Festool Domino DF 500

[Richard Carner]

I apologize in advance if this topic has come up before. I'm about ready to spring for a DF 500. I have 'concluded' that it would be a much more versatile machine re: case goods, etc. As long as I am fanning out the money, I am also pondering whether to go ahead and purchase the $295 assorted Domino Beach Sustainer Kit. The various size bits alone cost @$200. My main concern is whether or not [2] 4mm x 10mm tenons will be robust enough when applied to an apron/table leg combo. I have two tables to build - @64" long x 35" wide. Anyone have any experiences using the largest tenons for table construction? I'm really reluctant to spring for the larger XL. TIA.

[Prashun Patel]

I have owned both. I recently sold my DF500 in favor of the DF700.

I made a couple tables with the largest (10mm) tenons that the DF500 made. They were fine. Where the DF700 excels is in the ability to make deeper tenons than the DF500 can. It is also a little more stable in the vertical position (like when making tenons in the middle of a panel) than is the DF500.

The DF700 has a larger offset capability than the DF500, but the DF500 has dovetailed plastic stops that can actually be removed which allow the vertical offset fence to be moved more than the factory max depth setting, so there is a workaround.

I find the DF700 is more stable and marginally less prone to move when drilling than is the DF500. But this is splitting hairs; the DF500 is amazing; you just have to concentrate and hold it tight.

You can always drill your mortises with the DF500 at the widest setting and make your own tenons. Multiple, wide, parallel 10mm mortises will be pretty darn strong for many applications.

To this end, I would make my own tenons. They are easy to do and can be made with scrap. You just have to develop a reliable system for it so you can mill and bevel or round them over consistently. I tend to true mine up with a handplane for a perfect fit.

Instead of buying a $200 systainer and assorted tenons that you may never use, I would instead buy a good hose and adapter so you can dust collect properly. This is a must for accurate mortises.

Last, you can purchase the CMT cutters for 1/2 price of the Festool ones. Check AMZN.

[Richard Carner]

I have owned both. I recently sold my DF500 in favor of the DF700.

I made a couple tables with the largest (10mm) tenons that the DF500 made. They were fine. Where the DF700 excels is in the ability to make deeper tenons than the DF500 can. It is also a little more stable in the vertical position (like when making tenons in the middle of a panel) than is the DF500.

Yes I have heard that the platform the 700 has is much for stable thus the cuts are less prone to error. Your name is familiar so perhaps you were the one I recall mentioning this.


The DF700 has a larger offset capability than the DF500, but the DF500 has dovetailed plastic stops that can actually be removed which allow the vertical offset fence to be moved more than the factory max depth setting, so there is a workaround.

I find the DF700 is more stable and marginally less prone to move when drilling than is the DF500. But this is splitting hairs; the DF500 is amazing; you just have to concentrate and hold it tight.

Understood.


You can always drill your mortises with the DF500 at the widest setting and make your own tenons. Multiple, wide, parallel 10mm mortises will be pretty darn strong for many applications.

To this end, I would make my own tenons. They are easy to do and can be made with scrap. You just have to develop a reliable system for it so you can mill and bevel or round them over consistently. I tend to true mine up with a handplane for a perfect fit.

Yes this is appealing to me. After all we are woodworkers and fabricators! Do you still use birch or some alternative wood for fabricating your tenons? As well, do you bother to score the sides of each tenon?


Instead of buying a $200 systainer and assorted tenons that you may never use, I would instead buy a good hose and adapter so you can dust collect properly. This is a must for accurate mortises.

This is valuable advice that I will heed. I have been considering the CT MIDI Dust Extractor. However like most Festool equipment it is a bit pricing weighing at @$525. Would you perhaps suggest an alternative?



Last, you can purchase the CMT cutters for 1/2 price of the Festool ones. Check AMZN.

