pattern cutter for shaper

[jim mills]

Looking to invest in a "shelix" type cutter for pattern cutting on my shaper and need suggestions. Spindle is 1 1/4". I would like to be able to flip the head and feed from both directions. If I buy a Byrd head it will be down cutting spinning one way, and when fliped, it will be up cutting. Not good.. Do they make a left & right spiral head? Should I consider a different head, that has staggered teeth, but not a shearing cutting edge?

[Mark Wooden]

Looking to invest in a "shelix" type cutter for pattern cutting on my shaper and need suggestions. Spindle is 1 1/4". I would like to be able to flip the head and feed from both directions. If I buy a Byrd head it will be down cutting spinning one way, and when fliped, it will be up cutting. Not good.. Do they make a left & right spiral head? Should I consider a different head, that has staggered teeth, but not a shearing cutting edge?

Look into cutterheads with carbide insert knives like a Leitz or Leuco, Amana has them also. If you don't need more than 2" heigt, you can get a rabbetting head with spurs, they're also stackable.

[Peter Quinn]

Looking to invest in a "shelix" type cutter for pattern cutting on my shaper and need suggestions. Spindle is 1 1/4". I would like to be able to flip the head and feed from both directions. If I buy a Byrd head it will be down cutting spinning one way, and when fliped, it will be up cutting. Not good..

Uh...why is this not good? Are you worried about uplift on pattern work? Its not really a concern, its not going to pull the work off the table. I do as much curved work as possible these days with the feeder anyway, take two wheels off, aim it across the butterhead toward the back of the table, works well on things were I don't have to stop half way, even then I can direct it back out of the cut if necessary. I think there are lots of good choices out there for segmented insert pattern heads. Byrd, amana, garniga, Leitz, those that Mark mentioned. I second the use a rabbit head for pattern cutting, Ive had great luck with a 4Z carbide insert head with straight inserts for more subtle curves in all but the most narly wood. Leaves a glass like surface when the knives are sharp, they stay sharp a long time and are very easy to flip or change as necessary. Mine is garniga, lots of choices there too.

Ive used a byrd head at a previous job, don't recall any issues feeding by hand from either direction, not sure what the nature of your reservation is? Many of the different makers have some type of helix involved.

[jim mills]

well i was told by someone that it is unsafe and not recomended to run the cutter in an upshear direction. If is not an issue, then that makes selection alot easier. I do have some taller stoc. Say 3.5" i want to cut. Are you sure the upcut orientation would not be an issue? I dont quite follow the concept of pattern cutting using a power feeder

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter is right, no issues flipping these Castor heads. We have a 100mm tall X 80 diameter. It is useful for tight radius work but find our 4 knife 5" tall Tersa head and Z4 rebate head leave a better finish and require less oomph to push. The Castor finish is very acceptable though and find it cuts against the grain with no issues.
Power feeders work great for curve work.
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[Peter Quinn]

well i was told by someone that it is unsafe and not recomended to run the cutter in an upshear direction. If is not an issue, then that makes selection alot easier. I do have some taller stoc. Say 3.5" i want to cut. Are you sure the upcut orientation would not be an issue? I dont quite follow the concept of pattern cutting using a power feeder

Joe's picture shows a pretty good example of power feed pattern cutting, I often just take off two wheels and run a single wheel in front of the cutter head so it's easier to direct the cut. It helps to have a starting point in the form of a pin, or curved block clamped to,the table, for outside curves just pulling the hood back can work well. The template is long and always engages the work first and last so you never risk a climb cut. It's a lot like pattern cutting freehand, you still guide the work around the curve, but the feeder provides the down and forward pressure. It makes for some pretty smooth cuts.

[Justin Ludwig]

I have the 3" Byrd. Non issue of reverse cutting with the inserts angled up.

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I made these half posts using the 3" Byrd. The posts are 5x5. I had to make two passes per side. One side was CW, the other was CCW rotation. Otherwise I would get tear out at the top of the post where the arc ends.

[jim mills]

thanks Justin, that's exactly what I had in mind.can somebody give me a source for the teresa head? Thanks for all the replies

[peter gagliardi]

If you do go straight knife head, Terminus is another option. terminus-stl.com
My pattern shaping is almost always done with a 160 mm diameter x 4" tall chicklet style head by Weinig that I got for my molder, but has only been used in it once. It practically lives on my shaper since I got the 1 1/2" spindle for ease of swapping an already set up molder head for straight runs into the shaper for the curved portion of jobs.
I have tried the feeder on curved work. It did work ok, but felt awkward to me, so I feed most curved by hand. I must need to refine my set up or technique.
Hand fed is not as safe, but if you have any grain change/tear out worries, it is more controllable in my opinion

[Mel Fulks]

That's the good thing about the old style pressure bars ,you can control speed,and change pressure pads to fit current
project.

