LV or LN low angle jack

[Peter Choi]

Hey guys,

So I decided to take a plunge and buy a new low angle jack plane. Im torn between the LN and the LV. LN has a nicer aesthetic and I personally think it looks nicer but the LV has multiple angle blades. Is there any other differences between the two? I know that LN uses baileys design while LV uses norris. But I'm not really sure what that means.

[Jim Koepke]

Hey guys,

So I decided to take a plunge and buy a new low angle jack plane. Im torn between the LN and the LV. LN has a nicer aesthetic and I personally think it looks nicer but the LV has multiple angle blades. Is there any other differences between the two? I know that LN uses baileys design while LV uses norris. But I'm not really sure what that means.

The differences:

The LN isn't actually a Bailey design. The Bailey adjuster is on almost all of the Stanley and many other's bench planes. The LN #62 is adjusted by a nut on a threaded rod with the nut working directly on the blade without a lever in between. Lateral adjustment is done by hand or with taps from a small mallet/hammer.

The LV Norris adjuster combines depth and lateral adjustment in one control.

There are multiple blades also available for the LN. Besides, a different angle is something that can be done to a standard angle blade with a secondary bevel.

The common praise on the LV family of planes is the different planes that use the same 2-1/4" blade. If you are going to buy the whole set; smoother, jack and jointer, this may make a good argument for the LV.

One accessory that tipped my choice to the LN #62 is the hot dog. This is especially comfortable when using a shooting board. Derek Cohen has an excellent post on making his own for his LV jack plane.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

LN can supply you with additional irons. IIRC, they have a 50* listed [which gives you an included angle of 62*], but I also remember seeing somewhere on the site that you can order irons from them in any angle you like. OR, take a little bit of time and grind down your own.

Beyond that - you won't make a mistake either way. I have a couple LV planes, but the big majority is LN.

JIm K types faster than I do - sorry for the overlap.

[Prashun Patel]

The Veritas also has lateral set screws on either side of the blade that keep the blade squared during removal and insertion, so resetting after sharpening is marginally easier in it. I lost mine though :(

As for multiple blade grinds, they're all the same blade, just with a different grind. In fact, after having bought a couple at different angles, I reground all my veritas blades to 25 and just honed a different micro on some like my smoother. GRINDING a primary commits you a little harder to something you may not find suits you (those higher angles are harder to push, and aren't the only path to cleaner cuts in figured wood).

I have the Veritas LA jointer. And I do share the toothed blade between the two planes. I like that feature.

The nice thing about the LN LA jack, I have to say, is the fact that you can get a hot-dog handle for it. Both planes can be used in for shooting. I use my Veritas as a shooter. The grip is awkward though; I end up gripping around the blade assembly which doesn't feel right and makes me nervous of moving it. Lie Nielsen has addressed this with the hot dog.

[Curt Putnam]

Buy your irons @ 25° and then hone a secondary bevel at any angle you want. Derek Cohen's site has a good article on the subject, which is how I learned about it. You will probably also want a toothing blade. As has been said, the LV blades can come in PM-V11 and will fit the shooter, big smoother, the jack, and the #7 sized jointer. The jointer takes a very useful fence. If any of that commonality appeals to you then you will want to go LV for sure. Otherwise go with your heart.

[Pedro Reyes]

Hey guys,

So I decided to take a plunge and buy a new low angle jack plane. Im torn between the LN and the LV. LN has a nicer aesthetic and I personally think it looks nicer but the LV has multiple angle blades. Is there any other differences between the two? I know that LN uses baileys design while LV uses norris. But I'm not really sure what that means.

If I were in your position, I would add the low angle jack rabbet from Lee Valley, sorry to add to the confusion. I own the LN 62 and love it. I also own Lee Valley planes and I can not say enough good things about their design, manufacture and performance, exceptional.

If you have an opportunity to touch both planes, and have a few swipes with them, you should base your decision on that experience, they are both fantastic tools. I threw in the jack rabbet because it adds a little extra functionality (not critical) and you can add a variable angle fence recently released by Lee Valley... like I said, not crrtical, I am just brain washing myself into thinking I need one.

