Use a shaper with a finger-joint jig?

[Allan Speers]

I just obtained a small spindle shaper in a package deal. It's small, old & basic but very well made. (An Atlas 3500.)

Understand that I have never owned or used neither a shaper nor a router table (I have a brand new 3.5 HP Milwaukee router sitting on the shelf for about 7 years !) I just have never needed one, since I use a lot of handplanes and also the Eurekazone router system for big stuff.

The one thing I'd love to have is a finger joint (box joint) jig, as used on tablesaws & router tables (I also have no TS any longer, having completely switched to my Eurekazone system) Something like the Incra:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/854034/INCRA-IBox-Jig-For-Box-Joints-Model-INCRA-IBox.aspx?keyword=103260202342product_type_l1power _tool_accessories%26custom0power_tool_accessories% 26custom1tab&refcode=10INGOPB&adpos=1o3&creative=65586873142&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQjw6tepBRDLqLnxouaY_pkBEiQAPIOiBk4cAb-kTRyMBPpiRTrDhNGlYmZBF2u2xSD7XTKAod4aAnV_8P8HAQ

So I'm thinking of keeping the shaper & using it for just this one thing. (and then it might come in handy for other stuff once in a while.) BUT WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND:

While such a jig work on this type of shaper? I dunno if there are different types, but this one has a fixed spindle, and the table adjusts up & down. I'm pretty sure router tables don't do this, right?

So ........ what's the deal here?

thanks.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Allan, finger joint jigs work by repositioning the work piece for each finger, you can't do that with a shaper easily, and the shaper might only be able to raise the cutter 3 or 4 inches above the table.

You can cut finger joints on a shaper if you have multiple cutters and spacers so that you can cut them all in one pass...........Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Allan

That's a cool looking little shaper table!:cool:

If you're looking to use it exclusively for finger joints, somehow or the other, it will need to be adapted to have a bit perpendicular to the table for use with that Incra Jig. Limited widths could be effected with shaper cutters, but would essentially be limited to the table change in height.
On larger shapers for a small shop, the spindle moves up and down and the table is stationary. On the one you have the table goes up and down and would appear to tilt from images on the internet. If it does tilt, that is really cool.
Many shapers can be fitted with a router spindle adapter.I don't know if there is one for this machine, or if one could be made. The manual refers to using it as a spindle sander somehow, so maybe there were attachments available at one time.

[Peter Quinn]

My guess is it can be done, but the jig you linked may be of little use for this operation. I'm thinking a sled that moves the wood past the cutter, with a backer fence and a series of plates to go beneath the stock and raise its position for each pass would work, you might extend the machines range by keeping things so you can work to the center then flip and come from the other side, that would require very careful stock prep. The plate thickness would equal the finger thickness.

[Mike Schuch]

To sum up the previous posters a shaper is not a good machine for cutting box joints. As they stated you could use a router bit holder in the shaper but a shaper turns a lot slower than a router and you will not get very good results. I would recommend using a table saw for box joints. It will be the quickest with the least tear out. Second to a table saw I would mount your router in a router table and use that for box joints.

Also you do not need a fancy $154 jig to cut good sharp box joints. I made my box joint jig for nothing with scraps I had laying around the shop and it works just as well as that fancy jig from Rockler. Just Google "DIY box joint jig" and you will find a hundred variations that can be made for practically nothing.

If you want to dedicate your shaper to a cool joint I would recommend dedicating it to a lock miter joint. Lock miters can be a little cumbersome to setup but if you leave the shaper setup for a lock miter then you will not need to go through the setup procedure each time you want to cut a lock miter joint.

[Peter Quinn]

To sum up the previous posters a shaper is not a good machine for cutting box joints..


I would qualify this assessment. A shaper can be an excellent tool for making box joints, possibly the best way to do them, but not the shaper the OP has listed. A big shaper with a slider, or a decent coping jig with tall fence, a tall spindle stacked with a finger joint cutter set...can be way quicker and more accurate than a TS with multiple chances to introduce inaccuracy. But in the case of a small hobby level machine, not impossible, but not easy. In this case Allan has no table saw, nor intention to get one, for the cost of a simple groover he could set up to do a few test cuts to prove or disprove the concept. I have a shaper that could easily do finger joints, but for the few that I do its not worth the tooling investment for the cutter stack. IN this case I'd probably go after a router set up too as the cutter cost is probably lower.

[Jesse Busenitz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZPokiLpw34 WARNING!!!! this video is not for the fain of heart....

[Allan Speers]

Lots of good thoughts here. Thanks guys.

Yeah, I will not be getting a tablesaw, and I have no other need for a router table, so it's this little beast or nothing.

But I hear ya' on the potential drawbacks. As I see it, (assuming I can mount router bits at all) the biggest problem is the speed. However, It would be extremely easy to just change the motor pulley, as there's a ton of room. Heck, I could even mount a spare 1 HP motor I have on the shelf. (The original motor, which runs great, is only 1/2 HP.)

I could easily make a slider, since the table has a miter slot, and the "back" edge could reference the back of the shaper's table.

Actually, I really like this design, as it completely eliminates any sideways slop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEeWSepGqYI
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZfzLHa1LKE
----------------------------

I'm intrigued by Mike’s idea to dedicate the machine to lock miter joints. - Except I’ve never used such a joint in my life, and don’t know if they would really benefit my work at all. gotta’ investigate that one ….

[Allan Speers]

Rod, you said "... and the shaper might only be able to raise the cutter 3 or 4 inches above the table."

