Ultimate Table saw/Cabinet saw

[Chris Barton]

Hi Everyone,

I am considering buying a new table saw and would like to get a high-end model that would ideally have the following features:

sliding table
overhead and undertable dust collection
riving knife
Past those few requirements I can tell you that I don't have room for one of the giant industrial models, it will need to fit in a modest footprint. I have 220v available and expect to go with a 3hp or better motor.

Given the above, which would be your "Dream Saw"???

[Richard Wolf]

The sliding table loses a lot of its effectivence once you go below 8 1/2 ft. If you can't process full sheets of ply, what's the point?
If I was doing it all over, I would be thinking Saw Stop.
Right now I'm using a PM66.

Richard

[Michael Ballent]

A lot of this will be determined by your budget... Format 4 makes something like what you are looking for, but it is an industrial machine with a price tag and footprint to match. Down the food chain, Euro sliding saws have riving knives and sliding tables, but you will have add DC on the top side on your own (but I could be wrong) Next down I guess would be SawStop, has riving knive, but no sliding table nor top side DC... PM has announced a new machine that has a riving knife, but details on how that one works are still murky.

Good luck on your decision.

[Richard Wolf]

Chris, I just realized, you and I had a late night discussion about this (sawstop) once before.

Richard

[Rob Russell]

Chris,

You can get what you want in the european sliding table saws (with or without a shaper built-in). You just won't be able to get a 10' sliding table. You can get a saw that will probably have the footprint you want and offer an 8' sliding table so you can flop a sheet of plywood on it and cut lengthwise. If you don't think that 8' capability will be important, then there are definitely saws that offer what you want.

Same old brands - Hammer/Felder and MiniMax are what I'd look at.

The Format-4 saws mentioned above are going to be way too huge to fit your footprint requirements, not to mention I'll bet you'd choke when you saw their pricetag.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Chris, if you want all three features, your options are limited if you want a true slider and/or you want everything from one company.

You could, for example, do a SawStop to get the riving knife and below blade collection hood combined with a third party overarm guard/collector and a third party sliding table. The slider in this solution is the weak link since it's a foot away from the blade.

You could also do a small MiniMax, such as the SC3 (http://www.minimax-usa.com/stablesaws/sc3w.html), which will give you everything, although the slider is a small capacity one. (5.5') That will be a little more than the SawStop combination, but has a true slider configuration. There are some similar machines from other Euro manufacturers. Personally, if I were investing in a slider...it would be the next step up as my "dream" machine, likely with a combo tilting shaper in the same frame...but that's me.

[Chris Barton]

Thanks for the input so far. Richard, I am willing to consider the Sawstop and have it on my list. Price is secondary to function in this consideration and I am more interested in buying a saw that is going to function like a fine mechanical Swiss watch movement. Hammer seems to come close as does Felder to what I am interested in.

Thanks again and keep the suggestions coming...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Everyone,

I am considering buying a new table saw and would like to get a high-end model that would ideally have the following features:

sliding table
overhead and undertable dust collection
riving knife
Past those few requirements I can tell you that I don't have room for one of the giant industrial models, it will need to fit in a modest footprint. I have 220v available and expect to go with a 3hp or better motor.

Given the above, which would be your "Dream Saw"???

Chris,
Giving your requirements, the first question I would have is what do you mean by modest footprint? The footprint of a European Sliding table saw (format style) is not that much. The outrigger assembly (the left side of the slider) does come off on most. It can be stored when not needed. The actual use of it is a different story as it will remain a function of the length of the slider you choose (5,8,9,10ft.....) I am a little biased here but I would have to say a dream saw for the serious hobbiest or small pro shop is the MM S315WS. I had it and it was a great saw. I recently upgraded to the MM Formula S35, a 10.5ft slider. No matter what brand you get once you go to a slider there ain't no way you are ever going back!

[Rick Lizek]

You have a number of options. Laguna, Felder, Robland, Knapp, Hammer, Kufo, Rojek, Minimax, Paolini, SAC and probably a few others I can't think of at the moment. They all make sliders four feet and up. I don't find any problem with a four foot slider. I had an SCMI that took a dado blade and had scoring. If you want to use a dado your options are less but there are saws out there that will take a dado. I have acces to a nice Giggio four foot slider as well as an eight foot Paolini slider. There's also a number of used sliders that are available. See www.exfactory.com for more used sliders.

