Table saw advice

[Bob Beasley]

Hi Group!

I've got a new project and need some advice on a table saw. First the project:

Front Yard:

http://bobbeasley.com/oakhaven/oakhavenS1.png

Front porch:
http://bobbeasley.com/oakhaven/oakhavenS2.png

Inside:
http://bobbeasley.com/oakhaven/oakhavenS3.png

I'll be building kitchen cabinets. I'd rather buy a new saw as I wouldn't trust myself to know a good used one from a worn out one. I've got a Lowes in town and there's always the Internet. My budget is $400.00. Cruising the local store there are several brands in my price range. Bosh and Cobalt are two I remember. What features should I be looking for? Thanks!

[Art Mann]

First, let me say what an interesting project you have there. I really like the environment. I haven't had a lot of experience with jobsite table saws but I have yet to buy a Bosch tool of any kind that I did not like. I know there are a lot of similar saws for sale, but i just trust the brand.

[Ray Newman]

You did not say if you had any woodworking experience. If you do not, the first thing I suggest is that you look around for woodworking stores/suppliers, the local Adult Ed, community college, etc., offering classes. This will save you time, effort, money, your frustration level, etc., when you start your project.

As for a table saw recommendation in your price range, I hazard to guess what would be a satisfactory unit.

[Bob Beasley]

27 years ago I could build a square box out of plywood. I guess that was my high water mark as far as wood working skills go. I've got lot's of patience and no dead lines to meet.

The house is a 1894, mostly unmolested, cypress Acadian Cottage.

[John Schweikert]

Bosch 4000 or 4100 and Dewalt has several. Not sure where you live but those pop up on most local craigslists at decent prices.

A working riving knife is good for added safety as well as anti-kickback pawls.

Also a good long straightedge and a skilsaw will help breakdown sheet goods for a reasonable price.

[Scott Hearn]

Good Lord, what a beautiful place. If that's out in the woods all alone consider me jealous.

As to your saw. Bosch! No question. I have a Delta Unisaw and still want their newest jobsite saw. lol But seriously it's a good saw.

[scott spencer]

A full size saw will have the lion's share of advantage over a portable. If you don't NEED the portability of a jobsite saw, I'd look to a full size cast iron saw with a belt drive induction motor. Lowes sells the Delta 36-725 that's getting pretty good reviews so far, and a has a good fence....it retails for ~ $550, but discounts can help put you into range. You gain a much larger "landing area" in front of the blade to get wood settled prior to the cut....that's safer and more accurate. It'll also be heavier and more stable, is much quieter, has more torque, better dust collection, should be more reliable, and should be more feasible to fix in the event of a failure. It's also more upgradeable than a portable. If it's got to be portable, the Bosch, DW, and Ridgid are the perennial top dogs. The ABCs of Tablesaws (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/32154)

A good blade and good alignment are key factors in any of them. Take your time to get the setup right, and don't cheap out on the blade. Save the stock blade for junk cuts and high risk materials.

http://lowes.ugc.bazaarvoice.com/0534/894334/photo.jpg

[John Schweikert]

I owned a Bosch 4100 for 3 years. I had it tuned to where it was as accurate as any cabinet saw. It never hindered me in any way when it came to accuracy. So for the budget mentioned, there are very capable options out there. Considering Delta is a shell of a company it once was and parts are a known issue, there are other companies thriving with excellent products.

[Rich Riddle]

I own a Bosch 4100 as a job site saw and it works well. That said, there isn't much room in front of the blade so plywood presents an issue. It falls well within your budget and has plenty of available parts.

[Allan Speers]

At $400 all-in, including blades & such, I seriously think you should consider a tracksaw system. Festool is out of your price range, but a basic Eurekazone system plus a used circular saw + 2 good blades and you'll just about make it.

With a tracksaw, you will have a much easier time with those big sheets of plywood needed for kitchen cabinets.

You won't be able to do dadoes, but then you can't with a tablesaw, either, for $400.

