Lingerie Chest started and your strategy wanted

[Derek Cohen]

Some of you may recall the lingerie chest I began to plan near the end of last year. I had to put the build on hold until recently, and in the last couple of weeks I have managed to get back to it, and actively begun the build.


For a refresher, here is a very basic drawing of the front elevation (I have drawings of the details but nothing that will set your world on fire).


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Design/Front-elevation_zps6hwrn4ei.jpg


All bar the drawers will be Makore, with the drawers in figured Jarrah. They will bend together really well tonally.


The work I have begun is on the sides.


Shaping a curved board from which four stretchers will be sawn ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Stretchers/6scrub2_zpsdwrmnpli.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Stretchers/16-curve1_zpsxxkanrn5.jpg


Side view of the curve ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Stretchers/17curve2_zpsbdsnv3pa.jpg


Four sawn and jointed stretchers...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Stretchers/18-Stretchers-sawn1_zpsvlj5wc36.jpg


Stretchers are matched and marked, and with rails (not cut to length yet) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Stretchers/19-Stretchers-and-rails_zpshjszsljf.jpg


The panels for the frame-and-panel sides have been made. These are solid and 1/4" thick, and book matched. The reason for 1/4" is to ensure that the panels bend (inside the curved frame).


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Panel/2-preparing-to-glue2_zpsglepqe9h.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Panel/6glue4_zpse952gsom.jpg


Both panels have been completed. Here they are stacked, faces inward ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Panel/8stacked-panels_zpsg20d9ppz.jpg


The boards for the back of the chest have also been dimensioned, but just mention this as work done and not post pictures at this time.


Now we are getting close to the question I have for you wastrels.


The design for the sides came down to a choice of these four ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Design/Side-Panel-Details1_zps9ozppwgk.jpg

Originally I was going with "A". The lower section mimics the front. However I decided that the combination would end up with the chest looking like a tent on legs! Choices "B" and "C" were discarded as they introduced a different line. So it would be "D" - which looks plain here, except that you are not seeing it in 3D, where the sides curve outwards in the lower section.


The stretchers are 45mm wide and 30mm thick. The design calls for a bevel on the inside face, which will link with the curved drawer fronts ..

This drawing is not to scale, but one I drew up as a reminder for myself what I planned to do ..
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Design/Front%20Plan_zpsekcf3fgk.jpg
Now the area in question is the frame and panel detail. The flat panel needs a transition to the frame. There were two choices: a bead or a cove (pictures above). I have done a number of doors and panels with integrated beads, and that would have been easier. An example is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Buildtheframe.html


I decided that a cove would make a better transition, as well as link in with the shape of the drawers and, later, the moulding around the top.
So the question is "how would you go about making this cove - keeping in mind that the frame/stretcher are curved?". Together with this, "how do you make a groove for the panel, and how deep should it be?". No, you cannot use a plough plane - unless you have one that goes around corners.


I do have my own ideas, but I am interested in what others come up with.


The order of all these? Again, the scale is way out.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Design/Edging-strategy2_zpsxsff0ztf.jpg
Your thoughts?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Would a scratch stock work for the cove or bead? I am unclear why a router or plow plane cannot work for the panel grooves. Aren't those milled before assembly?

[Shawn Pixley]

Derek,

If I am following you, the grooves for the panels will curve relative to the front of the "leg" assembly (I am a bit confused as to what you are calling the stretchers - Typically stretchers are horizontal members between legs. What you have cut in curves look like the "legs" to me. In your plan & elevation, I see two exposed stretchers and two curved legs on the front elevation.). As such, I can see the plow plane not working but the curve looks shallow enough that a router plane might work fine. I would scribe then chisel the stopped ends of the groove at the lower stretcher and cut the grooves with a router plane all before assembly. These panels are only bent in one direction, right?

As to the cove, I like Prashun's suggestion of scratch stock.

[Kyle DuPont]

This might be really out there, but could be useful if it did work. What about a Stanley 113 with an iron ground to the desired profile/groove width? You would be able to work convex and concave surfaces. It seems like it might work with shallower profiles and grooves. You would use the depth adjustment to max reach and then reset the iron to get a deeper cut.

[Brian Holcombe]

I like the arrangement of panel D and I would take a bead over a cove. I dont think that design choices have to be shown in multiples if each choice makes sense for the project.

[Curt Putnam]

For the panel grooves, I'm going to guess at an appropriately ground iron for your router plane. Perhaps do some rough chip making with a chisel in advance of the router's iron? I suppose that could depend on how well the lines get knifed. Apparently I've been misunderstanding questions lately so the foregoing could well be arrant nonsense.

For the cove I'm going to guess that a beading tool with an appropriately cut scratch stock would be the easiest and fastest route. You're only working with 6mm material after all. Same warning as above.

Those are the ways I'd approach the issues. I'm anxious to find out how you actually do it.

[James Pallas]

Derek I have not done this before so no proof of concept here. I would make a curved wood base for my router plane knife the groove and try to use the fence. The base would not be very thick for such a sweeping curve. Scratch stock for a cove, beader or scratch stock for the edge work. From your past I would guess that you have it done or at least figured out at this point. I'm waiting to be enlightened. It is always fun following you builds.
Jim

[lowell holmes]

My commenting on this issue is like a mule running at the Kentucky Derby, but it seems that it is time for some prototypes. I couldn't faithfully visualize the appearance other wise.

I have no idea what Makore is, but the grain in the pictures sure remind me of the figure in some quarter sawn sapele I have.

I've been planning a document box for a grand daughter about to go away to the university. Sapele will be used .

[Derek Cohen]

Here are pictures of shaping the cove.

A couple of points first, I ran a revised cove past Lynndy, who gave her approval. Secondly, I reduced the thickness of the rails from 30mm to 25mm. I thought the original was too chunky once the pieces were shaped. So I bandsawed/planed away 5mm. This definitely looks better.

It was easier to test out the moulding process on the upper- and lower straight rails, so this is where I began.

The first step was to mark out the groove for the panel. This was done with a knife gauge - even though I would be ploughing with the grain, I did not want any chip out at the shoulders.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/2a_zpsas3aiawh.jpg

The lines were chisels to remove material at the walls ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/3a_zpslapt34vj.jpg

.. and then knifed again to remove the waste ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/4a_zpssod3avwo.jpg

It was then a simple matter of ploughing to the depth of 1/4".

