Skewed Rabbet Plane vs. Shoulder Plane

[Chuck Hart]

I have been looking at getting a shoulder plane but I really want a skewed rabbet plane at LV. I think the rabbet plane would find more uses in my shop but am I giving up some of the things a shoulder plane would give me? Another thing is the rabbet plane is almost $50 more than the shoulder plane. Should I just grin and bear it or am I missing something here? What do you guys think? :confused:

[Kent A Bathurst]

IMO - two different critters. Shoulder plane is exactly that - a plane for shoulders on tenons. The skewed rabbet can do a various tasks - but cannot, from my way of thinking , do the job of a shoulder plane on shoulders - that is the perfect tool for that task.

THe only solution: one of each. :p

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the time my shoulder plane is used for fine tuning after my rabbet plane.

I have started to do more mortice and tenon joints but the shoulder plane isn't used there as much as a sharp chisel.

Today my work included four cross grain rabbets. Only one of them needed about four shavings removed with the shoulder plane. There were other wasy it could have been done, the shoulder plane was the easiest and most convenient.

My vote would be to get the skew rabbet plane first. If possible, both the left and right hand version with a set of the long rods.

Of course if you do more mortise and tenon work and do not cut many rabbets then you may have a situation the opposite of mine.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ah-HAAAA! I beat Jim to the punch. My typing must be getting faster!! :p

[Don Slaughter]

Once you have and use the shoulder plane you will be glad you bought it. It brings a degree of confidence to making mortise & tenon joints tight. You'll also find other uses for it as well. BUT.....I bought the LN skewed rabbet plane and....it is a fantastic little tool IMHO. I made boxes for all my special tools with it the first few days I owned it. Even so, the shoulder plane can't be beat for truing shoulders and tenon cheeks.
good luck.

Don

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have and use both types of planes, however, I use my shoulder plane far more (of the shoulder planes I have, I use the LN large more). I have several rabbet planes and the LV skewed is the nicest to use, however, my Stanley 78 can work almost just as well, and they're dirt cheap.

[Warren Mickley]

Back around 1980 a shoulder rabbet plane was around fourth on my list of tools to buy. Somehow it never made it to the top of the list and then was forgotten. I do have a wooden rabbet plane, a more traditional plane which is more comfortable to use, especially when removing any significant amount. I use a tenon saw for cutting tenon shoulders.

A fenced rabbet (moving fillister) is much more helpful in expanding your capabilities because you can set the tool to make a specific rabbet and start the rabbet without a lot of rigmarole. The moving fillister can be used as a regular rabet plane if the fence and depth stop are removed, much more versatils and capable.

[Frederick Skelly]

IMO - two different critters. Shoulder plane is exactly that - a plane for shoulders on tenons. The skewed rabbet can do a various tasks - but cannot, from my way of thinking , do the job of a shoulder plane on shoulders - that is the perfect tool for that task.

THe only solution: one of each. :p

+1. I have both, from LV. Nice tools, used regularly.

[Jim Matthews]

The chief advantage of the skew it to keep the blade tight against the workpiece
when the leading edge of the plane touches the surface first.

That may not be possible when cutting end grain.


In my opinion (as an admitted hack amateur) you can get as good or better results
with a properly set up shoulder plane and sharp marking knife.

Remember that for a shoulder plane to work properly, the edge being cut
must have part of the blade in contact with it. If the blade doesn't protrude
enough to cut the side of the shoulder, it will form a step and progressively
push the cut away from the desired line.

That can easily be corrected on a rabbet, tenon or other exposed part.

The blade must have enough width to clear both sides of the body
(as do the excellent LV and LN offerings when new) to cut a clean dado.

Search Matt Bickford and Larry Williams on how to sharpen this blade.
It isn't as simple as it appears.

