Gun Engraving: M&P 40C Slide

[Ross Moshinsky]

Unlike many people, we don't engrave guns. I know essentially nothing about guns. I had a SWAT Captain come in who we work with regularly and he brought in a M&P 40C gun slide to engrave. From what I can find it's a stainless steel slide which is coated.

Basic question: Will 60W engrave it? I know a fiber is the way to go on this, but can 60W at something like 100PWR and 10% speed do the job?

[Bert Kemp]

Ross If its coated I would say yes you can remove the coating, I have several guns of my own that are coated and have successfully removed the coating with my 60 watt. I use the same setting I use on anodized Alum. which is 30% pwr 325 sp, don't know how that corresponds to your laser. You can always start light and work your way up . Every gun I have done it to looks a little different and I assume it because they had different types of coating or was a different metal gun. Make sure if you decide to do it that he knows you can't tell him what its going to come out like. It might be white or different shades of grey or who knows.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Yep, enough power. Post results, if you decide to do it.

[Mike Null]

There are several coatings used for guns. Most will engrave with a CO2 but not with much contrast. I use the diamond on some as it's pretty much fail safe.

[Kev Williams]

60 watt will mark it fine, but like Mike says, not much contrast. I've found that sometimes 'less is more', where I get a brighter mark using very low power.

I engrave about 10 guns or various gun parts a week, and only about once a month do I laser them. I tool engrave them...

Lining up the 2 totally different slides for this guy was a trick! ;)

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This kind of work is why I'm considering a fiber...

[Bert Kemp]

If I want real etched engravings I take them to a Pro gun engraver. Jim Downing (thegunengraver) did these for me. I made and engraved the holster and engraved the spider web on the wood handle.:)311637311638311639311640311641Still working on a holster for the spider gun, made one but was not happy with it.:rolleyes:

[Kev Williams]

I love ornamental engraving, but I don't have the artistic ability for it, I'm afraid...

but-- I don't charge anywhere near what you paid for your engraving! ;)

[Gary Hair]

And let's hope that since you are admitting to doing firearm related business that you have an FFL? If not, you might not want to publicly admit that you are making money doing it....

[Bert Kemp]

Gary haven't we beaten that subject to death and think we determined way back that you don't have to have a FFL to engrave guns.. If you read all the laws you will see you don't need an FFL


And let's hope that since you are admitting to doing firearm related business that you have an FFL? If not, you might not want to publicly admit that you are making money doing it....

[Ross Moshinsky]

I spoke to Smith & Wesson. Basically they said, they laser engrave these guns with a fiber.

A regular CO2 should work, but he actually didn't know because he doesn't use a regular CO2 laser. They also said, a mechanical engraver wouldn't work because of the coating. I didn't really understand why mechanical engraving wouldn't work because that's pretty much the "safest" way to engrave anything. I more or less think they know what works for them and maybe not much else.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

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Again, CO2 will work just fine.

[Scott Shepherd]

Again, CO2 will work just fine.

"Selective Enforcement Team"????? That doesn't sound too good ;)

"Hey Guys, there is a robbery taking place at 9th and Main."

"Yeah, we just ate lunch, I don't think we want to go right now, maybe next call...." ;)

[Ross Moshinsky]

Again, CO2 will work just fine.

Thanks for the pic Chris. Do you run that with anodized aluminum settings or are you giving it a lot of power?

Also in regards to the FFL, I do not have the entire gun. I only have the slide which from all the discussions I've read over the years means I definitely do not need a FFL.

[Gary Hair]

Also in regards to the FFL, I do not have the entire gun. I only have the slide which from all the discussions I've read over the years means I definitely do not need a FFL.

That is one of the few true facts posted here about firearms. What you have, according to the ATF, is merely a piece of metal, nothing more.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Thanks for the pic Chris. Do you run that with anodized aluminum settings or are you giving it a lot of power?

Also in regards to the FFL, I do not have the entire gun. I only have the slide which from all the discussions I've read over the years means I definitely do not need a FFL.

Negative on the AA settings. I'll say that 'giving it all she's got' is a no go too. I like to find a nice 50-60s with 60/70 power at 600dpi is my go to; I want to be sure there's enough dwell time to make a nicely defined mark. I'm at 35w though; YMMV.

I have an FFL and I tell folks to send only what they need to for engraving. If I don't need the whole firearm, I don't want it.

[Tim Bateson]

You may need a bit more power. Not enough to go through the anodization, but to bleach all of the way through.

My Test:
1. Mark the anodized piece at your given settings.
2. Wet the marked area

Results:
If you see metal - Too deep.
If the marked area fades while wet - re-appears when dry - too shallow
If the marking stays just about the same - PERFECT.

