Ductwork installation underway

[John Donofrio]

It has begun and some nice progress was made over the weekend. The two key Oneida fittings I was waiting on showed up last Wednesday and I now understand why they cost more. They are of excellent quality.

With most of the parts I'll need in hand I was able to dedicate most of Saturday and part of Sunday to the shop. So far I'm really pleased with the progress. Speaking of hand, I think every digit has at least one cut or nick. Yes, I know, wear gloves when working with sheet metal. I did (some) but you know how it goes... just need this little bit done, ouch, go get another band aid then put on the gloves. Repeat.

On the blastgates I implemented Bill's magnet (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?229309-Metal-Blast-Gate-Mod&p=2397100#post2397100) in the hole idea and also used some CA gel to keep the magnet flush to the downstream side. Works really well, thanks Bill.

Going one step further, I noticed when the gate is fully closed the two opposing detents tended to center the gate which seems to me it would keep it from sealing, or make the seal worse than it had to be. To get around this I filed a small round notch where the downstream detent hits the body. This allows it to slide a little farther which in turn causes the upstream detent to force the gate flush to the body. Hopefully the pics make this a little clearer.

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I also experimented on one blastgate using this same principle to get the gate to open farther. These non-self cleaning gates don't open fully; there's about 3/8" of the gate still exposed in the flow. The experiment was to file opposing notches to allow the detents to disappear into the body thus allowing the gate to open more. It works but I was getting concerned of having to file too much creating a hole in the body. The blastgate I did this on does open a bit more but I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Referencing Dan's thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226176-Idea-for-InexpensiveLlong-Radius-Elbows&p=2360411#post2360411) I learned using two 45's to make a long radius 90 is fun, NOT! Anyway, what I didn't find anywhere was a quick way to get to 45. After experimenting on one the magic number appears to be roughly 3" between seams for a 6", four gored adjustable elbow. Unless you want an offset in the turn, always make sure the seams line up.

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Here's the progress after this weekend. Not sure how much time I'll have between now and next week to get some more installed. On top of that I'm out of town part of next week and into the following week but I'll follow up when there is some more noticeable progress.

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I am really looking forward to having real dust collection.

[John Donofrio]

Went out to get some more parts at lunch and am going to try and complete the tablesaw connection over the weekend. A 6x5x4 wye is going to be used with 5" going the cabinet and the 4" available for future tabletop collection. My question is; should I put a 4" blast gate on the wye to balance flow or will it need to be the other way around? Or possibly no blastgate needed? All i have right now are 6" gates. Obviously there will be one for the tablesaw branch as a whole. Any input would be appreciated.

Also, since I know everyone has been dying for an update (due to all the responses :)) here's an updated pic of the work done during the evening hours after work. Got more done than I thought I would.

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The drop near the air filter is to the tablesaw, jointer/planer. As stated above the tablesaw will get 5" to the cabinet to start and eventually 4" (maybe reduce to three) overtop. The other 6" branch from this drop will split to 4"x4", one each to the 6" jointer and one available for the lunchbox planer. Both will always be open when this 6" branch is open. Not sure yet how 4" will work on the later two but I know a 2 1/2" shopvac connection worked pretty good on both. We'll see. If it turns out to be not good, some early modification will be in order.

The nearest drop is to the bandsaw and will split to two 4" also. One for the lower existing connection and the other to some type of shroud under the table, to be designed.

The overhead run that is temporarily capped will split to two floor sweeps in the bench area on the other side of the shop.

[Patrick Harper]

Nice work. Go Steelers!

[John Donofrio]

Nice work. Go Steelers!

Thanks Patrick but I have to wonder... how did you know I was a Steeler fan? :D

[James Gunning]

Really nice looking shop!

[Paul McGaha]

And the clock.

PHM

[John Donofrio]

Thanks guys, really appreciate it.

Now at the point of deciding if I wait to get a 4" or 5" (or both) blastgate. Anyone have any advice to the question in post #2?

Another quick question. Think this specially designed pipe support is a good idea?? :eek:

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Kidding of course.

