Stopped grooves with a Veritas plow plane

[Mike Cherry]

As the title suggests, does anyone have a efficient way of doing this? My first instinct is to chop the last couple inches of the groove so that the plows blade will stay in the cut. This is for ship lapped panels between legs on a bookshelf. Any advice?

[Jim Koepke]

How many do you need to do?

And do you have a Stanley 45?

I submitted an article on this to one of the magazines and the editor didn't think it was of interest to enough of their audience.

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

One trick I've seen is to plow the groove through, then glue in a plug from matching wood for the part you don't want grooved. I've done it, though not for something where appearance mattered.

[Mike Cherry]

Well I got 4 stopped grooves and 4 regular grooves. I do not have a 45 at my disposal.. Never have found a good one.

[Jim Koepke]

Well I got 4 stopped grooves and 4 regular grooves. I do not have a 45 at my disposal.. Never have found a good one.

The Stanley 45 does take a bit of getting used to. It isn't difficult to see how many folks get the impression they are nothing more than a fancy boat anchor.

Not sure if it is possible with the Veritas Plow plane.

It is also something that can be done with a router plane.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

I don't see any other way than what what you said.
There's no easy way out of something like this with hand tools.

Why was a Stanley 45 brought up? What's it going to do your plow plane can't?

[Warren Mickley]

If we copy an old design, there are often things that are awkward with machinery, but straightforward with hand tools. On the other hand it can be awkward to make something by hand that was designed to be made by machinery.

Your design is not one we see in hand work. There is too much effort for too little gain. If you are willing or able to change the design there are possibilities.

[Judson Green]

Jim could you elaborate how to do this with a 45?



How many do you need to do?

And do you have a Stanley 45?

I submitted an article on this to one of the magazines and the editor didn't think it was of interest to enough of their audience.

jtk

[Judson Green]

Very true Warren.


If we copy an old design, there are often things that are awkward with machinery, but straightforward with hand tools. On the other hand it can be awkward to make something by hand that was designed to be made by machinery.

Your design is not one we see in hand work. There is too much effort for too little gain. If you are willing or able to change the design there are possibilities.

[Pat Barry]

As the title suggests, does anyone have a efficient way of doing this? My first instinct is to chop the last couple inches of the groove so that the plows blade will stay in the cut. This is for ship lapped panels between legs on a bookshelf. Any advice?
So its not really a shiplap that you are after. Maybe you can provide a sketch or describe why a normal shiplap won't work

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, shiplap is mating rabbets, not grooves. Maybe you meant tongue and groove? But in any event, for the back of a bookcase, I am having trouble imagining a need for stopping.

[Mark Stutz]

I've done it with a plow plane, once. In the future, I will be heeding Warren's advice.

IIRC, I used a modern Record with the blue handle, since the cutter was closer to the nose than on the 45. I made a shallow mortise on each end with a brace/bit, and cleaned it with with chisels and a router plane. Hogged out as much of the rest as I could with the plow, then finished the other end with chisels and a router plane. Not fast and the result was a little rough, but it worked.

That was really one of my first attempts at hand tool work, and I was simply trying to recreate what I had done with a router in the past. If I have to have a stopped groove in the future, it won't be done with hand tools.

[Mike Cherry]

Warren you are quite perceptive! I am using a design that was originally intended for machines. I am also relatively new to woodworking and still making these " I'll never do that again" decisions at times.

The he design was found here
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42637/free-plan-arts-and-crafts-bookcase
I simply used traditional mortise and tenons and I am actually building a nightstand rather than the bookcase. It is a project for my sons architectural design class. He came up with the dimensions and found these plans.

[Pat Barry]

From what I see those backpanels can be shiplap joints as per normal. They then have a tenon at each end to fit into the grooves of the top and bottom rails and a similar detail on the last two panels to fit into the grooves in the legs. All of this is very compatible with hand tools and non requires a stopped ship lap. Please post pictures of the project as you progress.

[Mike Cherry]

Im sorry Pat, perhaps I was unclear. The shiplapping of the panels is not where I am having the issue. The issue is the groove that the shiplapped panels sit in on the legs. I am at work, but if I need to I can snap a photo later of the issue I am running into. Thanks for looking everyone! I would like to know how I could have done this differently so that I make less work for myself in the future.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I submitted an article on this to one of the magazines and the editor didn't think it was of interest to enough of their audience.



Care to post your article Jim for all of us to learn from?

Please.

[Pedro Reyes]

Warren you are quite perceptive! I am using a design that was originally intended for machines. I am also relatively new to woodworking and still making these " I'll never do that again" decisions at times.

The he design was found here
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42637/free-plan-arts-and-crafts-bookcase
I simply used traditional mortise and tenons and I am actually building a nightstand rather than the bookcase. It is a project for my sons architectural design class. He came up with the dimensions and found these plans.