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/5a_zpslqahcxm3.jpg

The boundaries of the cove were scored on each side with a cutting gauge, 1/4" wide on the upper side and 1/8" deep (which is half way to the groove). Then the waste was block planed away close to the lines. On the curved side rails it was easier to use a spokeshave to do this) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/9a_zpswjj1cmsx.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/10a_zpsau6bbini.jpg

I shaped a scraper blade from a 3/4" wide scrap of bandsaw blade ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/11a_zpssdcsjtbj.jpg

This fitted so in a Stanley #66 hand header ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/12a_zpsv3i5wt2d.jpg

Working to the lines ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/13a_zpst4eawk6y.jpg

Shavings ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/14a_zpshj9qduvz.jpg


The result on the straight sections (with some scrap fitted to the groove to show the transition) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/1a_zpsdzlatv6i.jpg

Differences when shaping the curved rails ...

The first was to use a gauge with a small fence as it needed to run inside the curve ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/17a_zpsfzbc9xly.jpg

The other was to use a router plane (with fence) in place of the plough plane ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/18a_zpsk1heuai0.jpg

The results were the same ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/20a_zpsf35hyzbm.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Shaping%20the%20cove/19a_zpsfolfmadz.jpg

Back next time after the side panels are completed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

Moving along well!

Are those Yamahiro chisels?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

You would notice the chisel! They are Kiyohisa - a 3 year wait. I've had them about 5 years now. They delight every time they are used.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa/6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Thanks for sharing this. I have not played with a hand beader, and it is impressive to see what can be done.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Brian

You would notice the chisel! They are Kiyohisa - a 3 year wait. I've had them about 5 years now. They delight every time they are used.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa/6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

very nice!

[James Pallas]

Derek I guess that is one of your hollow grind blades taking those curled up shavings with your router. Great precision work as usual. Do you have a different set of chisels for each of your builds? It does appear so.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

I have a couple of sets of chisels, Jim :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

For those interested in a reading all four chapters of this build - more detail than here - it is now up on my website.


Go to: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html


... and scan down to "Lingerie Chest".


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Most of us have cut a good many mortice and tenon joints over the years. It occurred to me today to ask a question about something we likely take for granted: Do you saw the cheek first, or the shoulder, and how far to the intersection do you go?


For myself I saw the cheeks (as close to the markings as possible) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon1_zpsfgvtgpj7.jpg


.. and stop a smidgeon short of the shoulder line.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon4_zpsbfayuumw.jpg


Having created a knife fence on the shoulder line, I saw the shoulder close to but a smidgeon short of the cheek line ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon6_zpss2pwkrve.jpg


Then it is a case of back-and-forth to sever the bit between ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon7_zpsfk127qzf.jpg


It will eventually pop off nice and clean ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon8_zpssyx1jjwy.jpg


The vanity cheek may now be sawn. This is 1/8" (3mm) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon11_zpslrxtcknf.jpg


.. or the haunch created. The haunches are for the upper side of the panels, with the blind M&T at the lower end (as they do not go all the way to the bottom) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon12_zpssqwoxpsi.jpg


I am now ready to measure and fit to mortices, and then complete the mitres for the coves, and fine tune the shoulders ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon13_zpso7zo6xlt.jpg


Ready for the weekend ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tenon14_zpshxrg0xoe.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along nicely Derek!

I know this is far ahead, but I am curious, are you going to line the drawers?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

It's a fair question.

I am hoping to acquire Campher Laurel for the drawer bottoms. The sides with be Tasmanian Oak, which is a light wood, but I can get quarter sawn stock. The top two drawers, however, which will be used for jewellery or similar, are planned to be divided and lined with dark blue leather.

Here's a photo I took for you, of the tools used today ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Mortice%20and%20tenon%20joinery/Tools_zpsrqbv80lg.jpg

The small crosscut saw was one I made.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah, thank you! Did you make those gauges as well? They look pretty sweet and I'm finding it's very hard to have too many marking gauges.

I think we're on the same page, as I'm doing the same thing for the jewelry drawers (black leather leftovers from my desk build a few years back). I've been debating this, and wondering what you're doing as well since we're working similar projects. Previously I have made box liners for the inside of the drawers, but they rarely miter as well as I would likw, and so this time I think I will make the rabbet in the drawer wide enough so that the liner can be applied directly to the drawer bottom and installed, also, into rabbet. Making a seamless image from inside the drawer.

Are you doing something to this effect or something else entirely?

I've looked at the inside of Elie Bleu's boxes and really like how they are lined (usually suede) but I'm unaware of the mechanics of their approach.

[Derek Cohen]

Can't have too many gauges. Those ones began life as cheapies, and I gave them a big make-over.

Thanks for Elie Bleau's name. I do not know her (him, them?). I shall Google for info.

The leather/suede should be fitted to drawers with slips, and slip inside.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

First I saw the shoulders, then the cheeks. No idea why really, it's just a habit. I saw pretty far to the line, don't worry too much if I nick the tenon an ini mini little bit. But nicking the shoulder line would look pretty bad of course. Usually I need to clean out the corner with a chisel, and do some undercutting of the shoulders with the same chisel. And it is rare when a door goes together without some fine tuning.

Nice work as usual Derek. Looking forward to see the result.

[Brian Holcombe]

Cheers!

Elie Bleu is a French boxmaker, mostly famous for humidors with marquetry.

[Mike Allen1010]

Derek, as always beautiful work! Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. I and eagerly looking forward to going to your website to see the whole build.

I really admire the precision of your joinery and the shaping of the cove – just exquisite.

Most of my big mistakes come from placing too much emphasis on speed, even when not appropriate/necessary (definitely a character flaw). Thank you for the reminder that a true craftsman knows when it pays to move along at a judicious clip, and most importantly, it also know when to slow down and get things as accurate as possible (like when sawing the junction of the cheeks and shoulders on Tennons).

I also really like your marking gauges – I could see how they would be very helpful in getting nice clean shoulders when plowing grooves (something I struggle with). Just one more Derek Cohen idea to shamelessly copy!

Derek your generosity in sharing your ideas/work is a HUGE blessing to everyone here in the Creek. Thanks again for your posts. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the build.

All the best, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Below is a link to my ongoing build.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel.html


This focussed on taking these parts ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SawingATenon_html_m70ede146.jpg


.. and forming this joint ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel_html_me961e0a.jpg


.. to create this curved panel ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel_html_m7b09c2af.jpg


This is just a dry fitting at this stage. The emphasis here is the cove as a transition from frame to panel ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel_html_30251cbc.jpg


Hopefully you will find parts to discuss or critique.


Too little available time this weekend for building. I am hopeful of completing the other panel next weekend.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along well!