[Jim Andrew]

Do you already have a 4" hose on your guard of your tablesaw? My new Hammer saw has only 2" on the blade guard, but it does pretty well.

[John Donofrio]

Do you already have a 4" hose on your guard of your tablesaw? My new Hammer saw has only 2" on the blade guard, but it does pretty well.

Jim, I don't have anything yet for the top. The 4" branch is just in preparation for top collection. I can reduce, can't go the other way.

[John Donofrio]

The first thing on the connection list was the table saw which required a port modification. Fortunately the Grizzly TS has a removable panel that made it really easy to install the 5" takeoff. The initial plan was to use a bellmouth fitting as recommended by many but I had some trouble finding one so the idea was abandoned. My cheap anemometer shows a CFM reading well over what I was looking for (it reads ~700+) at the opening inside the cabinet. I'm sure this drops a bit due to restrictions inside the cabinet but I can tell you there is almost NO dust left inside there. Only a tiny, I mean tiny amount directly under the port.

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The next logical order of business was to get the jointer/planer connections completed. As mentioned in a previous post, a 4"x4" split would connect each using their existing 4" ports. Initially I wasn't sure how well this would work but no longer. Each works really well with only a few chips escaping from the top of the jointer and a few from the feed side of the planer, very few. I'm not sure that's avoidable regardless of how much airflow there is. Very happy here too.

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Now onto the bandsaw. A single 6" drop is dedicated here that splits into two 4" as well, one for the factory connection and one for a shroud underneath the table. The Rikon bandsaw provides a 4" port but it is seriously restricted by a plate inside to keep one from sticking a hand or something inside the port while the machine is running. I understand the concern but it had to go. Not wanting to remove the lower wheel I drilled a series of radial holes from the outside through the port which then allowed a piece of the offending plate to be removed. This greatly improved the airflow so now the single 4" connection does an excellent job of collecting from inside the lower part of the saw. I've yet to design and build a shroud for under the table, which is what the branch is for.

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The remainder that's complete at this point are the floor sweeps in the bench area on the opposite side of the shop. There's also one on the collector side. I gotta say to anyone not interested in being gouged for the 'official' floor sweeps, you really should consider using standard HVAC register boots kept about 2" above the floor. On this install anything that gets within about 6" to 12" is gone in an instant, except small heavier stuff such as a 3/8" nut. Tried it and the nut stayed safely put on the floor. A smaller piece would probably be gone but I'm not too concerned since it's a cyclone and no large debris passes through the impeller. Being curious, I tossed across the floor bowling style a small piece of wood about 3/4"x1"x1". Gone!

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What's left to do is the wall where the drill press and sander reside and the wall the main to the collector runs on. The later wall will eventually have a chop saw station and a new router cabinet. The plans for the router cabinet may need to move up the priority list since the drop at the bandsaw interferes with the outfeed of the current router table. I didn't realize this when planning but decided to leave it as is. Routing smaller pieces up to about 24" long is still possible but anything longer and the portable bench it's a part of will have to be temporarily rotated/moved. Fortunately that option exists which is primarily why I chose to leave the drop there, where it's intended to be long term. Oh, and a couple vertical supports are needed so the outfeed support rollers can be reclaimed.

[Ole Anderson]

John, that is looking sweet!!!

[Steve Kinnaird]

Following along!
You are doing a great job on this.
Thanks for sharing.

[John Donofrio]

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Works pretty well. The CFM readings at the end of the hoses show about 100-110 for all three 2 1/2" connections. The 4" is over 600 which seems high for a 4" but that's what it read. Putting a plastic 4" blast gate there to throttle it down a bit and give some more flow to the others may be better.

Using a 1/4" brad point bit and a 2" forstner bit for some real world testing revealed good collection as very few chips escaped. I can live with it the way it is but it might be able to do better with the blast gate mentioned above.

The sander works even better. Nothing, as far as I could tell, escaped. I could very easily see the dust being sucked away by the 4" and everything else was captured by the built in collection from the 2 1/2" on the back.

