to Combo or not, in a 2 car garage

[mark mcfarlane]

First post (in a few years), newbie here. Been reading a few hours a day for a few months.

Background: I had a serviceable shop 15 years ago, built some furniture, boxes, etc, mostly plywood, then moved overseas (again) and sold the stationary stuff. Plan to retire next year and rebuild my woodshop to make builtins (sheet/solid) and furniture (solid). Hoping to spend a lot of time in the shop :).

Picked up a few Festool pieces last year (track saw, MFT, vac, and two sanders) to make some solid wood shelfs for my son during my vacation. Fun project, except the S4S oak I bought at the local borg wasn't very flat, and making dados for curved wood with an ATB track saw and chisel took a tad longer than expected...

My new shop has a 2 1/4 car garage that is going to need to house at least one car periodically, water softener, other garage crap (we're on a lake). Mobility will be helpful. Montgomery, Texas. Hot Humid, gotta rip out the walls, wire, insulate, AC,... It has lovely built in cabinets along 2 walls that need to come down,...

I'm envisioning a dust collector, band saw, jointer/planer, table saw, router table/shaper, and assembly bench as the floor space hogs.

Been studying the Hammer combo machine (saw, shaper, jointer, planer) recently. Probably with the smallest slider, maybe one size up. Seems reasonable for a one man 2-car shop: fewer places for power, fewer places for dust collection, no rush production work,... Another thought is to try to avoid a table saw altogether, and live with a bandsaw and MFT/track saw. The MFT/Track saw actually worked great making my sons book cases and I've seen many awesome ideas for MFT setups here and at the Festool forum that could supplant a table saw in terms of performance, but probably not speed and convenience.

So,... anyone running a combo slider/jointer/planer in your 2-car garage? Enough room to work med sized furniture pieces with the door closed? Easy enough to move the 1000lb machine on a relatively flat epoxy-over-concrete floor? Annoying changing over functions? What size slider did you get? Anything you regret? Anything else to share/consider?

Cost isn't a major consideration for me going combo, space is. I can put all my 'normal garage crap' along the 1/4 car wall, leaving room for one car and essentially one car-space for shop gear that will need to be moved for projects. There's also some space at the back (the garage is 4' deeper than a SUV) for some storage, sliding stuff under benches.

I've spent 20 of the last 30 years in strange lands and saved up for the retirement shop. 18 months from now I'm building it, unless I extend my current gig for other year...

Thanks,

Mark

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a Hammer B3 Winner with the 49" slider and outrigger and an A3-31 jointer/planer in a shop the size of a one car garage.

I also have a cyclone, a 17" band saw and drill press, plus workbench and storage cabinets.

Put both machines on the Hammer mobility kit, do not use casters.

I suggest you buy the saw/shaper not the saw and separate shaper as it saves space and money. It's really nice to have a sliding table, tilting spindle shaper in the space saving footprint.

I normally don't have the outrigger on the machine, I put it on when I need it, maybe a 2 minute job, no tools required.

Regards, Rod.

[James Baker SD]

I bought the saw/shaper combo and a separate joiner/planer combo. This allows the slider to remain in a fixed position along one side of the garage. The joiner/planer is on the other side and is on a mobile base, but it is much easier to move than the slider. I would also have a little fear about my sliding table retaining its perfect adjustment (which took me quite a while to dial in) if I moved it frequently.

So I can't quite answer your question about a full combo, but I can operate the slider's full range of motion with the garage door closed. Glad I don't have to try to move its weight any longer, it was tough enough getting it into location once. I do not mind the change over. Yes, separate machines in a really big shop would be nicer, but the space savings for a garage shop (which has a car in almost every night) more than makes up for the change over effort. With the car backed out, I have plenty of space for large furniture pieces. I have only 39" rip capacity to the right of the blade, but I do most of my ripping on the sliding table and outrigger anyway.

[mark mcfarlane]

...I suggest you buy the saw/shaper not the saw and separate shaper as it saves space and money. It's really nice to have a sliding table, tilting spindle shaper in the space saving footprint. I normally don't have the outrigger on the machine, I put it on when I need it, maybe a 2 minute job, no tools required. Regards, Rod.