I am curious as to why you went with a square haunch. My feeling is that a mitered haunch would help to compress the mitered cove as the draw-boring brings it together since it would force it to seat firmly on the opposing wall. Well at least that is my thinking.

[Kees Heiden]

One bit of critique if you don't mind. In my eye the rails and styles have too much figure. That makes it look a bit busy.

[Mark Stutz]

Coming along well!

I am curious as to why you went with a square haunch. My feeling is that a mitered haunch would help to compress the mitered cove as the draw-boring brings it together since it would force it to seat firmly on the opposing wall. Well at least that is my thinking.


Please educate me. To my eye, the cove does appear to be mitered. Or is it an optical illusion because of the cove?

[Brian Holcombe]

The cove is mitered. What I'm suggesting is that a mitered haunch;

http://jawoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mt4.jpg


Would put additional pressure on the cove miter, further ensuring a tight fitting miter as the joint is drawn together by the pin.

Just a thought/suggestion.

[Mark Stutz]

Ahhh! A picture is worth a thousand words! Thanks.

[Brian Holcombe]

Anytime! Cheers!

[Derek Cohen]

One bit of critique if you don't mind. In my eye the rails and styles have too much figure. That makes it look a bit busy.

Hi Kees

The camera flash tends to exaggerate the figure and add a shine. I mentioned that in the article. It is softer in the flesh.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Coming along well!

I am curious as to why you went with a square haunch. My feeling is that a mitered haunch would help to compress the mitered cove as the draw-boring brings it together since it would force it to seat firmly on the opposing wall. Well at least that is my thinking.

Hi Brian

That is a good strategy, and one that did not occur to me. Have you done this? My focus was on aligning both the mitre and the shoulder. I did question my sanity on several occasions! :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel_html_72f56f6d.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Similar, I did so on the back panel on my cabinet but the goal was to maintain the baseline (no inside miter) and the alignment of a rabbeted top. But in seeing the inside miter on yours, it seemed like an equally good fit for that goal as well.

I'll post some pictures soon as I wrap up the back panel on mine.

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Kees

The camera flash tends to exaggerate the figure and add a shine. I mentioned that in the article. It is softer in the flesh.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's good. :)
And indeed, pictures can work very decieving.

[James Pallas]

Derek the panel looks very nice. Sorry I'm so far behind on commenting. I'm following on your page to get to see all of it. Working with curves is always a challenge you are doing it very well. The rest of it will be quite challenging also. Always interesting to see how you approach the tasks.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks James.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

A final few pictures to complete the section on the panels, as we move to planning out the drawer dividers.


Here is the second panel (on the right) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Dividers/1a_zpsyple2zof.jpg


While it appears less figured than the first panel completed (on the left), it does have a special charm of its own. Here is a close up of the book matching and the central figure ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Dividers/2a_zpsvcgb4ypv.jpg


This will give you a little more of an idea of the curve in the design ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Dividers/5a_zps9xhmhdi3.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Dividers/3a_zpsjh5ngqmv.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work, Looking forward to seeing the back join in.

[James Pallas]

Derek it is interesting that the curvature of the grain in your panels is a match for the curve of the panels, one in and one out on the grain, but still matching. It would be interesting if you could somehow get your drawer faces to follow that curve also. I'm not trying to mess with your design just making an observation.
Jim

[ian maybury]

Hi Derek. Nice going. A question as much as anything regarding sawing tenons. The difficulty i've run into in the relatively few (and much less respectably destined) examples I've cut is that it's very tough to stop the saw cut right on the line of the shoulder without overshooting on the side that's not getting attention. Especially on the wider sides. (cheeks?)

Wonder is it an option to stop slightly short as you do on the cheek, and to saw the shoulder to the line. Then pop it off with a chisel? It depends a bit on the line of the grain, but over a very short distance it might not matter too much - the wider sides of the tenon are typically hidden anyway. There's those it seems that don't use a saw at all for the cheeks - they split them away and finish with a chisel. Seems like it'd have to be risky on difficult wood. It might not be the plan for e.g. exposed ends either.

Probably anathema, but it'd also be pretty simple to come up with a stop to clamp on the blade of the saw (a bit like a bulldog clip - except heavy duty and bolt/clamp up) to limit the depth of cut.

Perhaps in the end the game is just practice/practice/practice - using aids means the manual skill will never be learned….

[Brian Holcombe]

Ian,

I build box frames for art work for a friend of mine. The backs are half-lapped and the corners are mitered and glued. I've done 100~ by now and so I've cut 800 shoulders by hand, I was really mediocre before and now I'm pretty much on the line. Practice can help tremendously, especially if you are reviewing technique during sessions.

[ian maybury]

That sounds like the way to learn all right Brian. Guess it's a case of stick with it.

I've done a lot of handsawing to the line over the years, and by and large don't have too much trouble sawing down a line. Everything I cut as a kid was with a hand saw. Getting stopped at exactly the correct depth is something that doesn't come so easily though - it wasn't something I did much of. Dead easy to mess up, and a tendency to get a bit over focused/mentally intense about the issue which as well as being counterproductive is very tiring and not much fun...

[Brian Holcombe]

I am certainly guilty of the occasional over cut as well. If it's super critical sometimes I'll mark with pen just to make sure I do not overshoot the mark.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek. Nice going. A question as much as anything regarding sawing tenons. The difficulty i've run into in the relatively few (and much less respectably destined) examples I've cut is that it's very tough to stop the saw cut right on the line of the shoulder without overshooting on the side that's not getting attention. Especially on the wider sides. (cheeks?)

Wonder is it an option to stop slightly short as you do on the cheek, and to saw the shoulder to the line. Then pop it off with a chisel? ….

Hi Ian

It always depends on the importance of the joint, that is, will it form an aesthetic part of the piece you are building. So the mortice-and-tenons in the chest sides need to be as perfect as I can get them. Over-cutting is not ok. I'd rather play safe, as I did do, and ensure clean ends.

On the other hand, the drawer dividers will not be seen. An over cut there will just speed up the work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

It's always a bit disheartening to hit a problem that threatens to derail the project before it has managed to truly get underway.


When we left off last time, the panels were done and I began planning the drawer dividers.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Coved-Frame-And-Panel_html_32f96436.jpg


Then I noticed that the join in the book-matched panel on the left had split in near the centre. It was possible to flex it back-and-forth. The lower- and upper sections were still holding. I wiggled a little hide glue into the split and pulled it tight with clamps. I returned after a day, and it looked strong. It had been my plan all along to add 1/4" thick strips at the inside of the panel, which would both stiffen and reinforce. Now it looked like this would be necessary, rather than insurance.