As expected, there is an enormous amount of turbulence inside the box. When a visible piece of scrap is allowed to be sucked up, especially from the left most port, it bounces up and down a few times until finding it's way to the exit which makes me wonder... would placing a divider that slopes from the lower left to the upper right help increase air flow? I'm not sure. Anyone more knowledgeable have any thoughts here if this would increase the CFM by making the flow more stable?


In other news, the vertical supports have also been completed. They're not pretty but they do the job of taking some of the load off the gored elbows above and stabilizing the vertical pipe. Bottom line is they work.

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Thanks for watching.

[Steve Kinnaird]

Is the 4" blast gate open when you are checking the 2 1/2" connections?
CFM should be much higher that 100 to 110.
You mentioned throttling back the 4" line to add suction to the 2 1/2" line. The 4" line should be closed if you are not using it.

Just my 2 cents :)

[Ole Anderson]

600 cfm is believable for a 4" hose. I get 570 cfm at the end of a 6 foot long 4" slinky with a 2hp SDG. And I would definitely close off the 4" with a blast gate when not in use.

As for the box, I would add fillets to the long corners to mimic the diameter of the 6" outgoing pipe on at least the top corners and the bottom also if possible. A square edged inlet is very prone to turbulence and inlet losses.

[John Donofrio]

This started out as a prototype of sorts but as it progressed became a keeper. And it works really well. At first there was some doubt as to whether the magnets, which are epoxied in place, would be able to hold this thing in place but it's really solid, doesn't move and definitely collects the dust.

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The row of four magnets in the first pic hold onto one of the ribs that stiffen the table. The second pic shows the magnets that attach to the plate where the blade enters the bottom of the saw.

A couple installed pics ('cause we all like pics)

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In the real world test the only sawdust I found was what was left on the table from what stuck to the wood after it passed by the blade and what jumped off the blade when the cut was complete. I'll call this one the showoff pic :)

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[Steve Kinnaird]

Is that a Grizzly band saw?
I am looking at the 17" and it has 2 - 4" dust ports.

Great creativity!!!!

[John Donofrio]

Is that a Grizzly band saw?
I am looking at the 17" and it has 2 - 4" dust ports.

Steve, it's a Rikon 14" Deluxe. Model 10-325 if I remember correctly.

[Steve Kinnaird]

Steve, it's a Rikon 14" Deluxe. Model 10-325 if I remember correctly.

OK, I was looking at the colors.

[John Donofrio]

Sorry to revive this aging thread, just thought it made sense to keep it all together.

Several weeks ago it began with some cardboard prototypes and experimentation. After a design was settled upon that I thought might work the best without spending a fortune on materials and parts, this is what I came up with.

Started with an existing table I made back when the shop was built to have something to put tools on. Added some support underneath and cut a hole.

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Got a 6" 90* HVAC boot from the local Borg and mounted it to a plate underneath, closing the previously made hole. Then added some sloping sides to help airflow a bit.

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The rest was built based off the cardboard mock-ups. I ended up with a system that allows the saw be used in all it's possible configurations. The side to the left is hinged to allow it to stay tight when it can and be swung out of the way when it can't. The thing on top was kinda an afterthought. Realizing that 90% of the cuts made here are vertical rough cuts at 90* and 9 of the other 10% are vertical at 45* either way, I liked the idea of covering the large hole left by the cutout to allow the saw to swing while tilted. Maybe worth it, maybe not.

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Here's the (near) completed system. I say near completed 'cause the saw still needs secured to the table and the in/out feed needs built but at least there is now dust collection at the chop saw!

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How does it work...!?! About as well as I was hoping for and as well as I think is possible with this tool. My Dylos meter just arrived Monday so I haven't had a lot of time to mess with it but best I can tell it is capturing most if not all of the fines. There are still some chips that escape the sides from bouncing off the little deflector at the back of the blade (it's supposed to deflect them into the exhaust port) but I can feel a reasonably strong draft heading into the capture area that I believe is strong enough to capture the real fines we are all after. Once again some time with the Dylos should tell the tale.

