Some newbie questions/guidance

[Zack Lancaster]

Preface: I am a weekend warrior doing minimal projects. My recent projects were a built-in desk (56" wide, 27" deep), a box for my gym to hold my adjustable dumbbells and storage below for misc items, and a couple of other small projects. They turned out OK, but I struggle with several things.


I used oak plywood for the desk and even with a 60 tooth diablo blade I had pretty bad tear out.
Longer cuts were a total pain. I own a table saw with only 13" of rip clearance and I couldn't really use it, so I had to use my Hitachi circular saw with a guide. The problem I had here was accuracy with my cuts. It was fine when I build the desk as a little play wasn't the end of the world. However, the box became a bear as a few slightly off cuts threw everything else into chaos.
Handling bigger pieces of wood was a chore - maybe I need more supports to help?
I don't have a lot of room to work in (about the space for 1 car)


I also installed a set of oak stairs and while a painful process, they turned out gorgeous.

My current cutting tools are:

10" Ryobi table saw with 13" rip clearance. Broken safety device (kick back guard broke off during move). Fence rail is totally inaccurate - I find myself measuring and re-measuring the front and back of fence all the time. I hate this thing, a lot. It was a $99.00 job from a big box store.
10" Porter Cable miter saw (I use the pee out of this thing, it feels like my only accurate tool.... oh, and the laser guide is totally broken so I eyeball where my cuts will be made). It's a very basic unit, no slide mechanism or anything. I find myself trying to cut larger pieces with this by turning wood over and cutting it twice just because I can at least somewhat count on the cuts being accurate.
Hitachi 7SB2 Circular Saw (This saw could probably be much better utilized if I could figure out how to accurately cut with it!)


My future project plans are: cedar deck box with seating, separators inside and drainage. Custom closet solution for shoes, sweaters, etc to replace old crappy wire shelving. A deadlift platform for my gym. A sofa table/chest. An ottoman. A new workbench (possible with some accommodations for the saw or my router?)

So to my questions:

Are there devices that could help my current tools be better and help me make accurate cuts?
Should I replace my table saw? If so, I am stuck with Lowe's, Home Depot, Menards, ACE Hardware near me. Craigslist has been pretty much a bust for me. I am north of Minneapolis, MN about 45 minutes and have been looking for a few weeks. All I can seem to find that look good are gigantic cabinet saws and I just don't think I have the room for something of their size.

[cody michael]

I don't have one but alot of people really like tracksaw's there a few models ranging in price from a couple 100 to 1000+ but I think one would work great for you, also a decent sliding chopsaw might increase your capacity.

[John Donhowe]

I appreciate your dilemma. I used to have a bigger Ryobi table saw (BT3100), and even with that I always got the willies when cutting large pieces of plywood. It just felt too tippy, because of its light weight (otherwise great, for portability) and table size (otherwise great for space saving). The trouble is, to cut large sheet goods with a table saw, you need a hefty (big and heavy) saw. Extra supports help to some extent with a smaller saw, but I have difficulty balancing a sheet between supports, while still trying to concentrate on getting an accurate cut. These lightweight job-site saws are adequate for carpentry work, but I think it's asking a lot of them to make accurate, precise and clean cuts, esp. with large pieces.

As with Cody, I don't have any first hand experience with track saws. Personally, I'd put the money for one toward getting a better table saw. If your budget (both $ and floor space) allow, I'd recommend looking at the Craftsman 22116 hybrid table saw. I got one a few months ago through Sears outlet, and don't miss my Ryobi one bit. It's quieter, much more accurate, and solid, to say the least, and I think a lot of saw for the money. I haven't done any cuts with full sheets yet, but it's sturdy enough that I have no hesitancy about using it for that. There's one listed through searsoutlet.com in Coon Rapids for $769, which looks to be on the high side for their outlet listings. It might be new in box, and they just want to get out the door. If it's a floor model, esp. if it's missing a few parts, you might be able to bargain with them. Just a thought. Good luck.

[John TenEyck]

With your limited space I would get a tracksaw and a good router combo kit. For really cheap you can use your current circular saw against a good straightedge and get very nice cuts, too, it will just take a little longer. I would not try to cut large pieces of plywood on your current TS unless you set it in some sort of cabinet that gives you adequate support. Doing that, however, will just about consume your entire 1 car footprint; hence, my recommendation to go with a tracksaw instead. You can do an amazing amount of work with a router, too, from cutting and trimming large panels, to joinery, to edge profiling. I built a fair amount of stuff with not much more than a Sears CI TS, router, and a few hand tools. Anyway, the tracksaw will take care of panels and wider rip cuts, while your current TS can handle the narrower rip cuts. The fence on your TS may be frustrating but as long as it locks down tight and doesn't move it should be OK. I had to measure front and back on the fence of my Sears TS and did so for 20+ years until I finally upgraded.