The areas for the 3" wide strips were marked off, and the finish scraped off the centre of each panel. One panel remained intact as this work took place. The other split .. again. Damn and bugger.


My wife said "take it off". I thought I may be getting lucky, but - no - she meant the panel :)


Thank goodness for hide glue! I had used Titebond Liquid Hide Glue all along. However, I have never had to undo anything before. This was a first.


The first step was to drill out the pins. One side of the hole was covered with waterproof tape and boiling water was poured in. A heat gun added more heat. A clamp was used in reverse direct to push the sections apart. Slowly it moved, and then .... then my camera decided to blow up the memory card, and every photo of this process was lost! Double damn!


I started over today ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/1a_zps6nbmdaxt.jpg


Post-mortum of the panel indicated that the spring joint gap was too large ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/2aa_zpsnspty4yp.jpg


Clamping the pieces together would have squeezed out the glue.


Checking the sides against a straight edge, it was clear which piece was the offender ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/3a_zpsabjenxvs.jpg


I am not sure if I demonstrated the method I used to joint these thin 1/4" thick panel sections. Well this is how it was done ..


First step was to lift the board up on a 1/2" thick section of MDF (nice and flat). The second piece was added for balance ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/4a_zpsxwddodea.jpg


A second piece of MDF was layed on top, and then weighted down with bricks (to ensure the edge was flat and parallel to the bench top ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/5a_zpspeii9svj.jpg


A jointer plane was now about to shoot the edge square ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/6a_zpsh2m5pels.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/7a_zpsznakkgj1.jpg


Generally I plane the centre to create a spring joint, but here I was reducing the existing gap by planing it flatter. In the end it was a very slight, almost imperceptible hollow ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/8a_zpsyqljh3ij.jpg


To glue up, the panel pieces were first work from the back side. Tape was stretched across and used to pull the sections together ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/9a_zpsjm7aicjh.jpg


The full side was done, with the joint line reinforced to minimise glue running out ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/10a_zps5419mkfj.jpg


Reversing the panel, glue was spread down the join ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/11a_zpsixxyms4o.jpg


This could then be opened out, taped together (again with stretched tape), joins levelled with a plastic mallet, and lightly clamped together. Bricks were added to hold everything flat while the glue dried ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/12a_zpst7aqer3z.jpg


While this is drying, the solid panel received its reinforcing strip ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/One%20step%20back/14a_zpsbmp21q12.jpg


The program will be resumed shortly ...


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

That's aggravating, but glad to hear you were able to repair without destroying the frame.

[James Pallas]

Great recovery Derek. Those things happen to everyone, it's what one does to fix the problem that matters. Band aide or permanent always chases us around. Happy to see you went with permanent even though it was a lot of work. Band aides can get pretty nasty after they start getting old. Very nice of you to show the work instead of just going on like it didn't happen.
Jim

[ian maybury]

Hi Derek. Frustrating that sort of thing. Apart from joint configuration adhesives always have the potential to throw up a problem like that out of the blue - all it takes is a hint of something on the surface that reduces the wetting effect, or the penetration/mechanical interlock. Along with dispensing and handling complications it's one of the major factors that tends to inhibit further update of adhesives use in industry - especially on structural/mission critical stuff.

Watch out for the bricks. I've been known to use them as i have a handy stack from when we built the house years ago - but they can be very prone to dropping grit which can easily get embedded in wooden surfaces - with potential for damage to both work and tools.

[Derek Cohen]

First of all I am very pleased - and relieved - to mention that the panels are back in one piece and together.


Then just a couple of comments about the failure and the hide glue ...


The reason for the failure was that the join was glue-starved. As simple as that. Well, almost.


The reason for the join being glue starved was not because I used too little glue, and not because of the type of glue, but because I over-tightened the clamps.


The over-tightening was due to the spring joint being too wide. What is a good- and what is a bad spring joint? Well, a good joint is one that may be closed with hand pressure, and a bad one is one that requires help to do so. In the case of the one panel, I got it right. In the case of the failed panel, clearly I did not. I could see light through the centre when I inspected the join, and immediately I knew this was the cause. Pulling the join together with a clamp just disguised the issue since all the tension was at the centre (where the join failed), and the force squeezed the glue out ...... no glue + tension = open up.


A second question is "why spring at all". Some like to do this and others argue that it is not necessary, that glue is tougher than wood. In my book, it is important to ensure that the ends of a panel contact each other. If there is any curvature to mating sides (and often this is difficult to see - which is the point), extra clamping at the ends creates two tension sections .. where as the spring joint only creates one tension point. But the spring must be almost imperceptible, as in the photo I posted.


A third issue is the choice of Titebond hide glue. Well hide glue rocks ... but Titebond? I have had a number of emails warning me about its use, that it is unreliable, etc. My experience with it is not long - about two years. In that time I cannot recall a failure. It needs to be pointed out that the mortice-and-tenon joints were solid. There was no failure there. Still, I accept that some of these critics are experienced with hide glues.


I must admit that I have avoided going to the trouble of preparing the stuff myself since I am lazy. The issue is that I get into the workshop on weekends only, and making up a fresh batch of glue each time, keeping it warm, etc .. well, it does not thrill me. Anyone have a way of circumventing this?


So back to the repair.


It the face needed a minimal amount of scraping to level the joint ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/Repair1_zpsknextyuc.jpg


... before I called it good and re-glued and pinned the panel inside the frame.


The repaired panel is on the left ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/100a_zpsdqocfkjw.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/102a_zpsk2owa6vt.jpg


Reinforcing strips were added to the rear - I had planned to do this anyway to beef up the thin panels. They will not be seen (on the inside) but will offer a little more reliability ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/101a_zps1uyvh9qf.jpg


Some may be interested in the supports I built to aid accuracy in dimension and to keep everything square. The first was the base, which also will enable the chest to be moved around later ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/103a_zps9sljpygw.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/107a_zpskqyiuycn.jpg


The other clamps across the top ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/104a_zps4l5c4zri.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/106a_zpst5hmkigg.jpg


So now we are back to clamping all on the jigs, with an added section of MDF clamped to the rear. The plumb bob ensures that vertical and centre is created, and may be returned to at any time ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/105a_zpskebhfjhp.jpg


Once this is done, the inside perimeter can be traced onto the MDF. The MBF is moved to the bench, where the drawer dividers are drawn in. This is to act as a template.


