Razor Sharp Edgemaking, grinding wheel combo

[Mike Holbrook]

I am wondering if anyone has tried this sharpening/grinding combo of two wheels and grinding/buffing compounds? According to Woodcraft this grinding buffing combo "virtually eliminating any chance of bluing your tools". They claim these two laminated paper wheels will create a mirror finish. The combo of a grinding wheel, buffing wheel, silicon carbide, conditioning grease, jewelers rouge and instructions costs $56.99. I am wondering if the conditioning grease and grit combo might produce less airborne particles than friable wheels? It sounds kind of like a spinning MDF wheel with compounds and grease to alter and control the wheels cutting ability.

[Derek Cohen]

Do you have a link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I am very much opposed to such edge buffing methods. They produce rounded edges. Pretty sharp,but excessively rounded for my taste. And,not as sharp as can be obtained by hand sharpening and stropping. They also wear out your tools a lot faster than hand honing will.

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek I'm not sure the rules are ok with me linking to a Woodcraft page. If you go to Woodcraft and search "grinding wheels" a little minor scrolling should reveal the product.

George, I had/have similar initial concerns. On the other hand MDF may not be much different. Micarta, used in knife handles among other things, is a paper based resin impregnation that is very hard. I think the wood pulp just gives the resin/binder something to absorb into. As I understand it these are not "soft" buffing wheels like the felt or leather wheels but something more like MDF. One of the wheels is actually suppose to be for grinding in combo with the silicon carbide. A complete grinding and polishing system. What is silicon carbide? I know what silicon is and I know what carbide is, is this substance carbide in silicon? I have already said more than I understand though which is why I am making the post.

[Jim Koepke]

I have already said more than I understand though which is why I am making the post.

Maybe a look from a different perspective would provide answers.

My question is what is your current sharpening set up and what has you looking to change it?

jtk

[Allen Jordan]

I have this kit and use it often for sharpening curved edges. I make knives and there is nothing better out there for sharpening them. Usually about 30 seconds to a nice razor edge... raise a burr with the coarse grit wheel, then strop it off on the fine rouge wheel, done. I also sharpen drawknives, axes, heavily cambered plane irons and the like this way. They're not the best for straight edges like chisels or planes, I'll only sharpen beater chisels on the paper wheels because of the speed.

Paper wheels do take a few uses to condition properly with wax/rouge. While conditioning, it's easy to burn an edge if you stop moving. After conditioning, I've had no problems with this. Practice with junk knives until you get the hang of them.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim, I'm afraid the answer to your question could get quite involved. Just like many others I am always looking to enhance my sharpening system(s). I have a number of older posts that describe what I have:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?230449-Multiple-grinders-sharpening-stations-for-turning&highlight=
The above post I am running on the turners forum as I have particular questions regarding sharpening turning tools. I ran a similar post here on the Neander site. Part of the solution has to do with the tool rests and jigs available to go with the grinders many people use. I have posts on that topic as well. As the above post tries to explain I am sharpening some odd shaped hand tool blades for Windsor Chair making as well as turning tools. In addition I have a large selection of interesting edged blades I use clearing brush, trimming trees etc. on our 12 acre dog club fields and woods...

The main interest I have in the above wheels has to do with me possibly buying a second grinder. I bought a Delta fairly recently but I am having trouble using the tool rests I bought to use with CBN wheels on the Delta grinder. Apparently Delta and other companies have started making the arbors on their grinders shorter, making it harder to use them with CBN wheels and some of the larger tool rests and tool jigs, like the Wolverine and Batty rests. I am considering putting the CBN wheels on a better grinder with a longer arbor and smaller base. I could then use normal width wheels on the Delta grinder. I am reading that some steels will load CBN wheels and become hard to clean off. So I am thinking about a grinding and buffing wheel for the Delta grinder to handle softer steels that may cause problems on the CBN wheels.

I like the MDF block I use with buffing compounds to polish/finish blade surfaces. My issue with the MDF block is it is a little slow and rounded blades do not fit on it. Peter Galbert charges a hard wood dowel placed on his lathe as a buffing finishing tool for his hand tools and turning tools. I have seen Drew Langsner at Country Workshops use a similar set up quite effectively for sharpening all the tools used in his classes. I am wondering if I might be able to do something similar on my Delta grinder suing the Razor Sharp Edgemaing wheels Woodcraft sells.

[george wilson]

I have used paper layered micarta to make knife handles. It is bakelite impregnated paper or linen layers. Micarta is Westinghouse's trademark name. Originally used as an electrical insulator.