John

[Judson Green]

This might help

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearch=www.sawmillcreek.org&q=make+a+track+for+a+circular+saw&submit.x=351&submit.y=55&gws_rd=ssl

[scott spencer]

A decent table saw is the heart and soul of most woodworking shops. A full size saw with a belt drive induction motor is generally desirable for woodworking, unless you have to haul from location to location. They really don't take up a ton more room, or cost a lot more than a decent portable. Lowes offers a pretty good entry level cast iron saw for ~ $550 (36-725)....discounts can bring that down a bit. Grizzly will ship a very good hybrid saw to your house for $625 + s/h ($724 delivered)....G0771.

The ABCs of Table Saws (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/32154)

[Robert Engel]

With the limited space have you considered going the hand tool route?
I think your best bet is to get rid of the TS and get something better/bigger.
You can put it on a mobile base.
Scott makes good suggestions if you can swing it.

[Jim Matthews]

http://schoolofwood.com/

Take an intro course.
You'll meet lots of people that can help you.

Before you buy another tool, get a little instruction.
The cost of the class could easily save you thousands
on tools that won't suit you and your shop space.

[Pat Barry]

If I were starting today I would get the best tracksaw I could afford. Now, its no substitue for a good table saw but it will help you immensely with the plywood projects. With regard to tearout, obviously a very sharp blade. Sometimes you can make a cut line (on the good side of the cut exit) with a razor knife but I find it difficult to get that line exactly where its needed. Best approach I have found is to have a sacrificial backer on the blade exit side (bottom for table saw work). This is one place a zero clearance insert or cross-cut sled really can help but thats for relatively small panel sizes (< 24 inches). I think you could make a cross-cut sled for your table saw and do a lot of good work. I have mine setup on the saw nearly 90% of the time.

[Robert Engel]

I see several posts re: track saws.

My advice is give it careful thought because with the price of some of them, you're very close to a TS purchase.

You can knock down plywood into manageable pieces perfectly well with a circ saw and a straight edge and do the final dimensioning on the TS.

[Zack Lancaster]

I appreciate all of the feedback! I decided to do 4 things. 1.) Get better educated on woodworking by taking some courses/watching more youtube. 2.) As a fun project, create a couple of 'plywood' tracksaws (2', 4', 8') 3.) Replace my crappy miter saw with a better/sliding model. 4.) Adjust my current table saw and make a sled as another cool project.

Minimal financial investment and I think vast improvements overall. I think #1 is probably going to help me 99% more than 2/3/4 together. ;) Thank you all so much! You guys are all super helpful, what a great community!

[Jim Dwight]

Nothing wrong with making what I call "shoot boards" to guide a circular saw. I used them for decades and they help. You may also find that the blade of your Hitachi is not parallel with the edge of the base. That will make guides challenging. You may be able to tap it into alignment. A misalignment could help to explain your chip out.

I have a table saw that used to have 60 inch rip capacity. I shortened it to about 24 inches after getting a DeWalt tracksaw. It and the Makita are kind of middle of the road track saws. With a couple tracks you are looking about $600 cost. They will cut very precisely with near zero chipout. There is also the Cadillac (or Mercedes) of tracksaws, the Festool at around $1200. And there is the Grizzly at maybe $300 with two tracks. Quite a range. Reviews on the Grizzly are more mixed. It probably needs some tweaks to be comparable including a new blade. And even with tweaks you are giving up at least a little functionality. But the advantage of any track saw is that if you set the track in the right place you get a straight cut. You cannot wander away from the guide (as you can with home made guides). The base of the saw has a dado in it that fits over a rib of the track.

For your learning experience please google Ron Paulk. He has good practical, not ultra expensive, ideas on workbenches for tracksaws. He uses a Festool but I think the design is applicable to other makes.

Tracksaws are at least as accurate as tablesaws, safer, and take up a lot less space. With a table saw, you need twice the dimension you need to rip. With the tracksaw, you need that dimension of space available (8 feet to rip a sheet with a track saw and 16 feet with a table saw). That's a big difference. Opportunity to cut yourself much less too. For your projects, I think it fits very nicely.

[Gary Yoder]

I really appreciate the attitude to learn and not just start throwing money around. Too many newbies love buying tools and and new gadgets and don't just enjoy working with wood. I bought a $450 used table saw a few years back to get started, and made that the center of my woodworking - using jigs and so forth. I don't regret it at all.

Good luck and enjoy! Post pictures of your projects as you go.;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I appreciate all of the feedback! I decided to do 4 things. 1.) Get better educated on woodworking by taking some courses/watching more youtube. 2.) As a fun project, create a couple of 'plywood' tracksaws (2', 4', 8') 3.) Replace my crappy miter saw with a better/sliding model. 4.) Adjust my current table saw and make a sled as another cool project.