A line is drawn down the centre of the cabinet template, and the dimensions first marked on this centre line ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/108a_zpsqa6xegbj.jpg


They are then transferred to each side ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/109a_zpsvca5b5xf.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/110a_zpswxagzzoo.jpg


Here is the template back supporting the chest sides ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/112a_zpsd90mgb6b.jpg


I moved it to the other side and it was reassuring that there was about 1mm difference in the marked outline.

[Derek Cohen]

Now the intention was not to use these marks as the template, but rather to create a template from them. To do this the MDF outline was sawn down the centre, and then the curved side band sawn out, with a little cleaning up done with a small block plane.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/113a_zpsgufh0dhd.jpg


Measurements are marked both sides ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/114a_zpsrivqyv3o.jpg


... and then transferred to each side of one board (only) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/115a_zpswvv9yybe.jpg


The panels are clamped together and the markings transferred from one board to the other ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/117a_zpshsyzogdx.jpg


Once one side is match, the boards are rotated to complete the other matching edges ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Back%20on%20Track/116a_zpse1n9klw0.jpg


Now we can move on to marking out angled sliding dovetails and build the draw dividers.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

Are you tapering the sliding DT's on the sides? I left mine plain out of fear that a long tapered DT with grain going opposite directions would lead to a crack, but maybe that is unfounded.

Cheers
Brian

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

The sliding dovetails will be very short - just about 1/2 - 2/3 of the leg width each. Consequently they will not be tapered.

What I have to do is fit the sliding dovetails into angled sides. I have a plan but any suggestions?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Ahh I see, I might want to cut an angled housing into the legs so that you can use straight on dovetails which will be much easier.

How are you building your web frames? Separate pieces or making assemblies first?

[Derek Cohen]

Spot on with the housings, Brian.

For the webs, I plan separate assemblies - to do the front and rear dovetailed sections first, then add in the mortice and tenon sides.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool, I think that'll do well. Looking forward to more updates, it's coming along very nicely.

[Derek Cohen]

The cabinet carcase is now complete and together as a dry fit.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Before%20the%20drawer%20blades/68a_zpsinygb0dz.jpg


You cannot see the curve on the front elevation in this photo, but it is clearer in the documentation ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Before%20the%20drawer%20blades/66a_zps6xeeepmy.jpg


It had been my intention to post the carcase with completed draw blades – this would have been the next stage in any cabinet with straight sides. However it became increasingly apparent that, as a result of the many curves, this build is a tad more complicated, and I am have been left wondering whether I would ever get to be in a position to build the drawer blades as something else kept cropping up! It was a case of “I’d better to this before I get to that as it will not be possible later. And on and on ..


It is possible – and indeed I like to hear the opinion of others here – that the sliding dovetails for the drawer blades could be marked and formed from inside the completed carcase. I am now seriously considering this method. Indeed, I cannot see an alternative. The carcase could be dis-assembled and assembled repeatedly for work to be checked, carried out, and then checked again. However the latter will cause wear on the joinery, with resulting loss of tautness and accuracy.


Let's hear your thoughts on constructing the drawer blades. The front and rear are planned to be sliding dovetails (as has so much of this construction so far).


Here is the build in detail: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PreparingForTheDrawerBlades.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

It seems like a lot of planning for little actual progress. However the basic carcase was glued up after stopped rebated were planed at the rear, and the strategy for making the sliding dovetails in the curved sides from inside the front leg/frame was finalised.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

p.s. anyone reading this stuff?

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Derek,

Yes! as always. Appreciate you taking time to post here at SMC as well as other sites.

Thanks,
C

[Mark Kornell]

Derek,

It is far enough above my skill level that I merely observe and learn. But rest assured that you have at least one peson reading. Absolutely fascinating.

[Pat Barry]

It seems like a lot of planning for little actual progress. However the basic carcase was glued up after stopped rebated were planed at the rear, and the strategy for making the sliding dovetails in the curved sides from inside the front leg/frame was finalised.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

p.s. anyone reading this stuff?


Yes - reading along and very fascinated. I especially appreciate the links you provide to the details because when I'm at work, you 'attached' photobucket images (I assume they are photobucket or something similar anyway) are blocked by our IT department. I can see everything on your website. Great progress. Now that the 'easy' part is done, I'm really looking forward to the drawer fabrication and fitting

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along beautifully :D I'm always hopeful that monday will show the results of your weekend!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks guys.

Pat, anything written for my website includes images imbedded in the article. I do have a Photobucket account, but these images do not part of the articles.

Brian, I always try to get what is done written after the weekend - when it is still fresh in my mind. Here's hoping that there is something worth reporting after this weekend.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Allen1010]

Derek,

I'm a little behind so apologize if this comment is not in sequence.

I really appreciate your Comments/pictures on repairing the separating joint in the panel for a couple reasons: I routinely experience similar situations that call for a do-over. I feel better knowing even An incredibly talented expert like you has the occasional need for a do over as well.

Secondly, I don't have much experience with Hide Glue - I've always been put off by the messy glue pot(Which I assumed was sort of a requirement). In your thread, I could see how using the Hide glue made the repair much easier. I was wondering if you could help me with a couple hide Glue related questions:

What are the applications that you use HIde glue for most frequently?

Do you make your own, or buy off-the-shelf pre-made hide glue (I believe in the State's Titebond offers boittled liquid HG)?

Can you use HG at room temperature, or is it a better idea to routinely use it heated?

I know these questions are bit off topic, But really respect your experience/insight and very much appreciate your advice.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your work! Your descriptions and photographs are fantastic and I always learn lots from your posts!

Best, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the kind words - exaggerated though they may be. :)

I am really not an expert on glues. My experience with hide glue is relatively short, just over the last couple of years. And then it has only been the liquid variety.

I have not had bad experiences with Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, although some have been disappointed. I am only now about to start using hot hide glue, and have purchased a wax heater for this purpose - have a look on eBay for a small pot that melts wax for leg waxing. They are ideal for hot hide glue.

One of the advantages of the Liquid HG is that it has a long open time. This helps when putting together a carcase as there is time to adjust sides for square. Hot hide glue sets rapidly and should help limit the number of clamps needed.

As you noted, hide glue is reversable. I use it where ever this may be necessary. I do not use mechanical joints, such as biscuits or dominos, but if I did then I would use Titebond II.

Others here will likely chip in with their observations.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matt Lau]

Derek,

You must have a very special wife to warrant this project.

[Derek Cohen]

Below is the work completed over the past weekend. The Lingerie Chest is progressing steadily.


The strategy for the sliding dovetails into curved sides looks to be successful. The strategy was necessitated by the design, which required the housings to be made from inside the front legs, rather than from outside, as is usual.


