use (not much time for woodworking) I don't ever see myself going through the blade in my life time, but I understand the OPs frustration. However, it is mostly due to his special circumstance with shipping being so expensive. Otherwise, I do think this is a great plane that I would wholeheartedly recommend to anyone.

[john zulu]

I came late to this thread.
@Matthew why are you using for end grain with the plane? With end grain the secondary bevel should be 30. Plus the apron is not heavy enough for end grain. Surprisingly the std block block is a better choice for end grain. End grain can crumble most edges very quickly.

I personally own the LN 102. It is similar to the apron plane but I don't use it for end grain work. More for trimming, tuning and breaking edges. If I really wanted to use it for end grain I would use a slicing motion.

[lowell holmes]

. Surprisingly the std block block is a better choice for end grain. End grain can crumble most edges very quickly.

I personally own the LN 102. It is similar to the apron plane but I don't use it for end grain work. More for trimming, tuning and breaking edges. If I really wanted to use it for end grain I would use a slicing motion.


John, now that you mention it, I have a #3 bailey that I use for end grain. I will use the apron plane on a small end grain, but if it doesn't suit me, I will go to the #3.
It makes me kind if want to buy a #2. I think it might be the choice for end grain.

[Derek Cohen]

You can cut end grain with any angle, but lower angles will plane more easily and leave a smoother finish. The reason I have a (20-degree bed) LN #103 and not the lower 12-degree #102 is that I was not wearing my reading glasses when I purchased it the store about 18 or 20 years ago! :). And it did not occur to me to check what it was until I purchased a (12-degree bed) LN 60 1/2 5 years later. Both planes work well, without chipping, with 25 degree bevels. My LV block planes, one with A2 and the other with PM-V11, work perfectly with 25 degree bevels.

Before the years of using a LV LA Jack as a shooter, with a 25 degree bevel on a 12 degree bed, I used a HNT Gordon Trying Plane, which had a 30 degree bevel on a 60 degree bed. It, too, worked but needed more frequent honing as the blade dulled quickly.

I would argue that, if your blades are chipping on end grain, you either have poor steel in your example, or you are heavy-handed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian maybury]

Late coming in Matthew. As another based in a small economy where serious woodworking stuff isn't locally available i too get frustrated when i'm caught for hefty shipping charges - that often more than double the cost of a small item needed in a hurry.

Against that it seems to me that the apron plane while a serious and high performing tool was just not designed for heavy duty material removal - it's as similar tools by other makers pitched (e.g. in how-to videos) as a trim/finishing tool. There's much heavier block planes in the LV and LN lines, probably for this and other reasons. It's packaged to be light and easy to handle - for good control.

I bought it expressly for this reason for small jobs where visibility and alignment of the plane are important - and was dead pleased to find that it cut just like its bigger brothers. Which perhaps is why it's easy to get sucked into using for heavier work.

The big difference between the LV apron plane and the similar size LN 102/103 is that (hope i have it right as i don't have one of the latter) the LV has a Norris type adjuster giving side to side as well as the usual forward/back (only) blade adjustment. This costs some space, and with (presumably) the need to match the length of the 102/103 types may be the underlying reason it has a little less blade travel. It's a good trade to my mind, but not necessarily a deal maker/breaker either.

The tapered blade also makes a significant contribution to reducing the bulk and volume - it's got a nice slim rear. :) Which marginally improves its ability to get into tight spaces. The taper is an add-on/extra cost, and not the result of cost cutting or anything like that - it's purposely there.

Sharpening is down to what equipment you use. There's a parallel section to the front of the blade which works very nicely to establish blade alignment when using the Veritas Mk 2 honing guide and angle setting accessory.

Pardon any seeming lack of consideration (and i understand the feeling), but it's perhaps ultimately a pays your money takes your pick sort of deal ...

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'd like to try and clarify:

1. I use the plane for small piece on end-grain, like hand plane parts and other small things. I'm not talking furniture size stuff here. and yes IT IS A GOOD PLANE FOR THAT, I like it better than a 60 1\2.

