Help needed with notching stair stringers.

[Greg Ladd]

Hello everyone,

For all the Creekers who have experience cutting stair stringers...

I need to cut new stringers for my basement stairs to allow better access for tools to the basement shop. The set of stairs that currently in place only allows about 2 feet at the bottom to make a turn...not easy with a cabinet saw! I want to increase this distance to around 3 feet.

The total rise is 93.5" and I would like the total run to the end of the bottom tread nosing to be 112 3/4". I would like a rise of around 7 5/8" from step to step and a run of 10 1/4" for each tread.

Is this reasonable and a comfortable step? How would I cut these stringers?
Also, since this is going inot a basement I want to place the stringer on a 2x4 pressure treated plate. How do I compensate for this thickness?

Sorry if this seems too simple but I am having trouble visuallizing how to do this and have never done it before. I do have a framing square and a set of brass stair gauges to put onto the square to help me.

Thanks in advance,
Greg

[Tim Burke]

Greg,

I just finished rebuilding my basement stairs since I am doing a remodel.

The rise and run that you are considering seems good to me. Mine had to be a 7-7/8" rise and a 10" run due to existing conditions. Feels perfectly fine.

This is my 2nd set of stairs that I have built for basement remodels. Each time I sketched out the dimensions on paper to help me visualize things.

To compensate for the thickness of the treated plate, simply subtract 1-1/2" from the bottom of the last step. Maybe you already know this, but you have to subtract the height of the tread from the last step also so that you end up at the correct rise. So while the height of your rises is 7-5/8", the final step will be 4-5/8", assuming that you are using 1-1/2" treads and a 1-1/2" treated plate.

To cut stringers, you lay them out using the framing square like in this link http://www.jself.com/stair/straight/Stringer.htm. In that link, they show the top stair being even with the floor, which is not typical for basement stairs. In fact, I don't even like it for decks and did not do it like that on the decks I have built. I like the first step from the floor at the top to be 1 rise down. To attach your stringer to the joist header, you will need to securely extend the header down to meet the end of your stringers. How you do this depends on how your joist header is built and available clearance. But make sure that it is securely attached, especially if your stringers aren't attached to other wall studs (like in a finished stairwell).

Tim

[Kevin Post]

The main guides I've been told to follow are:


All steps should be the same. Variance in the tread length or riser height creates a dangerous stair because your brain sort of puts your body on auto-pilot when navigating stairs.
Rise should not exceed 8".
Treads should be at least 10".


Based on the info you've provided and the last message from Tim, I think you'll be in good shape.

[Richard Wolf]

Tim gave you some good advice and a good link. Let me ask you a few questions first and maybe I can help you some more.
The staircase run and rise that you are planning to use is a very comfortable situation and not very steep by any standards. How can that staircase fit in the exsisting space when I sure your present staircase is steeper than that?
What type of staircase where you planning on building, open treads, boxed treads, or closed on one side and open on the other?
Your best solution for the bottom of the stairs is to build a platfom at the bottom of the stairs the same height as one riser, this will in essence give you an L shaped stairs with extra room to turn and reduce the staircase by one riser. I hope you understand what I mean.

Stairs in most homes in the New York area are built to maximun specs, which means a rise of 8" and a run of 9". The tread over hangs the riser by 1 1/4" which means the actual tread measures 10 1/4 but the run is only 9".
Keep asking me questions if you don't understand, I know it is difficult to understand some of this without pictures, but I will help you all I can.

Richard

[Dave Falkenstein]

Hi - I think this site will help you lay out the rise and run for your stairs:

http://www.woodcraft.com/articles.aspx?articleid=311

With the dimensions you have provided, you will need 11 treads at 10-1/4 each to attain a total run of 112-3/4. Do not use a tread at the top landing, ie the first step is one rise below the top landing. You will have a total rise of 112-3/4 divided by 12 rises (one more rise than treads) resulting in a rise of a little more than 7-3/4 for each step, or 93-1/2 divided by 12 rises. That would be an acceptable rise. To lay out the stringers, follow the instructions in the site I attached above. Use a framing square, and use 2X12 Douglas Fir for the stringers. To adjust for the 2X material at the bottom landing, simply subtract 1-1/2 inches from the bottom rise.

[Steve Clardy]

Be sure and put the bow UP when cutting stringers.

[Greg Ladd]

Thank you everybody for the tips. Unfortunately, I have been very busy today and have not been able to get back to the forum.

Now I am fighting with 2 teenagers who fell they have to get on the computer. I will print out your responses so I have time to think about the ideas and questions you have all asked.