Thanks Rod. Where do you store the outrigger and how much does it weigh?

My only shaper experience is on an old Delta benchtop, which was really a router table with a warped aluminum top and poor fence that was immediately replaced with a home built. Do you mostly use shaper heads/knives, or did you get router collets (is there even a 1/2 and/or 1/4 collet for the Winner?) I suspect that if I get a shaper I'll mostly end up using it as a router table, and maybe for glue joints on tables, but likely not profiling moldings,... but you never know where this will lead.

[mark mcfarlane]

I bought the saw/shaper combo and a separate joiner/planer combo. This allows the slider to remain in a fixed position along one side of the garage. The joiner/planer is on the other side and is on a mobile base, but it is much easier to move than the slider. I would also have a little fear about my sliding table retaining its perfect adjustment (which took me quite a while to dial in) if I moved it frequently...

Thanks James

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Mark,

I'm not a pro or semi-pro as many members of this forum are, but as a serious hobbyist with nearing retirement, I found we are in a very similar position. So, I thought it would be helpful to share my experience.

1) Previously a small table saw (Ryobi BT3100) was the center of my basement shop but since I bought MFT + TS55, my table saw is no longer used. Festool combo can cut more accurately and safely, with less dust. The weakest link is, however, solid-wood rip longer than that table and narrower than the guide rail.
2) An upgrade of my bandsaw to a heavy european was also transformative. A good bandsaw that can tension a 1-inch blade turns it a precision machine. MM16 has a very solid reputation. Powermatic looks good too. I have Felder FB510. You may be able to get a good deal for Hammer/Felder bandsaws with a combined purchase and get them delivered all together. I do all solid wood ripping using this bandsaw. Together with Festool and the bandsaw, all ground is covered and no need of a table saw. Of course, there are operations that can be done more efficiently and accurately by a tablesaw and for pro shops, that could be deal breaker, but we are hobbyist. A couple of handplane or jointer pass to remove the bandsaw marks is not a big deal (at least for me). I suggest you to read "My five essential tools" by Gary Rogowski in Fine Woodworking. In his list, tablesaw didn't make it and I start to understand what he says. Oh, also, I feel a lot safer to rip woods with a bandsaw. It is also quietter. Important points for hobbyists.
3) Then I have A331. Smooth, quiet, accurate. Fantastic. The change over is physically trivial (30 sec), but I have to admit that I often found myself trying to avoid using the planer. This may be partly due to the change over but largely due to the fact that planing is, in general, a slow process because you can remove only so much in each pass. Once I got a good bandsaw, after I finish a face and an edge by the A331 jointer, I use the bandsaw for the width and thickness. If all four faces need to be completely dressed, few jointer passes may be needed, but I often leave them as is if they will end up in the inside of the funiture. So, I start to understand why a planer was not in the Rogowski's list. Anyway, if you buy A331, the planer comes free, right?
4) Then Domino. When I was using a tablesaw, uniform width and thickness was often must for accurate joinary because distances are measured from both sides. Domino requires only one reference surface. I guess my joinary skill actually went down because Domino makes so many things so easily and accurately; compound-angle tennon, edge glue, breadboard end, etc. It nicely complements the lack of the tablesaw.
5) A compound miter saw: I was skeptical until I bought it. Kapex is nice. It is light and you can store under the MFT. You can buy an extension wing, which can be stowed and deployed easily. This is another tool that made the Rogowski's top 5 and now I understand why, although I guess you can live without it unless you often need a miter or compound angles like chairs.

So, I guess I would suggest you to do up to #4 or #5 and see how it goes. How much space left and think if you would give up more space for the sake of efficiency of the tablesaw.

6) I guess the odd ball is the shaper. I hate universal motors. I was so happy when I removed two screamers; the lunch-box planer and the small tablesaw. Now my eyes are on the shop-made router table, which is slowly disintegrating. I am following Rod Sheridan's suggestion about the shaper. I can see how useful the sliding table and outligger would be for a shaper. Then, if I buy a sliding-table shaper, why not a saw/shaper? OK, this is where I am now for the past few months. If I buy a B3 saw/shaper, my shop would become almost identical to yours. Curretnly, a Festool 1010 router and MFT/guide rail are taking care of most of my router needs, but I may pull the trigger soon.

