Chinese Lumber

[Robert Engel]

OK, is it me or is anyone else wondering what they glue it with?
Or why it smells the way it does.
I bought some Chinese pine ply the other day and lets just say it defintely smelled …. different.

I used a respirator I was a little scared of it.
Anyone else with similar thoughts/experiences?


My local “premier” plywood supplier is carrying Chinese birch at $42/sheet vs $72 for domestic.
So what are we supposed to do, go broke?

[Peter Kelly]

Whatever glue it is, they don't typically use enough of it. The China ply is such garbage quality that it'll likely cost several times more than domestic as it does all sorts of bizarre unexpected stuff when you cut into it.

Complete false economy.

[Victor Robinson]

Pine ply eh? I just saw some new Chinese pine ply at HD and was wondering about it. At $30/sheet for 3/4" (or was it 34?) seemed like a good deal. Didn't look as screwed up as China ply often does.

[Rod Sheridan]

No you're not supposed to go broke, however there's no reason to go with the lowest common denominator.

[Larry Copas]

At the urging of my lumber supplier I bought some China birch a couple of years ago. He said a lot of his pro cabinet makers were using it.

The worst materialI've ever had. Top lamination varied in thickness from see through to about 1/16". When I flexed a sheet getting it on the table saw I noticed a big patch that had delaminated. Lots of voids. I ended up ripping it all 4" wide and used it to form up some curvy places on my concrete sidewalk. Worked just fine as concrete forms.

[scott vroom]

OK, is it me or is anyone else wondering what they glue it with?
Or why it smells the way it does.
I bought some Chinese pine ply the other day and lets just say it defintely smelled …. different.

I used a respirator I was a little scared of it.
Anyone else with similar thoughts/experiences?


My local “premier” plywood supplier is carrying Chinese birch at $42/sheet vs $72 for domestic.
So what are we supposed to do, go broke?

Maybe another question would be: "What are we supposed to do, go cheap for stuff or pay a fair price for quality?"

You didn't mention any grading requirements or dimensions. I pay $75 for a 4 x 8 3/4" sheet of domestic A1 birch.

You didn't mention maple, but I pay $55 for 4 x 8 3/4" domestic C-2 maple.

You get what you pay for. If $72 breaks your bank then I guess you go with the cheap stuff and work around the poor quality.

[glenn bradley]

Whatever glue it is, they don't typically use enough of it. The China ply is such garbage quality that it'll likely cost several times more than domestic as it does all sorts of bizarre unexpected stuff when you cut into it.

Complete false economy.

+10 from my experience. Fool me once . . . I have no need for that garbage, the U.S. stuff is poor enough.

[Wes Ramsey]

I got to see some plywood 'factories' in Guizhou Province last time I was in China. The plies were stood up on one end next to the owners' houses, in a rack and left to bow and twist at will. I didn't get to see them actually glue any up, but if the process was like everything else done in the area it was done at home or on the street by 1-2 individuals with whatever tools they had available, then sold to whoever would buy it. In town there was a shop that built chrome store fixtures on the sidewalk in front of their shop, welding them together all while pedestrians walked by and stepped over their work. The carpet place next door pulled their racks out into the street and blocked traffic to cut from a roll. Civil construction skills were pretty shabby, and buildings that looked to have survived the Japanese occupation had cornerstones that dated them to only 10-20 years old. They used whatever was available that got the project done and pride was NOT evident in their work. Having seen this first hand I wouldn't buy it and I wouldn't build with it. Just my .02 kuai yuan.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I got to see some plywood 'factories' in Guizhou Province last time I was in China. The plies were stood up on one end next to the owners' houses, in a rack and left to bow and twist at will. I didn't get to see them actually glue any up, but if the process was like everything else done in the area it was done at home or on the street by 1-2 individuals with whatever tools they had available, then sold to whoever would buy it. In town there was a shop that built chrome store fixtures on the sidewalk in front of their shop, welding them together all while pedestrians walked by and stepped over their work. The carpet place next door pulled their racks out into the street and blocked traffic to cut from a roll. Civil construction skills were pretty shabby, and buildings that looked to have survived the Japanese occupation had cornerstones that dated them to only 10-20 years old. They used whatever was available that got the project done and pride was NOT evident in their work. Having seen this first hand I wouldn't buy it and I wouldn't build with it. Just my .02 kuai yuan.
Now that explains a lot! Now imagine what they glue it up with in that environment.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Whatever glue it is, they don't typically use enough of it. The China ply is such garbage quality that it'll likely cost several times more than domestic as it does all sorts of bizarre unexpected stuff when you cut into it.