[Joe Calhoon]

If you do go straight knife head, Terminus is another option. terminus-stl.com
My pattern shaping is almost always done with a 160 mm diameter x 4" tall chicklet style head by Weinig that I got for my molder, but has only been used in it once. It practically lives on my shaper since I got the 1 1/2" spindle for ease of swapping an already set up molder head for straight runs into the shaper for the curved portion of jobs.
I have tried the feeder on curved work. It did work ok, but felt awkward to me, so I feed most curved by hand. I must need to refine my set up or technique.
Hand fed is not as safe, but if you have any grain change/tear out worries, it is more controllable in my opinion

I think any insert type 4z head would work nice. The big Tersa head came with a used profiler bought used. I did not think about using it for curves until one time we were shaping some 5" thick knee braces for a timber framer. One thing, these larger diameter heads are nice but I have run into a lot of details where they are too big to follow the pattern. We had a Green & Green style job with cloud lift details and that is what prompted the small diameter spiral purchase. It could have been done with a router bit but I will walk a mile to avoid using routers when a shaper will work.

I find we use the feeder mostly for large work. We build some large windows and doors, usually 3" or so thick. Small one off work is usually by hand feed. I used to spend a lot of time making nice jigs with handles. Back in the 80s we had a line of Victorian doors with curve parts and made good jigs. We had a lot of repeats on those but anymore everything is one off and I make the jigs as simple as possible. So the feeder adds a margin of safety to my quick jigs.

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[Justin Ludwig]

Joe, I wish I lived close to you. I'd come work for months at a time for free just to learn.

[jim mills]

Ok, so I ended up getting a 3"w x 4" t byrd head. Not sure what speed to run this head at. It's only 3" dia, so at 10k, I'm only getting a rim speed of 7800fpm, but it has 5 rows of cutters, so I'm getting a lot of CPI.

[peter gagliardi]

Run it as slow as you can to get an acceptable finish. It should state what max rpms are on it. I run my head at 6000.
You will know if you run too slow by feel and sound pretty quickly.

[jim mills]

Peter, i ran it at 6k but to me it feels a bit slow. Im handfeeding some irregular shapes, an i got scared when i got into some tight inside radiuses.

[Joe Calhoon]

My 80mm diameter Oertli spiral insert cutter likes 9000 minimum. Anything less does not feel right. I think the one I have is designed for CNC routers. Cutter says max rpm 12000.

[jim mills]

Ok, so I got a 3" dia x 4" tall byrd cutter with a pilot bearing. I was making my second cut of several pattern cut curved pieces as illustrated in my crude drawing. It was cutting like butter....then wham! The cutter grabbed and kicked back, nearly sending the piece through a block wall. The pieces were 3" tall, about 18" long curly maple, and rather thin, about 1/2" at the thin end, 1" at the other end. The pieces fit solidly in the jig, and were secured with destaco clamps. The force broke the stop block off the jig, and the jig was heavy enough that I didnt even feel it when it happened. This is the first shaper incident I have ever experienced. I'd feel a lot better if I knew what I did wrong.
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[Justin Ludwig]

Sounds to me like you're taking too deep a pass? How much stock are you removing? I remove all but 1/16 to 1/8 material with a band saw. I tried leaving a bit more and things got scary.

[Mike Cutler]

JIm

If I'm looking at it correctly, it would appear that you began to cut into the grain and "caught" the grain as you were shaping the curved section.

If the curve is sweeping like in the pic, and you were feeding right to left, the curved portion should have been the first to meet the cutter, not last. This way you are cutting with the grain throughout the curve.

Just a thought.

[jim mills]

Sounds to me like you're taking too deep a pass? How much stock are you removing? I remove all but 1/16 to 1/8 material with a band saw. I tried leaving a bit more and things got scary.


JIm

If I'm looking at it correctly, it would appear that you began to cut into the grain and "caught" the grain as you were shaping the curved section.

If the curve is sweeping like in the pic, and you were feeding right to left, the curved portion should have been the first to meet the cutter, not last. This way you are cutting with the grain throughout the curve.

Just a thought.

Lud, yes, I was probably taking 1/4" cut, but it was cutting like butter, and my feed-rate was pretty slow.

Mike, I began the cut in the middle of the board, going right to left, then I flipped the cutter and was finishing the cut left to right. I was about 3" from finishing the cut.


PS. Did notice that there is a broken tooth on the cutter head. Could have happened when the piece kicked back, but what if it broke while cutting and caused the incident?!?!

[Joe Calhoon]

Jim, what RPM? Mine is a different brand but like I said does not like less than 9000. I have also found this head does not like 1/4" on thick work. We usually go 1/8" over our normal 1/4" for our other cutters.