Minimal financial investment and I think vast improvements overall. I think #1 is probably going to help me 99% more than 2/3/4 together. ;) Thank you all so much! You guys are all super helpful, what a great community!

Zack - Hey - welcome.

Always nice to hear from new guys. Especially ones that have already started to mistake their way up the learning curve. Everyone here has been in that exact same spot. Harold and I still are. He has an excuse - he's a Yankees fan, so he has already peaked. :D Me - I got no excuse - just an underachiever.

Care to tell us where you are located? Not required by any means....just nice to know.

Also - you an AL fan or an NL [whatever the heck that is] fan? :p

Anyway - glad to have you...............



First - For someone who is making tables/desks out of ply, my advice is you don't need a TS. I used to think different. I was wrong. Make your own track saw

First get a better circ saw. See if you can lay your hands on a reasonably-priced Delta 314 - perfect for this application. $100 - $125 should do it for one in good shape. Out of manufacture for a while, but often show up on the auction site. Or - some other new, good, circ saw - I have no advice - not my cup of sawdust.

Then - Go to McMaster Carr or Grainger, look for aluminum bar stock - something like 3/8" x 3". Reasonable $$.

Use 1/8" - 3/16" masonite as a base. You need a set of taps [or, one anyway]. Drill/countersink up through the masonite, through the alum, tap the treads - I used 1/4" x 1/2". You can run countersink machine bolts up thru the masonite into the alum, with a dot of blue loctite to keep them there.

Very reliable, plenty accurate, very cheap.

Second - A good miter saw will make a big difference also. I am not a fan of the sliding saws, simply because I never needed that capacity, and the less expensive ones have a lot of "wobble" in the carriage, from my experience [may be wrong on this though, with newer products]. Regardless, build a solid table with an infeed and outfeed fence to let you align the work dead-nuts. Maybe consider one of these from Kreg. I have used it - works good. Not "over the top" in terms of solid, but as long as you pay attention, and recalibrate often, it does a solid job: https://www.kregtool.com/store/c47/saw-accessories/p107/precision-trak-stop-kit/

Third - TS sled is a smart move. Take the crappy fence out of the equation.

Fourth - -TS outfeed support. Get something like one fo these. A hundred people make them

http://www.rockler.com/workshop-accessories/roller-and-ball-bearing-stands?roller_stands_type=2771

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_garage-workshop-supplies+roller-supports

Last - I dunno squat about Diablo blades. Sorry. But, from what little bit I do know, I always use an 80t blade for cutting panels. My Forrest 80t does an immaculate job. But - full disclosure - I am a big Forrest fan. Others here have competing brands they swear by, and I'm sure they know what they are talking about.

Remember - you want the "good side" to be hit on the downward curve by the blade, so there is no tearout on the good side. That means - TS: Good side up. Circ saw: Good side down.

You can also try this trick: Run some Famous Blue Tape down the line of cut, and do your layout line on top of that. Helps keep tearout to a minimum.


Don't be a stranger,

Regards

Kent

[Prashun Patel]

Your plan is sound. I would not yet buy a new tablesaw or a new track saw system until you figure out which type of woodworker you are. your existing tools with improved jigs will allow you to make passable furniture until the upgrade path right for you becomes apparent.

just read up on safety so you understand kickback well.

if your tablesaw guard is so broken that you cannot even use the splitter then I revise my suggestion and vote it's not safe enough to use and you should buy a new tablesaw or only use the circular saw

[scott spencer]

I appreciate all of the feedback! I decided to do 4 things. 1.) Get better educated on woodworking by taking some courses/watching more youtube. 2.) As a fun project, create a couple of 'plywood' tracksaws (2', 4', 8') 3.) Replace my crappy miter saw with a better/sliding model. 4.) Adjust my current table saw and make a sled as another cool project.

Minimal financial investment and I think vast improvements overall. I think #1 is probably going to help me 99% more than 2/3/4 together. ;) Thank you all so much! You guys are all super helpful, what a great community!

I like the suggestion to hold your purchases until the path you want to take is a bit more clear. I wouldn't even replace the miter saw just yet....everyone is different so YMMV, but many of us hardly use our miter saws.....a good TS is more accurate on all but really long pieces. Best of luck to you....and go easy on yourself....mistakes are par for the course! (Be safe first, good later)

[Jim Matthews]

Too many newbies love buying tools and and new gadgets and don't just enjoy working with wood.

Guilty, as charged.
Two courses of instruction put a stop to shopping,
and got my shop 'a hopping'.