There is also a novel method for creating the sliding dovetails using an easy-to-make dovetail plane (everyone will make one!).


The article is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetails-LC.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along very nicely!

[Pat Barry]

Great work as usual Derek. I really do appreciate the way you document your work and thoughts so thoroughly, but I do have to say that I got a bit lost on the concern over fitting the sliding dovetails "from the rear". I didn't follow the reason that it was important that they be fit from the rear. I thought at first when it was mentioned that you would be doing stopped dovetails (not through dovetails) so that the front edge hid the dovetail. But I see that you made through dovetails and therefore I don't follow the fitting them from the rear strategy. Can you elaborate on that a bit. By the way, this is going to be a very impressive cabinet when you are done. Really, really sweet work

[James Pallas]

Derek really very good work! I was looking at this and it made me think that a hundred years from now, or maybe two hundred, if someone needs to make a repair they will be thinking of "How in the world did he do that?". I think that you and Brian perform the most interesting joinery I have ever seen. It is very good of you to share the thought process and the work itself with everyone.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Derek I look for your posts here and I also go to in the wood shop every few days to check for other items you may have added. Thanks again.
jim

[Derek Cohen]

Below is the latest installment of the Lingerie Chest build. I get the chance to test out whether the strategy to build the sliding dovetail housings from the rear of the carcase for the front of the carcase works or not.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheProofOfThePudding.html


I know that there are no questions asked, but please feel free to comment or offer your thoughts how you would do it differently.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool, awesome to see the cabinet with the drawer blades in. What do you have in mind for the drawers to slide on? How will you attach those parts?

[Pat Barry]

Great work as usual Derek. I really do appreciate the way you document your work and thoughts so thoroughly, but I do have to say that I got a bit lost on the concern over fitting the sliding dovetails "from the rear". I didn't follow the reason that it was important that they be fit from the rear. I thought at first when it was mentioned that you would be doing stopped dovetails (not through dovetails) so that the front edge hid the dovetail. But I see that you made through dovetails and therefore I don't follow the fitting them from the rear strategy. Can you elaborate on that a bit. By the way, this is going to be a very impressive cabinet when you are done. Really, really sweet work
Now I see that you are doing stopped dovetails for the front leg. Fitting them from the rear as you have determined is a great solution. Once again, thanks for the documentation. Beautiful work.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Derek,

It is wonderful to see the cabinet assembled. The proportions are lovely--your careful design work has paid off. One question- the back panel is impressive! Will it remain one panel or will it be divided into 2 or 3?

Cheers,
Chris C.

[Patrick McCarthy]

p.s. anyone reading this stuff?[/QUOTE]

OH HECK YES. and appreciative too. patrick

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Chris

It will remain one panel. The panel is made of four jointed boards. These were the plainest, least figured of the Makore. The slim frame that surrounds them is made in Jarrah, so there is a touch of the front drawers at the rear. While the rear is likely hardly to be seen, I like the idea of finishing it to the same standard as the front. The purpose of the frame is to enable the panel to expand, as well as to hide the edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

It's been at least a month since I managed time on the Lingerie Chest. Found some time today. It seems to take forever to get the rhythm back.


We left off last time with the sliding mortice sockets installed. These had been built in one section (a "fillet" - I did not know what else to call it), which was split into two parts, one for the rear and another for the front of the carcase. This was to ensure that they were both parallel and coplanar in this curved sided chest ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheProofOfThePudding_html_m18de464a.jpg


The front and rear drawer blades were fitted ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheProofOfThePudding_html_m62cac893.jpg


Today every was removed ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/1a_zpsnuvdaiav.jpg


The first task was to ensure that there were no sections of the fillet that were higher than the sides of the carcase (otherwise the drawers would not be flush with the sides). These were pared down ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/2a_zpsq9fxq4w6.jpg


The dovetails in the fillets needed to be extended into the sides of the carcase ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/4a_zps0nkfamnn.jpg


... by 20mm (this will leave space for a 22mm thick drawer front and a shadow front edge). The fillets were glued onto the panel - any movement in the floating panel will be towards the rear, and allowance for this is made in that area. The extention of the sliding dovetails would solidify the structure at the front ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/6a_zps8pqmsn7m.jpg


The sides of the sockets were saw, first with a dozuki and then extended a little deeper with an azebiki.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/7a_zpskrckk5hj.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/8a_zpsc828twdy.jpg


The ends were drilled to depth ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/9a_zpskq3hiswe.jpg


.. and then pared out. The sides of the sockets became handy guides to maintain angles ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/10a_zpssmi3dvjx.jpg


Now that that front and rear drawer blades were in their correct positions, the side drawer runners needed to be made.


The drawer blades were morticed and the runners received tenons ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/11a_zps1uaccb6p.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/12a_zpsvmh977cr.jpg


In fitting them, the front blades were first inserted (from the inside), and the runners fitted (the picture below is taken from the rear of the chest) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/13a_zpsxtbuzcm9.jpg


The rear blade could then be attached. The photo below is taken from the front of the chest. The lower two drawer blades and runners are filled (dry so far) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/15a_zpssgyveuua.jpg


Note that the drawer fronts are bowed, and bowed filler sections are yet to be added to the front drawer blades.


And the last photo before I close up for next weekend ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners/16a_zpsirecqvp5.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Wonderful work Derek!

[Christopher Charles]

Looks like you're making it through a tricky assembly with style and aplomb. Will look forward to more.

Cheers,
C

[David B. Morris]

Derek, beautiful work as always. A question about your glue-up sequence: When gluing up a carcass with drawers, do you glue up the four sides first, then add blades and runners, or do you include one or more of these parts when you glue up the sides?. I realize this piece is unique because of the curved sides and the frame and panel, so you have "play" within the carcass to put the runners and blades in afterward. What would be your sequence with straight sides and solid panels?
I ask because I often find glue-ups like these, even after a good dry fit, panic-inducing.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

In the typical solid side cabinet, the blades and runners would run in dados. These would be added before the carcase is glued up. The reason I add the blades and runners after glue up is that it is more accurate to work to what is there than what the measurements should be. It is sooooo much easier working with a square carcase!

Here is a solid carcase with runners and blades installed ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/GlueingUp_html_m74fbceee.jpg

However, retrace steps , and you have the dovetailed carcase beng glued up, and you can see the dados already formed ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/GlueingUp_html_m4e636b5b.jpg

Another piece goes in ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/GlueingUp_html_483dcfe7.jpg

The top dovetailed section is added ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/GlueingUp_html_m47a4e12d.jpg

And now the blades/runners are added ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/GlueingUp_html_d81dc86.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Expertly done Derek.
jim

[David B. Morris]

Thank you, Derek. Very helpful!

