Narrowed bandsaw choices, Felder vs Minimax

[Dustin Brown]

I've got my new bandsaw choice down to 2 vendors. Felder or Minimax.

Minimax MM16 - Great saw with a good following from what I've read. Seems about right price wise.
Cons: Smaller wheels, smaller table, no factory available extension tables.

Minimax MM20 - Larger saw with larger table and more throat. Still waiting on pricing.
Cons: No factory available extension tables. Possibly price.

Felder FB 510 - Reported to be a strong saw inline with Minimax, larger wheels, larger table, extension tables. Pricing comparable to Minimax.
Cons: Metric dust ports(adapters available), metric miter slot.

Felder FB 600 - Pretty large saw with a pretty large table, extension tables, and good throat capacity. Got offered a 3 year old new warehouse stock with the current motor installed for a very good price.
Cons: Not sure on any important differences on this model vs current. Metric dust ports and miter slot.

Which way would you guys lean towards? I'm having a hard time, especially not being able to see them before buying. Minimax has a large following, but Felder is reported to make very nice saws. Also a little concerned about what replacement parts and customer support will be like from Felder and Minimax. I just want to make sure I end up with a strong high quality saw that will perform flawlessly with the lowest chance of receiving a bad unit.

Forgot to add, technically I can see the Felders in person, but its a 4 hour drive one way. However, I can pick it up and save on shipping.

[Joe Jensen]

I moved from a Powermatic 14" old iron to a Laguna HD16 to a Felder FB540. The Felder I have is a 21" machine made by ACM. I have been using bandsaws for 30 years. I could count the number of times I used the miter gauge on one hand. I stupidly spent over $100 buying a Powermatic miter gauge for that machine. The Laguna came with one I may have used once, and I again stupidly bought one for the Fedler and I've used it once.

I wouldn't worry about the miter gauge.

I do think a larger machine is worth more. I would not worry about the Felder being new old stock.

[ian maybury]

Those should all be good saws. The MM 16 is smaller, but is one of the new generation heavy duty/extra clearance under the guides 're-saw oriented' US market saws. (the one that started that whole ball rolling) There is i think a new model of the Felder saw out now, an FB 610? Don't know the differences, but it might (?) be a heavier duty upgrade with an eye to extra resaw capability/keeping up with the Jones'/the resaw arms race.

I'm not sure what the reality of the relative performance of these saws is, but on the face of it one factor in a choice like this might be whether your priority is maximum resaw depth capability, or whether the extra table size and reach of a larger saw might also be useful.

Is Agazzani still being sold in the US?

Some of the saws in that size range sold in the US with a mitre slot don't have it in Europe. e.g. my Agazzani NRA 600 which is broadly the Euro market equivalent to the US market B-24 does not have one. They offer re-saw specials in the US now too, or at least did a couple of years ago. I get by on occasional angled cuts by running suitably angled ply sleds (just a piece of ply) against the rip fence, i was in the habit of using my previous saw which had one as a sort of general purpose station for rougher work which could have been done elsewhere.

[Matthew Hills]

I'd seen some notes on the festool owners group about difference between the FB600 and FB610: table tilt, lower blade guard, door locks. None of these would be show-stoppers for me.

I bought an MM16 last year to replace a 14" powermatic. Don't need the full resaw height, but a huge upgrade for cutting.

For my work, I wouldn't have minded a higher table (the MM16 has the lower table common to bandsaws targeting resaw), and I wouldn't have turned down a larger table either. While I don't use it much, I like the table tilt on the MM16, although I've seen some people wish for gears.

You might want to check into blade changes a bit, too. As you noted, the MM16 is generally considered on the small side (e.g., for carbide resaw blades), although some are available. Also, doesn't seem any one set of guides will cover a huge range of blade widths. Same thread on FoG also noted that Felder bandsaws spec a 3/8" blade minimum (expect this may be for their stock guides; haven't checked into other options)

If you want an after-market extenion, believe Aigner can be used with any of these. Not cheap, and seems common for people to build their own. (I still set up temporary work support and run a sled when I work with long pieces)

Matt

[Peter Kelly]

Agazzani still being sold in the US?No and I suspect they aren't coming back. Are they available in EU?