[Mike Chalmers]

You won't be able to do dadoes, but then you can't with a tablesaw, either, for $400.

????????. Doesn't ring true to me.

[scott spencer]

Bob - If you'd post your general location, someone here might have, or be able to guide you through the purchase of a good used saw that's better than a new saw in the same price range.

[Jim Dwight]

If you really want a tablesaw I would look for a used Ryobi BT3100. It is the size of a jobsite saw but you can get extension rails to give it over 60 inch rip capacity. I think most jobsite saws will be very frustrating to use for cabinet building. Their rip capacity is small (will they even do 24" for base cabinets?) and their top surface is small and the sheet goods are hugely bigger. I know you do not want to go used but the saws in your price range will be marginal at best for what you mention in projects (cabinets).

As has been mentioned, a track saw is much better for cutting up sheet goods. I have a BT3100 but built a cabinet last weekend using only my DeWalt tracksaw. It is outside your price range too but the Grizzly would be well under $400, you could get it and enough track to make cabinets. You will also need a worksurface and I highly recommend parallel guides. Ron Paulk has some excellent plans for a worksurface ideal for tracksaws. Plans are about $20. Parallel guides for a Grizzly will be a build it yourself kind of thing but that fits your budget. I would look at the Precision Dogs website for their version for the Festool and maybe the Seneca website for ideas. I built mine for my DeWalt and they work well. Because my track is different I had to make them a different way but they really add repeatability and precision and speed to the task of ripping up sheet goods for cabinets. I got more accurate pieces than I ever did on my table saw and with a lot less effort. The Grizzly tracks are not identical to the Festool but are the same idea. A wooden head on Inca track would make parallel guides for a Grizzly.

[Bill Adamsen]

Good advice here. Ray's advice of getting connected with a local community program makes sense. That would give you the time and connections to possibly find a tried and true (used) cabinet saw that could well be in that price range, and might even come with a selection of blades!

Thinking "outside the box" ... I have a little jobsite tablesaw by Ryobi (and a Unisaw and bigger full-sheet Euro Slider) which is great to use when and where the other saws can't be taken. I've had other jobsite saws in the past - Makita, Hitachi - and they all work pretty well with the expected limitations. When necessary, they have been used to build cabinets. More importantly, they are transportable, easy to put away, and easy on the wallet. Not sure if any of them could do a dado (never considered trying). Not sure if that is a requirement for you. I see a video where someone built a dado "top" for what looks like the same Ryobi I have ... it covers some of the challenges, like the fact the saw's top insert is difficult to mimic. People are so incredibly creative!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHwDWYNbVmU

[Bob Beasley]

Thanks for all the input! I think I'll squeeze that piggy bank a little tighter and go for the Bosch 4100.

[John Donhowe]

+1 on Scott's comments. As you're planning on building cabinets, I assume that you'll be cutting a lot of plywood. I think that unless you already have a lot of experience cutting sheet goods, using a relatively light weight job site saw with a small table surface is risking inaccurate cuts and possibly danger. Personally, I'd much prefer using a full size, hybrid or even contractor scale saw. It's easier to handle large pieces on the bigger table, and with greater saw weight, stiffness and base area, they're not nearly as tippy as a portable job site saw.

While you sound reluctant to buy a used saw, you should be able to pick up a decent used saw on CL for $400. I think you'd be able to tell a really abused saw pretty easily from external appearances- in most cases a clean looking saw hasn't been mistreated by its owner. Maybe a friend with some experience would be willing to help out. Also, there always seems to be advice on this forum if you post links about possible used buys.

For an essentially new affordable hybrid saw, check out searsoutlet.com Their 22116 hybrid can be found a some locations for as little as $440. I was lucky to find a display model for that price a couple of months ago, and have been extremely happy with it: accurate easy cuts, relatively quiet, plenty of power for me, and absolutely rock solid. Several loose parts were missing ("liberated"), but the dept mgr said they could order any missing parts if I purchased the Sears protection plan. (Turned out the the missing parts- miter gauge and saw guard- were too much of a hassle for them to order that the dept mgr later knocked $200 more off the price. I already have a decent miter gauge, and the riving knife wasn't missing, so I didn't really miss them. Just saying as a possible choice for you.