2. I sharpen only free hand - sometimes over a hollow but mostly just free hand. I think what Derek said about me being heavy handed with it might be a good point. all my bevel down planes hold up well, but my two bevel-up block planes don't seem to hold an edge as well. maybe it's something about BU planes? in any case I will work of my approach with working with them. Thank you Derek that is a very good point.

3. I'd rather not get into to pluses and minuses of the Apron plane design. for example I personally I don't the Norris adjuster - it has no sensitivity to laterals adjustments, and the blade shape makes it very hard to reach with a hammer. I much prefer lateral adjustment with a hammer and a regular screw for depth. but that has nothing to do with the point. I also tend to loosen the wheel without noticing, the Stanley wheels like on the 60 1\2 and the 102 are more out of the way. but this post for me is only about blade life, other people I'm sure like all those features.

4. no matter how many of you feel you might never wear out the blade, it doesn't mean much because you must be a light user of the tool. let me explain - 3\8 = 12\32. if a blade chips you can easily los a 1\32. I use the tool with pride, it hits knots, tough end grain and what not, and even if I were very careful, things happen, I once hit a hidden nail in some otherwise clear looking reclaimed timber. so if I had to grind it 12 times over the years, which may sound like a lot but it's not if you use to tool 15 times a week, I would be out of blade (and that doesn't include regular sharpening). so the tool just doesn't have a life span suitable for someone who does not have a LV store in their back yard and that actually uses it. that's how I feel, take it or leave it. I truly think a high end tool should be able to be a workhorse.

[John Sanford]

Matthew,

Perhaps there is an opportunity here.... become a LV distributor for the Middle East? Perhaps LN AND Lee Valley? :eek:

I understand your frustration with the cost of small parts vis a vis shipping them. It is an unfortunate perceptual trap. The cost of shipping large things and/or mass quantities has gone down exponentially in the last 50 years, but not nearly as much for smaller things. Throw in the vagaries of import duties, and the thought of hunting down a local bladesmith to knock out a blade for one may be worthwhile. Of course, one must have local bladesmiths for that to work.

[george wilson]

How can I have a package of 6 of those little folding credit card knives (be careful to not forget there might be one in your wallet when you go to the airport!) sent from CHINA for $1.00? And the shipping is free to me. The knives are $1.00 each. I like giving them to my friends. A very clever little invention. And,the real thing,not knockoffs. On the inventor's website,he wants a LOT more.

On TV(always such a bargain),they are something like $8.17 EACH PLUS shipping. And,just to be good to you,for just separate shipping and handling,they'll send you a second one FREE!!!!

Anyway,that shipping is clear from China and all the way across the USA for a dollar!!

I never had an apron plane,or even an apron!!

[Reinis Kanders]

Chinese must have subsidized shipping because similar stuff from England on eBay is literally an order of magnitude more expensive.
Nevertheless to have only 3/8" of a blade available is somewhat ridiculous and also wasteful design unless the blade could be re-purposed for something. I have kind of migrated away from the block planes and just use my 4 for most of the endgrain stuff.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hold up friends!!! Matthew has been a good and regular participant on this forum. While I don't personally agree with some of what he has said, the gentleman is entitled to his opinion, based on his experience. IMO, there's no reason to get sarcastic or hostile just because he's pressing his point longer/harder than some of us might prefer.

Respectfully,
Fred

[george wilson]

Shipping from England HAS gotten very high because of some regulation I can't recall. Even small items like a little teeny tool costs a lot to get sent. I wish it did not have to be that way among chief allies. We also make it very difficult to let each others immigrants in. In the museum,we had to prove that the British craftsmen they wanted had unique skills not available in the USA,and vice versa. Took YEARS to get the harness maker and the book binder to be able to stay here.

But,that gets entirely off the subject. The shipping costs do bother me,though.

[Jim Koepke]

Buy a new blade, or buy a different plane.