[ian maybury]

I'm only reading from websites and the like Peter, but it looks like they are still on sale as normal as Agazzani. Ney Ltd. the UK dist is still offering them for example, and the previously Italian factory website is live with seemingly mods on e.g. the contact page to take account of the new Panhans/Hokubema ownership showing a German location. They still have a very wide range of bandsaw based machines on offer: http://www.agazzani.it/agazzani-gb/bandsaws/bandsaws.php

The Hokubema site lists only certain models (one of the lighter ranges), and has them branded as Panhans/Hokubema or as a dual Panhans/Hokubema and Agazzani brand: http://www.panhans.de/pan_en/index.php/machines/band-saws/bandsaegemaschine Which might or might not suggest an intention to retain the Agazzani brand. The other big question might be here they are/will be built - the factory was in Italy.

You probably know more than me regarding the US. Eagle Tools still lists Agazzani on their website but with no further information http://www.eagle-tools.com , while Google brings up one or two companies offering specific (usually lighter) models. Eagle were offering a US market resaw optimised line, but it doesn't seem to have made it on to any of the sites i've seen.

It has the feel of a scenario where maybe the business was bought, and the new owners are sorting out how to integrate it with their own business, and how to proceed. The US is such a big market that it's hard not to think that they will want to stay there, but who knows. A call to Eagle Tools would be very interesting, they were very highly regarded and spoken of almost in awe by the bandsaw types here a few years ago when Agazzani had a higher profile….

[Peter Kelly]

You probably know more than me regarding the US. Eagle Tools still lists Agazzani on their website but with no further information http://www.eagle-tools.com , while Google brings up one or two companies offering specific (usually lighter) models. Eagle were offering a US market resaw optimised line, but it doesn't seem to have made it on to any of the sites i've seen.Last I saw at Eagle Tool they're a Laguna dealer and only have a handful of original Italian-made Agazzani machines that aren't for sale. That website hasn't been updated in many years.

[Dustin Brown]

Thanks for the info. I am leaning heavily towards the FB600, but I still have a few reservations about it. Still waiting on pricing for the MM20 so I don't know if its even a contender. I really want a saw with a large table and a strong frame, just all around high quality.

I'm not sure exactly where and how the FB600 is made, I know the rep said the tag on the saw had 2012 on it. I've read the new series FB510 and 610 frames are made in china, then Felder finishes up the manufacturing. I don't know how true this is. I also read the motor is made by ATB.

The rep also stated that the only differences between the FB600 and FB610 are the paint and the motor, which this saw he has had the motor replaced with the new one. Still trying to find more details.

What I really want to know is the quality of construction and how strong the frame is, I don't want any deflection or setup problems. Needs to run a 1" resaw king without breaking a sweat. Planning to start using a bandsaw for a lot more things than the table saw. Unless I can find people that can attest to the quality of the 2012 model, I may need to just drive over and look at it. If I don't like it I guess I'm only out 10 hours of my day and $200 in gas, if I do like it I can return with it on the trailer.

[Erik Loza]

....As you noted, the MM16 is generally considered on the small side (e.g., for carbide resaw blades), although some are available. Also, doesn't seem any one set of guides will cover a huge range of blade widths....

Matt, I can guarantee that folks won't have any issues running a Lenox Tri-master or Woodmaster CT on an S400P (MM16). Have sold literally hundreds of those over the years and have yet to have a single incidence of gullet cracking, which is what the complaint apparently used to be about. Bad weld from time to time but no actual broken blades from that diameter of flywheel.