Pedro

[Jim Koepke]

JIm K types faster than I do -

Or I started typing a lot earlier. :)

jtk

[paul cottingham]

One thing to consider is bench height. In my experience, the lv planes (which I have a preference for) seem to work better and more comfortable if your bench height is such that you are pushing with your elbow quite low. In other words, the closer you can get your forearm to parallel when pushing the plane, the better. So a slightly higher bench helps.
the LN is easier to use if your arm is at more of an angle, so a lower bench helps. This is largely due to the angle of the handles.
YMMV, of course.

[glenn bradley]

Both are fine tools. I too made a hot dog for my LV LAJ.

312132312131312133

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Both are excellent planes. I went with LV because of the availabilty of a number of different planes with the same blade, and because with all else being equal, they were a bit cheaper as well. I now probably have 10 or 12 irons for the bevel ups, and I have a smoother, jack, jointer, and a shooting plane that all take the same blade. By the way, if you get the toothed blade you will love it for figured woods. Oh, and the PMV11 is also a very good steel if you want to split hairs... literally! :-)

[ian maybury]

On the grind/bevel angle of irons for the LV. Quite a few argue that it's most straightforward to go with the 25 deg all the time, and to rely on adding a microbevel when steeper angles are required when needing to add some camber as well - it's very hard work to do so over a full thickness bevel.

It seems to work very well, but unfortunately i had bought some irons with steeper bevels before i heard of the option from Derek C's site - with the result that (since i'm nowhere near an LV outlet) i ended up needing to regrind them. Which was hard work...

[Brian Holcombe]

I have the LN, use it a lot and is like it.
I find A2 blades to need a bevel of 34-35 degrees to hold up really well so a low angle plane for me is not lower than my standard pitch plane.

I use it for shooting and put a heavily cambered blade in it for rough stock removal.

[Marc Seguin]

I like Veritas offerings more in general, but the big thing for me against Lie Nielsen is they only offer blades in A2 steel as Brian mentioned. I don't like A2 at all, so even if I wanted to go with a Lie Neilsen plane I'd have to find/or make a replacement iron for it.

I love my LAJ though. It's my most used plane by far.

[Brian Holcombe]

Marc, I think they offer o1 as well...At least I have a replacement blade in 01.

A2 is not my favorite either.

[glenn bradley]

I run PM-V11 at 25 degrees with good success.

[Peter Choi]

ahhh I'm sure I'm just splitting hairs at this time. They both seem to be really good planes but I like the aesthetic of the LN better but the veritas seems more functional. Seeing how theres a lateral and depth adjuster, PM-V11, and ability to switch between different planes if I decide to get more, which I probably will.

Bench height won't matter too much at this time since Im using the planes to build a work bench. Going to buy a couple black and decker workmates to plane the wood for my work bench.

[Peter Pedisich]

I consider the LN one of the finest looking planes they make, but when I purchased a LAJ I went with the LV... Why? mainly because of the stout handle and the norris adjuster. Turns out after really using the tool for hours those ended up being the two things I dislike about the plane - I tend to mess up the lateral adjustment more than I'd like, and the handle was just uncomfortable after 15+ minutes of use (replaced with Bill Rittner's Stanley type)

What I didn't expect about the LV, but ended up being my favorite aspects are: 1) the increased width (very handy in some cases); 2) The excellent quality of the blade (very long lasting edge!); 3) The absolutely fantastic manufacturing precision, I mean the level of machining quality was better than I ever expected at the very reasonable price they sell it for. (just like every other Veritas branded plane I've purchased since)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-n9SiEwxF17Q/Ug_cBM842NI/AAAAAAAAChk/yKTfhrIf5os/s800/IMG_0528.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N7yShO1SV2w/Ug_cDYmF8iI/AAAAAAAAChk/7FkCCEscf_s/s800/IMG_0530.JPG

[Matthew Hills]

Toothed blade was great for flattening workbench with reversing grain and knots.
(although I would recommend going the easier route and ensuring your grain is plane-friendly from the outset)

Matt

[Derek Cohen]

Hey guys,

So I decided to take a plunge and buy a new low angle jack plane. Im torn between the LN and the LV. LN has a nicer aesthetic and I personally think it looks nicer but the LV has multiple angle blades. Is there any other differences between the two? I know that LN uses baileys design while LV uses norris. But I'm not really sure what that means.