1/2" is pretty thin on the one end and at that height the Destaco might not be enough. That thin, the shaper jig may need a full height piece where the back of the workpiece is. Can you leave the workpiece long and catch it with screws into the backer? Carefully countersunk to avoid the cutter. Possibly a shim spacer on the jig to make the cut in a couple passes.

We normally cut one direction with this head and I would go from the thick end to the thin. But I have never used it on curly maple.

Just some ideas. with small pieces it is all about supporting the work.

[Mel Fulks]

Curly maple that has been carefully picked is big loss if ruined. Again I mention the old spring hold downs that all shops,around here,used to have. Guess they just are not high tech enough now. With one,I would use traditional collars or corg heads with M2 or T1 and safely climb cut.

[jim mills]

Jim, what RPM? Mine is a different brand but like I said does not like less than 9000. I have also found this head does not like 1/4" on thick work. We usually go 1/8" over our normal 1/4" for our other cutters.

1/2" is pretty thin on the one end and at that height the Destaco might not be enough. That thin, the shaper jig may need a full height piece where the back of the workpiece is. Can you leave the workpiece long and catch it with screws into the backer? Carefully countersunk to avoid the cutter. Possibly a shim spacer on the jig to make the cut in a couple passes.

We normally cut one direction with this head and I would go from the thick end to the thin. But I have never used it on curly maple.

Just some ideas. with small pieces it is all about supporting the work.

Joe, 9000 RPM. The work WAS supported full height, and with four destaco's. I was wondering if the workpiece could have began to chatter towards the thin end, causing the cutter to grab. I just dont remember that happening.


Curly maple that has been carefully picked is big loss if ruined. Again I mention the old spring hold downs that all shops,around here,used to have. Guess they just are not high tech enough now. With one,I would use traditional collars or corg heads with M2 or T1 and safely climb cut.

Ruined? It's a pile of splinters at this point. We've gone over if for hours now. Two of us were feeding it slowly, the cut felt good, then WHAM...

[Mel Fulks]

One thing that helps on a square cut is rounding the top and bottom sharp corners before making the shaper run,either with a router 1/4 inch round over used climb cutting or an orbital sander. Used to be done often, some one here tried it recently and reported it worked. After the initial rounding ,the finish cut will usually work fine with standard forward cut.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jim,
At this point I can only suggest light cuts. Maybe 1/16" at a time. With that type cutter and 3" thick 1/4" removal is a lot.

We have shaped a lot of work that thick with ours but never that thin.

[Peter Quinn]

Sounds to me like the material got loose and started chatter, there are so many teeth in play on these things that an over feed happens way to quick to keep track of. Do you have any sandpaper on the bottom of the jig, opposite side of the destaco's? That can help give a little traction. When ever possible I go with Joe's suggestion to leave things a bit long and leave a place at each end in the waste for a solid connection with a fastener. Destaco's are great, screws are better. Short of that perhaps a vacuum clamp would keep the 1/2" material from fluttering? Complicates the jig, sure would be cool though! I did hundreds of small curved bars for radius doors last summer, had a few leave the jig.....by the 3rd one I figured out a solution, never got any less scary. I've taken out a 1/4" heavy before by keeping the template off the bearing a bit, shaving an 1/8 on the first pass then going again. You need to be somewhat cooridanated and somewhat stupid to try this as a bobble could turn into a climb cut, you don't want that. Better solution is to get a second bearing that is bigger than the cutter by 1/4" in diameter and use that to do the first pass. Last place I worked had the in 1/16" increments from 2" through 4 1/2", expensive but handy.

[Kevin Jenness]

All the suggestions so far are good- decrease the cut by pre-sawing, increase the blank length and screw it to the jig, add sandpaper to the jig base, increase the rpm, use the powerfeed if possible, use graduated bearings or adjustable rub collar to limit cut depth, use shims to make the cut in several passes in height. Two further thoughts: can you increase the blank width by shaping it from a larger piece and sawing off the excess (or temporarily adding a low value chunk to the blank with a glued joint)? and do you have a backstop to intercept flying blanks before they hit the wall or any personnel in the way? If none of the above works, you may want to consider outsourcing to a competent cnc operator. No guarantees there, but at least the kickbacks happen in someone else's shop. This is a tall cut in a thin piece-lots of cutting surface relative to available traction.

[John Lankers]

Interesting thread since I had the exact same issue a while back working with figured maple, in fact it ruined the whole workpiece. I bought a Sanding drum with matching bearing and that solved the problem right there and felt much safer.

[jim mills]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I still have this wierd feeling about the broken tooth, but i may just still be in denial. I dont mind admitting when i make a mistake, but i just wish i knew what it was. i'll do what i can to secure the board better, and do what it takes to take a lighter bite. I like the idea of over sized bearings.