The lament seems to be over this becoming a recurring cost to the OP. The cost to him for a replacement blade is more than was spent on most of my planes. Maybe my willingness to bring old iron back to life may be considered "penny wise and pound foolish" to others. If my position was the same as Matthew's, my hobby might be something completely different. My being "penny wise and pound foolish" has allowed me to accumulate quite the arsenal to attack woodworking projects.

Many people seem to like the LV apron plane. My satisfaction would quickly turn to disappointment in the same situation. Heck, even if the shipping was free my happiness factor would drop.

Unfortunately for the OP, he lives in an area where finding usable new or second hand tools is difficult. He is somewhat exasperated by spending good money on a plane that let him down by what he considers premature blade end of use.

The blade actually is listed at more than $20. I have no idea if there is import tax on such items. International shipping can be a pain in the back side. Spending half the original cost on a consumable component to keep something working is not something that appeals to most folks.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

I would have been quite upset too about only 9mm of blade life. The plane itself is 99 euro, the blades 26.50 euro overhere. Not really small change. I can see why LV wouldn't want to change the design, but a fair warning on the website and the catalogue may be in order.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Just a suggestion: I believe the OP is located in Israel? Good grades of tool steel should be readily available and for less than the cost of one blade and shipping the OP can buy enough tool steel to make 25 or 30 years of blades, plus the "fixings" to construct a small heat treat furnace (use your wife's toaster oven to draw with). Yes, a bit of work & thought to get through the first one, but every other (for other planes, etc. as well) becomes easy. The upside is you can choose O1, W1, A2 or anything you want to try.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi George,
Darn shame about the bookbinder and harnessmaker, too. Glad they finally did get residency.

(BTW, your inbox is full and isn't accepting PM's just now.)

Take care,
Fred

[Matthew N. Masail]

1. I was and am not pushing my point, I think anyone who reads this thread will already get the warning about the blade life. and as I said on the original post - I also wanted to vent.


2. A friend of mine owns the only fine woodworking tool store in Israel. we contacted LV and Veritas, they said they were not interested in having a dealer in Israel because we should buy from Euroup.


3. Cost - you say 20$. I see 27$ + shipping another 30$ or more + fedex (or the like) will charge another 25-50$ to release the item. it happened to me once before. this is because LV do not use regular post. so....


AND yes - shipping from China is wonderful (-:


Tony - that is not a bad idea at all..... I could also leave the blade square to adjust laterally with a hammer. but I know there is so much going on the Apron plane will have to wait it's turn.


Thank you and all the best, I hope I have not offended anyone, and if I did please feel free to tell me. I'd like to stay friendly, I have no time or intention to drag anything out.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The cheapest solution is to buy two blades at the next Free Shipping event, find a mate in Canada or the USA and get them to post you the parcel using the lowest cost possible. Mark it as a gift and it won't cost more than a beer for your mate and a couple of stamps.

[John A langley]

I gladly help him with that

[Prashun Patel]

Hi All. I've edited down some of the threads to keep things friendly and civil and relevant. If you feel you've been redacted unfairly, please PM me.

FWIW, I've found this thread very thought provoking on a couple levels. Thanks!!!!

[john zulu]

Shipping to Malaysia and taxes is also an issue. To a point of being absurd....

[Judson Green]

I gladly help him with that

Me tooooooo

[ian maybury]

To Reinis/George. We're only a very small distance from the UK, and there has historically been a lot of intercountry trade.

Despite that it's only in the last year or two with the advent of a couple of new carriers that shipping rates have started to come down from the stratosphere.

I avoid buying high end woodworking stuff in the UK if at all possible, because even with the above most sellers charge huge prices too. Then there's the currency issue. Axminster Tools are not so bad, but still tend to be quite expensive.

Most of my stuff comes from Germany - from Dieter Schmid, Dick Gmbh and the like. Their prices are typically less in Euro to UK in pounds. UPS is cheaper to me from Germany than the UK.