[Derek Cohen]

A shoulder plane sets up with a fine mouth and capable of fine shavings. It may also be used with a wide mouth for thick shavings. This is a plane to be used on tenon shoulders, where very fine corrections need to be made (on more coarse corrections I use a chisel into a knifed line). Much of the time one gets it right or close to right off a saw, but the shoulder plane is useful when you do not. It is also useful when cleaning up/squaring a rebate. A coarser setting can be made if much waste is to be removed. And then it will take wispy shavings when doing detail work.

The rebate plane is for coarse shavings only. It has a wide mouth and removes a lot of waste rapidly. It is designed for working face grain and not easy to use on end grain, such as tenon shoulders.

A shoulder plane can do the work of a rebate plane, but a rebate plane will make heavy work of a shoulder.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Berlin]

I had a should plane once. Sold it as I never used it. I find that I tune tenons with my router plane, and sometimes my skewed rabetting block plane from lee valley. The shoulder plane just never got much use. Shoulders get trimmed to the knife wall with a sharp chisel. The rabbet plane however gets used quite often because its a set it up, run it until it stops, tool. When it stops cutting, you're done. Sometimes it requires some tuning after, but generally theyre good to go. In a hand tool workshop, I wouldn't be without one. Shoulder plane, I can live without.

[Patrick Harper]

I've found that I just don't use my shoulder plane very much. It's a nice to have for rabbet and dado cleanup, but I never use it on shoulders. I prefer to use a chisel and slightly undercut the shoulders.

[Mike Henderson]

I've found that I just don't use my shoulder plane very much. It's a nice to have for rabbet and dado cleanup, but I never use it on shoulders. I prefer to use a chisel and slightly undercut the shoulders.
I have the LV medium shoulder plane but I rarely use it for shoulders - I usually use a chisel like Patrick. But I do use it for many other things.

One suggestion - for cost reasons, why not consider a Stanley 78 plane. They're a heck of a lot less expensive. If you find that you're using it a lot and want a better rabbet plane, then buy the LV and sell the Stanley. If you buy the Stanley used, you probably will be able to sell it for about what you paid for it. That LV is a lot of money.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

I have the medium shoulder plane, buy I never use it. Shoulders get trimmed with a chisel. The tenon sides are trimmed with a router plane.

I have a 78 that never gets used. Maybe I will post it in the classifieds.

[Chuck Hart]

Hi Mike,
I have a Record 78 that is almost identical to the Stanley. I spent some time getting the nicker to work on it but I just can not get the blade aligned to cut a straight line in the path of the nicker. I can get it straight to the mouth and adjusted depth wise but I can't get a consistent cut. This is what prompted the search for a shoulder/rabbet plane. As far as tuning up a tenon I would rather use a router plane because I have great control over the cut. I have a bookcase project coming up for my wife and wanted to use rabbet's for the top and the back. I am going to use a router plane/chisel for the shelf dado's since they are going into 3/4 sides I don't want them to be deeper than 1/4 or 3/8 at the most. The shoulder plane works for the rabbet's I just thought I would try to get two tools in one purchase with the skewed rabbet plane...

Chuck

[Chuck Hart]

I think I will just buy both. I picked up a shoulder plane today and I think I will order the rabbet tomorrow. Thanks for your comments guys

[Simon MacGowen]

You made a great decision of getting both. Your 78 story is a common one. People who advise a fellow woodworker based on their experience with the old tools to get a cheaper Stanley, of course, have good intentions. However, many old Stanley planes that are cheap out there need much work before they can perform close to a new plane (whether it is Veritas or LN). Paul Sellers refurbishes a lot of old tools he gets from eBay and advises people to buy old tools, too. But many woodworkers going into handwork may not have the skills or the time to fix a bad tool.

A cheap tool often is not cheap if we budget in the labor and time we put in getting it to good shape. Unless one enjoys fixing or making (tools), one is better off getting a new tool from a proven source -- which Veritas is.