I'll be back later on tonight or early tomorrow morning. Thanks again.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

The kids fogot they needed the computer so I will take my turn now...

Tim,

Thank you for the link. I assume that you mean that the final height of the bottom tread will be the same as all of the others but the vertical cut on the front of the stringer will be 4 5/8". Is that correct?

I was going to use joist hangers to mount the ends of the stringers to the header at the top.

Kevin,

Thank you for the verification that my dimensions should work well. I appreciate the confirmation.

Richard,

I was hoping you would respond to this question. I have admired your stairway work. It is amazing.

The current stairs are actually considerable flatter than what I want to build. This stairway was originally in a diffierent location in the basement but was moved to its' current location after the original house was destroyed in a fire. After we redesigned the floor plan we moved the entire stairway to its' present location to save some time and money but it was a compromise.

I considered an L-shaped landing but don't want to give up the headroom that getting down to the floor 'quicker' would give me.

The stairs will be standard boxed treads but I would like to put a small desk accessible from one side underneath. Would I need a double stringer on the side with the opening? How many stringers should I use if the stairway opening is 48" wide?

Dave,

Thank you for the link. I have southern yellow pine. Is that acceptable?

Steve,

Thanks for the tip. I would not have thought of that.

Thanks again everyone.

Greg

[Richard Wolf]

There is always so many variables it is difficult to just give one answer sometimes.
48" is a wide staircase, I can understand why you would want one that wide. If you use standard construction techniques for boxed stringers,(routed stringers, wedged treads and risers) and the staircase is supported, (attached to one wall or some framing menbers supporting part of the stringers) you only need two stringers made from aleast 5/4, (6/4 better) hardwood, (poplar) or SYP.
Your orginial math seems right, and I get the feeling you understand what you want to do.

I will take some pictures at the shop tomorrow that will help show you how to make a template to rout the stringers.
Once again, I'm online everyday, so I will try to answer any questions that come up.
You don't say where you live, so I'm not sure what standard practices are used in your area to build stairs, every part of the country uses different techniques. Not that it really matters unless you get some local advice that conflicts with mine.

Richard

[Tim Burke]

Tim,

Thank you for the link. I assume that you mean that the final height of the bottom tread will be the same as all of the others but the vertical cut on the front of the stringer will be 4 5/8". Is that correct?

I was going to use joist hangers to mount the ends of the stringers to the header at the top.
Greg

Yes, the final height will be the same, which as previously noted, is a crucial goal for stair building. So that vertical height is correct based on the thicknesses that were mentioned.

Joist hangers should be fine if local codes allow, which is probable. However, 2x8" joist headers plus a finished floor is roughly 8-1/2" tall. Your rise is 7-5/8" plus 1-1/2" tread, which is 9-1/8" to the top of your stringer, and somewhere around 14" (guesstimate, exact measure not handy) to the bottom of the stringer. This is why you need an extension from the joist header to meet the end of the stringer.

Tim

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave,

Thank you for the link. I have southern yellow pine. Is that acceptable?

Greg

Greg - In my part of the country we use Douglas Fir or Hemlock for construction lumber - beams, joists, stringers, etc. If SYP is the preferred construction lumber where you live, then that would be fine. Just be sure you use 2X12 construction grade material for the stringers.

[Greg Ladd]

Richard,

I was thinking of a template of some sort. I would be interested in how you do that.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Tim,


The floor joists are 2x10. I am almost duplicating the stringers that are in there, just removing a couple of steps. The old stringers fit well on the headers so I should be ok.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Dave,

Good. 2x12 SYP is the plan then.

Greg

[Richard Wolf]

Here are three pictures that may help you build your staircase. First is the under side of the stairs showing the routed stringer with wedges in place. The next two are pictures of a template to route the stringers.
The template is simple to make; 3/4 inch ply with a cutout for one tread and one riser. The cut out includes room for a wegde behind the riser and under the tread. It also includes room for the router bushing. At this point in making the template run and raise is not important, only that the riser is 90 degrees to the tread.
To use; use your frameing square with the stair gages attached to draw a line on the stringer that will represent a tread, location is not imporant, only the angle. Line up the template with the line you just drew. Without moving the template, attach a fence as seen in the pic that will hold the template at that angle and try to get the bullnose of the tread to be 1 1/2 inches from the top edge of the stringer. Its always easier to start at the bottom of the stairs. Rout out the stringer with a template following bit. You may have to make the cut in multible passes. When the first riser/tread is done, move the template along its fence until you have the correct rise(I mark the template). You can see my pencil marks on the riser part of the template. Repeat as needed. Pay careful attention to the rise, because your error will be compounded at the end.
When you finish one stringer remove the fence and put it on the other side ( or you will have two rights) and make your next one.
I hope this is clear, if not ask me or PM me so I can help you.
I realize this is a crash course in stairbuilding, but with some thinking it is not to difficult.