I'm not 100% sure why, but my impression is that it may be to do with local sellers taking advantage of a very deep seated reluctance of the average UK punter to buy overseas. Maybe somebody who knows better will come in...

[Reinis Kanders]

For me it mostly stops me from using eBay for some cool stuff from UK. Lot of nice old tools from there, but shipping is crazy so I do not even look.

[Jim Koepke]

For me it mostly stops me from using eBay for some cool stuff from UK. Lot of nice old tools from there, but shipping is crazy so I do not even look.

Same here, many an item has been passed over due to shipping being more than the cost of an item. When selling my boiler plate includes notice of international bidding needs to ask first. In the past my ebay auctions have always included shipping in the starting price.

Having both bought and sold on ebay it seems ridiculous how much it costs to ship to some countries and how simple it is to ship to others. Then there is the added problem of paperwork needing to go along with exports.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks to those who offered to help! I have family in the US, but I think I might try to make blades... maybe re-configure the plane.. my mind is running.

[george wilson]

Too bad it costs so much to ship a small item to Israel. I am in sympathy with Matthew about the cost to get a new blade,and the 3/8" of usable length it offers. However,I must say that I don't think I've used that much blade length since the 60's on my planes. And many years ago,when I only built instruments,my ONLY plane was a standard,contemporary Stanley block plane. I did everything with it. Still have it,too,but now have added a number of other block planes. LN,LV NX60,others I have made,etc.. Not that I needed more tools!

[Tony Zaffuto]

Thanks to those who offered to help! I have family in the US, but I think I might try to make blades... maybe re-configure the plane.. my mind is running.

Place to begin is to find a local tool steel distributor, and then ask for the heat treat brochures for their brand. Each brand may have their own names for their steels, but most also provide cross referencing to the generic terms. If you (or for that matter anyone) need help, post it on SMC and there are more than a few of us that can assist.

[george wilson]

The best thing to do about getting into making your own tools is this:

Select a single type of tool steel. I recommend 01,or OIL hardening steel. It is easy to work with. You can get good results by heating it to an orange color and quenching it in any one of several oils. Vegetable oil,linseed oil(yes,even linseed),CLEAN motor oil(a light weight grade like 10 weight is best), or automatic transmission fluid. I have used automatic transmission fluid for many years.

After you quench the steel,sand the blackening off so you can see the naked steel. Wipe the oil off so it doesn't burn black while you are re heating the steel to temper it. You need to heat the steel slowly and carefully so as not to go over the color you want too easily. It is easy to overheat the steel and ruin its temper. Heat the steel till it turns a medium or dark brown color,and quench it again. If you are heating the steel and it starts to turn purple,quench it as quickly as possible. Sand it off and begin carefully heating the steel to the brown color again. Purple is past brown,and blue is next,which will give you a softer cutting edge at a spring temper in the low 50 rockwell hardness. It is still usable,but will not have the edge retention of a steel heated to brown.

If you heat the steel till it goes past blue and turns gray,you will have fully softened the steel and will have to re harden it,then re temper it. You can do this a FEW times,but the steel will start acting crazy after you do it 4 or 5 times. You would need a hardness tester to see what I mean,but I demonstrated this to students in my shop.

I will not elaborate further as viewers tend to not read long posts.

[Alfred Kraemer]

For all of the small planes compared in this thread there is a tradeoff between usable blade length, 'real estate' under the lever cap, and comfort of grip. No one is arguing for a blade that is so long it sticks out 1/2 inch beyond the lever cap.
I have noticed the limitations most with the LN model maker's plane. It looks like a version of an older squirrel tail plane, but it isn't. It is a low angle plane, and because of that the blade can't be any longer than it is. it is also another example of a small plane that is a terrific performer at the disadvantage of not being able to accommodate a longer blade. This is one of my favorite little planes. When the blade needs to be replaced I'll pay the premium price. By then I ll have gotten a lot of use out of it.