Hope my experience is helpful.

[Todd Willhoit]

So,... anyone running a combo slider/jointer/planer in your 2-car garage? Enough room to work med sized furniture pieces with the door closed? Easy enough to move the 1000lb machine on a relatively flat epoxy-over-concrete floor? Annoying changing over functions? What size slider did you get? Anything you regret? Anything else to share/consider?

Mark,
You will find some good commentary on using a combo in a two-car garage at the links below. As you navigate around the Solowoodworker site, you will also find information about the smaller MiniMax machines that compare favorably with the Hammer line.

http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/combo.html
http://plesums.com/wood/shop/carfit.html

Personally, I have a MM CU300 Classic. I am not far from you. If you want to see it sometime, don't hesitate to send a PM.

Todd

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark,
You will find some good commentary on using a combo in a two-car garage at the links below. ...
Todd

Thanks Todd. FWIW, I'd have a hard time working in that shop in the links. I'm kind of a neat freak. When I get back to the USA I might take you up on a visit, that was thoughtful, thanks.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Here's a guy that made a series on videos for his Minimax CU300. Really nicely done and gives you a good sense for how it works/etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpi1iSiR8ZE&list=PLVlHi90LHSWNBQlmEfewFiyb6CcH7wnbi

[Jamie Buxton]

If you go full 5-function, you have to believe in the slider approach for the table saw. There are many folks who do. There are many folks who don't.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark,...
Hope my experience is helpful.

Thanks Susumi, this is helpful. Kapex and Domino are already on my list, and possibly an LR32 setup, but thats for another thread. I need to reload my FWW archive DVD and check out Gary's article, or resubscribe. It is probably a good idea for me to work a few projects without a table saw before making the investment, just to see how it is. I've done some moderately narrow rips with the TS55 to face frame my sons shelf units, I just put another board behind it, but I haven't tried ripping off a 1/4" yet for, e.g., an edge band. I've seen some very creative solutions for extensions to the standard MFT/3 to stabilize an 8 foot board or sheet.

[Jim Dwight]

I am also nearing retirement but I may work as many as 5 more years. At least a couple. We also bought a lake house but it is a lake project house. Looks nice on the outside and has some nice features but it is poorly insulated in spots, needs a kitchen and needs new bathrooms. The lot is close to town on year round water but that means the house was built 50 years ago - the oldest parts.

One thing we got done last year was to add a 14x24 one car garage for my shop. My wife doesn't want my mess where she parks. She also thinks garages are for storage. So the other 2 car has some of her stuff in it.

I have a DeWalt track saw with home made parallel guides. I still use my BT3100 table saw but I took the wide table kit off it. I am finishing a 8 foot cabinet with the 12 inch CMS and RAS on top - wood storage above. I have 10 drawers made with 6 more to go. That should get most of my portable tools out of boxes. I still need to build a rolling workbench with a Paulk style worktop. It will probably be 3 feet by 7 feet and will be used for cutting up sheet goods and general workbench use. You already have a MFT which does a lot of the same things as a Paulk workbench but is much smaller. I would watch some of the Paul videos. You may or may not like his ideas. He is a home builder/carpenter - not a furniture maker. He is pretty windy but he seems to know what he is doing. I've put up quite a bit of crown molding, for instance, but his videos still taught me a few things on hanging crown.

I'm not thinking of any fancier table saw. I want one but my BT3100 is precise and works fine for me. I've built several bedroom sets and other furniture on it. It also works fine with my shop vacuum. I am currently planning to get rid of my DC to save space. I think I can get by with a shop vacuum (mine is on a cart with a dust deputy and has a hepa filter). I need the shop vac anyway for the track saw and other hand-held and it works better on my CMS than my DC did. A DC takes up quite a bit of space which is at a premium for me.