Ah... Thanks for that tip. Aside from several other questions that I raised within your quotes, I have this one: Isn't the 700 'limited' to stock that is 3/4" and wider? TIA

[James Zhu]

You can use shop vac with the domino, this Bosch hose ( http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-VAC005-5-Meter-Vacuum-Hose/dp/B0000AV78B/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430237304&sr=8-1&keywords=Bosch+VAC005 ) fits the domino.

Paul Marcel did a very good comparison between 500 and 700.

http://www.halfinchshy.com/search/label/Domino%20XL%20%28Domizilla%29

[Prashun Patel]

The Festool or Fein dust extractors are supposed to be top notch. I however, own a Ridgid shop vac and Dust Deputy, which I highly recommend. These 'preseparating' solutions keep the filters on your shopvac clean and therefore the suction up. The only downside is that they can be tippy, so you'll have to make some kind of reliable stand for it. Moving the two pieces (shopvac and preseparator) can be a pain, but the performance boost is IMHO worth it. I have 2 such set ups.

I make my tenons out of beech because I have extra stock. It's my prejudice that ash, oak, and beech make strong tenons. However, I will say that I 'cheat' sometimes and make them from walnut or cherry scraps if my project is daintier and doesn't need the insurance.

I am uncertain if the DF700 is limited to 3/4". The only stuff I'm doing < 3/4" tends to be cases, boxes or drawers for which I use some other means of connecting.

You can use this hose:
PORTER-CABLE 73333

[Jim German]

I got the domino assortment in the systainer, partly because its nice to have everything in the systainers and because of the cost of the bits. I've found that having an assortment of dominos meant that I used them in situations I wouldn't have otherwise if I had to make the domino or go out and specially buy one.

[Matt Krusen]

I bought the Domino assortment as well. Granted, I didn't know about the CMT bits but even so I still would have bought it. Like Jim said, I find myself using Dominos more than I normally would just because I have the assorted sizes available. Also, my shop time is limited so for me it is worth the cost to buy the pre made Dominos. With regards to 500 vs 700, think long term what type of projects you'll be doing most often. The 500 will work for tables, in fact I am using it for a huge farm table coming up soon. The 500 is also the right size for more "normal" sized projects such as casework, shelves, dressers, small tables etc. However, if you will be doing a lot of big tables, beds, etc then the 700 is probably the way to go. Whichever you decide, the Domino is a game changer and you'll never regret your purchase!

[Chris Padilla]

I dunno about making one's own tenons. It is pretty nice and fast to just open the box and pull out what you want and get going on the project. I would have to set up my router table (which is likely set up with something else) and futz with it to get my tenons just right but each to their own. I have the DF500 from way back when and it has replaced quite a few tools in my shop. I use it for darn near everything. And when Festool came out with the 4 mm cutter/tenons, I jumped for joy as I used those A LOT now. I don't really make anything large enough to need tenons any larger than what the 500 can handle. I did make a large cedar gate once but I cut my own mortises with the router table and made my own tenons for that project but that has been it for the need so far. :)

[Richard Carner]

The Festool or Fein dust extractors are supposed to be top notch. I however, own a Ridgid shop vac and Dust Deputy, which I highly recommend. These 'preseparating' solutions keep the filters on your shopvac clean and therefore the suction up. The only downside is that they can be tippy, so you'll have to make some kind of reliable stand for it. Moving the two pieces (shopvac and preseparator) can be a pain, but the performance boost is IMHO worth it. I have 2 such set ups.

I make my tenons out of beech because I have extra stock. It's my prejudice that ash, oak, and beech make strong tenons. However, I will say that I 'cheat' sometimes and make them from walnut or cherry scraps if my project is daintier and doesn't need the insurance.

I am uncertain if the DF700 is limited to 3/4". The only stuff I'm doing < 3/4" tends to be cases, boxes or drawers for which I use some other means of connecting.