What I do not care for is not the MDF or the Micarta. It is the speed of the revolving wheels.

Your razor sharpness may be different from mine. I have been handed knives by a variety of guys from young to old,and told they were razor sharp. Some were like miniature sawtoothed edges. Others were smooth edged,but about as sharp as butter knives.

Pfiel carving tools come with buffed edges. Fairly sharp,but very rounded over. Not to my liking,though I like Pfiel tools just fine as far as the steel they are made from and their temper. No doubt the factory had to find some way of putting edges on many chisels each day. Or,they could just have gone like in the old days,and not put an edge on them at all.

[Tom McMahon]

Many years ago we used walrus wheels (actually cut from walrus hide), they were charged with various sized grits using hide glue for the course grits. They worked but seemed to constantly need to be recharged, it was a pain, maybe this is an improvement.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,

Thanks, you have answered my question well.


Your razor sharpness may be different from mine.

Makes me think of the recent post from someone who shaved hair after only honing on 80 grit paper. Sure, it can be done, but it was likely not a very comfortable shave.

So far my disk based power sharpening system seems to work pretty well for me along with hand sharpening. For curved edges and lathe tools I just have to do them some what free hand.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I´ll go with George on this.

At the very last in sharpening, stopping at the right moment is vital.

High speeds may be manageable in the first step, but slower methods offer predictable, repeatable results.

This is complicated when you have small pieces of steel as in most plane blades.

I still have the first decent iron I managed to overheat and ruin with "power strop".

[george wilson]

My wet wheel grinder has the felt wheel attachment for honing. I don't use it.

[Allen Jordan]

I should clarify that the resulting sharpness is more than adequate for pretty much everything but shaving hair. The edge produced looks like a mirror, but under a microscope you would see polished tiny serrations. Any knife I sharpen on the wheels can cut computer paper at any angle, and slice dangling newsprint like it's not there. I've compared the results to my 15k shapton pro stone on my beater chisels when shaving end grain pine/etc, and the paper wheels make a better cutting edge (though they do slightly round-over bevels and likely remove more material overall). The main benefits are speed and easy sharpening of curves.

[Steve Voigt]

Mike,

I've been reading your posts with some puzzlement over the last year or two. There have been posts about the many chisels, gauges, drill bits reamers, scrapers, etc. that you buy or are planning to buy. Then there were the cbn wheels, grinding attachments, a second (!) grinder; and now a gimmicky (in my opinion) power stropping system. I am waiting for the thread titled "do I need to build a second workshop to store my tools?" If I lived near you, I think I'd grab some friends and family and stage an intervention.

You probably don't want it, but my advice is this: You want to build Windsor chairs. All the great chairmakers I know of started out, as professionals, with very minimal toolkits. That's one of the real attractions of chairmaking. You can make chairs with about a dozen tools, give or take. It sounds like you need a lathe; a couple weeks scanning craigslist should get you one that's more than adequate, for a couple hundred bucks. It sounds like you already have all the other tools you need. Start making some chairs. If you run into a problem you can't solve, then maybe that's the time to get another tool. But you don't need a second grinder. You don't need the power strop. You don't need half the tools you have.All they are doing is getting between you and what you want to make.

My two cents and ymmv. Nothing personal, and I don't mean to give offense. Good luck.

[Pedro Reyes]

... What is silicon carbide? I know what silicon is and I know what carbide is, is this substance carbide in silicon? I have already said more than I understand though which is why I am making the post.

It was me who shaved hair straight from 80 grit, I was trying to make a point that mirror polish doesn't always equal sharp by proving the opposite to be true (unpolished cabe sharp). Albeit that edge would not last long because it was many tiny serrated sharp edges that would break.

I am with most here, stropping works better for me slowly and it can ruin an edge if not careful (even hand stropping).

I am no Chemist, but Silicon Carbide is SiC, one atom of Silicon and one of Carbon if I recall correctly, we machined parts out of that stuff, ~17K a pop, for semiconductor reactors. tehy looked like a very high tolerance flat pizza with some features, always wanted to get my hands on a broken one and try it as a lapping surface, a $17,000 lapping surface LOL.

