does a wall oven cabinet have a back? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Jim Dwight

05-08-2015, 8:09 AM

You need to look at the installation instructions for the oven you are working with. I assume you are talking a 24 inch deep cabinet with a face frame. The inside depth would thus be about 23 1/4 but it looks to me like the depth specified in the couple of installation instructions I saw was from the front of the cabinet, the front of the face frame. GE required 23 1/2 depth and Whirlpool 23 inch. Measured from the front of the face frame you would have space for a 1/2 thick back on a GE or a 3/4 back on a Whirlpool oven. So I think you can put a back if you want but I probably wouldn't. The back is going to be combustable and the oven outside will get hot. No need to put combustable material close to the oven in this area. You can keep the cabinet square with a back above and below the oven opening.

So I wouldn't put one but I think you probably could.

Rich Engelhardt

05-08-2015, 8:17 AM

I believe you put a back in, then cut out the opening in the back - similar to the way the back of a television cabinet is.
That way you have some strength on the back to prevent racking.

That's just what I've seen in my limited exposure tearing them out of older houses..

Tom Ewell

05-08-2015, 8:53 AM

On non custom 'commercial cabinets' I've installed.

Open to the wall behind the oven, a double oven might have an occasional stretcher (rail) across the back to hold things together and in line. Any closed in storage above and below the oven will help keep things square.

Face frames are strategically oversized a bit at the opening to allow for cut-to-fit and parts for interior support platforms can be loose for site installation once the actual model of oven is discovered.

If you're making your own cabinets it would be nice to have the specs for the oven on hand to design around.

Justin Jump

05-08-2015, 10:13 AM

The good thing is the wife narrowed down her choice, both cut sheets for the oven have the width at the cabinet at 28 1/2".

The bad thing is they both have different heights, so I need her to make the choice this weekend so I can finish the drawings for the cabinets.

On non custom 'commercial cabinets' I've installed.

Open to the wall behind the oven, a double oven might have an occasional stretcher (rail) across the back to hold things together and in line. Any closed in storage above and below the oven will help keep things square.

Face frames are strategically oversized a bit at the opening to allow for cut-to-fit and parts for interior support platforms can be loose for site installation once the actual model of oven is discovered.

If you're making your own cabinets it would be nice to have the specs for the oven on hand to design around.

Rich Riddle

05-08-2015, 10:27 AM

The ones I have installed had stretchers. You could build one with a back but you'd need access to electrical and venting areas.

Peter Quinn

05-08-2015, 12:31 PM

I'm in a custom shop, they always get backs. The ovens don't usually vent to the rear, they are very well insulated, and the cabinet is usually installed before the oven goes in, so having no back gives no more access than with, it all happens from the front on most of them, or all the ones I've seen. Always pick the appliances first and build to their specs. Some things are pretty standard, like dishwashers and consumer grade ranges, but get much fancier than that and it's not all standardized. Many of the oven boxes I've done were at the end of a run, or at a transition, and few have been 24" cabinets, usually more like 28", so looking in plan the stove box jogs forward, breaks up that straight run of boxes like a break front on a formal china cabinet. Adds interest, gives clearance, sort of defines the space for the cook and others in the kitchen too. It says "the oven lives here" visually and mentally in a subtle way. Factory cabs have their own rules driven by the necessity to speed production, minimize cost is the driving factor. On a custom kitchen it's a no brained to sacrifice one extra sheet of plywood to make things sturdy, functional and pretty.

Justin Ludwig

05-08-2015, 3:54 PM

Robert Parent

05-08-2015, 4:52 PM

My Jenn Air fits into a 24 inch cabinet with a back..... The outside of mine does not get hot, other brands may vary. I would recommend you get the owners manual as they spell out what the requirements are. Location of the electrical and venting are also worth checking before building a cabinet.

BTW: I love my built in oven and would never want to go back to a standard oven.

Robert

Peter Quinn

05-08-2015, 5:09 PM

I build them 26" deep so the countertop on the base next to it can butt and not hang over. I also include a 1/4" back and use a oscillating saw or jig saw to cut the outlet hole. Like Peter says, "Hi, I'm the oven."

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Thats a beautiful example right there, its great the way everything has a pace to land, adds visual interest instead of looking like an endless straight run of boxes, and the fridge is never going to play nice anyway, what should the ovens? Thats just how all the ones I've done look, some an inch deeper, some were probably at 26", I've seen that done with stock cases, they just keep them off the wall and add a filler at the back....which is not as elegant as making them actually fit but has the same visual up font where it counts, and the lowers and uppers cover most of the gap anyway....though that does nothing to the inside of the box.

Bob Grier

05-08-2015, 6:06 PM

I believe Justin has it a good point. That is the way my cabinet maker does it. Also, if you don't get the electrical just the way the oven manufacturer envisioned, you can still make it work.

Regarding the 24" cutout: My experience has been that the width of the cutout for a 24" oven can be accomplished with a 24" cabinet and the width of a 30" oven can be accomplished with a 30" cabinet. However, if you are doing custom cabinets, you might want to add a little to the width.