At first, I didn't understand why this was a problem, since I only need 1/2" maximum cut "depth." )

But I just tried to mount a 1/2" shank router bit into my shaper, and of course it became pretty obvious! (don't laugh, I never saw a shaper before.)

So now I understand why a 1/2" bore shaper would need an adapter collet. And I understand why the height becomes critical. Tomorrow I'll take a better look, but I don't think the table will raise high enough to clear the collet. The specs say it only has 2" of vertical travel.

- and cutting the spindle would probably be absurd.....

Also probably not a good use of my time, but I wonder if I could remove the spindle from its bearings, and completely replace it with some kind of router collet spindle?

[Mike Schuch]

On most shapers I am familiar with you do not mount a router adapter on top of the spindle... you remove the spindle and replace it with a spindle made for holding router bits. A router collet mounted on the end of the 1/2" spindle puts the cutting surfaces of the router bit very far away from the spindle support bearings causing the bearings to support a lot of side loaded force (Not a good thing). Some shapers have an optional router bit spindle that keeps the router bits close to the spindle bearings... and some shaper don't have such a spindle. I think your will have a hard time finding a router bit spindle for your Atlas shaper... but it is possible one might be available.

Bearings are rated for a particular speed. You could easily double the speed of your shaper by swapping out a pulley but it is likely you will be running the spindle bearings much faster than they are designed to run. I wouldn't expect any dramatic gernading with bits of metal flying all over the place when your bearings fail. I would expect a perfectly good shaper to be ruined and new bearings might or might not be easy to come by.

I hope with a little better explanation you now understand that your shaper is not really the right tool for the job you want to use it for?


You missed the significance of the spindle height and it is not what your are envisioning being the problem. Rod was talking about running a shaper cutter with the profile of the box joint extending vertically from the table. (Put a 1/2" tall 3" diameter cutter on the spindle, add a 1/2" tall 2" diameter spacer. Stack three more 3" diameter cutters with 2" diameter spacers between them on the spindle to get the profile I am talking about.) So if you had a shaper cutter stack with a profile to cut 1/2" wide by 1/2" deep dados and the shaper cutter stack was 4" tall you could cut all four 1/2" groves in your stock with a single pass but you would be limited to boxes 4 inches tall. Even if your shaper is able to raise the spindle 4" above the table a 1/2" spindle shaper is not designed to handle a cutter with a 4" tall cutting surface. A 1/2" spindle shaper is simply not equipped to handle such a tall cutter. Rod was correct that this would be a very nice way to cut box joints in a 1000 pieces of stock to quickly assemble 250 boxes if you had a big burly shaper... but it is not really applicable to your shaper at all.

312013

You should also be aware that finger joints are not the same thing as box joints. Finger joint cutters cut fingers that are thicker at one end than at the other end and are only good for joining boards end to end... not at right angles to each other like a box joint. Kind of hard to explain but a picture is worth a 1000 words:
312014

[Jesse Busenitz]

You should also be aware that finger joints are not the same thing as box joints. Finger joint cutters cut fingers that are thicker at one end than at the other end and are only good for joining boards end to end... not at right angles to each other like a box joint. Kind of hard to explain but a picture is worth a 1000 words:


Ahhh... Sorry I misunderstood the OP here.

[Allan Speers]

Great stuff, Mike. thanks. Most of the fog has finally lifted.


Well, I really wanted to find a use for this little shaper. I guess not.

I can't even find a 1/2" bore lock miter cutter. The smallest available seems to be 3/4"


Nuts ....

[Mike Schuch]

You are welcome, I am glad you have a better understanding now! :)

There are lots of things that shapers are great for... your intended use just isn't really one that fits your shaper well. Lock-Miter joints are really cool joints for making boxes and your shaper should cut them nicely. BUT definitely read up on lock miter joints before running out and buying a cutter. MANY people have been VERY FRUSTRATED by lock miter joints.

312015

[Mike Schuch]

I can't even find a 1/2" bore lock miter cutter. The smallest available seems to be 3/4"


Sorry, I missed that part of your post. I would feel comfortable running my 3/4" bore lock miter bit (Grizzly) on a 1/2" spindle with a couple 1/2" to 3/4" T bushings. It is about as large a cutter I would want to run on a 1/2" spindle shaper but similar lock miter bits are run on table mounted routers. I will let the rest of this board blast me on whether this is safe or not but I believe it is.

I love lock miter joints and they are the reason I got my first shaper. LET ME RESTATE; MORE THAN A FEW PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY FRUSTRATED TRYING TO GET A LOCKMITER BIT SETUP PROPERLY! Please research lockmiters before buying a cutter! :o Also, check your neighbors trash... if there is a shaper cutter in their trash it is probably a lockmiter cutter!

[Alan Schaffter]

Those who have problems setting up lock miter bits (bit height and fence position) obviously don't have Infinity's Lock Miter Master set-up jig! Read all the reviews, its da bomb! (works with most brands of lock miter router bit or shaper cutter as long as the carbide is a radius or close to a radius, but not a chord).

http://www.infinitytools.com/images/00-LMM_Large.jpg

As far as box joints go. If you would rather use a stacked slot bit and don't want to get an I-BOX, cut one side of the "A" ends with edge "1" down, then flip the board, edge-for-edge, adjust the bit so the top slot cutter fits precisely in the last slot made previously, and make a second pass on the "A" ends. Now set up to cut the "B" ends- use the same 2-step process. That will allow you to cut box joints almost as wide as twice the height of your stacked bit. A precision setup is essential.