Pedro

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve, I am sorry if you find my posts or tool collection offensive in some way. I do post information on a large percentage of the tools I buy or am thinking about buying as I often get valuable information from fellow posters. I thought that was an important part of the reason for these forums. As far as my tool collection goes I sincerely doubt that i have the volume of tools that many posters on SMC do. I know I have a much smaller tool collection than Peter Galbert, Curtis Buchanan, Mike Dunbar or Drew Langsner. Yes, Windsor chairs can be built with a small hand tool collection, although none of the professional chair builders I know elect to do that. All of the chair makers I mentioned above use more machines and hand tools than I have. So far I do not have a lathe, lathe tools, a steam box, a drying kiln, bending forms which all of the chair makers I know use. Then there are the axes, wedges, froes and splitting brake(s) used to split the wood which I am missing tools from. I just don't believe I am over tooled for someone wanting to make more than a chair or two.

I would prefer to be working some wood rather than posting, unfortunately I have been unable to use my hands as much as I would like. I have had continuing allergic reactions on my hands for the last 2 years which have left me unable to do the work I would like to be doing a large part of the time. After four courses of steroids and loosing a large part of the skin on my hands 5 or 6 times I am a little reluctant to jump back in with both hands until I know what is causing the problem. Every time I have gone back to using my hands full tilt I have had a break out that got me to the point I could not turn a door knob so this time I am taking it slow.

Not trying to raise controversy over the paper wheel system, I just wondered if they were more like a felt wheel or an MDF/hard wood surface. I thought someone who posts on SMC may have used the system. Apparently Allen has, thanks for the report Allen. I may try one out on my Delta grinder should I decide to buy a second grinder. At $30 per wheel it want break the bank if they don't work for me.

[Steve Voigt]

Mike, I didn't find anything about your post offensive, and I think you took my post the wrong way. I was just trying to point that things like the buffing kit or a second grinder could be a distraction rather than a help. Sorry to hear about your hands.

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve,

My point is, it is hard to judge another poster, their motives or their woodworking habits by the small amount of information contained in specific posts on this or any other forum. I try to leave personality assessments and judgements out of my posts and can only hope my fellow posters follow suit. Glad to hear you do not find my posts offensive, but it seems to me something rubbed you the wrong way and I am sorry if I had any part in causing it as I had no intention to do so.

I have not had a regular bench grinder for many years but recently bought one as many SMC posters seemed to find them useful. I am finding that the Delta grinder I recently bought has some limitations vs most other grinders including Delta grinders not too much older. The arbor on the grinder I bought is apparently significantly shorter than other Delta grinder shafts I based my buying decision on. The base of the grinder is about the same width as the grinder body, making it very hard/impossible to use some of the better tool rests under the wheel as they are designed to be used. Although I have two CBN wheels mounted on my grinder the arbor does not go all the way through the attaching nut on either wheel. Should I elect to buy a better slow speed grinder that I can mount the tool rests and CBN wheels I have on. I might want thinner friable...wheels to mount on the Delta.

[george wilson]

Mike,by how much does your shaft not make it through the nuts? It would be simple for me to put the wheels in my lathe and turn away some of the width around the hole,so the screws would go all the way on.

However,since the rotation of the grinder does tend to tighten the nuts,it may be o.k. if a reasonable amount of thread is engaged anyway,and the nuts are tightened.

Anyway,I am willing to modify your wheels for just shipping charges if you desire. I have done services for some other members here,mostly without charge,except for making round,tubular blades for Millers Falls spokeshaves,which took some materials purchase and a fair amount of work.

[Mike Holbrook]

George you are too kind and I appreciate the offer.

I think I have the issue with the arbor nuts resolved for now though. The D-Way CBN wheel was the larger issue to get fitting the shorter arbor. I think the issue is actually with the bushings Dave uses to adjust for different arbor sizes. At Dave at D-Ways suggestion, I worked the washers a little to get them a little flatter and thinner. The arbor is 1/8 -3/16 shy of getting through the bolt now on the D-Way wheel. All but the last thread or two are engaged so I think it is fine. The Woodturner's Wonders wheel was apparently redesigned recently. I think Ken may have reduced the width of his wheels around the arbor like George is suggesting. Ken's latest incarnation of his wheels, fit on the short arbors better, even with his double washer wobble adjuster.

I made this post thinking I might buy a real slow speed grinder with a long enough arbor to handle CBH wheels and just use the Delta grinder with the regular friable wheels it is designed to use.

[george wilson]

If you need help with machining,PM me then,Mike.

[Reinis Kanders]

I often wear Atlas 370 nitrile tough gloves when doing any work that is messy, but requires dexterity. Those gloves are tougher and breathe better than regular nitrile/latex gloves, but still are tactile enough for most tasks.

[Mike Holbrook]

Those look like interesting gloves Reinis. I just bought a few pair of assorted types of gloves to try. I'm going for allergy tests soon, if nylon does not turn out to be a problem I may give those a try.