First time spraying CV - I need some emotional support :)

[Mike Dowell]

So, I've got a table top that has to have the king of all moisture resistant finishes. My supplier carries ML Campbell so I picked up a gallon of Envirovar. It's basically a formaldehyde-free (or reduced) conversion varnish. The guy from ML Campbell told me I'd be really happy with how the finish looks and feels. Of course, it's a Maple table top, so it's got basically no texture which will enhance the look of any orange peel, or otherwise undesirable side effects.

Anyway, it's a table top so it's got to be perfect, and I'm spraying something I've never sprayed before, AND I'm on a hard deadline!:eek:

Anyone have any experience with this product or general cv advice? I'd like to convince myself that it shoots just like nitro lacquer but I think that's a stretch.

[Brian W Smith]

What gun/equip are you spraying with?

[Mike Dowell]

I've also got some other guns but this is my best one.

AM-2012RP SERIES REDUCED PRESSURE GUNShttp://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AM-2012RP_a_web.gif (http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AM-2012RP_a_web.gif)
New for 2013! AM-2012RP “Reduced Pressure” – Want a gravity gun that will spray finishes like the old style high pressure guns but with the transfer efficiency of HVLP? This technique is known as Reduced Pressure. This gun utilizes a gun inlet pressure of around 35psi to atomize and lay down clears beautifully but at a transfer efficiency of 67%. The package we put together works for both automotive or woodworking and will spray the most popular finishes with small compressors (only 6 cfm required) Gun incorporates stainless steel in the fluid passages, threaded connector to the cup, nozzle and needle. This upgrade by our factory insures proper performance with waterborne finishes and catalyzed solvent products. Optional aluminum cup for those that prefer one.
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Working Pressure : 35 psi (at gun inlet)
Air Consumption: 6 cfm
Needle/nozzle/air cap: included in kit, 1.4mm, 1.8mm
http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AM-2012RP_case_web-289x300.gif (http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AM-2012RP_case_web.gif)
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[Lee Hingle]

Mike, I use conversion varnish exclusively - but not ML Campbell. I use Sherwin Williams water white CV. I'm not sure if I can help you, but if you have general CV questions I would be glad to help

[Curt Harms]

Probably stating the obvious but I hope you have some maple scraps to experiment with. Sometimes a little experimentation can go a long way.

[Jim Becker]

Always test your finishing regimen on scrap that is the same or similar to your project ... that's a critical step to creating a great finish.

[Brian W Smith]

Agreeing emphatically with testing on scrap......but,at some point,layin down a lot of product does in fact come into play.

The more you spray(think Gallons's)...the better you'll get.Your lighting....your ventilation....your turn-tables.....everything builds experience.

Does or will,that make all the "problems" go away?Of course not.....but the more you practice the more experience you have to pull from.I shot two separate antiques this a.m.The first went fine....great colour,good finish.A few hrs later however and the "conditions" had changed enough that the second pce was way more troublesome.Could we have predicted it?.....yup.But it was only because we'd done it before.

[Mike Dowell]

*POST PROJECT UPDATE*

Ok, I sprayed 3 table tops(after a piece of scrap) and I've got to tell you, this product is the most amazing thing I've ever seen - honestly. First of all, it sprays *better* than lacquer. It lays so flat, it's effortless - I just lay down a wet coat and 45 minutes later, BOOM - perfection. And, it's unbelievably soft to the touch. It honestly feels like a finish that's been rubbed for hours. For anyone looking to try out a conversion varnish, I can't recommend this enough. For folks just now finding this thread, or passers by on the internet search highway, here are some details.

Product used: ML Campbell "Envirovar" conversion varnish

It's $70 for a gallon, and you can only buy the catalyst in gallons which is $35. So, it's an expensive finish to lay down, but you catalyze it at 5% so the catalyst is going to last a LONG time. I used a measuring cup and mixed up batches of 16oz product and .8oz catalyst. I then added 4oz of lacquer thinner. I sprayed this using a 6x6 fan from my RP gun I bought from Jeff at Homestead finishing. Lapping 50%, I got a perfect finish every single time. A couple of notes on the 3 table tops, all of which appear different after the application of this topcoat. Please note that each of these tables was sprayed at the same time, and has 3 full wet coats.

