Bailey planes

[Tom Bussey]

If a person pays attention to the cutting pressure of a plane, it is down and back against the blade. The shaving is up and out. So on a Bailey, if a person just snugs the screws that hold the frog on only tight enough, it will still allow the frog still be moved. The downwart cutting force keeps the frog from lifting and the frog adjusting screw takes the backward force. And the frog design of a Bailey is parelell and not down on an angle like a bedrock. If the screws are just tight enough to allow the frog adjusting screw to turn, the frog can opened and closed without removing the blade or lever cap and the blade does not need to be re-adjusted like a bedrock does. The reason for the popularity of the bedrock flat side style is so the frog can be adjusted without loosening the lever cap and or removing the blade. But the blade does need to be readjusted, but not on a Bailey.


The problem with most people is that if a screw or bolt can be tightened, it wil be tightened to the limit of what the person is capable of. and not what is proper. Usually even torque wrenches are tightened with a jurk and way over done. I find that even the levercap is over tightened on most planes that I pick up. I know I have again touched the sacrid cow, but hopefully one or two will try it.

[Richard Verwoest]

Interesting..........I plan to give it a shot. But will be curious what others have to say.

Richard

[Jim Koepke]

Usually my frogs are adjusted once and left alone.

Are there any folks out there who are changing their frog settings often?

+1 on what Tom said about people over tightening screws and bolts. Most people do not know the physical limits of the materials around them. When I was taking a metallurgy class the tensile testing made me realize I would not be a good student in this class. I received a bit of a reprimand for making something fail at less of a strain than it should have failed. Whenever there is a structural failure in the news it makes me wonder if something failed at less than its "tested yield strength."


The downwart cutting force keeps the frog from lifting and the frog adjusting screw takes the backward force.

Of course this is only for Stanly/Bailey planes of type 10 and later.


Usually even torque wrenches are tightened with a jurk and way over done.

I have seen a few jerks in my day do the "torque wrench jerk" when tightening a fastener. The "we have always done it this way" crowd is difficult if not impossible to retrain.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I
The problem with most people is that if a screw or bolt can be tightened, it wil be tightened to the limit of what the person is capable of. and not what is proper. Usually even torque wrenches are tightened with a jurk and way over done. I find that even the levercap is over tightened on most planes that I pick up. I know I have again touched the sacrid cow, but hopefully one or two will try it.

Are you saying that the people who send you planes do not know how to use them?

My Bailey frog has not been moved since 1981.

[Jim Koepke]

Are you saying that the people who send you planes do not know how to use them?

My Bailey frog has not been moved since 1981.

It seems he is saying, "The problem with most people is that if a screw or bolt can be tightened, it wil be tightened to the limit of what the person is capable of."

That seems a problem of using screwdrivers and wrenches, not a lack of knowing how to use a hand plane.

Though from my personal experience and reading what others post, no one starts out from birth fulling understanding the use of a hand plane.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

If a person pays attention to the cutting pressure of a plane, it is down and back against the blade. The shaving is up and out. So on a Bailey, if a person just snugs the screws that hold the frog on only tight enough, it will still allow the frog still be moved. The downwart cutting force keeps the frog from lifting and the frog adjusting screw takes the backward force. And the frog design of a Bailey is parelell and not down on an angle like a bedrock. If the screws are just tight enough to allow the frog adjusting screw to turn, the frog can opened and closed without removing the blade or lever cap and the blade does not need to be re-adjusted like a bedrock does. The reason for the popularity of the bedrock flat side style is so the frog can be adjusted without loosening the lever cap and or removing the blade. But the blade does need to be readjusted, but not on a Bailey.


The problem with most people is that if a screw or bolt can be tightened, it wil be tightened to the limit of what the person is capable of. and not what is proper. Usually even torque wrenches are tightened with a jurk and way over done. I find that even the levercap is over tightened on most planes that I pick up. I know I have again touched the sacrid cow, but hopefully one or two will try it.

a fair number of the older planes I have had apart have rough enough machining on the frog/body mating surfaces that I have my doubts how well this will work. I like the idea, though. is sorting out those surfaces part of your machining service?

I agree about the typically overtightened lever cap. I instruct setting it as loose as possible without the blade shifting in use, plus a tiny bit.

the cutting force only pulls the blade down when the sharpness is fresh. as the wear bevel increases the vertical force goes neutral, then up. now, we all know that we *should* sharpen before that, but in the middle of a project I generally run the plane until the surface it produces degrades
(smoothing plane) or the force needed to run it increases enough to catch my attention (jack, jointer). this is generally going to be (for me) somewhat beyond the wear bevel/ vertical force transition. it ends up being easier/ less fussy to keep dedicated planes for wide and tight mouth configurations.

I was taught to *ease* the torque wrench into the click.

[Jim Koepke]

I was taught to *ease* the torque wrench into the click.

My torque wrench use was learned on a wrench that had a pointer instead of a clicker.

jtk

[Moses Yoder]

Like Mr Berdel, I can see this working well on a properly tuned plane, not so much if the frog is not mating flat. I will make note of this to try it next time I get into my shop, is looking like 3 years from now. Thank you for the interesting concept.

[Ray Bohn]

Tom, Thanks for another helpful insight.

[ian maybury]

For what it's worth i discovered too that a fairly quick flattening of the sliding surfaces of a plane iron (the sliding face of the iron - Clifton no.5 - and the outer surface of the chip breaker) with waterstones down to my finest grit (not necessarily all over - but enough so that it's not resting on high points/smallish raised areas) and then waxing massively reduces the effort needed at the screw to adjust the blade projection. From very stiff to the point where it could be adjusted in use with a finger, and seemed likely that it might move in use - but no so far problems.