The one Festool I would like to have is the Domino, probably the littler one. I have a benchtop hollow chisel mortiser but the Domino looks like it would speed things up. Right now I am doing shop and house stuff so I don't really need it. I'm using pocket screws and through screws on my shop cabinets. I might dovetail a few drawers but pocket screws work fine and are fast. Machine cut dovetails are not a lot slower but I have a lot more projects than time right now.

Good luck.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought a Hammer K3 Winner last year, having a sliding tablesaw combo shaper would be awesome to me. I have a shaper, stand alone, but also have a 26 x 66 shop. The sliding tablesaw is fantastic, use mine to put a perfect straight edge on solid wood, and square up panels. You can get panels within less than 1/32" measured diagonally. Having flat, square boards makes your projects turn out very well.

[Jim Matthews]

Have you done a mockup, including scale size models?

That's a lot of hardware, in a multi-use space.
Hauling around gear this size is an exercise in itself.

What method do you employ, now?
What pieces of gear would be additions to
your current mode of work?

Have you taken any extension courses, using
similar equipment? (Test drive)

[mark mcfarlane]

Have you done a mockup, including scale size models?

That's a lot of hardware, in a multi-use space.
Hauling around gear this size is an exercise in itself.

What method do you employ, now?
What pieces of gear would be additions to
your current mode of work?

Have you taken any extension courses, using
similar equipment? (Test drive)

No mockups yet, have done some hand sketches, will model before rigging up the shop. The garage is empty now, sold off my shop 15 years ago. Haven't used a combo machine ever, but have a tentative appt in Dallas this summer to check out some Hammer/Felder combo units, but they don't have much on display at that location. I think the gear will all fit, but wood storage will be a problem...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I've done it, photos on my member page. Moving a five function machine regularly is a pain, so if you really need it to be portable to put a car in, that is a deal breaker in my opinion. My felder is a full 8' plus slider, and the garage was smaller than yours. It's pretty tight, but effective. Keep in mind the shop in my pics is smaller than the one you are talking about, also includes a 36" bandsaw, a big workbench, a lathe, chopsaw station, and a refrigerator and freezer for the house.

Disclaimer, I moved into a much bigger shop, and it is nicer.

[mark mcfarlane]

I've done it, photos on my member page. Moving a five function machine regularly is a pain, so if you really need it to be portable to put a car in, that is a deal breaker in my opinion. My felder is a full 8' plus slider, and the garage was smaller than yours. It's pretty tight, but effective. Keep in mind the shop in my pics is smaller than the one you are talking about, also includes a 36" bandsaw, a big workbench, a lathe, chopsaw station, and a refrigerator and freezer for the house.

Disclaimer, I moved into a much bigger shop, and it is nicer.

Thanks Steve, that bandsaw is intimidating. The 741 takes up a lot of space, good to see in a garage. I'm thinking more of a 12" planer and 50" slider, and using the tracksaw or do 'old school sliding the wood' when I need to rip something long.

[Jim Matthews]

What sort of capability does your lumberyard have?

If they can do the rough stuff for you,
you can more easily handle the stash.

Imagine the longest thing you're likely to ever make.
How much space would that lumber take up in your shop,
as opposed to waiting for you at the Lumber rack until you're ready...

A couple years ago I realized why the retail outlets are called 'stores'.

I'm five years at it, and have never needed a power jointer or planer.
I use my bandsaw two, maybe three times a month.

It really gets me out of jams and produces the resawn stuff I most like for drawer fronts.

I'm not convinced that a combo machine is a better choice than a well tuned 8" jointer.
Those aren't immense and square most anything a hobbyist is likely to build.

If it was my money (and it isn't, so forgive me for speaking out of turn) I would start out
with a DJ-20 or a clone, and a solid lunchbox planer - first. The current crop of benchtop planers are excellent.

If those are insufficient to your approach, upgrade.

My guess is that your garage will fill up fast, and you'll be doing the hokey-pokey just to get around all the gear.