[jack forsberg]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I still have this wierd feeling about the broken tooth, but i may just still be in denial. I dont mind admitting when i make a mistake, but i just wish i knew what it was. i'll do what i can to secure the board better, and do what it takes to take a lighter bite. I like the idea of over sized bearings.

What you did was use the wrong tool machine for the job. secondly you made no risk assessment if something went wrong. If you get any more than 2 to 3 inches around of any cutter(including chip limiting) in a tall cut it will pull you in. This should never have been hand feed and only then with special fixture with full support and wood of a less figured nature. All after a risk assessment is done .

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/JYSander003_zps028f96a9.jpg


here is how i deal with pattern shaping delicate large/tall work with a lot less brown in the trousers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhaa5MmnTE

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I still have this wierd feeling about the broken tooth, but i may just still be in denial. I dont mind admitting when i make a mistake, but i just wish i knew what it was. i'll do what i can to secure the board better, and do what it takes to take a lighter bite. I like the idea of over sized bearings.

Another thing that might help is some double stick tape, or turners tape, on the back of the work, at least at the 1/2" end. Its tricky to find the right tape that holds the work fast but lets it go when its over without destroying the jig upon removal. Having been there I'm fairly confident your mistake was insufficient stock control on the narrow end. A few destaco's? Almost no way they can hold back that much force. You need to clamp the snot out of that thin end, build the jig long to accommodate some hold down strategy. If you can still count to 10 with your shoes on its a good learning opportunity, brown trousers not withstanding.

Another option I've used for similar work....no shaper....bandsaw right to the line and compass plane to smooth. Machines aren't the best thing for everything!

[Joe Calhoon]

Kevin has a good idea - glue a block of cheap wood to the maple to make it more massive. It would still be a good idea to use a couple screws as the Destacos have some sideways movement.

I have done a lot of curve shaping with HSS corrugated and other HSS cutters. We only do this for one off work where carbide cost cannot be justified. It is no comparison to the insert carbide for quality and ease of shaping. I would never consider climb cutting curve work either.

Attached are a couple of poor quality videos of inside and outside shaping of a round window. The window is 2 5/8" thick. Inside cut done with Zuani insert tooling with stock cut 1/4" over taking the whole sticking cut in one pass. We use an adjustable Aigner dead collar. This was a simple cut and done in one pass. Sometimes we do 2 passes and with the adjustable dead collar this is easy. With this type cutter we rarely have any tearout even with the different grains. Modern tooling has eliminated the need for double spindle shapers.

The second video shows outside shaping of the window freehand with a spiral cutter and ball bearing. The stock is cut about 1/8" over for this. I could have used the feeder for this but it was easy by hand and this part of the window is buried in the wall. The cut was perfect with no tearout even at that. I should have been using the overhead guard - hold down on the fence for for this but wanted to show the cutting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZTXjJwOhy0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1BJ7sNPRn4

[jack forsberg]

Joe the work you show there is fairly straight forward and predictable grain. While the ring fence is nice for curve patterns the bearing works well to. The UK ring fence lets you come in contact with the pattern before the cut is engaged buy offsetting the sides of the rings.but a pin in the table lets you lead in too. In the case of the thin work that went bad here the pin would have been helpful. Better still a Pressure pad chip breaker hood in place of the ring fence and cutter with bearing is far superior for thin chatterer work that wants to pull in. the chip breaker(spring loaded) give a lead in (like a pin)and holds the work in the pattern with pressure on the face cut side as it ingauges before the bearing and cutter block start there cut. Just thought i mention it as i do not see it here as a fixture recommended for thin work.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/chip%20breakere%20fence_zpsvid7qgii.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/chip%20breakere%20fence_zpsvid7qgii.jpg.html)

you can get one at AMS in the UK if there not available in Germany. Sure don't want any one to get hurt thinking big cuts are easy and to take risks that they need not .
http://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/machinery/parts.asp?section=top-head-chipbreaker-pressure-pad-extraction-hood-485

[Joe Calhoon]

"Joe the work you show there is fairly straight forward and predictable grain."
Laminated African Mahogany in segments?

Jack, The Aigner will do everything you describe for thick and thin work. Have you used one? And will work with a bearing or adjustable dead collar. The starting guide even holds the bearing from spinning. See pictures. There are more hold ins available for this hood that I can show if anyone is interested. I also have the less expensive Yellow Euro curve hood if anyone wants pictures or comments on that.

The hood you show looks nice also. Why don't you post pictures of that hood in use at your shop?

Starting pins are not needed with the newer style curve setups. They don't even put them on newer Euro shapers anymore. I have plenty of experience with those from 20 years ago and don't care to ever go back to that system.

Yes, curve work is dangerous and should not be attempted without the proper knowledge and equiptment.

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