[Rob Russell]

Chris, if you want all three features, your options are limited if you want a true slider and/or you want everything from one company.


FYI, Felder offers an overhead guard as option on all but their bottom level saw and saw/shaper.

This is definitely another case of "do your homework" for a purchase like this. There are a lot of options out there.

[Jim Becker]

FYI, Felder offers an overhead guard as option on all but their bottom level saw and saw/shaper.

This is definitely another case of "do your homework" for a purchase like this. There are a lot of options out there.

Exactly what I was pointing out, Rob...Felder, MM, Rojek, Knapp, etc.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Chris, Back in April and May I had the opportunity to operate and test the new Hammer line. I was impressed. They made a bunch of improvements to the machine to make them much more attractive especially for the American market. I didn't use the stand alone saw but the the B3 saw/shaper combo. It's not a big Felder but it doesn't have the Felder price tag either.
I disagree with the statement that you need at least an 8.5ft sliding table in order for the slider to be fully functional. If you work mostly in hardwoods and/or don't like lugging big panels around and don't have the room, a smaller slider is easier to use and manage with smaller workpieces.
try to get a good look at a machine in operation and see if it fits your needs and budget.
take care
John

[Mike Wilkins]

A tablesaw with format-style slider is next on my got-to-have list, most likely with the shaper option. Like you, I am space challenged in the shop, and I feel that a saw with a 4 or 5 foot slider will serve me well. For ripping full sheets in a small shop, there is no reason that you could not place an auxillary outfeed table behind the machine, or a workbench with locking casters to catch the outfeeding stock.
I would love to have the space for a full slider w/long slide capacity, but most of the Euro players make a machine that can and will fit your space and budget. Do you homework and chose a machine that will last for the long haul.
Mike in eastern NC wishing for some winning lottery numbers.

[roy knapp]

check the dewalt hybrid table saw, i have the dw 746x, but not the sliding cross feed table. It was something that i could not afford at the time but could get at a latter date.
that table saw will meet all your requirements.:)

[Charlie Plesums]

You didn't say just how limited your space was, but I have the largest MiniMax combo machine (8.5 foot slider, 12 inch blade, scoring blade, 4.7 hp saw), plus 4.7 hp tilting shaper, plus 16 inch jointer plus 16 inch planer plus slot mortiser in my garage. In addition, I have a bandsaw, lathe, drill press, radial arm saw, drum sander, dust collector, and other various tools, along with hundreds of board feet of lumber, in this same area. For the picture police...here it is
http://www.plesums.com/wood/shop/Plesums CU410 Elite in garage.jpg

When there are no active projects, I can still get one car in the two car garage - the outrigger (the wide part of the table I am standing behind) comes off in just a minute, and the folding saw horses go away), but when I am working, the outrigger on the saw and the assembly area takes the space where the second car occasionally goes.

Although this is a huge investment, my wife (the CPA) said I should have gotten it 30 years ago, so we would have had it for all the houses, kitchens, etc. we have remodeled over the years. Having used it since January, I can't imagine going back to an ordinary table saw - the precision and speed (no infeed/outfeed stands) is unbelieveable.

[Michael Ballent]

Charlie,
I am surprised how low that monster is... That or you are one tall fellow ;) Nice looking machine, and you are right about purchasing such a beast, if you add up all the large tools a typical woodworker has you are pretty close the cost of a Euro Combo Machine (ECM) but it must really hurt to cut that check for a ECM. ;)

[Charlie Plesums]

Charlie,
I am surprised how low that monster is... That or you are one tall fellow ;) Nice looking machine, and you are right about purchasing such a beast, if you add up all the large tools a typical woodworker has you are pretty close the cost of a Euro Combo Machine (ECM) but it must really hurt to cut that check for a ECM. ;)

The table height is about 36 inches, so I guess I must be tall (actually a fraction under 6'4"). Couple more gee-whiz statistics...