Alfred

[Karl Fife]

I've got BOTH a Veritas Apron Plane and a Bronze Lie Nielsen 102 sitting in front of me.
Here's what I notice:

1.
The OP is right. With a never-used Apron plane, there is 10mm of motion in the Norris adjuster before it bottoms out against the groove in the casting and no more sharpening is possible. Even with a second 'hole' in the blade, the 'slot' would crash into the frog screw. It appears that the blade slot could have been lengthened by about 5mm before it would encroach on the 'seat' of the Norris mechanism. By contrast, the Lie-Nielsen 102 has 15mm on the thumbscrew before it 'bottoms out'. 50% more usable blade. In theory, one could get about 20mm out of the blade by removing the blade from the plane, backing the screw out, and putting it back with the thumbscrew pressing against the END of the blade (to advance it). In this configuration, the thumbscrew couldn't retract the blade, but it would keep the plane working until a replacement blade arrived.

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2.
The Norris adjuster is a nice feature, but this plane is difficult to adjust the blade with hammer taps because the blade is tightly tucked in to the body of the plane. This means you ONLY get the Norris adjuster. An unnecessary exclusion. I found that I get much more precise adjustments by tapping the blade of the 102 versus using the Norris adjuster on the Apron plane.

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3.
The blade itself is tapered, making it incompatible with side-clamp honing guides, possibly throwing off someone's sharpening foo.

4.
The mouth of the Apron plane is wide open. The 102 has a much finer mouth than the Apron plane which is very large by comparison. Note that both planes as pictured are adjusted to take a .0015 " shaving, yet the mouth openings differ greatly.

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5.
The body of the Apron plane is considerably wider for the same size cutter, especially near the front. You can see that there is a lot of extra material on either side of the blade. Initially this seemed unnecessary, but I'm thinking it was done to allow the plane to be used for shooting. The front must be as wide as the widest part of the plane to create a flat reference for shooting.
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6.
The LN-102 has curved sides. This means you can't lay the 102 on its side to shoot with it. You could call that a negative compared to the Apron plane's but consider that it's a design trade-off. Making the plane suitable for shooting excludes the more compact, sleek design and hand-feel. In this sense, someone could could 'prefer' the 'feature' of not being able to shoot with a small block plane.

7.
The LN-102 is a bit heavier despite being smaller. I measured 15.8 oz for the Apron plane, and 16.8 oz for the LN-102.

[john zulu]

I've got BOTH a Veritas Apron Plane and a Bronze Lie Nielsen 102 sitting in front of me.
Here's what I notice:

1.
The OP is right. With a never-used Apron plane, there is 10mm of motion in the Norris adjuster before it bottoms out against the groove in the casting and no more sharpening is possible. Even with a second 'hole' in the blade, the 'slot' would crash into the frog screw. It appears that the blade slot could have been lengthened by about 5mm before it would encroach on the 'seat' of the Norris mechanism. By contrast, the Lie-Nielsen 102 has 15mm on the thumbscrew before it 'bottoms out'. 50% more usable blade. In theory, one could get about 20mm out of the blade by removing the blade from the plane, backing the screw out, and putting it back with the thumbscrew pressing against the END of the blade (to advance it). In this configuration, the thumbscrew couldn't retract the blade, but it would keep the plane working until a replacement blade arrived.

335949335948
2.
The Norris adjuster is a nice feature, but this plane is difficult to adjust the blade with hammer taps because the blade is tightly tucked in to the body of the plane. This means you ONLY get the Norris adjuster. An unnecessary exclusion. I found that I get much more precise adjustments by tapping the blade of the 102 versus using the Norris adjuster on the Apron plane.

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3.
The blade itself is tapered, making it incompatible with side-clamp honing guides, possibly throwing off someone's sharpening foo.

4.
The mouth of the Apron plane is wide open. The 102 has a much finer mouth than the Apron plane which is very large by comparison. Note that both planes as pictured are adjusted to take a .0015 " shaving, yet the mouth openings differ greatly.