You can use this hose:
PORTER-CABLE 73333



Okay Prashun,
Thanks for all of these additional tidbits. I did just find out that one can have the best of both worlds. As it turns out Seneca Woodworking has made a nifty adapter for the 700 that will allow the person to use insert cutting bits from 4mm/5mm/6mm/8mm/10mm! Festools carries this adapter on their company site. https://www.festoolproducts.com/Seneca-Woodworking-RTS-500-Cutter-Adapter-for-Fest-p/rts-500-cutter-adapter-for-fes.htm Based on this news, I think I will take the plunge and purchase the 700.

[Wade Lippman]

I rarely use 10mm, I doubt I would ever use anything larger. The 500 is a handful, glad I don't have the 700. YMMV.
I have made my own dominoes, but when Festool's are perfect and not terribly expensive, I never did it again. YMMV
I have a dyson canister vacuum with a dust deputy. Seems like a perfect combination to me.

[Richard Carner]

You can use shop vac with the domino, this Bosch hose ( http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-VAC005-5-Meter-Vacuum-Hose/dp/B0000AV78B/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430237304&sr=8-1&keywords=Bosch+VAC005 ) fits the domino.

Paul Marcel did a very good comparison between 500 and 700.

http://www.halfinchshy.com/search/label/Domino%20XL%20%28Domizilla%29

Thanks James. I'm on it.

[Richard Carner]

Thanks Jim.

[Richard Carner]

I bought the Domino assortment as well. Granted, I didn't know about the CMT bits but even so I still would have bought it. Like Jim said, I find myself using Dominos more than I normally would just because I have the assorted sizes available. Also, my shop time is limited so for me it is worth the cost to buy the pre made Dominos. With regards to 500 vs 700, think long term what type of projects you'll be doing most often. The 500 will work for tables, in fact I am using it for a huge farm table coming up soon. The 500 is also the right size for more "normal" sized projects such as casework, shelves, dressers, small tables etc. However, if you will be doing a lot of big tables, beds, etc then the 700 is probably the way to go. Whichever you decide, the Domino is a game changer and you'll never regret your purchase!

I'd really like the best of both worlds and may have found it. Marc Spagnuolo did an article titled: "Domino DF500 vs Domino XL DF700 – Which is Right for Me"? http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/domino-df500-vs-domino-xl-df700-which-is-right-for-me/. It was in the comment section that I found out that Seneca Woodworking had come out with an adapter that allows the 700 to perform with the same sized bits as the 500.

[Richard Carner]

I rarely use 10mm, I doubt I would ever use anything larger. The 500 is a handful, glad I don't have the 700. YMMV.
I have made my own dominoes, but when Festool's are perfect and not terribly expensive, I never did it again. YMMV
I have a dyson canister vacuum with a dust deputy. Seems like a perfect combination to me.

I'm getting a lot of good information about vacuum options. Thanks

[James Zhu]

Festools carries this adapter on their company site. https://www.festoolproducts.com/Seneca-Woodworking-RTS-500-Cutter-Adapter-for-Fest-p/rts-500-cutter-adapter-for-fes.htm Based on this news, I think I will take the plunge and purchase the 700.

That is not Festool website, it is a Festool dealer. I do not think Festool would recommend seneca 500 cutter adapter :)

I have 700, tenon assortments, Seneca 500 cutter adapter and Domi-shims for 700. All work perfectly.

[Jim Dwight]

I do not own a Domino but if I were to buy a Festool, this is the one I think I would buy. I can make mortises with my plunge router but I can't make them as quick as I could with a Domino. I also have a hollow chisel mortise and it's mortises are functional but not as nice as a router type tool like the Domino.

I use my little rigid shop vacuum pulling through a dust deputy with both on a cart :

I use it with the Bosch 35mm hose mentioned earlier - works great - and also with the original 2.5 inch hose. I use the latter to hook up to my table saw and to clean the floor. I did not hook the shop vac to the cyclone with flex hose, however, as is illustrated. I heated up 2 in PVC pipe to conform to my shop vac and the cyclone and hard piped it. If you do that, you get more suction and you also don't need the wooden hoop over the cyclone outlet, the pipe will keep everything together.