Unless you've got a stash of really cheap, beautiful lumber that you can't get anywhere else,
it doesn't make sense to invest in milling equipment that your lumberyard likely has already.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I have a Minimax C26 combo (sliding saw, shaper, jointer, planer) in a shop about the size of a one car garage. Also have a floor drill press, router table, 2 workbenches and a 12 inch bandsaw in it. Tight, yes but can make some fairly large pieces. I love the slider. It is something like 46 inches, I wish it was a few inches longer. My outrigger is attached all the time, but I can take the table part off easily to reduce the size. Takes maybe 30 secs. Good luck with your decision.

[Rich Riddle]

I use a combo unit in a very tight two-car garage. For some reasons wives always think garages are made to house cars.

[Allan Speers]

Man, I came SOOO close to getting a combo machine, but I was looking at only a jointer-planer. I have ZERO use for a sliding table TS as I use a Eurekazone tracksaw system. this is superior even to a sliding TS for breaking down sheet goods. For small stuff, a simple sled on a regular tablesaw is all you need. (& I personally don't even need THAT.)

So if you can forget about a big slider altogether, here's why you may not even want just a jointer-planer:
-----------------------------------------------


I actually had the opportunity to snag a great-condition Grizzly G034 12" combo with helical head, for $1200. (I kid you not) but I decided against it, for a few reasons:

1: I really, REALLY don't need a jointer. I don't mind the slight inconvenience of using a planer sled. (And I made a really good sled)

2: Even on that Grizzly, the performance & functionality of the planer part is slightly compromised.
- It has a very short table, and the table is a little too low to the ground. (about 6" lower than your typical stand-alone planer)
- The head is helical, but not a true shelix (shear-helical)
- It is a fixed speed (and too fast for my liking)
- The overall technical build is not as good as some older planers. (Breaker bar, ease of adjustments, etc)

3: The jointer isn't a trapezoidal design. You have to level it with shims. (No thanks!)

4: Most combo machines I considered saved space left-to-right, but they are extra-deep (especially that Grizzly) so they don't quite save as much room as you think.

5: The deal breaker for me: It's not too hard to switch from jointing to planing, taking about 1 minute. However, in order to switch back to jointing, you have to completely lower the planer's table ! Not only is that a huge PITA, you lose your planer's setting.

As soon as I realized that, it was over. - The same is true with the 10" jet, and that inexpensive Rikon. The only Jointer-Planer that doesn't have this problem is the 12" Jet, but that costs around $3500.

---------------------

I ended up with a 1987 Powermatic 100, which will be getting a shelix head, and I'm REALLY happy with my decision:

Incredible finish quality, and literally NO snipe. (Grizzly combo owners complain of snipe, and finish quality is iffy.)
24" table.
Non-serrated outfeed roller so it doesn't mar the stock. (The Grizzly does.)
Table height right where it should be.
Only 1 speed, but unlike the combo machine, the Powermatic is a SLOW 15 FPM, for best quality. The Grizzly was 22 FPM.
3 HP Baldor motor, not some import of questionable true power & dependability.
Resale value for days .......
---------------------------------

Now as it happens, a 1940's Delta 6" jointer also just happened to follow me home. (it was free, including a huge 1 HP R/I motor!) I don't really have room for it, and may sell it soon, but the point here is that I can wheel the PM 100 against the wall, then roll the Delta jointer in front of it, and it's only a few inches deeper than the Grizzly combo ! If you could find a 6" or 8" long bed jointer, you'd have no regrets.

Realize that even without a planer sled, you don't need more than an 8" jointer, as long as your blade guard comes completely off the table. You can research the detail, but it's very easy to joint a little more than half you stock's width, then run it through you planer. (No fancy sled needed,no shims, just a simple strip of wood and a cleat.)

[mark mcfarlane]

deleted - duplicate post

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Jim, Allen and others for the insights..

Regarding lumber yards, that's still something I need to research. As mentioned in the original post, I live overseas. My retirement home is in an area I haven't lived before, and I only visit it for a few weeks a year, so I still need to do some exploring. I'm headed there next week for a few weeks vacation. I visited one mill in Hunstville, Tx that had a lot of red oak and mesquite and not much else when i made my field trip a couple years ago. http://www.mgsawmill.com/product.htm. That's probably the closest hardwood place to me, about an hour drive. I don't envision storing a lifetime supply of wood, but I don't see running off to the lumber yard for every project either. I'll try to do some more lumberyard driveway this summer.