the outrigger fence extends to 10 1/2 feet (any other saw you know have a miter gauge that wide?)
If I cut a rectangle with a perimeter of, for example, 8 feet and suspect an error of more than .01 inches in that 8 feet of cutting, it is time to recalibrate the machine. I haven't had to redo the setup in the 8 months I have had the machine (the last time I checked, the error was about .0001 inches).
I routinely crank in 0.5 degrees on the blade when cutting pieces that slip into a space, so it slips in easily but has an extra tight fit at the surface (the digital readout makes that trivial).
I routinely trim my cuts by the thickness of a business card.
And that 5 foot long reinforced piece of aluminum held in place with a cast iron bracket on a steel fence, sticking up on the left side of the picture, is merely the jointer fence.
If you are looking at the 5 function European combos, there are several models that I call the Yugos (they are inexpensive and get you there just as fast as any, but may need more tinkering), the Chevy ($11,000 MiniMax that Fine Woodworking rated best), the Cadillac (The $18,000 MiniMax), The BMW (The $25,000 Felder with Austrian engineering), and the Rolls Royce (The extra heavy $35,000 Knapp from Laguna).

Yes, it sure hurt whenever I spend any money (I'm cheap:D ), but buying the MiniMax didn't hurt as much as buying a car or computer or camera that will have no value in a few years.

[John Stevens]

If I cut a rectangle with a perimeter of, for example, 8 feet and suspect an error of more than .01 inches in that 8 feet of cutting, it is time to recalibrate the machine.

Charlie, what kind of square or other instrument do you use to calibrate your fence?

[Sam Blasco]

You didn't say just how limited your space was,

Or how clean... Man, Charley, looks like a whole new shop than when I was there a few weeks ago. Did you tidy the place up just for that picture? :p

Chris, once you learn to just keep making left turns you'll never go back.

[Charlie Plesums]

Charlie, what kind of square or other instrument do you use to calibrate your fence?

As Sam said, keep turning left. More specifically, start with a sheet of anything... I usually grab a hunk of MDF. Cut one edge straight using the slider (so the right side is cut). Turn the sheet left, so cut 1 is against the fence, and make cut 2. Turn left again for cut 3, again for cut 4. Theoretically you have a perfect rectangle. So turn one more time and make a fifth cut, removing a thin strip.

Break the strip you just cut off in half and compare the thickness of the leading end with the thickness of the trailing end. If everything is perfect, the two ends of the strip will be exactly the same thickness. If not, it takes a fair amount of Scotch or equivalent to figure out how much you have to adjust the fence to get it right. (Hint... if you were cutting a square, start by moving the fence, at the outer edge of the cut square, 1/4 the error.)

[Charlie Plesums]

Or how clean... Man, Charley, looks like a whole new shop than when I was there a few weeks ago. Did you tidy the place up just for that picture? :p


Aw c'mon, Erik took that picture a month after I got the machine (no heat or AC - note the long sleeves).;) And you saw the shop while I was in the middle of a project with hundreds of boards, 252 mortises (and corresponding tenons cut in 5 foot long boards), and I had been sanding (with a belt sander and ROS) all those pieces.:( I don't have the neatest shop in the world, but I do clean it up occasionally.

When my $1000 worth of Lyptus for the next project arrives Monday, I won't have any trouble finding it ... it will be near the machines, not on a cart a long ways away like the 8/4 lyptus I saw in your shop:D (zing) (gotcha)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Aw c'mon, Erik took that picture a month after I got the machine (no heat or AC - note the long sleeves).;) And you saw the shop while I was in the middle of a project with hundreds of boards, 252 mortises (and corresponding tenons cut in 5 foot long boards), and I had been sanding (with a belt sander and ROS) all those pieces.:( I don't have the neatest shop in the world, but I do clean it up occasionally.

When my $1000 worth of Lyptus for the next project arrives Monday, I won't have any trouble finding it ... it will be near the machines, not on a cart a long ways away like the 8/4 lyptus I saw in your shop:D (zing) (gotcha)

Charlie,
Take it easy on him! You know all he does these days is sit at his desk and eat doughnuts anyway. I surprised he even knows how to power up a machine still :D

BY the way I got your info thanks I really appreciate it. I use to have a iron I "borrowed" from my mother way back in college. I used it to melt the wax to wax my skis when I use to race in college :) I just have to go and find it