335951

5.
The body of the Apron plane is considerably wider for the same size cutter, especially near the front. You can see that there is a lot of extra material on either side of the blade. Initially this seemed unnecessary, but I'm thinking it was done to allow the plane to be used for shooting. The front must be as wide as the widest part of the plane to create a flat reference for shooting.
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6.
The LN-102 has curved sides. This means you can't lay the 102 on its side to shoot with it. You could call that a negative compared to the Apron plane's but consider that it's a design trade-off. Making the plane suitable for shooting excludes the more compact, sleek design and hand-feel. In this sense, someone could could 'prefer' the 'feature' of not being able to shoot with a small block plane.

7.
The LN-102 is a bit heavier despite being smaller. I measured 15.8 oz for the Apron plane, and 16.8 oz for the LN-102.

Very good observations there. On item 4. It is actually better to have a smaller mouth on these planes. It is for trimming. If a bigger mouth is needed a block plane should be used.

[Derek Cohen]

The mouth of the Apron plane is wide open. The 102 has a much finer mouth than the Apron plane which is very large by comparison. Note that both planes as pictured are adjusted to take a .0015 " shaving, yet the mouth openings differ greatly.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=335951&d=1460960051&thumb=1 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=335951&d=1460960051)

The mouth of my LN #103 was also very wide. This made it harder to set it up for fine shavings. A while ago I shimmed the bed with 4 layers of 0.002" brass sheet (one piece folded 4 times and epoxied on). This closed the mouth up (and dropped the cutting angle from 20- to 19 degrees) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN%20103/LN103-2a_zpsykbbtf0z.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN%20103/LN103-1a_zpsuxrwlahs.jpg

No knowledge of the LN#102 or Veritas Apron plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

I have to ask.:)

Why did this string become active after a year since a previous post.

I have the apron plane. Other than occaisionally clogging on a fine shaving, I have no issues with it. I'm sure the bronze plane is delightful to hold and use, but I have had an apron plane in my apron for years. I'm totally happy with it. It is an honest tool that does what it is supposed to do.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm late to this thread but if the OP wore out 3/8" of A2 steel - and was using regular conservative sharping methods - he did a LOT of planning with that iron. I'd figure I got my money's worth out of it and buy a new iron.

If the OP sharpened in some manner that took a lot of material off with each sharpening, well, that's a choice he made.

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

I have to ask.:)

Why did this string become active after a year since a previous post.



Good question. But the worst are those bumps, second bumps and third (?) bumps.

Simon

[Karl Fife]

The mouth of my LN #103 was also very wide. This made it harder to set it up for fine shavings. A while ago I shimmed the bed with 4 layers of 0.002" brass sheet (one piece folded 4 times and epoxied on). This closed the mouth up (and dropped the cutting angle from 20- to 19 degrees) ...
Derek

Of course you did. Just... awesome. A few things.
1.
"Lie-Nielsen #102.9 Medium-Angle Block Plane".
Since you have lowered the effective pitch of the blade bed, I believe you can't call it a 103 anymore. However, it's not quite low enough to be a 102. I think what you've got there is the world's first LN-102.9 :-) In all seriousness though, shim stock... Ain't it just the best stuff in the world? If my rocket ship were leaving for Mars, I'd be sure to grab duct tape and shim stock among a few other choice tools. It raises this question however: why not shim up both parts of the bed so your blade is co-planar to the machined bed. If you only shimmed the front, isn't the blade sitting cattywampus, supported only at the extreme leading edge?

2.
I'm actually surprised that there is *any* variation between yours and mine. If I were a gamblin' man I'd say a design *change* vs. a 102 vs. 103 thing. I suspect that once upon a time, somebody in Warren, ME said, "Yup. I think we need to smaller up this here mouth". No insider knowledge, just a W.A.G..

3.
As is par for the course in a forum of engineer-minded woodworkers, the blade discussion is largely academic. Anyone who uses up an entire blade without chipping, planing over nails, grinding it away etc., gets a free-beer coupon from yours truly (Just pay separate processing and handling).