[Prashun Patel]

Richard-
I wouldn't decide so quickly which one you want. The DF700 IS a handful. It can get fatiguing if you are using it a lot for smaller things. If you will be making a lot of cases or working with 3/4" stock and furniture smaller than a dining room table, there's no real reason to get the DF700. If I were doing a room full of cabinets, I think I'd prefer the smaller unit. Also, beware that even with the seneca adapter, some users report that the the DF700 with adapter can be marginally less accurate than the DF500. I have not noticed that, but I have not used it with the smallest of cutters.

The DF700 only has 2 width stops. The DF500 has 3. I used all 3 with the DF500, and kind of wish the DF700 had it, but am making do fine without it.

The DF700 has more alignment pins in the face. So, you can actually make slots pretty easily with it by drilling repeated holes. This is nice if you are making splines. It's pretty accurate.

I just think you might want to hold one before committing. This is clearly (to me) a case where the type of projects you work on can affect the choice. But it's also like asking if you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream. I mean, they're both ice cream!

[Richard Carner]

That is not Festool website, it is a Festool dealer. I do not think Festool would recommend seneca 500 cutter adapter :)

I have 700, tenon assortments, Seneca 500 cutter adapter and Domi-shims for 700. All work perfectly.

Whoops. My bad. Eyeballs dancing around with doing all these searches. How do the Domi-shims work when you are working with material less than 20mm?

[Richard Carner]

I do not own a Domino but if I were to buy a Festool, this is the one I think I would buy. I can make mortises with my plunge router but I can't make them as quick as I could with a Domino. I also have a hollow chisel mortise and it's mortises are functional but not as nice as a router type tool like the Domino.

I use my little rigid shop vacuum pulling through a dust deputy with both on a cart :

I use it with the Bosch 35mm hose mentioned earlier - works great - and also with the original 2.5 inch hose. I use the latter to hook up to my table saw and to clean the floor. I did not hook the shop vac to the cyclone with flex hose, however, as is illustrated. I heated up 2 in PVC pipe to conform to my shop vac and the cyclone and hard piped it. If you do that, you get more suction and you also don't need the wooden hoop over the cyclone outlet, the pipe will keep everything together.

Very cool! I downloaded the complete PDF. Making the shop vacuum and the Dust Deputy system. Thanks very much.

[Richard Carner]

Richard-
I wouldn't decide so quickly which one you want. The DF700 IS a handful. It can get fatiguing if you are using it a lot for smaller things. If you will be making a lot of cases or working with 3/4" stock and furniture smaller than a dining room table, there's no real reason to get the DF700. If I were doing a room full of cabinets, I think I'd prefer the smaller unit. Also, beware that even with the seneca adapter, some users report that the the DF700 with adapter can be marginally less accurate than the DF500. I have not noticed that, but I have not used it with the smallest of cutters.

The DF700 only has 2 width stops. The DF500 has 3. I used all 3 with the DF500, and kind of wish the DF700 had it, but am making do fine without it.

The DF700 has more alignment pins in the face. So, you can actually make slots pretty easily with it by drilling repeated holes. This is nice if you are making splines. It's pretty accurate.

I just think you might want to hold one before committing. This is clearly (to me) a case where the type of projects you work on can affect the choice. But it's also like asking if you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream. I mean, they're both ice cream!

This is good advice that you are giving me Prashun. I am going to chill for a bit. I have read elsewhere that the 700 can be fatiguing to use. So I will mull this over while working in the shop.

[Mike Henderson]

I got the domino assortment in the systainer, partly because its nice to have everything in the systainers and because of the cost of the bits. I've found that having an assortment of dominos meant that I used them in situations I wouldn't have otherwise if I had to make the domino or go out and specially buy one.

+1 Same with me. Turns out I use the smallest one a fair amount.