[Derek Cohen]

There are a couple of techniques regarding tuning of the mortice and tenon that hopefully are worthy of discussion.


The next chapter of the build is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/LingerieChestMorticeTenons.html


For those who just want the update on the build progress, here it is ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/LingerieChestMorticeTenons_html_m459388d8.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along nicely, I'm sure that you share my moment of satisfaction when seeing all of the drawer web frames in. For me that is when it started to finally feel like a cabinet.

If you don't mind my question, have you decided upon a lock for this chest? If you have, would you mind sharing the maker. I'm looking at whitechapel for mine but have no personal experience with them (I generally do not bother with locks).

I noticed you have a bottom clearing chisel at the ready, do you use that even along with pig stickers?

Thank you.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

I know what you mean about the chest appearing with the completion of the drawer blades and runners!

There will need to be two "locks". One is for the top drawer, which is essentially a jewelry box. I am taken with the Shaker system, where the drawer is held in place with a wooden spring. Simpy, the spring is a flexible section of wood that angles forwards from under the drawer. The drawer locks when the edge of the spring jambs against the back of the front drawer blade. To releave the spring/lock, the second drawer is opened and the lever pushed up to clear the rear of the drawer blade. My variation to this is to add a central muntin. The muntin will have a groove routed down the centre. Fron the underside, if one looks into the cabinet from inside the drawer, it will appear to be decoration/ construction. The groove will act as a finger hole to release the spring.

The top also needs a lock of sorts. This is more of a release catch, to release the central section with the mirror from the surrounding moulding and allow it to hinge up. I am working on this. Any ideas are welcomed.

The bottom cutting chisel is in constant use with mortice chisels as I mainly chop down and avoid prizing upward, especially near the ends.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds awesome, looking forward to seeing how that is done when you are at that point.

I've made shift with a birdcage awl long enough that I think I will pickup a bottom cutting chisel.

Cheers

[James Pallas]

Derek, Coming along very well. I am watching closely. It is interesting to follow your build and Brian's build and following the back and forth conversation in the process. Two journeymen building similarly purposed furniture almost in tandem. Where else can you find something like that? Keep it up you are being watched!
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

James, you are right. Brian's chest is a different design and has a different concept to mine, yet they have similarities of purpose. And what is the probability of the two chests being built at the same time? Of course, mine is better. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Well, it has been a lot of work to complete the drawer runners. Everything is now done preparatory to building the drawers. I've really been looking forward to this stage, since it will be another challenge.


The drawer runners, themselves, required a great deal of finicky work. Getting them in square and coplanar is straight forward in a straight construction, but curves and compound angles change all that.


We left off last time with the basic frames in ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/LingerieChestMorticeTenons_html_m459388d8.jpg


To the front of each drawer blade was added a bow.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/4a_zpsjvnvwdak.jpg


I was asked early on why I did not just shape this directly on the blade. The reason I chose to do it this way was just that I felt I had more control over the result. Every drawer is a different width, and needs to project in a coplanar line from top to bottom. I drew up a template to shape a consistent curve ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/18a_zpsqgu7osh0.jpg


That is the Jarrah for the drawer fronts at the rear.


The upper most drawer will have a secret lock (since this drawer will be a jewellery box). I decided to use the Shaker method. My variation consists of cutting a slot in a centre mullion ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/7a_zpsquoyrhsp.jpg


... which is lowered below the rails ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/8a_zpsykzehgz7.jpg


There will be a spring (probably in mild steel) beneath the drawer that will drop down and lock into the rear of the front drawer blade ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/9a_zpsk33hsael.jpg


A finger (through the slot - which will hide the mechanism from below) will lift the spring to permit the drawer to slide forward ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/10a_zpsvtfy0ymm.jpg


Since the casework is a framed panel, guides are needed for the drawers ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/14a_zpsk6mvffim.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/13a_zpsfs8d3ocz.jpg


Here are they installed. Perhaps you can begin to see the how the slight bow will form ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/15a_zpskgumlquo.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawer%20Runners%204/16a_zps8yoztsdz.jpg


Now I need to figure out the drawers construction - coping it into the sides. Any thoughts?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jerry Olexa]

Beautiful work.....Nicely done.

[James Pallas]

Looking great Derek, I enjoy very much following the build. On request for suggestions I would set the drawer face up and scribe from the back. I think a low angle spoke shave would work the end grain okay. I think I would want a flat inside of the drawer front for reference so I think a reshape to wooden rabate plane or a croze plane could be used to work a rebate to fit the drawer blades. I would put the sides in square and then work the curve into them. Tommy MacDonald fashioned a wooden Jack plane with a side to side curve to work the full side of his bombe secretary, I thought that was a good idea. If you get the curve close you could just plane away to get the fit to the point where a scraper will finish up. I like the drawer lock. I'm waiting to see how you work out the push releases for the drawers. The challenges are the best part don't you think?
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

This is the start of the second stage in this build. Now that the carcase and drawer blades/runners are completed, it is time to start on the drawers.


The drawers are complex as they call for compound angles and dovetails. The design may be improved, and I welcome comments about this and the methodology.


This chapter provides a pictorial on the design and construction I have come up with so far. Pine is used in this test case (where Jarrah fronts and Tasmanian Oak sides will be used in the final build). However, the construction is for real.


The link is here (too many photos to post on the forum): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DesigningTheDrawers.html


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DesigningTheDrawers_html_m46b665e5.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Pat Barry]

I think this work is the embodiment of master craftsmanship. Just outstanding!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Pat.

I do wish that it would be a springboard for discussion. Come on you lazy sods :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

You could make all the drawers from pine and veneer the fronts.

[Derek Cohen]

That should look spectacular, Kees! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Well, you wanted a discussion!

And it isn't such a stupid idea. Many of the great examples from the 18th century were made with veneer. Another idea is of course to only use the show wood for the front panel and pine for the rest.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

I did toy with the idea of veneering, and may need to if the figure on the boards I have looks wrong.

The wood for the drawer sides is quarter sawn Tasmanian Oak, which is a eucalyptus and not an oak :) The early English settlers were fond of giving names to Australian woods that resembled those at home. The great thing about Tassie Oak (as it is referred to here) is that it is freely available quarter sawn and it pretty stable. For drawer sides it is excellent. It is a light wood and will be a good contrast to the dark Jarrah I shall use for the drawer fronts.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Thanks Pat.