Regarding the guides, my recommendation on the stock guides (be they Euro's or the Carter Zefyrs) is 1/2" or greater and if you need to go thinner, something like the Carter Stabilizer. I have personally used a 1/4" blade on the MM16 and while it worked adequately, getting the blade tension right can be challenging due to the long span of blade between the wheels on these tall-resaw machines. If the owner plans to use a 1/4" blade a lot, it might make more sense to just get a smaller bandsaw and set it up, dedicated to that.


...If you want an after-market extenion, believe Aigner can be used with any of these. Not cheap, and seems common for people to build their own. (I still set up temporary work support and run a sled when I work with long pieces)...

+1 for the Aigner tables. Some of the best money you can spend. For any machine, in fact. Or, as you mentioned, just roll up a table and clamp it from underneath...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/AignerTableMounting2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/BSStraightline016.jpg

Erik

[Susumu Mori]

I have FB510. Nice saw, but never used MM saws. So I can't compare.
The extension wind is very useful. I have one. Two would be ever nicer.
Another plus is the ceramic guide option you can buy from Felder with about $250. Performance wise, may not be much different from the regular Euro guides, but set up is way easier. As many experts in this forum have suggested, the thrust guide is not very important because the blade usually doesn't touch it. I use it just to inform me that I'm pushing the blade too much. The side guides are useful because it prevent the blade to deflect right or left as it is pushed. To adjust the ceramic guide, you need to gently pinch the blade and that's it. Euro side guides have much more moving parts....

[Dustin Brown]

Any issues with the 1" laguna resaw king? Also, is that the MM20/S500P in those pics?


Matt, I can guarantee that folks won't have any issues running a Lenox Tri-master or Woodmaster CT on an S400P (MM16). Have sold literally hundreds of those over the years and have yet to have a single incidence of gullet cracking, which is what the complaint apparently used to be about. Bad weld from time to time but no actual broken blades from that diameter of flywheel.

Regarding the guides, my recommendation on the stock guides (be they Euro's or the Carter Zefyrs) is 1/2" or greater and if you need to go thinner, something like the Carter Stabilizer. I have personally used a 1/4" blade on the MM16 and while it worked adequately, getting the blade tension right can be challenging due to the long span of blade between the wheels on these tall-resaw machines. If the owner plans to use a 1/4" blade a lot, it might make more sense to just get a smaller bandsaw and set it up, dedicated to that.



+1 for the Aigner tables. Some of the best money you can spend. For any machine, in fact. Or, as you mentioned, just roll up a table and clamp it from underneath...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/AignerTableMounting2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/BSStraightline016.jpg

Erik

[Erik Loza]

....As many experts in this forum have suggested, the thrust guide is not very important because the blade usually doesn't touch it. I use it just to inform me that I'm pushing the blade too much. The side guides are useful because it prevent the blade to deflect right or left as it is pushed...

When I am setting up a new MM bandsaw for straightline cutting (but not for curved cutting with a thin blade), I set the guides so that they never touch the blade during the cut. On this level of machine (any of the Euro bandsaws, in fact...), it should be blade tension and tracking that do the work, not the guides. The guides are just there to prevent excessive over-travel. I have had a lot more guys actually create problems for themselves by trying to "affect" the performance of the blade by allowing the guides to touch than the other way around. Burned thrsut bearings, that sort of thing.


Any issues with the 1" laguna resaw king? Also, is that the MM20/S500P in those pics?

Never used an RK blade personally, so I'm probably not the one to give you a firm answer but my understanding is that they have a much thinner band than the Lenox' do and if that is the case, I see no reason why not. Oh, that's an older MM24 by the way.

Erik

[Keith Outten]

I purchased an FB 610 a couple years ago. All of the saws on your list are excellent machines based on the number of people here who are satisfied customers. One of my reasons for choosing Felder was that I could drive to their location and pick up my new saw. There have been so many people here who have reported serious shipping damage with large machines I did not want to take the chance, particularly with a band saw.

I purchased a 1" Lennox saw blade, it was expensive in my opinion but worth every penny once I started using it.
.