Hi Peter

Realise that the LN and the LV bevel up jacks are two different planes. The LN is the size of a #5, and the LV is more of a #5 1/2 (a little less, but the analogy applies). The LN uses a 2" wide blade and the LV a 2 1/4" wide blade.

They have different methods of adjusting the mouth opening. The LV is more intuitive and ergonomic.

The blade adjustment systems is different - the LN is fixed fore-and-back only, while the LV has a Norris-type adjuster that includes side-to-side .... nevertheless, this is not a deal breaker as I would use a small hammer to adjust sideways as well.

The LV (only) has side set screws to (re)position the blade - and this is worth the price of entry alone. It makes setting up so much easier.

The LN is prettier. Buy the LN if this is important enough. For some it is.

The LN has a hotdog handle available as an option. The LV does not. Because of this I built one for my LV. See here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Building%20the%20Hotdog%20Mk%20II%20for%20the%20LV %20LA%20Jack%20pics.html

The irony is that I no longer recommend it - build it if you must, but there is an easier way. Just hold the LV BUF correctly when shooting, and it is comfortable and very controllable: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared_html_309f013.jpg



The handles of the LN and LV are different. This has been the source of much controversy. I have switched back-and-forth over several years between the original LV handles and LN/Stanley-style handles made by Bill Rittner. Here they are ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes3_html_m4d66a5a6.jpg


I have a thing for ergonomics. During the recent examination of the LV Custom planes I explained why I have returned to the original style handles

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes3.html

Here is my LV LA Jack ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Panel/5-Jointing_zpsw1yyvker.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

The irony is that I no longer recommend it - build it if you must, but there is an easier way. Just hold the LV BUF correctly when shooting, and it is comfortable and very controllable: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html

Derek, I read your excellent article but Im not where I can try it out just now - and I cant quite visualize what you're teaching. Am I to apply both downforce AND the slight forward force you recommend at the thumb?

As always, thanks for teaching me.
Fred

[Prashun Patel]

Me too. Thanks Derek.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I read your excellent article but Im not where I can try it out just now - and I cant quite visualize what you're teaching. Am I to apply both downforce AND the slight forward force you recommend at the thumb?

As always, thanks for teaching me.
Fred

Hi Fred

There is an addition that I will add to the explanation.

Firstly, the single best addition to a shooting plane, or a plane for shooting, is actually to the shooting board, per se. This is a side fence (or "running fence", the name I used in an article): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/RunningFencefortheShootingBoard.html

You see it here with the LV LA Jack with a hotdog ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/RunningFencefortheShootingBoard_html_27c06340.jpg

The side/running fence holds the plane against the sidewall and then all that is needed is forward movement (push the plane).

Now the hotdog is not really necessary since the round finger holes provide enough grip on their own when you pinch them simultaneously from these indents and underneath the lever cap.

If you do not use the side fence to hold the plane against the sidewall, then the lower (four) fingers need to do so ... push down with the thumb and across simultaneously with the other fingers.

Now it is time to read again the section in the article I linked to earlier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Rhodus]

LN and/or LV buj will do you a fine job but I would buy the Lv. I believe it is a better user although the Ln looks better. Unless you have a specific need for it, I would not buy the jack rabbet; a fine plane and I own one, but I would buy the Lv buj first because it is a better daily user. As to the type of iron, marry this to the sharpening system you use.