Shoulder plane or skew rabbet plane? The choice is like having just the slot screwdriver or the Phillips. We probably are better off having both.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Mike,
I have a Record 78 that is almost identical to the Stanley. I spent some time getting the nicker to work on it but I just can not get the blade aligned to cut a straight line in the path of the nicker. I can get it straight to the mouth and adjusted depth wise but I can't get a consistent cut. This is what prompted the search for a shoulder/rabbet plane.

[edited for clarity]

Chuck

My main rabbet plane is a Record 778. I gave up on using the nicker awhile ago.

For aligning the blade the plane is set on its side and pressed with the lever cap at normal tightness. Another consideration is the edge of the blade should have a slight angle and the meeting of the edge and forward facing surface of the blade should be somewhat sharp. This is the relief angle for clearance along the side.

Instead of relying on a nicker a knifed edge seems to work better for me.

Some cross grain rabbets were on my to do list today. The work was photographed and my intent is to start a new thread so as to not hi-jack this one.

May have to wait until after dinner.

jtk

[Chuck Hart]

My main rabbet plane is a Record 778. I gave up on using the nicker awhile ago.

For aligning the blade the plane is set on its side and pressed with the lever cap at normal tightness. Another consideration is the edge of the blade should have a slight angle and the meeting of the edge and forward facing surface of the blade should be somewhat sharp. This is the relief angle for clearance along the side.

Instead of relying on a nicker a knifed edge seems to work better for me.

Some cross grain rabbets were on my to do list today. The work was photographed and my intent is to start a new thread so as to not hi-jack this one.

May have to wait until after dinner.

jtk

Thanks Jim I forgot about setting the plane on its side to flush the blade to a level surface. It still means you need to have a small corner of the blade to clear the side wall of the rabbet. too many things to remember at one time. I have trouble remembering why I went into the shop.

[Jim Koepke]

It still means you need to have a small corner of the blade to clear the side wall of the rabbet.

In my experience pressing the plane on its side leaves a hair of the blade proud of the side of the plane.

Now that dinner and entertainment are over I'll get to work on a new thread.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks Jim I forgot about setting the plane on its side to flush the blade to a level surface. It still means you need to have a small corner of the blade to clear the side wall of the rabbet. too many things to remember at one time. I have trouble remembering why I went into the shop.

For making a rabbet (with the grain), the blade has to stick out beyond the side of the plane a small amount for clearance. If you had a perfectly flat side that was perfectly aligned with the blade there would be trouble as soon as the corner of the blade (which is somewhat vulnerable) dulls.

For making a cross grain rabbet there must be clearance between the spur and the blade so the blade does not rub against the side wall of the rabbet. The blade can be a bit in from the spur, but the spur must be outermost.

So for with the grain blade outermost; for cross grain spur outermost.

[Robert Engel]

I disremembered using a chisel! I watched Phillip Rowe do this to pare the shoulders once.

Is this more accurate than using a shoulder plane?

I'm in the middle of a cabinet project doors and I've been paring the shoulders with a shoulder plane but I'm gonna try the chisel route.
Some times if I'm not careful I get the shoulders out of alignment. Plus I guess you can pare a slight backbevel with a chisel.

I have a LV medium. Got the large and sent it back. Now I wish I had the large.
I, too also use a 78 but only for paring cheeks on large tenons.

Thanks for reminding me about the chisel technique!

[Derek Cohen]

I disremembered using a chisel! I watched Phillip Rowe do this to pare the shoulders once.

Is this more accurate than using a shoulder plane?

Robert, I commented on this earlier. Perhaps I need to clarify methods. Others can comment and agree/disagree/modify - it's useful information for technique building.

1. Firstly, knife the shoulder lines, undercut with a chisel or knife to create a fence for the saw, and saw the shoulders. If your workpiece is square/parallel, then you should have no need for any other work.