[Rob Duke]

Hi Group!

I've got a new project and need some advice on a table saw. First the project:

Inside:
http://bobbeasley.com/oakhaven/oakhavenS3.png

I'll be building kitchen cabinets. I'd rather buy a new saw as I wouldn't trust myself to know a good used one from a worn out one. I've got a Lowes in town and there's always the Internet. My budget is $400.00. Cruising the local store there are several brands in my price range. Bosh and Cobalt are two I remember. What features should I be looking for? Thanks!

Good luck building cabinets on those curved walls. :D

[Tim Streagle]

I'm back into the hobby after a long twenty year hiatus, and found Scott's "ABC's of tablesaws to be right on target. Read it and digest. If your budget is ironclad then you will be limited to a smaller portable saw if you must buy new. Buying new may be the smart way to go if you have little experience and want to avoid getting a used lemon. Perhaps the most important question we could ask is, "Where are you going to be using the saw?" If it must be used inside the home a portable saw is most attractive. If you have a dedicated, permanent work space it would suggest a more permanent saw, i.e. stationary.

Building kitchen cabinets is a big undertaking for a beginning woodworker. Much depends on your definition of acceptable quality work. This will indeed involve A LOT of cabinet grade plywood for carcasses and careful milling of solids for face frames and drawers. How many cabinets are we talking about? The investment in a table saw should probably be accompanied with a suitable router and insert if possible. The Delta pictured above would be an ideal solution. Don't know about the particular saw or current Delta reputation.

I was in your shoes two years ago when I left the east coast for Idaho. I brought few tools with me and left all my stationary tools there. Checking CL and other online classifieds resulted in me scoring an older Rockwell contractor saw w/ 52 inch Biesmeyer fence and a Grizzly 15 inch planar, both on wheels for $300. A little TLC and they are running sweetly. I see these types of deals come and go - if you can wait a little bit and have a rudimentary knowledge of saws you could score big too. If you are pressed for time and want new the portable saw, it may get you through. You will also learn why larger stationary saws with belted motors and robust fences are valued so highly.

The time taken to set up a saw for each cut and the repeatability of this operation is what eats my time and patience. That is why I think the rip fence is the most important part of the saw. Don't settle for a lightweight, flimsy fence. Beware of fences that require you to tighten them with a screw handle - they usually never tighten securely enough. I've had them simply break the aluminum castings. Cam lock handles are better. My favorite fence is the old Delta Unifence (yes, even more than all the Biesmeyer copies I ever used). Cross cuts are best done on a sled, but I do most cross cuts on my table saw with sheet goods until the piece becomes too narrow for safety.

Safety is key. Make guards from plexi or lexan if you don't have suitable factory guards. Many small portable saws have poor safety features. You will know if something is unsafe, because it will feel unsafe. My wife works in the shop with me and keeps me honest using guards. Feather boards, push sticks, et al, will be easy to make and can save you from an accident. Take the time to use them.

Again, get a saw with a decent rip fence...

Good Luck and post your results!

[Allan Speers]

????????. Doesn't ring true to me.


You can buy a decent tablesaw AND a good dado bladeset, for $400?

Where do you live, 1960's -ville?

[Mike Chalmers]

You can buy a decent tablesaw AND a good dado bladeset, for $400?

Where do you live, 1960's -ville?

Don't see any reference to buying dado blades. 1960's. Don't knock what you don't know.

[Rich Engelhardt]

You can buy a decent tablesaw AND a good dado bladeset, for $400?
DeWalt DW 745 and a 6" Oshlun come pretty close.

However....


I'll be building kitchen cabinets.
A table saw is just one of the many, many, many, many tools you'll need.