[Peter Choi]

I took a plunge and bought the one from lv with the pm v11 blade. It was 50 dollars more than ln CUZ lv charges me tax and shipping. But then again if it doesn't feel right I could return it. Would just hold it and see how it feels and paying another 65 dollars or so for the handle/tote would make it so much more than the ln and at that point I would go ln.

also is oil stones or water stones recommended for the pm-v11 blade?

[Prashun Patel]

Congrats, Peter. Welcome to Club Slippery Slope.
The PM-V11 wokrs fine with my Shaptons (water stones). I don't notice that they are significantly harder to sharpen than A1.

[ronald mccormack]

I own the LV low angle jack and its a nice plane, I like it alot but there are a few things you should be aware of. as for the set screws on the sides, they seem to be practically usless, mabye I dont know how to use them but if you tight them enough to prevent the blade from shift you cant get the blade back in after sharpening without loosing the screw thus negating the whole point of them, its just one more thing to adjust so i stopped even bothering with them. as for the blades i bought all three and really only use one that i reground to 40 degrees anyway, I primarily use it for smoothing and shooting and that angle works just as good as any other for both, but i will say it is convenient to have a 50 degree blade for very figured wood prone to chipout. the only problem i have with the plane is that when shooting the way my hand fits the plane often pushes on the cap screw and slides the blade out of alignment. a hot dog type hand that LN has would probally solve this issue however.

[Marc Seguin]

I have no problem with PMV11 on my arkansas stones or water stones. It takes maybe a few more strokes than O1.

[Jim Koepke]

as for the set screws on the sides, they seem to be practically usless, mabye I dont know how to use them but if you tight them enough to prevent the blade from shift you cant get the blade back in after sharpening without loosing the screw thus negating the whole point of them

It may be the set screws are only a guide to help center the blade after sharpening. None of my planes have set screws and sometimes getting the blade centered is a little extra work. Not enough for me to drill and tap the sides of my plane to see if a set screw would help.

jtk

[Chet R Parks]

I have both, the LN and LV low angle jack planes both are great and in my inexperienced hands I can't distinguish a difference. I will say that the set screws on the LV are kind of a pain and I don't use them either. I think because the sides of the blades are not vary smooth the set screws tend to restrict the movement of the blade in and out also in removing and inserting the blade. The set screws have to be loosened and readjusted each time. Maybe there's something I don't understand or maybe I just need some guidance???
Chet

[Simon MacGowen]

you cant get the blade back in after sharpening without loosing the screw thus negating the whole point of them...

Unless there is a defect there (e.g. the screw moves by itself after you set it right), it means you have overtightened the set screws. All my planes (Veritas) have set screws and none of them behave in the manner you described after every sharpening of the blade. My school has more Veritas planes and again, no students have ever reported having the issue you reported.

Overtightening, not just the set screws, is a common mistake people make with regard to planes. I once had to resort to use a pair of pliers to loosen a knob on a plane and that should never be the case.

This is how to tune up the set screws: place the blade in position. Tighten one set screw till it touches the blade and then tighten the opposite screw until it touches the blade too. Now, back track one of the screws so very slightly.

Try it and you should not have the same problem you have been suffering from.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

Dont set them so tight. They dont need to be tight, just touching.

[Derek Cohen]

This is how to tune up the set screws: place the blade in position. Tighten one set screw till it touches the blade and then tighten the opposite screw until it touches the blade too. Now, back track one of the screws so very slightly

Correct.

One more item: if the lever cap moves when you place your fingers below it, then it is too loose. The lever cap needs to be tight enough not to move, but loose enough to adjust the blade in-and-out. If you cannot do so, then it is too tight.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Marc Seguin]

Simon's spot on about the setscrews. I put a drop of purple Loctite (222MS) on each set screw and adjust my iron to centre with a 0.005 " shim on one side. Then no need to mess with them again. Though with the light strength loctite you can still turn them if you want to. It's such a nice convenience I've thought about adding them to my Stanley planes.

[Matt Lau]

Welcome to the club. It's a great plane.

Either stones are fine. PM-V11 sharpens as easily as white steel to me.