Mike

[James Zhu]

Whoops. My bad. Eyeballs dancing around with doing all these searches. How do the Domi-shims work when you are working with material less than 20mm?

http://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/domi-shims-for-domino-xl-df-700

It has two plates, one for 1/2 ply, another for 3/4 ply, basically, installing the plate to the 700 fence, it centers the cutter.

Just noticed that they have a new solution which requires only one plate.

[Sam Murdoch]

Going on 7 years with the 500 and I have no complaints other than the wider slots are too wide. The 2nd setting is a wide as I would ever want to go and so the 3rd setting is never used. Would like 3 options but scaled between the 1st and the 2nd. My Domino application has consisted of lots of 3/4" ply carcass construction, cabinet doors, trim work, table tops, room and exterior doors and furniture pieces including tables and beds. Except for the doors I very rarely venture into the 8x50 or 10 x 50 tenons. I do double up on 8X 40 sometimes before going to a longer length - depends of course on lots of variables

Having said that I did buy the systainer kit in the beginning and was happy to have done so. My 1st systainer came damaged and so I asked for a replacement box. I was told that Festool would not sell an empty systainer so I was sent another complete kit including the bits :). I am now into my 3rd set of 5mm and 6 mm bits but expect that the 8 and 10s will outlive me. Just as my double collection of 8x 50 and 10 x 50 mm tenons. I've used up boxes and boxes and boxes of the 5x30 and 6x40 and 1/2 as many 8x40s. Just my experience. Which you might use will certainly depend on the kind of work you intend to do - just as Prashun has noted.

Yes, you do need good dust collection - so please don't compromise yourself out of that essential. The Domino is a wonderful tool.

Incidentally - I did discover not too long ago that the Domino makes an excellent elongated hole for attaching a stretcher to a table top with washer head screws. Bonus!

[Bill McNiel]

Richard,
I have the 500, and like the track saw, I have found many more uses than I thought of back when I bought it. If possible, I would really suggest you get a hands on experience with both the 700 & 500. The 700 is significantly larger/heavier. I borrowed a 700 to create floating tenons on a large table and it did a really great job but I can't really see using it for face frames,drawers, etc. The number of times I would use the 700 vs the 500 is very limited. Several times I have used the 500 to double cut both height and width mortises and then fabricated the tenons.

As as far as the vac goes, I look at it as I am buying into a system so keeping as much of it Festool as logical makes sense. I do use the Senica plate and really like it.

Just my $0.02

[Richard Carner]

Going on 7 years with the 500 and I have no complaints other than the wider slots are too wide. The 2nd setting is a wide as I would ever want to go and so the 3rd setting is never used. Would like 3 options but scaled between the 1st and the 2nd. My Domino application has consisted of lots of 3/4" ply carcass construction, cabinet doors, trim work, table tops, room and exterior doors and furniture pieces including tables and beds. Except for the doors I very rarely venture into the 8x50 or 10 x 50 tenons. I do double up on 8X 40 sometimes before going to a longer length - depends of course on lots of variables

Having said that I did buy the systainer kit in the beginning and was happy to have done so. My 1st systainer came damaged and so I asked for a replacement box. I was told that Festool would not sell an empty systainer so I was sent another complete kit including the bits :). I am now into my 3rd set of 5mm and 6 mm bits but expect that the 8 and 10s will outlive me. Just as my double collection of 8x 50 and 10 x 50 mm tenons. I've used up boxes and boxes and boxes of the 5x30 and 6x40 and 1/2 as many 8x40s. Just my experience. Which you might use will certainly depend on the kind of work you intend to do - just as Prashun has noted.

Yes, you do need good dust collection - so please don't compromise yourself out of that essential. The Domino is a wonderful tool.

Incidentally - I did discover not too long ago that the Domino makes an excellent elongated hole for attaching a stretcher to a table top with washer head screws. Bonus!