Complete false economy.

C'mon, Peter. Don't sugar coat it - tell us what you really think. :p

I'm on your side here - and Scott's - you pay for cheap, and you get cheap. The only thing you are not allowed to do is to gripe about getting exactly what you paid for.

Robert - - "Go Broke" paying for the good stuff.........Well - you need to consider the total cost - which is not just the "out-the-door" receipt.

[Peter Kelly]

I got to see some plywood 'factories' in Guizhou Province last time I was in China. The plies were stood up on one end next to the owners' houses, in a rack and left to bow and twist at will. I didn't get to see them actually glue any up, but if the process was like everything else done in the area it was done at home or on the street by 1-2 individuals with whatever tools they had available, then sold to whoever would buy it. In town there was a shop that built chrome store fixtures on the sidewalk in front of their shop, welding them together all while pedestrians walked by and stepped over their work. The carpet place next door pulled their racks out into the street and blocked traffic to cut from a roll. Civil construction skills were pretty shabby, and buildings that looked to have survived the Japanese occupation had cornerstones that dated them to only 10-20 years old. They used whatever was available that got the project done and pride was NOT evident in their work. Having seen this first hand I wouldn't buy it and I wouldn't build with it. Just my .02 kuai yuan.

Make sense. I've found a pretty sizeable clump of what looked like human hair between the delaminated plies of a sheet.

Was not a good day in the shop.

[John Bishop]

The plywood isn't so cheap when you get a cabinet box all assembled and then have a huge section delaminate when finishing. I tried it once and had so many issues I said never again. My time is worth too much. Now I always point out to customers that I'm using US and Canadian Plywoods vs. cheaper Chinese, PureBond glue vs. ??? glue, and they are willing to pay a little more for that alone.

[Peter Kelly]

C'mon, Peter. Don't sugar coat it - tell us what you really think. :p

I'm on your side here - and Scott's - you pay for cheap, and you get cheap. The only thing you are not allowed to do is to gripe about getting exactly what you paid for.

Robert - - "Go Broke" paying for the good stuff.........Well - you need to consider the total cost - which is not just the "out-the-door" receipt.In my defense, there was a time some years ago when a certain big box retailer sold China ply without country of origin labelling. Price was the same as the domestic stuff - $72 or so for a sheet for "birch". I only realized what was going on once I started sizing the material. I guess a $72 lesson in what to look for.

[Bryan Wiesendahl]

I got to see some plywood 'factories' in Guizhou Province last time I was in China. The plies were stood up on one end next to the owners' houses, in a rack and left to bow and twist at will. I didn't get to see them actually glue any up, but if the process was like everything else done in the area it was done at home or on the street by 1-2 individuals with whatever tools they had available, then sold to whoever would buy it. In town there was a shop that built chrome store fixtures on the sidewalk in front of their shop, welding them together all while pedestrians walked by and stepped over their work. The carpet place next door pulled their racks out into the street and blocked traffic to cut from a roll. Civil construction skills were pretty shabby, and buildings that looked to have survived the Japanese occupation had cornerstones that dated them to only 10-20 years old. They used whatever was available that got the project done and pride was NOT evident in their work. Having seen this first hand I wouldn't buy it and I wouldn't build with it. Just my .02 kuai yuan.

I doubt that's actually the gold standard for what a Chinese mill looks like. The chinese aren't stupid, aren't short of man power nor do they enjoy producing crap. They work with their customers (the HD's and Lowes of the world) to build what they will pay for. When HD says "we want a 35$ sheet of 3/4 Pine, and we want to pay 10$ for it" they listen, and they build for their customer. It's not a china problem, it's a big box store problem.

Every phone is made in China, and made in clean room conditions. They're capable of the best, but they're also willing to get dirty for the lowest level product we create a market for.

[Justin Ludwig]

Virtually ALL the cabinet builders around here use china birch as their box building material. I upgraded 2 years ago to using a Maple D3, made by Mountain View and Cedar Creek. I pay $12 more per sheet, but don't care. I couldn't handle the china crap any longer.

It's cured with formaldehyde. That's the stink and that's why a splinter festers so quickly and badly. My distributor's delivery driver tells me horror stories about the days they have to unload the rail cars full of various China ply.