2. If you do not saw flush against the fence, you will leave a slight line. This needs to be removed. What I do is place a steel square against the knife line from the reference side of the stretcher. I will then use a sharp knife along the steel edge to slice away the waste. This works if the amount of waste present is small and lines are clear. It also depends on how hard the wood is - it will not work if the waste is too wide to slice away.

3. If there is "thick" waste, such that the knifed line stands out, then take a wide chisel, insert it into the line, and push down. I do not attempt to undercut at this point. Walk the chisel along the shoulder line.

4. If the line remaining is very faint and difficult to see, you can either attempt to use a knife along the steel square as before, or bring the shoulder plane into play. The shoulder plane is set for a very fine shaving to trim away the excess. The shoulder plane enables one to take a shaving, test the fit, take another shaving, etc.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

I disremembered using a chisel! I watched Phillip Rowe do this to pare the shoulders once.

Is this more accurate than using a shoulder plane?


I'm a big fan of this technique. Phil Lowe has a good article, I think it's called "5 chisel tricks" or something like that, where he shows this technique.

I would not say it is more accurate than using a shoulder plane; I think it takes more skill and is easier to mess up. But for sure it is faster, and doesn't require another expensive tool.

I have two shoulder planes. I haven't picked up either in a couple years, and it's only inertia and sentimentality that keeps me from selling them.

[Jim Koepke]

Robert, I commented on this earlier. Perhaps I need to clarify methods. Others can comment and agree/disagree/modify - it's useful information for technique building.

1. Firstly, knife the shoulder lines, undercut with a chisel or knife to create a fence for the saw, and saw the shoulders. If your workpiece is square/parallel, then you should have no need for any other work.

2. If you do not saw flush against the fence, you will leave a slight line. This needs to be removed. What I do is place a steel square against the knife line from the reference side of the stretcher. I will then use a sharp knife along the steel edge to slice away the waste. This works if the amount of waste present is small and lines are clear. It also depends on how hard the wood is - it will not work if the waste is too wide to slice away.

3. If there is "thick" waste, such that the knifed line stands out, then take a wide chisel, insert it into the line, and push down. I do not attempt to undercut at this point. Walk the chisel along the shoulder line.

4. If the line remaining is very faint and difficult to see, you can either attempt to use a knife along the steel square as before, or bring the shoulder plane into play. The shoulder plane is set for a very fine shaving to trim away the excess. The shoulder plane enables one to take a shaving, test the fit, take another shaving, etc.

Regards from Perth

Derek


This is a good example of why there isn't just one way or tool that is best for any particular task. Sometimes the same task has different parameters.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have both the LN skewed block plane and the LN rabbet block plane. I find the rabbet plane preferable for dressing tenon sides.

Having said that, my large rabbet plane is used more than either of the other planes for tenons.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe we could have a new thread just for a rabbet family of planes.

Kind of like what Steven did with "show us your smoothers" awhile back.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Lowell, I think I misread too; he's talking about the skew rabbet plane - not the skew block rabbet plane.

[Brian Holcombe]

A lot of this comes down to what you build, I have a lot of projects with exposed joinery and so I find myself shoring up a lot of things because of that, stuff that otherwise might not be critical to have exactly perfect. Also, I do a lot of wedged tenons and it is best to have perfectly trimmed tenons with those.

I have one shoulder plane (LN large sized) and I'm glad I have it, it is still quite handy for bigger joinery even though I dont find myself using it for small tenons.

[lowell holmes]

Lowell, I think I misread too; he's talking about the skew rabbet plane - not the skew block rabbet plane.
I also have a left and right hand skew rabbet planes from LV. I wouldn't use them to dress tenon sides. I was taught that 1" bench chisels were what to use.

I will use a large router plane to define the tenon and trim it with a chisel. I mispoke in another post where I rabbet plane.

[lowell holmes]

I think I will just buy both. I picked up a shoulder plane today and I think I will order the rabbet tomorrow. Thanks for your comments guys

Spoken in the true spirit of the members of this group.:)