Good read. It is reassuring to hear that you have been using the 500 for 7 years and have used it in conjunction with exterior doors and such. I have been thinking about what Prashun said and now will go ahead and get the 500. I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. You do not know how much I appreciate the comments both about the two machines and the dust extraction systems.

[Richard Carner]

I have owned both.
Instead of buying a $200 systainer and assorted tenons that you may never use, I would instead buy a good hose and adapter so you can dust collect properly. This is a must for accurate mortises.

Last, you can purchase the CMT cutters for 1/2 price of the Festool ones. Check AMZN.

About the CMT cutters, I was under the impression that the Domino cutters threaded on to the spindle. Amazon has CMT cutters that thread on to the Domino? TIA

[Chris Padilla]

The Domino cutters DO thread onto the spindle of the Domino. This is the first I've heard of the CMT Domino bits in this thread. I like CMT...I have plenty of their router bits and table saw blades.

Here is a list of the CMT Domino cutters (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=cmt+domino) on Amazon.

[Prashun Patel]

They do thread. The CMT bits are made specifically for the Domino. I've owned and used the 8mm and 10mm ones and they worked (are working) fine.

[Dan Wiese]

I have the 500 and 700 and use both but prefer the 700. While being bigger and heavier I find the 700 is more accurate for me. If the only thing I used them for were case goods then the 500 with the domi plate is great. I use the 700 for picture frames and like the stability it provides. Both are very fine pieces of equipment and I would recommend a vacuum be used with them.

[Gene Davis]

I bought my 500 used, and bought the CT36 with it, along with a 5 inch Rotex the owner was selling. Had I known about the hose option for a ShopVac, which would fit my Sears 8 gallon wet-dry, I would have not bought the CT.

And it's too late for me. I already bought the full assortment of bits from Festool. Buying the CMT bits would have saved me enough to buy a lot of dominos and sandpaper for the Rotex.

All I am building now is furniture and casework, so the 500 and its 10mm max size domino is all I need. What a great tool. If I were building doors and heavy stuff, or owned a subscription woodworking website, I would go for the 700.

Check the classifieds on the FOG (Festool Owners Group) website. Guy there right now is selling his whole collection, hardly any of it used, and the list has a 500 and 700, still under warranty. You can buy his whole shebang for about 30 grand.

[Richard Carner]

I have the 500 and 700 and use both but prefer the 700. While being bigger and heavier I find the 700 is more accurate for me. If the only thing I used them for were case goods then the 500 with the domi plate is great. I use the 700 for picture frames and like the stability it provides. Both are very fine pieces of equipment and I would recommend a vacuum be used with them.

Dan, thanks for your input. I continue to heed Prashun's admonition to not rush into making a decision one way or another. I am going through an equipment acquisition/upgrade phase and only have budgetary room for the 500 or the 700. The CMT bits in the 5/8/10mm sizes and $22 packs of tenons as opposed to the Systainer might be one way of saving some money.

[Richard Carner]

Richard,
I have the 500, and like the track saw, I have found many more uses than I thought of back when I bought it. If possible, I would really suggest you get a hands on experience with both the 700 & 500. The 700 is significantly larger/heavier. I borrowed a 700 to create floating tenons on a large table and it did a really great job but I can't really see using it for face frames,drawers, etc. The number of times I would use the 700 vs the 500 is very limited. Several times I have used the 500 to double cut both height and width mortises and then fabricated the tenons.

As as far as the vac goes, I look at it as I am buying into a system so keeping as much of it Festool as logical makes sense. I do use the Senica plate and really like it.

Just my $0.02

More then just $0.02... I don't know which way I'll go re: the vacuum system. The Dust Deputy connected to my Shop Vac would for now be an economical solution. However that Festool CT Midi looks awful tempting. Just out of curiosity, how were you employing the floating tenons on a large table? One project coming up for me is a hybrid tavern table where I'll be including breadboards. The table thickness will be around 7/8". I'm thinking that the 10mm tenons in a layout where, say 3 are glued into the center of the breadboard-tabletop and two others float on either end might work.