[Erik Loza]

All Minimax bandsaws are shipped lying down horizontally on their spines, on a long pallet, and screwed to a wooden "cradle" with big lag screws. Prior to 2006 or so, we shipped them all standing upright and it was indeed always somewhat of a crapshoot as to whether or not the machine would arrive at the customer's location standing up (or worse, it fell down at some point and the freight company stood it back and and tried to pretend like nothing happened, LOL). Nowadays, I cannot remember the last time we issued a freight claim on a bandsaw.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

....I (DO) know that they were produced in the same Factory as my Centauro and Minimax Bandsaws...

Cyril, I can 100% guarantee that Centauro is not building bandsaws for anyone besides Minimax.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I know that Centauro and ACM are located near each other but did not think they were related in any way. ACM made or makes at least two series. Felder sold the heavier in the 540,640,740 series. Centauro builds heavy saws labeled 500,600,700 etc. There can be some modifications for each private label but I have not heard there is any downward build other than the lighter ACM 400,500,600 series. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

I'm fairly certain that SCM and ACM are separate companies.

[Erik Loza]

What Dave said...

Over the years, I've had folks tell me that Minimax and Laguna saws were made in the same plant, that Agazzani made Minimax's bandsaws, and that Minimax saws were made in China. None of which are true. Part of the issue is that Italian bandsaw manufacturing companies typically have non-existent websites and to further complicate things, I think that many times, dealers themselves may not be totally informed about this sort of thing because while bandsaws might be a huge investment for you or me, they are really an just an accessory or low priority item for most machinery dealers. "It's a bandsaw and cuts wood. What else matters?", is an answer I have heard before. So, urban myths tend to create their own life.

Erik

[Cyril Thompson]

Hi Peter

The owner of the company that I have bought 3 new SCM machines from said to me last year that they are sister companies I was just going off what he told me so who knows. He also said that the Felder FB 840 that he took in part exchange was produced by ACM for Felder. After I bought the Felder It was so much trouble that Felder sent a technician out and he did confirm that it was built in Italy although he did not say by who.

[ian maybury]

There seems to be an increasingly Chinese dimension to these band saw sourcing questions, but i suspect too that the waters are considerably muddied by the Italian tradition of highly co-operative networked subcontracting.

It was made famous back in the 80s and early 90s in some management studies of the sunglass industry. There basically tends to be a top level business that owns the brand, and markets the product - they may also handle final assembly. Then a whole (typically regional) network of highly specialised often very small businesses (even mom and pop shops) that specialise in the production of a single part or group of parts on a just in time basis. The glue that holds the whole lot togther is a very highly developed sense of mutual trust and obligation - this is also the basis of their often very low costs and high levels of efficiency.

Trust and goodwill based business relationships enable minimal paperwork, rules, bureaucracy, management, shared assets, and maximise flexibility, motivation, productivity etc - all the stuff that costs big time in the hierarchical authoritarian corporate model.

It seems pretty much unarguable that the same or at least very similar parts often turn up most Italian band saws regardless of the brand. My guess is that this may be a good part of the why...

[Bill Adamsen]

My larger bandsaw is 30 +/- year old (mid 1980s) Centauro, which paint aside, looks identical to the photo of the Minimax posted by Erik. It is extremely versatile, runs daily and cuts beautifully. Though mine is one of the smaller Centauros (Steel 700 series), it is still big ... and challenging to move due to weight and height ... that can be a good thing or bad. Being slightly smaller, either the MM16 or MM20 , would be to my thinking, a pretty ideal combination. Good resaw, good blade tension. I can definitely recommend the Minimax/Centauro machines. I have no experience with the Felder machines.

[Erik Loza]

...The owner of the company that I have bought 3 new SCM machines from said to me last year that they are sister companies...

Cyril, ACM and SCM Group/Minimax have no professional partnership that I am aware of. In fact, I can guarantee it. I'm sure that SCM Group would like probably buy ACM if they could. Minimax sources the "Professional" series (S400P, S500P, etc.) from Centauro and then builds the S45N in-house, same production line as the combined machines and that sort of thing. There is lots of confusion and misinformation out there, from hobbyists as well as dealers, about the true origins of Italian (or any European, to be totally honest...) machinery and you really need to be actively in the industry to keep up to speed with all that.