If possible, I would not install a 24" oven cabinet. I would go with 30" cabinet so it can hold a 24" or 30" oven in the future without getting into a major cabinet redo. 30" ovens are much nicer than 24" ovens and not mudh more expensive. 24" ovens may even be limited in selection. Now days with the insulation requirements, the walls are thicker than in the old days and this makes the interior width dimension of a 24" oven narrower than in the old days (1980s).

Martin Wasner

05-08-2015, 8:15 PM

I usually don't put a back in a wall oven cabinet unless I feel like it's necessary for structural reasons. Which it usually isn't.

Justin Ludwig

05-09-2015, 8:46 AM

I usually don't put a back in a wall oven cabinet unless I feel like it's necessary for structural reasons. Which it usually isn't.

Structural considerations: it really helps in squaring up the cabinet. I install the back before the face frame. Face frames that large almost always rack a little, and installing the back before helps to reduce the amount of clamps I have to use while glue dries. Also, all my uppers get a back, so the back in the full cabinets automatically covers the area over the oven/microwave. My fridge cabinets only get a back on the upper portion - I'll use a rabbet that is stopped at the bottom of the nailer. The area behind the fridge just has 3" wide nailers to provide stability and mounting capability.

Martin Wasner

05-09-2015, 8:30 PM

I usually do my backs after the frames, just because if I do have to put a clamp somewhere, my options are pretty open that way. Everyone does things differently.

I leave backs out of wall oven cabinets frequently almost strictly because of cost. Upper and tall cabinets I'm usually running a ½" Baltic Birch back that I'm paying too much for. Plus it ditches a step on install not having to either cut around a box, or even drill a hole. If there is a back, it's nice for the sparky though. Usually I see just a wire hanging out of the wall, and the box needs to be mounted in the upper right corner. If there's a back there, they can just screw the box to the back exactly where it needs to sit.

If there is an opening above and/or below the oven, those openings get backs.

Justin Ludwig

05-10-2015, 8:04 AM

Upper and tall cabinets I'm usually running a ½" Baltic Birch back that I'm paying too much for.

I could see that getting expensive. What's the justification for using 1/2" back on those? I'm curious?

I use 1/4 China Birch which is $16 for a 4x8 sheet, unless it's stained and exposed, then I'll choose whatever species in a ply or mdf veneer, but still 1/4". I get supplied with Russian Birch for 5piece drawer boxes, those run me $26 for a 5x5 which is twice the cost per sq ft as the 1/4" China birch.

Larry Edgerton

05-10-2015, 9:15 AM

I don't do backs, but I do use a 1" stiffener on each side which has never been in the way yet.

I won't even start a kitchen until the appliances are chosen, too many changes after the fact that customers expect you so do for nothing. Make up your mind!

I use 1/2" backs as well, usually prefinished maple. I just charge more. But.... cabinets are no longer my focus and if they want me to build them they are not looking for cheap.

peter gagliardi

05-10-2015, 1:58 PM

I do custom cabinets as well. I always put backs on. My typical construction is 3/4 plywood on all non exposed parts of the cabinet- floors, tops and bottoms, and backs. Finished end panels are integral to the box, not applied over an inner plywood panel.

jack duren

05-10-2015, 3:23 PM

You only need a back where the oven is if you want one. Not required but an option. Some are left out for easy installation. Its really confusing when someone says "custom cabinet shop" whats that mean? Nothing;) .

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Martin Wasner

05-10-2015, 6:51 PM

I could see that getting expensive. What's the justification for using 1/2" back on those? I'm curious?

I don't like nailers. Either making them, putting them in, or what they look like when they are in the cabinet hanging on the wall.
I do birch ply interiors/solid drawers anyways.
Mostly it's just in how it takes a screw. I screw the backs onto the carcass with a 1-3/4" screw, 5' on center, regular veneer core material is a bit spongy for my taste. Also when screwing them to the wall, it's just got a bit more bite for the head of the screw. Overkill? Sure. The bulk of the stuff I build is inset, I do feel that over spec-ing the material for the back does make those wall, and tall boxes a bit more rigid of a cabinet. (Or I'm talking out my rear) Either way, I don't really care, I charge for it. And really, what am I actually saving by going to a lesser product, maybe $500 on $100k worth of product? Pretty minimal if I'm saving $15/sheet. I just ordered a couple of units of the Roseburg plywood I use on the boxes, $72/sheet this round. While I haven't priced it out in a while, I can't imagine the 1/2" is going to be much less than $60/sheet for 1/2" regular VC, and I think I'm paying about $69/sheet for the grade of Baltic Birch that I'm using on the backs. I've found it cheaper at a few places, but I can't find the quality. One face can look like absolute hell, I don't care, just as long as the one face going into the box is flawless. The wall doesn't care if it's full of footballs and ugliness.