Richard

[Greg Ladd]

Richard,

Thank you. The pictures make that very clear.

How deep do you route the grooves in the stringers?

Greg

[Richard Wolf]

5/8" TO 3/4".

Richard

[Greg Ladd]

Richard,

The pictures really helped explain what you have been telling me. Thank you very much for taking the time to help like that.

How deep do you rout the grooves in the stringers?

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Administrator,

Please delete my last reply to Richard. For some reason it did not show up on my computer until I posted a second message to Richard.

Greg

[Mark Singer]

For wood stringer , I lay tem one on top of the other in a stack. Nail them together with a couple of duplex nails so they don't move. Use a framing square and brass screw stops to set the rise and run. I like nothing over 7" and tread should be 11" . If you are pinched for space go 10 1/2" with a 1" toe or overlap. On the floor snap out the floor and wall to scale. The PT sill shoul notch into the stringe at the heal,. Using the framing square mark the rise and run to be cut out of the stringer. Set the skill saw deep and as you cut through the firstyou mark the second with the blade. Do not overlap the cuts ....finish with a handsaw. The third stringer should be raised off the floor on stickers so you don't cut into the floor. Cut the notch for the PT plate. You will need blocking at the top and Simson anchors help. You need to adjust top and bottom for floor thickness.http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/markmeasure/25n0801d1b.gif

[Richard Wolf]

Referring to Mark's post about cutting stringers is just what I was talking about when I mentioned different techniques in different parts of the country.
A lot of the country will cut "rough" stringers and than dress the staircase with finished treads, risers and skirtboards or stringers later on as the house gets closer to finished.
In the Northeast, that almost never happens that way, all stairs are built as a finished units and delivered to the job site complete. Both techniques have there advantages, in your case if you built your stair NE style once they are installed your done.
In homebuilding, the rough stringers are covered with ply or 1X to act as temporary treads and as the house gets close to finish the good stuff can be added. In the NE we just cover the good treads with cardboard while the rough trades are still walking in and out.

Good luck,

Richard

[Mark Singer]

Richard,

I learned about 33 years ago from a German master crafstman....he was trained in Germany and went through the apprentice program. I learned to hang doors from him also..." A dime will fit ...not a nickel" He new his stuff!


Referring to Mark's post about cutting stringers is just what I was talking about when I mentioned different techniques in different parts of the country.
A lot of the country will cut "rough" stringers and than dress the staircase with finished treads, risers and skirtboards or stringers later on as the house gets closer to finished.
In the Northeast, that almost never happens that way, all stairs are built as a finished units and delivered to the job site complete. Both techniques have there advantages, in your case if you built your stair NE style once they are installed your done.
In homebuilding, the rough stringers are covered with ply or 1X to act as temporary treads and as the house gets close to finish the good stuff can be added. In the NE we just cover the good treads with cardboard while the rough trades are still walking in and out.

Good luck,

Richard

[Greg Ladd]

Richard,

Thank you for the routing depth information.

I didn't plan on building the staircase the way that you showed but I must admit that building it as one unit and it being completed sounds nice to me. I will give it some serious thought as your method has a very nice finished look. I can see how it would save me a considerable amount of trimming work later on.

My plan was to work on this over the coming weekend but that probably will not happen.

Thanks again for all of your expertise. It is greatly appreciated.

I will let you know how things turn out. I may PM you if I have questions during the actual construction phase if that is OK.

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Mark,

Thank you for the information. Your diagram was helpful. Your post help clarify some things that I was still questioning.
I am still not sure which method I am going to use; the cut stringer method you showed or the routed stringer system that Richard uses. But, I will say I have more knowledge now and either way will be better than what I could have done without your input.

Thank you very much,

Greg

[Von Bickley]

Around here, we see stringers the way Mark Singer described. On a set of stairs 4 foot wide, we would see at least 3 stringers or maybe 4. :cool:

[Greg Ladd]

Von,

I think if I go with Mark's method I will use 4 stringers.

The stringers on the old existing stairs were done the way Mark showed. It is a look I am familiar with.

But, I do like the look that Richard's method finishes with. It would certainly be a decorative improvement over my original plans.

I obviously need to give both of these methods some more thought before I start.

This may be one time when it may have benefitted me to have procrastinated on a project. I have certainly learned from everyone who was kind enought to over some guidance in this thread.

Greg