There seems to be an increasingly Chinese dimension to these band saw sourcing questions... It seems pretty much unarguable that the same or at least very similar parts often turn up most Italian band saws regardless of the brand. My guess is that this may be a good part of the why...

The only Asian parts I have ever seen on any Minimax bandsaw were Korean-made wheel bearings and then Chinese-made AEG switches. Never had any issues with the bearings, just happened to notice that while I was re-installing an upper wheel once. The AEG switches, we did have issues with, then discontinued using them for that reason. AEG went to China with them, without notifying Centauro or Minimax. We actually use Eaton switches now.

I can tell you that Centauro saws are still made 100% in Italy, as is the Minimax S45N. The most expensive material cost of any machine is typically the iron castings and both Centauro and SCM have their own iron foundries, so do not have a need to go elsewhere. Still cheaper to build in-house than outsource. Typically, if a European mfr. needs to start outsourcing tings to stay competitive, it's because they don't have their own foundries and as you can imagine, buying and paying for shipping on EU-cast iron is not cheap if you can't do it yourself.

Erik

[Dustin Brown]

Well I'm more confused now than I was when I started. I appreciate all the insight and suggestions.

I was almost sold on the minimax s400p but there are a few negatives that keep me from going for it, mainly the table size. I was ready to go for a MM20 but it's just slightly above my maximum budget and I can't justify going much over my budget for something that's not perfect. Not considering what that price is and seeing that most people are still buying aftermarket fences and guides. Maybe I just have unrealistic expectations?

Since I'm in a higher price range I was going to start looking at the Laguna Italian 18HD, anyone have any experience with them?

[David Kumm]

LT 18 HD is an Italian ACM. Whatever applied to the Felder 540, applies to the 18. It is heavier than the old ACM 440 but not as heavy as the MM20. The bandsaw market is pretty mature. You are unlikely to find a model that gives you more for less cost. Save up and buy what you want and need. If you absolutely need more than you can afford new, look at used. There are bargains there that beat buying less than what you feel you need. Dave

[David Eisenhauer]

I own one of the saws you are considering and it is (and always has been) rock solid. I haven't used any of the others, so it does not matter which I have. I jumped in to echo what Mr. Kumm just said. Save up for what you want if you are just shy of the $. Considering the quality of the saws, you will keep the saw and use the devil out of it if you want to for your entire lifetime and it may as well be what you want from the get go.

[Cyril Thompson]

Erik, I think you are in a better position to know who owns who in the machinery market so I take what you say as reliable. My point of view has always been that you get what you pay for so I have always gone for the best I can afford and that is why I chose Felder. After speaking to them at a woodworking machinery show I ordered the FB 740 which I was told was manufactured in Austria and was the perfect machine for what I wanted to do (cut large timber) when it arrived It had a smaller motor than the one stated so after a visit from a technician it was exchanged for the FB 840 which when it arrived had metal filings and a Italian made screwdriver inside the base, It was poorly finished and I should have sent it back but by this time I was desperate to get sawing again so kept it. After costing me a fortune in timber I decided to exchange it for a Centauro R800 Resaw and have since purchased Minimax S600p bandsaw, I can't tell you how pleased I am with both. I have owned quite a few bandsaws in my lifetime but I can honestly say that these are the best I have had. I may have just been unlucky with my Felder bandsaws as I know a lot of people rate them but the 2 I had were complete rubbish and I was very disappointed after listening to all the bull at the machinery show about how all things Felder are produced in Austria.

Cyril

[Steve Wilde]

Erik,
Where is this photo of the curved leg? I made a bed with a similar leg on it and was wondering how to make that cut. I jointed one side straight, and then my crazy uncle put it through the table saw! Scariest thing I've ever seen done on a tablesaw!