[scott vroom]

I doubt that's actually the gold standard for what a Chinese mill looks like. The chinese aren't stupid, aren't short of man power nor do they enjoy producing crap. They work with their customers (the HD's and Lowes of the world) to build what they will pay for. When HD says "we want a 35$ sheet of 3/4 Pine, and we want to pay 10$ for it" they listen, and they build for their customer. It's not a china problem, it's a big box store problem.

Every phone is made in China, and made in clean room conditions. They're capable of the best, but they're also willing to get dirty for the lowest level product we create a market for.

My local lumber yards and hardwood/sheet goods suppliers all carry Chinese crap as an alternative to their quality domestic so no it's not limited to big box stores.

[Cody Colston]

Methinks this thread is just to get people on their high-horse and generate a bunch of replies. If you want quality, pay for it. If you want cheap, don't cry about it afterwards.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Pine ply eh? I just saw some new Chinese pine ply at HD and was wondering about it. At $30/sheet for 3/4" (or was it 34?) seemed like a good deal. Didn't look as screwed up as China ply often does.What you were looking at is from CHILE, not China. Bought a sheet today to do some repairs on sink base bottom. It's good stuff. I use it for substrate when building counter tops.

[Peter Quinn]

My time and tools are worth way more than a sheep of plywood. I don't have a sense of the total "chinese plywood" market, I'm sure they make a range of quality levels from garbage to almost excellent, though I've yet to encounter the almost excellent. I just have to believe they are capable of it. For me its about certainty. I'd rather pay $60-$95/sheet and be certain I have a quality I can work with, or as certain as one can be, than save a few hundred dollars on a job just to spend more than a few hundred dollars in labor hours repairing/replacing that work due to material failure. The lower end of the chinese ply standards is simply below my acceptable threshold and I can't risk winding up there. I've had the displeasure of finding out my plywood was delaminating at the finishing stage...maybe it had finally dried out in my shop? It will take some convincing before I trust Chinese plywood again.

I wonder if you shop for a dentist the same way you shop for plywood? What, should I go broke with these fillings...when this guy in the alley with the strange colored metal amalgams he's mixing up in his van are 1/3 less? He does root canals too!

[John Schweikert]

The worst issue I have had with China birch ply was in January after building a 24 foot long banquette, I started priming and painting. The outer lamination bubbled up terribly. I had never seen anything like it before. I let my local lumber yard/sheet good supplier know it was crap. They drooped their head in shame knowing well good it was crap. I won't buy that stuff again, at least not there.

At another rough lumber supplier I use, I've bought both Baltic Birch ply and China Birch. The China Birch they had wasn't bad at all. I was quite surprised at near void free, thicker outer lam than most other sheets I've seen. Those sheets have held up well. Of course the BB sheets were top notch.

[Victor Robinson]

What you were looking at is from CHILE, not China. Bought a sheet today to do some repairs on sink base bottom. It's good stuff. I use it for substrate when building counter tops.

The stuff at my HD was from China, brand called Taraco or something. It was not the Chilean arauco ply, which I agree is really good stuff.

[Robert Engel]

You know something , Scott, after reading your post I've decided "the heck with it" I'm not gonna do it anymore.
I gonna check on domestic maple if its only 10 or 12 bucks a sheet more I'm going with that even if it is just for cabinet boxes.

The Chinese pine from HD I made some shop cabs out of it.
The outer veneer is like 1/128" thick so if you edge it, beware.

I notice a tag on some 1/4 I was using for drawer bottoms "made in Ecuador" actually wasn't such bad stuff.
Another one said "Chile" and it was pretty good too.

Wait till China starts making OSB -- or have they already??

[Lee Schierer]

Guys, lets not let this get out of hand. I think the topic has been adequately discussed, lets move on....

[scott vroom]

You know something , Scott, after reading your post I've decided "the heck with it" I'm not gonna do it anymore.
I gonna check on domestic maple if its only 10 or 12 bucks a sheet more I'm going with that even if it is just for cabinet boxes.



I should mention too that for FF base cabs I often use domestic D-3 Maple which costs around $48.

Several comments above re: delamination or bubbling when finishing. I've experienced that on domestic stock as well. I discussed with Columbia Forest Products and they acknowledged it can occur when laying down a heavy initial coat of water based finish. Their suggestion was to go thin on the initial primer coat(s).

[Ken Fitzgerald]

For the record guys, there are a number of lumber mills in Idaho including at least one here in the town where I live.