I do wish that it would be a springboard for discussion. Come on you lazy sods :)

Regards from Perth

Derek
Well then, I suppose. I did see that your shooting board wasn't ramped and that you did use a skew plane. Well done!

[Derek Cohen]

Gee, thanks for that, Pat :rolleyes: :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

What a master class. Thanks for posting.

[Kees Heiden]

Good luck Derek. I think the tasmanian oak will look wonderfull.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the next chapter in my lingerie chest build: the drawers. Just two of eight so far. I cannot believe how long each one is taking! Hopefully I shall speed up as I now understand what is needed.


I did promise to post once I had a few done. I shall not get back to the build for about a month as we are off to the UK for a few weeks.


For those who just want the details, the link is: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers.html


These are compound angled drawers, with a bow front and angled sides. There are flush beaded slips, amongst the details.


For those who just want a progress picture, this is for you ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/BuildingTheDrawers_html_56361802_zpsdcrxgzwa.jpg


(The carcase is Makore, a West African hardwood, while the drawers fronts are Jarrah)


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Looks great, are these two fronts from the same piece?

The grain pattern seems to flow from one to the other.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

I started with these two boards, which were bookmatched.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/LingerieChest1_html_b74911c.jpg

This has made it a little easier to get a match by playing around with the boards.

Just enough. No second chances.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Excellent work Derek. I guess I'll have to nickname your piece Blaze as I have nicknamed Brian's Gypsy. These unveilings are getting stressful. The interesting part for me is to watch how you problem solve and the same for Brian's build. I have made some notes to save for myself. It is very good that you chose to share your work. I would not want to be a juror for a show that would have to decide whether yours or Brian's is better. Too much quality shown in both builds. It is fun for the spectators for sure.
Jim

[Jeff Ranck]

More beautiful with every update! What a wonderful piece.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks for the posts Derek, the grain pattern and match on the first two drawers is fetching :)

Pardon if missed it, but what is your rationale for drawer slips instead of grooved sides?

Enjoy your trip to the UK and stay dry.

Best,
C

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry to cause you such angst, James. :). Now calling my chest "Blaze" might have a similar effect for me! Blaze is tooo ... dramatic. The chest design is full of subtle features. Perhaps "Perversity" may be more appropriate, as these take 10x longer to build. :o

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Christopher

My impression is that furniture in the US has typically over built drawers, using thicker sides than commonly found among (especially) older pieces in Europe and the UK. Quality drawers there have always sought the more elegant thinner sides - which are too thin for grooving, hence drawer slips.

There are essentially two types of slips, one type that end up flush with the drawer bottom (which I have done). To do this requires extra work in rebating. There is even more if details such as a bead are added. I am just a masochist. :) The other type, which I have tended to use in the past, are much less work as simpler (but a more basic), being grooved pieces that are glued to the sides and project above the drawer bottom.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Beautiful! Wondering, what do you have planned for drawer pulls?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

I have some ideas in mind, but will only really know what is sympathetic to the design near the end of the build - this has a long way to go. The drawers are only stage 2, and there are 4 stages in all (the next is the top section, which will house a mirror, and the last will be a jewellery box in the top drawer).

At what point did you decide on the cutouts instead of pulls? And what made you think of a cutout instead of a pull?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Derek. I do agree that thinner drawer sides are more pleasing but had never connected the dots between slips and thickness.

Best,
C

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Brian

I have some ideas in mind, but will only really know what is sympathetic to the design near the end of the build - this has a long way to go. The drawers are only stage 2, and there are 4 stages in all (the next is the top section, which will house a mirror, and the last will be a jewellery box in the top drawer).

At what point did you decide on the cutouts instead of pulls? And what made you think of a cutout instead of a pull?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I had originally planned the cutouts for space constraints in the beginning of the build, then waffled a bit during the progression of the build and finally decided to continue using them.

During the build progress I wanted to ditch the necklace hangers on the doors and build full length pulls, but my Mom insisted that she would use the necklace hangers for very thin necklaces that otherwise have a tendency to get tangled.

I'm curious to see how you go about doing both, I had both in a cabinet that I made for a close friend a few years back but opted not to use them on this build.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

I can see cutouts being necessary as doors limited the space for pulls.

Interesting that we have a common theme, but managed so differently.

Here, the top drawer is essentially a jewellery box. To make this work in a drawer without full extension slides, what I am planning to do is take a leaf out of the book on tool chests, and use sliding trays. These can be situated at the rear of the drawer, and brought to the front, or flip them back-and-forth. Lynndy does not hang her necklaces. I asked her what she wanted, and she prefers a row of compartments. These will fit inside the trays.

The drawer pulls are likely to be curved and laminated for strength. Possibly Ebony or a black-stained wood. This will be picked up in the drawer dividers and the detail on the mirror (that lifts up at the top of the chest). Who knows - I may modify these thoughts before then. At this stage I am just focussed on getting the drawers done - they are very time consuming as each part must be fitted.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

In a similar vein I left off the drawer stops, primarily because I think they can be harsh on the assembly and also because it allows the drawers to be removed from the case and sat on a table, to organize the contents. I'm curious to see how it works out in real life, I saw this done in a jewelry store and thought it was a good way to allow organization of an ever-changing inventory.

I like your thoughts on the sliding trays, I'd probably do something similar for my own purposes since my repertoire does not change much at all over time. So dedicated slots and boxes would be quite useful.

Frankly the most troubling spot for me in the past was finding good looking and well made watch pillows, not the fluffy kind, but something that can register firmly in an organized tray. The French maker, Elie Bleu, does a very fine job of this but I've yet to find someone making individual parts who can match the quality (I cannot).

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the link to Elie Bleu. I will need to add in something to hold a couple of watches. I will be looking for ideas, but later. I think that we are looking at something similar, so I will be interested to see what you come up with.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I did that for a previous cabinet, I passed on it for this one, since the event drove me a bit crazy. I plan to revisit it for the next one of these, since my wife wants it a bit more organized on the inside.

[Mike Allen1010]

Derek,I always enjoy and learn from your posts. NnnbbvnIMHO the thing I enjoy the most about your builds is the combination of your creative concept and particularly you excellent execution of design elements that initial encounter appear simple, but on further inspection are revealed to require subtle education to achieve the desired result.

Great project. Thanks frosting
Mike

[Chris Hachet]

Very impressive work. Love how the overall design is working out.

[Pat Barry]

Derek, thanks for documenting the drawer design and fabrication. I noticed your use of the washer to determine the depth of the rebate for the front of the Tasmanian oak drawer bottom. Very clever.