Any comments or suggestions for improvements? One I'm considering is to add some 45* down slopes on the interior sides to deflect more into the suction. Just a thought at this point.

Thanks for looking.

[Jim Dwight]

Looks great! I can get most of the debris from my router table using a shop vacuum on a 2.5 inch port on the fence. It would also be good to suck from below but, if you do, I would try and take the air above the router motor. The problem with sucking out of the bottom of the router compartment is you are fighting the fan on the router and thus decreasing the cooling. If you pull from below the bit but above the motor, you help the fan cool the motor. If you pull from below and above the bit, you should get nearly everything.

If your CMS is anything like mine, you will need to pull on the blade guard plus have a setup behind it to get what doesn't go out that location. You kind of have to build a horizontal tent around the saw and then pull a lot of air. You seem to have a setup that can do it.

Last point, remember that it is pretty easy to make your own gates out of scraps of plywood. And they self clean.

[Morey St. Denis]

"Just a thought at this point"... Had you given any prior consideration to potentially upgrading your Hitachi miter chopsaw to a sliding compound miter saw? Models such as their C10FSH and later versions, (along with many other brands) typically use a cast metal inboard blade guard housing that incorporates at least a 2" dust collection outlet toward the rear. A passive discharge cloth filter bag is provided, but if ported directly to a flexible vacuum hose, it's quite effective at removing a majority of dust and small shavings right at the point of generation from off of the saw kerf.

As well as dramatically increased capacity with standard miter blade diameters, such as 10", upgrading to a slider also typically brings optional daylight visible laser marking of the saw cut line. Your under-table fall through dust collection is certainly desirable and clever to boot, but most sliders I am familiar with would render mostly unnecessary that rear collection hood contraption. Just saying...

[John Donofrio]

Looks great! I can get most of the debris from my router table using a shop vacuum on a 2.5 inch port on the fence. It would also be good to suck from below but, if you do, I would try and take the air above the router motor. The problem with sucking out of the bottom of the router compartment is you are fighting the fan on the router and thus decreasing the cooling. If you pull from below the bit but above the motor, you help the fan cool the motor. If you pull from below and above the bit, you should get nearly everything.

If your CMS is anything like mine, you will need to pull on the blade guard plus have a setup behind it to get what doesn't go out that location. You kind of have to build a horizontal tent around the saw and then pull a lot of air. You seem to have a setup that can do it.

Last point, remember that it is pretty easy to make your own gates out of scraps of plywood. And they self clean.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the router info. A new router cabinet (to the left of the CMS) is on the radar but probably going to be a while since I'm about tired of working on shop projects. There's already a working router setup in the shop so I can get by if the need arises.

Thought about making my own gates but... I'm happy with the metal ones and they aren't real expensive.

[John Donofrio]

"Just a thought at this point"... Had you given any prior consideration to potentially upgrading your Hitachi miter chopsaw to a sliding compound miter saw? Models such as their C10FSH and later versions, (along with many other brands) typically use a cast metal inboard blade guard housing that incorporates at least a 2" dust collection outlet toward the rear. A passive discharge cloth filter bag is provided, but if ported directly to a flexible vacuum hose, it's quite effective at removing a majority of dust and small shavings right at the point of generation from off of the saw kerf.

As well as dramatically increased capacity with standard miter blade diameters, such as 10", upgrading to a slider also typically brings optional daylight visible laser marking of the saw cut line. Your under-table fall through dust collection is certainly desirable and clever to boot, but most sliders I am familiar with would render mostly unnecessary that rear collection hood contraption. Just saying...

Hi Morey,

I did think about upgrading this CMS but for what I use it for it really does work fine. When it dies I'll reconsider a slider. Right now I don't want a slider due to the added distance from the wall required. Currently the area between the table saw the the CMS is where I break down full size sheet goods and there's not a lot of room to spare. Part of the price to pay for a small shop I suppose but it is what it is.

[Patrick Harper]

Thanks Patrick but I have to wonder... how did you know I was a Steeler fan? :D


Clock on the wall ;)