I seldom buy anything at our local HD. The local lumber yards proudly advertise they sell local lumber and frankly the quality isn't there either. In fact, all the local lumber yards don't carry the foreign made plywood. High-grading through stacks of 1/2" local made plywood at the local lumber yards becomes a lesson in selecting that which is warped the least. I have been struggling to build drawer boxes for my outfeed table with 1/2" plywood manufactured in Idaho.

A local cabinet shop owner has offered to sell me 1/2" Baltic birch 5'x5' sheets at his cost. For the furniture I build, that is what I will use in the future.

[scott vroom]

Ken, I've found Columbia sheet goods to be very good quality. All 3 hardwood suppliers I use carry it as does my local lumber yard. Is Columbia not available in your area?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I don't remember seeing it here locally. Again....most of the lumberyards here proudly use products from the surrounding area.

Right now, I have been struggling to get a piece 19"x18" 1/2 plywood flat enough to use as a drawer bottom and not distort the drawers. Even with tight fitting dados, the warp in some of it is so terrible the warped bottom distorts the box. It is frustrating!

The one place in town that carried a good, reasonably priced 3/4" oak plywood went out of business. The owner got involved in local politics and got out of touch with his customers. All the contractors quit using his place of business and he was forced to close.

There are currently 3 local lumberyards in town. A new one is where I bought the least warped plywood but I had to high-grade through a stack for the least warped. None of it was what I consider good.

There is a another one that is part of a very small regional chain. They sell poor quality wood and won't allow the buyer to high grade so I don't shop there at all.

There 3rd one is across the Snake River in Clarkston, WA. I have bought lumber there and metal roofing. I plan on checking with them as a possible source for 3/4" oak plywood as I have a bathroom vanity and accessories to build. I am hoping they have what I need.

My hardwood supplier of choice is 30 miles north of here in Moscow, Idaho. I buy hardwoods from him and I can get them in my SUV. I will check there the next time I go up which will be shortly. I will be needing oak millwork and lumber to finish out with our new kitchen remodel and window replacement.

Of course, there is our local HD. I seldom go in there unless I absolutely have to shop there.

[Peter Kelly]

If you can find a BHK distributor (Würth) the 1/2" solid maple, beech and plywood drawer blanks are very good. I think most of it is pre-finished so it saves a few steps.

[rudy de haas]

About three years ago I used strips of cheap made-in-China 3/8th playwood to create channels for a floor heating cable to go under travertine. I had ordered a decent cable, but the supplier substituted a chinese product and reduced the price enough so I used it.. i laid the cable, filled the channels, and laid the travertine - since my strips were only about 1/2" apart laying the travertine flat was easy and I was very happy with the job for about six weeks. Then the heating failed.

When I dug up a piece it turned out that the plywood had expanded, exuded something white-ish, and the insulation on the cable had rotted. I had to replace all of the travertine that had cable under it. The cable people blamed the plywood people, the plywood people blamed the cable people - and I blame me for agreeing to buy the stuff in the first place.

[Dave Gagnon]

I have used Chinese plywood for shop cabinets. I wouldn't use it for anything else. if you do use it, then don't expect to sand it as you'll sand right through it the second you touch sand paper to it. It seems that we all agree, if you want quality, pay for it. If you want cheap, then you can go that route too.. I'm happy to have the option of both.

[Myk Rian]

I doubt that's actually the gold standard for what a Chinese mill looks like. The chinese aren't stupid, aren't short of man power nor do they enjoy producing crap. They work with their customers (the HD's and Lowes of the world) to build what they will pay for. When HD says "we want a 35$ sheet of 3/4 Pine, and we want to pay 10$ for it" they listen, and they build for their customer. It's not a china problem, it's a big box store problem.
The way I understand it is the managers negotiate the product. Supervisors direct the workers, and they put out a product they have been told to make.
The problem comes when the workers notice trouble with the method, and they say nothing to the Supervisors because it isn't their job. So, problems never get reported to upper management.


Every phone is made in China, and made in clean room conditions. They're capable of the best, but they're also willing to get dirty for the lowest level product we create a market for.
My Samsung Galaxy SIII was made in Korea. Where the company is based.

[Frederick Skelly]

My local lumber yards and hardwood/sheet goods suppliers all carry Chinese crap as an alternative to their quality domestic so no it's not limited to big box stores.

+1. Of course they do - because, at the current time, people BUY that stuff. Your local yard sells what the market wants or they go under. Mine too.