From what I saw in the plans, the top and bottom back strechers can have their grooves end to end (in fact they are shown like that). Same for the rails that make up the side panels. Which only leaves the legs to deal with.

You could do two mortises, same width as plow plane blade, and as long as the front part of the skate. Then plow from the center out (yes I know one cut will be against the grain). Or you could just plane the groove all the way and plug as indicated.

/p

[Mike Cherry]

I'm with you Pedro the top and bottom stretchers are simple enough. The legs are the issue. I believe the only method I can use is the one you suggest. I could do it with a router plane if I had a 1/4" blade but alas, I do not. Thanks for looking. Anyone have a different technique that could have been used with the same result?

[bridger berdel]

I'm with you Pedro the top and bottom stretchers are simple enough. The legs are the issue. I believe the only method I can use is the one you suggest. I could do it with a router plane if I had a 1/4" blade but alas, I do not. Thanks for looking. Anyone have a different technique that could have been used with the same result?

Lee Valley has the 1/4" router blade for $15.

[Mike Cherry]

Such an evil suggestion what with the free shipping right now. There's no way that I can order only an 15$ bit lol

[bridger berdel]

Care to post your article Jim for all of us to learn from?

Please.


seconded.



and thirded.

[Jim Koepke]

It was actually posted over two years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196104-Today-s-Epiphany-With-the-Stanley-45

There are more details that I should clean up and make a new post if people need a better description. Maybe it should be cleaned up and submitted to a different publisher.

Here is an image showing a bead being cut in the middle of a piece:

311724

Notice that the skates are set above the surface. The cam stop and a modification on the depth stop is being used to support the plane. It is being run against a batten on right hand side of the plane.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

Jim, thanks for your post. I believe this is a genius solution and one that a magazine should definitely publish. That way maybe it won't be lost in time again! Thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, thanks for your post. I believe this is a genius solution and one that a magazine should definitely publish. That way maybe it won't be lost in time again! Thanks!

You are welcome and thanks for the kind words.

On my bench it is easy to set up two pieces to be done in tandem. Saves some time if you can batch process them.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Warren makes a good point in that a stopped groove (or rebate) is probably used mainly in modern times. This would be simply because there are the means to do so easily now (in the form of a powered router). The problem, however, is not with the joint, per se, in other words, that a stopped groove could not be made with hand tools, but rather that it could not be done efficiently in a production or time-orientated situation. A through groove was a more efficient use of time. I would imagine that designs were limited by this method (in the same way that modern mechinery can limit designs). I do not see a problem with this joint being made with hand tools now (or then) if you are willing to go the extra mile.

I have made stopped rebates, one method being with a plough and router plane. Unlike Jim, mine sloped at the start and end as the plough was just used to rough out the waste. It was then completed with a fenced router plane. For short grooves, just mark with a cutting gauge and chisel/router out the waste. For a long groove (as under discussion), I would chop out the waste in the form of mortices the length of the skate to the blade (front and back, for clearance of chips) at either end, and then just plane out the entire length and to depth. In actuality, the only mortice required is at the foot of the stretcher, as the top end can be a through groove since this end will be hidden by the top panel of the case.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Stutz]

I was able to find the pictures I took several years ago from my first hand tool only project, a small tool cabinet. This series is from the door stiles IIRC. I chopped the mortice for the stiles first, then made the stopped groove. I started with the plow plane, then finished up sawing the sides and finished with a chisel. In the last photo you can see why I used the Record rather than the 45.

Of course, I was simply trying to duplicate what I would have done with powered tools. Now I would do a thru groove first, chop the mortice in the groove and use a haunched tenon.

I realize this is not the exact application that the OP needs. For that, an alternative to a stopped groove might be to just use a rabbet on the legs. Unless it is going to be seen from the back, then either the rabbet or thru groove with a piece glued in will never be noticed.

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[Brian Holcombe]

I believe the Chinese (Ming era) did it in a similar fashion to that which Mark illustrates;

http://www.sothebys.com/content/dam/stb/lots/HK0/HK0543/T032HK0543_7BT58_A_Hung_d_combined.jpg

The sides look like they were made so that the stretcher would be mortised first and that would give for for plowing the groove.

I see on a lot of Arts and Crafts and Early american it looks like they use stub feet or a plinth to accommodate this design feature.

[James Waldron]

I'm with you Pedro the top and bottom stretchers are simple enough. The legs are the issue. I believe the only method I can use is the one you suggest. I could do it with a router plane if I had a 1/4" blade but alas, I do not. Thanks for looking. Anyone have a different technique that could have been used with the same result?

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=2531 [nb: English "housing" = American "dado"; The same technique works for English "rebates" or American "rabbits." I can't remember if that gets mention in the video.]

[Greg Berlin]

I think I have a picture of this on a blanket chest I made.^^^ let me see if I can find it.