1) Solid maple top - this was a light table, so I stripped it, and sanded it to bare wood. I used no stain or dye at all. I sprayed right onto the plain wood.
2) Antique oak top - this top was sanded down moderately and I used Minwax Dark Walnut which is my go to stain for oak.
3) Solid cherry top - this top was sanded to bare wood, then I sprayed acetone based dyes to get my color

I will say, of the three, the maple top was the most impressive. The finish is absolutely astonishing. It does not appear thick at all, and is extremely transparent and unbelievably soft to the touch. The oak table was my least favorite result. the finish seems really really thick. It looks like it has 5 coats of polyurethane. It is smooth, but seems really thick(although it has the same 3 wet coats as the other tops). The cherry top turned out semi-thick looking and very smooth and flat. The transparency is excellent.

I don't know if my results varied based on the stains, or how the pieces were sanded, but I'm happy with them all. Ideally, I'd like all of these finishes to be like the maple one.

[Leo Graywacz]

I use Krystal by MLC. Sprays nice, I use a Kremlin AAA pump. Sprays well, sometimes you get issues because of putting to thick a coat on. The AAA pump really puts the finish on quick. The finish is about $20 cheaper a gallon.

Glad to hear you had good results. One of the best things about a catalyzed finish is it stretches out as it cures. So if you have a bit of orange peel it'll be gone in the morning.

[Mike Dowell]

I looked at Krystal but I went with the EnviroVar because it was a no formaldehyde system. That said, once you spray that and the dust clears the shop, the off gassing is unreal! It takes a couple hours with the fan on(and I have a no bs exhaust fan that can cycle the shop air in about 2 minutes). When I spray NC lacquer, I suck the dust out with the fan, and I'm back in the shop working on other stuff while it sets.


One of the best things about a catalyzed finish is it stretches out as it cures. So if you have a bit of orange peel it'll be gone in the morning.

Do you find this only with post-catalyzed products? The reason I ask is that I have had orange peel issues with pre-cat lacquers before - and they weren't gone in the morning :(

[Leo Graywacz]

I have a dedicated spray room and a drying room. My fan is 3HP @ 36", moves about 17,000 CFM

[Jamie Buxton]

Deep inside the Envirovar product sheet I see a sentence that says "For a non-yellowing finish use Krystal, KlearVar or High Performance Conversion Varnish." That implies that Envirovar does yellow. Any thoughts, or comments from ML Campbell?

[Jamie Buxton]

I looked at Krystal but I went with the EnviroVar because it was a no formaldehyde system. That said, once you spray that and the dust clears the shop, the off gassing is unreal! ....

ML Campbell says "formaldehyde free" and "low odor" and "HAPs free", but the stuff still stinks so much you don't stay in the shop, hunh?

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, this is very interesting. Where did you spray? It's low VOC, but it's still solvent based, right? Are you using an explosion proof fan? Can you post some pictures of the tables?

[Mike Dowell]

The tables are all gone. We delivered two of them, and the other customer picked up this morning! I should have taken pictures though - I just forgot. I wanted to post them up.

I spray in my shop, and no, I do not use explosion-proof anything. Actually, in the winter, I spray indoors with a pilot light! But, knock on wood, I've never been blown up.

I do find it ironic that it's supposed to be some sort of eco-friendly setup but stinks so awfully. The only way I can describe it is that the entire shop smells like the inside of a lacquer can. Not like when I spray NC lacquer, and the off gassing barely bothers.

Oh, and for these applications, I don't need to worry about yellowing. But, for the record, ML Campbell did say that the main difference between Krystal and Envirovar was the yellowing.