[Karl Fife]

>> Why did this string become active after a year since a previous post.

Ah yes, the 'necro-post'.

I had been benefiting from the wisdom that everyone had shared as I researched these two planes. I gained a lot of insight from this particular thread, so when I saw the two tools side-by-side, I thought I'd share my observations. I really like them both, and either tool makes a surprisingly nice supplement to a full-size block plane.

[lowell holmes]

I'm not complaining, just curious.:)

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting how informational a thread approaching its one year anniversary can be.

One thought comes to mind of this being just the opposite of doing the same thing over and over again trying to get different results. Here we all do things in a different way while expecting to get similar results.

The problem of short useable blade is most noticeable for me on spokeshave blades. Most of the replacement blades cost more than my spoke shaves originally cost. Some do not have an exact replica or look alike replacement.

In my concern of having a blade reaching its end of usefulness many replacement blades have been purchased. Haven't really needed any of yet. Every once in awhile one of the old blades will be be put in service when a blade in use gets dull. Funny how a blade seems to get dull just sitting in a box for a few years. In reality I think my sharpening has significantly improved since the blades in the box were sharpened.

One of my A2 blades does seem a bit on the chip prone side of things. Most likely the reason is it is usually ground at 25º and is used mostly for shooting. The biggest chip came last week when some wood was being worked that had a speck of stone embedded in one piece and a piece of staple in another. These were removed by hand honing and I do not think they were anywhere near 1/32" (0.03125") of metal removal needed to correct the situation.

Sadly, the cost of shipping for most of us can kill a good deal. This is likely part of the strategy of LV offering free shipping to North American shoppers. It likely becomes a feeding frenzy of pent up desire unleashed by a significant discount. It is a sad impediment that some nations use tariffs and shipping surcharges to help fund their treasury.

My thought for Matthew is to somehow lengthen the cap screw slot, if possible plug the hole for the adjuster and create a new adjustment hole. I am not sure if this is possible, but I would try. Other than that making a few blades locally might be the best solution to the original problem.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Very good observations there. On item 4. It is actually better to have a smaller mouth on these planes. It is for trimming. If a bigger mouth is needed a block plane should be used.

Err, these ARE block planes.

[john zulu]

Err, these ARE block planes.

need to correct myself. No. 60-1/2 should be a better choice with a bigger plane mouth.

[lowell holmes]

I have the Lie Nielsen 140 skew and the Lie Nielsen 60 1/2. They are both really good planes and I use them. However, my all time favorite block plane was a 1970's vintage 12-960. After 30 years it gave up the ghost. The plane was small in size and created paper thin shavings. Apron planes had not been introduced yet, or else I didn't know about them if they had. The LV apron plane comes closest to what I liked about the 12-960. I may buy a new 12-960 to see if it will fill the bill.
The 140 and the 60 1/2 are great planes and I am keeping them. The 140 is a brass plane.

[Chris Hachet]

Prashun,

That can depend on the wood your cutting as well. I keep A2 around 34-35 degrees because I want it to work for all things without changing the bevel.


I keep my PMV 11 blade in this plane at about that bevel, I do not have to sharpen it that often. Have used my Apron plane for 2 1/2 years, no issues at all.

[Karl Fife]

I couldn't help but notice this tool in the background of David Charlesworth's shop in the DVD "The Secret Mitre Dovetail".

It looks like it might be a nice Iron implementation of the 102. This is slightly more interesting since Lie-Nielsen does not make a ductile Iron 102 anymore. It's only available in manganese-bronze these days. Personally, I prefer bronze for this specific case, but everyone has their preference. The tool below is made by (for?) Dictum. They call it the "DICK Pocket Plane 12°". I've never seen or played with one in person.
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p.s.
I have deliberately left out the umpteen zillion jokes about Dictum's brand name. The possibilities are endless in a wood working forum.