Martin Wasner

05-10-2015, 6:56 PM

Its really confusing when someone says "custom cabinet shop" whats that mean? Nothing;) .

This is an incorrect statement.

Custom means made to fit the hole. Box cabinets are modular. So you better pray to your favorite deity that your wall works out to a solid number that works out with whatever layout of modular/box cabinets are available.

Also typically with modular cabinets, you will have a wall of say 96" that is made up of three or four separate boxes, whereas most custom cabinet makers will make that in one box.

Modular cabinets can be very well made, on the flip side, custom cabinets can be complete garbage. Caveat emptor.

jack duren

05-10-2015, 7:00 PM

I don't like nailers. Either making them, putting them in, or what they look like when they are in the cabinet hanging on the wall.
I do birch ply interiors/solid drawers anyways.
Mostly it's just in how it takes a screw. I screw the backs onto the carcass with a 1-3/4" screw, 5' on center, regular veneer core material is a bit spongy for my taste. Also when screwing them to the wall, it's just got a bit more bite for the head of the screw. Overkill? Sure. The bulk of the stuff I build is inset, I do feel that over spec-ing the material for the back does make those wall, and tall boxes a bit more rigid of a cabinet. (Or I'm talking out my rear) Either way, I don't really care, I charge for it. And really, what am I actually saving by going to a lesser product, maybe $500 on $100k worth of product? Pretty minimal if I'm saving $15/sheet. I just ordered a couple of units of the Roseburg plywood I use on the boxes, $72/sheet this round. While I haven't priced it out in a while, I can't imagine the 1/2" is going to be much less than $60/sheet for 1/2" regular VC, and I think I'm paying about $69/sheet for the grade of Baltic Birch that I'm using on the backs. I've found it cheaper at a few places, but I can't find the quality. One face can look like absolute hell, I don't care, just as long as the one face going into the box is flawless. The wall doesn't care if it's full of footballs and ugliness.

This construction is generally used in commercial cabinetry. Cost savings is a preference and usually preferred. Most owners only pay attention to the backs of their cabinets when there empty, after that.....

Martin Wasner

05-10-2015, 7:04 PM

I won't even start a kitchen until the appliances are chosen,

You have to. There is almost no standard to high end appliances, especially in wall ovens. You get into weird dishwasher drawers, microwave drawers, warming drawers, beverage centers, wine coolers, humidors, inset microwaves with trim kits, etc. and the clowns producing that stuff are just making it up as they go.

For poor people, yeah, a microhood needs a 30"x15" opening. The free standing range is 30". The dishwasher is 24". And the fridge is 36x70". You start messing around with rich folk throwing $50k at an appliance package, almost none of those numbers are usable.

And why is it the higher end the appliance, the worse the instructions?

jack duren

05-10-2015, 7:08 PM

Martin Wasner

05-10-2015, 7:13 PM

This construction is generally used in commercial cabinetry. Cost savings is a preference and usually preferred. Most owners only pay attention to the backs of their cabinets when there empty, after that.....

Depends on the commercial shop. I've seen commercial shops that used CDX with plastic laminate on both faces. I've seen commercial shops that just use melamine for everything. I've seen commercial shops that did both depending on the specs given by the customer.

Most everyone cares about cost savings. Then there's certain niche markets that write a blank check and you grind whatever grist the mill requires. Those are the builders that I like. There's no money in working for poor people. Demographics plays a huge roll in that too. I'd starve to death with what I charge if everything was immediately local. But, I charge next to nothing compared to what people are paying in very densely populated area's like the Bay Area, or New York.

That initial reaction is what sells the jobs, or plays a part in selling that $2m spec home. But when they're moved in and it's loaded full of stuff, yeah, nobody cares. :D

Martin Wasner

05-10-2015, 7:18 PM

Modular has its ups and downs. Alco cabinets in Grain Valley Missouri made CNC cabinets and as you would say "custom" cabinets. So should they be called Alco Custom/Non Custom cabinets?

Custom is a broad word in woodworking and cabinetry.

How does having a CNC plow out a dado, rabbet, or drill holes make it modular? If the wall is 94-3/8", and the cabinets are made to fit that hole exactly, that's custom in my book. Now if you're putting two 16" cabinets in, a 40" sink base, and a 24" dishwasher, you're kinda hosed. Or, if you drop it to a 36" sink base, now you've got to add fillers somewhere.

Justin Ludwig

05-10-2015, 8:26 PM

I agree with Martin. Custom is made to fit.

It blows my mind what custom cabinet shops can charge in metropolitan areas. But then, I'm in the bottom of the barrel area as far as designs, styles, and incomes go. Good thing I'm tech savvy. I can offer things the old timers around here can't: renderings and full customization specifically tailored to one's wants/needs. That helps me get the high-end jobs around here. There's only one other cabinet builder in my county and his cabinets are in my kitchen (which kinda drives me nuts). Golden oak, tombstone upper doors, semi-modular with scribe moldings where cabinets butt. He can have those cookie-cutter jobs, I stay busy.