My last shop was bench top tools and an old Delta contractor TS that I built a huge, flat, stable rolling cabinet for, 52" Beismeyer.... I spent half my project time aligning tools, changing cutters, and building jigs, and always wanted more capacity in everything except the saw. I did have some custom kitchen cabinets built for me about 20 years ago, on my driveway. Skilled gentleman had a benchtop planer, contractor saw, and cutoff saw and made great cabinets very quickly. He contracted out the doors and drawers, and finish work

Still thinking, I have 18 more months before serious spending, so I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, once you use the shaper for profiling with an inexpensive 40mm Euroblock head, you'll never do it on a router table again.

My B3 won't take router bits, yours will. Doesn't bother me as I don't own any and HSS knives for the Euroblock head are often less expensive than a router bit and work a lot better (solid wood only).

If you have the option buy the 30mm, 1 1/4" and router spindle for your machine.

I hang my outrigger on the wall, I guess it has a mass of 10Kg.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I see several references to track saws being as good as a slider. The track saw is a good tool, but there is no comparison on capabilities. A track saw requires setup of some sort for each cut, the slider does not. A track saw requires much more measuring, which increases chances for error. Most sliders have scoring blades, which are a great feature for most sheet goods. The slider is FAR faster than a track saw for anything. Of course a slider costs more, but careful shopping can reduce the difference.

Now my favorite misconception, space savings. A track saw processing a sheet of ply takes as much room as the sheet of ply. A slider processing a sheet of ply takes as much room as a moving sheet of ply. It's really not a lot more space. When not processing big stuff, it is perfectly possible to shrink the size of a slider by removing the slider. This will give you a footprint for a full function combo machine that is quite a bit smaller than a 50" american style table saw.

Track saws have been around for much longer than Festool or the others have been making them, it's just a straight edge and a circular saw. Yes, the expensive stuff has a bit more bells and whistles, but you can make the exact same cut with a good blade in a cheap skilsaw and a straight edge. The euro sliding saw is such a different technology that it offers legit advantages. Add in the amazing capabilities of the other functions, and all of a sudden you have a whole different bag of tricks.

You can work wood with a hunk of flint and some creativity, so while the tools can increase efficiency, they aren't the key. What a tool can add is increased capabilities. There are two types of us, those who can look at a combo machine and understand what it can add to our abilities, and those that look at one and don't get it. For the former group, a euro style machine will be a welcome addition to your shop, for the later, it'd be wasted money. Makes no difference to me which group anyone else is in, but I know that I will not willingly ever go back to a less capable machine.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hi Mark, once you use the shaper for profiling with an inexpensive 40mm Euroblock head, you'll never do it on a router table again.

My B3 won't take router bits, yours will. Doesn't bother me as I don't own any and HSS knives for the Euroblock head are often less expensive than a router bit and work a lot better (solid wood only).

If you have the option buy the 30mm, 1 1/4" and router spindle for your machine.

I hang my outrigger on the wall, I guess it has a mass of 10Kg.

Regards, Rod.

Hi Rod, I still haven't gotten one of those heads yet. Been using the dedicated cutters instead, but would like to get one. Which do you recommend? I see felder/hammers stuff, but should I look at others too?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rod, I still haven't gotten one of those heads yet. Been using the dedicated cutters instead, but would like to get one. Which do you recommend? I see felder/hammers stuff, but should I look at others too?

Steve, I would only buy one that's MAN rated which means it will have to be one with chip limiters as well as knives.

Do you have a 30MM spindle for your machine? Felder often have cutter sales and the 30mm are often much less expensive of course.

You can buy one from any company that sells them, just make sure you get the chip limiters................Regards, Rod.

[Jim Matthews]

You're on the right track.

Think this through, and keep your credit card locked down.
I really want a jointer/planer with a mortising attachment.