I really don't want to discourage you, but, before jumping right into a table saw, you might want to have a look at what all is going to be involved.

Are you going to make or buy the doors?
Face frames or frameless?

So many questions......

[Robert Engel]

A compact saw is not going to satisfy your needs.
A contractor saw can, but you really need a good fence when doing cabinet work.
With a $400 budget I would start looking for a used saw like a Delta/Rockwell they seem to be fairly available.

[Art Mann]

It is remarkable what people can do with what is regarded as inadequate tools if they have lots of patience and dedication. The finest furniture makers of 150 years ago would have regarded a good jobsite tablesaw as a miracle of precision and speed.

[Roy Harding]

I won't make a recommendation on brand, but will say this - when I first started I had NO idea of what I wasn't capable of. My first project was a bathroom vanity, built with a no-name brand direct drive "bench top table saw", a Black & Decker 7 1/4" skil saw, and using the edge of a piece of plywood as a straight edge. The vanity was not a work of art, but it was functional, looked OK, and (most important) my wife loved it.

Over the years, I've attended schools (someone earlier mentioned attending community college or adult ed classes - good idea), upgraded my equipment (moved to a contractors saw, and then to my current Felder Sliding combo), and I now make my living doing this.

The equipment upgrades have NOT made me a better woodworker - they've helped to make me a FASTER woodworker. You can accomplish what you envision with a jobsite saw - but it will take you a longer time than if you could afford a cabinet saw or a slider. If I were in your position, I'd look for a decent contractor's saw (used), and spend money on a good fence system, and quality blades. AND, a skil saw and a good straight edge (for initial breakdown of sheets of ply).

Best of luck to you.

[Edward Oleen]

Go with DeWalt. I've had tools from several manufacturers, and always come home to just two companies: Powermatic for the "big" stuff, and DeWalt for the not-so-big stuff.

[scott spencer]

Go with DeWalt. I've had tools from several manufacturers, and always come home to just two companies: Powermatic for the "big" stuff, and DeWalt for the not-so-big stuff.

Is your car yellow? ;) :D

[Tim Streagle]

Here is what I found on classifieds for $300. Oh yeah, it came with a 15 inch Grizzly planer! Right now there is a 12 inch older Rockwell contractor saw with a 52 inch Biesmeyer available for $600.

312118

The deals are out there. Be sure to run the saw if possible and listen/feel for bearing noise and bad vibration. Inspect the arbor for runout. If this sounds like it is not in your realm of expertise or experience buying new may be the best option. But buying used can yield a saw that will last the rest of your woodworking days until a money tree grows in your backyard.

[John Echenrode]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BJhqd%2B3tL._AA160_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Makita-SP6000J1-2-Inch-Plunge-Circular/dp/B00CHN6L74/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429845353&sr=8-1&keywords=makita+track+saw)


Makita SP6000J1 6-1/2-Inch Plunge Circular Saw with Guide Rai

(http://www.amazon.com/Makita-SP6000J1-2-Inch-Plunge-Circular/dp/B00CHN6L74/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429845353&sr=8-1&keywords=makita+track+saw)by Makita


$414.00 (http://www.amazon.com/Makita-SP6000J1-2-Inch-Plunge-Circular/dp/B00CHN6L74/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429845353&sr=8-1&keywords=makita+track+saw)$760.00



Just a little over your $400 budget. But this track saw would allow you to build your kitchen cabinets (the boxes at least). I used mine to help build my kitchen cabinets. It's no table saw...but you can't beat it for super smooth and straight cuts in sheet goods.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I just want to mention learning about kickback via YouTube and reading sure beats learning the hard way. I wasn't aware of some of the risky actions at first. That, and ear protection... Now have tinnitus thanks to a loud drummer and loud machines over time, it sucks. Fingers are obvious, ears and lungs a bit less. Not to be a downer, really I just think it is worth the effort so you can enjoy the finished house.