Chances are that the technique would work in most situations where metal surfaces need to slide on each other. The chip breaker is more easily done this way on the Clifton because it's in two sections and the main one is flat, but the one piece breaker probably won't stop it being possible with a little care on a Stanley.

[Tom Bussey]

Most of the reasons that people use to justify buying a bedrock flat side is because you can move the frog without taking off the blade. I think the greatest thing the bedrock design has to offer is there is no side to side movementwith the frog. Stanley Bailey frogs can have a lot of side to side movement in the later models. That is somewhat why the type 11through, I believe, type 15 are much more popular. I am saying how to set up a Bailey so that it can also be moved without readjusting.

On a personal note, I don't think a person should have to justify buying anything, if a bedrock is what you want go for it. They are great planes and have a high resale value.

Answering another comment. Most people including myself set the frog and never move it again. I would go on to say that once I get the blade to cut how I want it to cut, it also is never touched again until it is time to resharpen. I was not surprised to hear some one hadn't touched his frog since 1981. But it will be a point to argue to prove someones point on why something is better. I have read them all.

Notice that I said Bailey in the title. Miller Falls, the ones with the two piece lever caps also fall into this catagory have machined seats and will move very nicely.But a lot of cheaper planes have cast seats, never machined, don't fall in this catagory and the process doesn't work. A lot of planes have machined seats but I prefer the types with the frog adgusting screw. At first glance you know it has machined seats, and if nothing else the frog will set solidly on the body.

When I worked at John Deere i was loaned out to gage repair to help them calibrate a lot of torque wrenches. I found out that the wrenches with the long pointer were to most accurate and it was easy to double the torque with a clicker and a jurk. Am I against the clickers, no, just saying be careful and remember why you are using a torque wrench in the first place.


What I am writing is a different way of looking at or doing something. Some will like it, some won't, and some just plane never thought about it. There is not one size fits all here.

Thanks for considering what I pointed out.

[Tom M King]

In other words, tight enough is tight enough. I solve the problem a different way. If a plane I have isn't set right for a particular wood, I just get another plane. I don't remember ever changing one once it did what I wanted it to. I don't know how many I have, but I do know which one does what, and haven't needed another one in a Long time.

[Hilton Ralphs]

What I am writing is a different way of looking at or doing something. Some will like it, some won't, and some just plane never thought about it.

Nice play on words there Tom!

I only have English speaking Stanley planes so not sure what Type they are but I'll try your suggestion. Thanks for this.

[Joe Tilson]

We were always taught to tighten them really tight. This info may help us with some problems in getting a plane to work better.
Thanks Tom.

[David Utterback]

Thanks Tom. Good information that I can use to re-adjust some planes that have not worked well for me.

[Derek Arita]

Tom, thanks for the info. Being a newbee, this is great info and helps me understand what the heck is going on in my planes. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Tom Bussey]

I find that usually the lever cap is way to tight so it has to be released to adjust the blade but the blade jumps and looses its setting and the list of problems goes on and people get frustrated and don't use a plane. I hear it all the time the new planes are easier to adjust, less back lash in the threads. If the blade with the chip braker is pulled up against the yoke and the levercap is set so the blade can be moved forward, the cutting force is going to push the blade back against the yoke anyway. The blade is more easily adjusted and the backlash doen't have to come into play. Not to bash the high dollar planes, but with kids and all of the other pressures of living, not everone has that kind of moneyto spend.

Screws snuged good and tight I also see all the time. I find the first thing I have to do is clamp them in a vise and put a large adjustable whench onto the screw driver and see if the screws will come loose. If not penatrating oil and lastly heat. Just because you can tighten then way past what is necessary dosen't mean you should.

The trick is how to get the frog and cutting edge of the plane where you want it. And you can't really do that with the screws snuged good and tight. Start withthe frog back a little, I prefer to use a longer bladed screwdriver to get around the handle to be able to move the from easier. The blade also needs to be adjustedin the process. Adjust the blade down until it just shaves thin piece of pine, a 1/4 to 1/2 inch wide, on both sides of the blade a little and then move the frog a little closer to the front of the mouth, and just play with it, advance the blade, and go on untill it realy works for you. You may have to start over a couple of times but so what. If you don't get in a hurry and advance either one to far the backlash doesn't come into play.

Again I hope what I have written has helped someone.

[bridger berdel]

I think any meaningful information helps. Your post is definitely getting the wheels turning for me, so I guess that counts as helping. Thanks, Tom.

[Shawn Pixley]

My torque wrech is still the pointer kind. Until I find It doesn't do what I need it to do, why replace it?

[Shawn Pixley]

I am with Tom and Jim with passion. I find most people want to crank things as much as they can. I get many requests from the neighbors or others to fix something. When attempting to loosen things, I often find that something is over tightened - often by them.

I learned the wisdom of proper tightening early when I had to break free lug nuts and such when the had been overtightened by impact wrenches. I once broke an 18" breaker bar loosening a nut (that is exciting I can tell you - fortunately, The energy went up in the air as I was using my legs as the force).

What I find with older planes is that a high sense of "touch" and sensitivity are key to adjusting the plane. To Jim's point, for the most part for me, when the frog is set, there it stays. But cranking it down doesn't add anything.