[Pat Barry]

Use 1/8" - 3/16" masonite as a base. You need a set of taps [or, one anyway]. Drill/countersink up through the masonite, through the alum, tap the treads - I used 1/4" x 1/2". You can run countersink machine bolts up thru the masonite into the alum, with a dot of blue loctite to keep them there.

I like this - it reminds me of what I have, used to use, and forgot about, except I didn't use the aluminum for the guide, just a straight edge from a piece of plywood. Seeing you post makes me want to go back and build a better one. I'm still to cheap to spend the money new aluminum (but I do agree thats a great straightedge)

[Zack Lancaster]

Well as luck would have it a friend sent me a link to a table saw on Craigslist that looks pretty amazing. Seeing as mine is legit broken ( btw I'm putting a picture up today of the blade insert, I can't even make a zero clearance insert for it!). I was absolutely going to wait, but this looks awfully nice....

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/5012383672.html

[Zack Lancaster]

I am located in Minnesota, AL all the way, however my grandfather was a devout player in the NL and is likely spinning in his grave (assuming ghosts know how to use the internet.. haha). Also a hockey fan, go Wild! (I am sure they will be routed and swept going 0-4 here soon.) *all wood working puns intended*

Thanks for the tips, I think I will likely need to invest a bit of cash. I am going to keep my current circular saw for now just because, compared to my other saws, it is decent. My table saw is a dangerous beast and I do think I should look into getting something better. I have found a couple reasonably priced that should fit my current and near future needs. My miter saw works pretty well, so I could keep that for now as well.



Zack - Hey - welcome.

Always nice to hear from new guys. Especially ones that have already started to mistake their way up the learning curve. Everyone here has been in that exact same spot. Harold and I still are. He has an excuse - he's a Yankees fan, so he has already peaked. :D Me - I got no excuse - just an underachiever.

Care to tell us where you are located? Not required by any means....just nice to know.

Also - you an AL fan or an NL [whatever the heck that is] fan? :p

Anyway - glad to have you...............



First - For someone who is making tables/desks out of ply, my advice is you don't need a TS. I used to think different. I was wrong. Make your own track saw

First get a better circ saw. See if you can lay your hands on a reasonably-priced Delta 314 - perfect for this application. $100 - $125 should do it for one in good shape. Out of manufacture for a while, but often show up on the auction site. Or - some other new, good, circ saw - I have no advice - not my cup of sawdust.

Then - Go to McMaster Carr or Grainger, look for aluminum bar stock - something like 3/8" x 3". Reasonable $$.

Use 1/8" - 3/16" masonite as a base. You need a set of taps [or, one anyway]. Drill/countersink up through the masonite, through the alum, tap the treads - I used 1/4" x 1/2". You can run countersink machine bolts up thru the masonite into the alum, with a dot of blue loctite to keep them there.

Very reliable, plenty accurate, very cheap.

Second - A good miter saw will make a big difference also. I am not a fan of the sliding saws, simply because I never needed that capacity, and the less expensive ones have a lot of "wobble" in the carriage, from my experience [may be wrong on this though, with newer products]. Regardless, build a solid table with an infeed and outfeed fence to let you align the work dead-nuts. Maybe consider one of these from Kreg. I have used it - works good. Not "over the top" in terms of solid, but as long as you pay attention, and recalibrate often, it does a solid job: https://www.kregtool.com/store/c47/saw-accessories/p107/precision-trak-stop-kit/

Third - TS sled is a smart move. Take the crappy fence out of the equation.

Fourth - -TS outfeed support. Get something like one fo these. A hundred people make them

http://www.rockler.com/workshop-accessories/roller-and-ball-bearing-stands?roller_stands_type=2771

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_garage-workshop-supplies+roller-supports

Last - I dunno squat about Diablo blades. Sorry. But, from what little bit I do know, I always use an 80t blade for cutting panels. My Forrest 80t does an immaculate job. But - full disclosure - I am a big Forrest fan. Others here have competing brands they swear by, and I'm sure they know what they are talking about.

Remember - you want the "good side" to be hit on the downward curve by the blade, so there is no tearout on the good side. That means - TS: Good side up. Circ saw: Good side down.

You can also try this trick: Run some Famous Blue Tape down the line of cut, and do your layout line on top of that. Helps keep tearout to a minimum.


Don't be a stranger,

Regards

Kent

[Paul Wunder]

Grizzly makes a very nice track saw that will vastly improve your cuts and the saw can be used without the track as a plunge circular saw. A complete kit (saw, 50" track and accessories) will cost about $250. I am pleased with mine, and if you check the Creek and other place it has been well received. I did upgrade to a Freud blade in the size made for the saw. There are other brands of this type saw but they are quite a bit more money. For many, the Festool is the gold standard but they are in the $700+ range. I do own several Festool tools, but not the track saw.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Track-Saw/T10687