After last Winter, where we had nearly ten feet of snow piled on either side of the driveway,
that dream took a long last walk off onto the iceflow with nothing but a blanket and a day's rations...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I would only buy one that's MAN rated which means it will have to be one with chip limiters as well as knives.

Do you have a 30MM spindle for your machine? Felder often have cutter sales and the 30mm are often much less expensive of course.

You can buy one from any company that sells them, just make sure you get the chip limiters................Regards, Rod.

Thanks Rod, you can't beat the cost per profile with one of these. Add the tilting shaper and you can do a lot of different things for not much cash.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, once you use the shaper for profiling with an inexpensive 40mm Euroblock head, you'll never do it on a router table again.

My B3 won't take router bits, yours will. Doesn't bother me as I don't own any and HSS knives for the Euroblock head are often less expensive than a router bit and work a lot better (solid wood only).

If you have the option buy the 30mm, 1 1/4" and router spindle for your machine.

I hang my outrigger on the wall, I guess it has a mass of 10Kg.

Regards, Rod.

Rod, I have little knowledge about shapers or theirspindles, but 30mm and 1 1/4" are pretty close to the same diameter. Why do you recommend both?

[Frank Martin]

I have a Minimax CU300 Smart combo with 5.5ft slider in a two car garage hobby shop. I love the machine. Before this had a Unisaw with a router table in the wing and a Grizzly jointer/planer combo. Love the Minimax for quality and precision. I don't find the combo inconvenient at all. With a bit of planning it works well. In my case, I would not go with a separate saw/shaper and jointer/planer because of the larger footprint. I feel this is the largest combo I can fit in my space. In addition to this I also have an 18" Italian bandsaw, a floor standing drill press, an Oneida cyclone as well as a wall mounted Router Boss. These are my major machines in addition to bunch of handheld power tools and hand tools. Works for me.

[mark mcfarlane]

I have a Minimax CU300 Smart combo with 5.5ft slider in a two car garage hobby shop. I love the machine. Before this had a Unisaw with a router table in the wing and a Grizzly jointer/planer combo. Love the Minimax for quality and precision. I don't find the combo inconvenient at all. With a bit of planning it works well. In my case, I would not go with a separate saw/shaper and jointer/planer because of the larger footprint. I feel this is the largest combo I can fit in my space. In addition to this I also have an 18" Italian bandsaw, a floor standing drill press, an Oneida cyclone as well as a wall mounted Router Boss. These are my major machines in addition to bunch of handheld power tools and hand tools. Works for me.

Frank, Can you still get a car inside?

[Frank Martin]

Frank, Can you still get a car inside?

No, most definitely not. I also have a workbench and some cabinets for tool storage. There is no way to fit a car. I live in Southern California so other than cars getting dirty faster outside there is not much reason to park in the garage.

[Erik Loza]

I have a Minimax CU300 Smart combo with 5.5ft slider in a two car garage hobby shop. I love the machine. Before this had a Unisaw with a router table in the wing and a Grizzly jointer/planer combo. Love the Minimax for quality and precision. I don't find the combo inconvenient at all...

+1 ^^^

Have LOTS of CU300's in garage-type shops. Unless you have a ton of other stuff in there (as it sounds like Frank M. does...), you should be able to park a car in there, no problem. The CU300 is mobile. Remove the fences, mortising unit, etc., then just push it into the corner and when you're not using it.

Just my 2-cents: If you're starting from scratch, it always makes more sense to buy a full 4-in-1 combo over two separates, assuming you have the budget. Several reasons:

1.) Space: A separate saw/shaper, assuming you get it with the 50" rip table to the right of the blade, already takes up more space the entire full 4-in-1 machine, just by itself. Then, you have find room for the jointer/planer if you have that as a separate unit.

2.) Cost: Not sure how it is for competitors but I would guess it's the same, since manufacturing is manufacturing: The full 4-in-1 is probably a third cheaper than buying the separate jointer/planer and saw/shaper.

3.) "It's just better to have separates..". I've heard that for years. What's better about it? Sure, for a production environment where multiple guys are in there working at once but I actually prefer the full combo for the reason that you can park it right in the center of your workspace, which allows you to circulate freely around the machine. One dust hose, one electrical hookup. Having your entire machining center in one platform is definitely not a drawback, at least not in my experience. The only compelling reason to buy separates over a full 4-in-1 would be if you already had one of the machines in question or if the budget wasn't there. Otherwise, it's a no brainer...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/IWF%20CU300%20Classic/IWFCU300-1_zps25a350d2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/ShopCU300Smart.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Viewfromabove.jpg

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik

[James Baker SD]

+1 ^^^

3.) "It's just better to have separates..". I've heard that for years. What's better about it?
Erik

One thought Erik, admittedly does not apply to everyone. I have no need to get behind the slider/shaper combo and the overhead blade guard limits my right of blade rip cut anyway. Machine is fixed in position along the wall. Joiner/planer combo sits on other side of garage, no need to get behind it either most of the time. Makes SWMBO happy to have the car in at night (even in So. Cal) and she also approves the tool budget. A full combo needs access from all sides last time I looked and that means it sits in the middle of the work area. Either I move it a lot or wife is not happy.

[Frank Martin]

+1 ^^^

Have LOTS of CU300's in garage-type shops. Unless you have a ton of other stuff in there (as it sounds like Frank M. does...), you should be able to park a car in there, no problem. The CU300 is mobile. Remove the fences, mortising unit, etc., then just push it into the corner and when you're not using it.


Erik

I am sure it is technically possible to fit the CU300 combo in a two car garage and still park one car, but that would likely be a bit inconvenient. It would mean that you don't have much else in the way of tools and storage cabinets and don't mind the convenience of moving the machine after using it.

If you are interested in Minimax give Erik a call, I bought mine used, so have not had a chance to deal with them in a purchase scenario. But Minimax is a great company and having Erik as a member here is a great resource.

[John Lankers]

I have a Felder CF 531 in my 3 car garage and my problem is I have to have it accessible from all sides which requires more room than I can afford. I'm in the process of replacing the CF 531 with a AD 741 and KF 700S both of them can be placed against a wall which makes more sense for my setup. Placing a full combo in the middle of the shop is not always the best option.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, I have little knowledge about shapers or theirspindles, but 30mm and 1 1/4" are pretty close to the same diameter. Why do you recommend both?

Hi Mark, most of the world, and hence most of the tooling is metric.

You'll find that companies like Felder often run sales and the metric tooling can be significantly less expensive.

It also allows you to run your dado set in the shaper as an adjustable groover if you want, which will save you about $400 to start if you have a 30mm spindle for it.......Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, here's a video showing the new shaper spindle system available on the Hammer products as well as the Felders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2QSAdD0bi4

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

One thought Erik, admittedly does not apply to everyone. I have no need to get behind the slider/shaper combo and the overhead blade guard limits my right of blade rip cut anyway. Machine is fixed in position along the wall. Joiner/planer combo sits on other side of garage, no need to get behind it either most of the time. Makes SWMBO happy to have the car in at night (even in So. Cal) and she also approves the tool budget. A full combo needs access from all sides last time I looked and that means it sits in the middle of the work area. Either I move it a lot or wife is not happy.

James, that is interesting and an important comment: Each person's own work flow...

Back when Minimax USA was doing the trade show circuit, we traveled the country with a CU300 5.5' and MM16 bandsaw. At each show, I rolled out the CU300 and demo'ed "around the machine", in a clockwise fashion. The booth was tight and that workflow worked was good for me. But I understand that everyone has their own mojo. Personally, I would rather roll out the CU300 into the middle of the floor than have two stationary machines ut I was used to "rolling out" the CU300 quite a bit, sooo...

Erik

[Jim Becker]

There certainly are some shop space/configuration situations where a separate J/P and Saw/Shaper makes sense...my shop is one of them because of a stairway that interferes with machine placement...but I do agree that "separates are better" is somewhat unfounded as a reason to avoid combos for a one-man shop in most cases. That's largely just resistance to change. I've found that the change in work habits afforded by or required by my "combo" machines has actually been a very positive thing relative to the work I do. (when I have the opportunity do actually do it, but that's a whole 'nuther issue... )