[Kev Williams]

And let's hope that since you are admitting to doing firearm related business that you have an FFL? If not, you might not want to publicly admit that you are making money doing it....Why? According to our local ATF field office, I'm not breaking any laws, so I don't mind publicly admitting I engrave guns for profit. I guess you missed my post about this issue awhile back...

Last year I called the Salt Lake City ATF field office, and spoke to Nathan. Every gunsmith I engrave for around here knows him. I spoke to him about my owning an engraving shop and that I engrave guns on a regular basis, for gunsmiths, rebuilders and regular people. I explained that people leave AR lowers, AK receivers and other various firearms and/or parts with me to have their trust info and address engraved, and many others leave guns with me for personalization engraving. And that I have gunsmiths and dealers occasionally bring me "logged" weapons for engraving, which I do in the owner's presence, since I DON'T have an FFL gunsmithing permit. I specifically asked if I was breaking any laws by engraving guns without an FFL permit.

He asked ME if gun engraving was the majority of my business, or more of an "occasional" thing. I explained that my gun engraving income was at best 10% of my total engraving sales.

He told me that I'm perfectly within the law, but that it "would be advisable" to get an FFL license should my gun engraving sales become the majority.

Which will never happen...

So, regardless of the opinions of other ATF offices, Nathan gave me his blessing. And everyone I engrave guns for agrees with him. That's good enough for me.

[Gary Hair]

I guess you missed my post about this issue awhile back...

I don't remember it specifically. My local agent said the exact opposite, but as long as Nathan is around then you are probably ok. If, however, Nathan leaves the ATF you could be in trouble if his replacement doesn't see things the same way. I would suggest you get his interpretation of the regulation in writing - that way if he is replaced you at least have a leg to stand on. As I'm typing all of this I'm having a deja-vu moment - either I typed it before or thought it before...

[Scott Shepherd]

He asked ME if gun engraving was the majority of my business, or more of an "occasional" thing. I explained that my gun engraving income was at best 10% of my total engraving sales.

He told me that I'm perfectly within the law, but that it "would be advisable" to get an FFL license should my gun engraving sales become the majority.

Which will never happen...

So, regardless of the opinions of other ATF offices, Nathan gave me his blessing. And everyone I engrave guns for agrees with him. That's good enough for me.

I was told the exact same thing. I believe the ATF agent that would be the one to inspect us, told us that the wording was "Significant part of your business". His indication was that if it wasn't a significant part of the business (which he said was not defined) then they wouldn't worry about it. He also told me that they don't raid your business and take you to jail. He said IF they have an issue with what you're doing, they'll send you a letter telling you to stop. He told me exactly the same thing Nathan told you, that he recommended we get one, but if it wasn't a significant part of our business, then they weren't too concerned about it.

He said that they aren't worried about people like us, they're worried about people bringing 100's of guns in from out the country, illegally, and that's where their constant focus was.

We've applied for the FFL just to cover all bases.

[Mike Audleman]

Thanks for the pic Chris. Do you run that with anodized aluminum settings or are you giving it a lot of power?

Also in regards to the FFL, I do not have the entire gun. I only have the slide which from all the discussions I've read over the years means I definitely do not need a FFL.


I was told the exact same thing. I believe the ATF agent that would be the one to inspect us, told us that the wording was "Significant part of your business". His indication was that if it wasn't a significant part of the business (which he said was not defined) then they wouldn't worry about it. He also told me that they don't raid your business and take you to jail. He said IF they have an issue with what you're doing, they'll send you a letter telling you to stop. He told me exactly the same thing Nathan told you, that he recommended we get one, but if it wasn't a significant part of our business, then they weren't too concerned about it.

He said that they aren't worried about people like us, they're worried about people bringing 100's of guns in from out the country, illegally, and that's where their constant focus was.

We've applied for the FFL just to cover all bases.

Good to cover but also adds the spotlight to you as well.

The ONLY part that you even have to remotely worry about is the serial'd part, usually the receiver. If it doesn't have a SN on it, its not a gun in the eyes of the law and is is not regulated or tracked in any "official" way (they track everything "unofficially" don't ya know). For example, barrels, stocks, triggers, magazines and all other parts of an AR-15 with the exception of the lower receiver housing itself are not a gun in the eyes of the ATF. Only the lower receiver housing is, and just the housing, nothing it contains. So you can take the trigger out and hand the trigger to anyone on the street because its not a gun. Same with the barrel and upper. Hand the lower off and then you are legally transferring a gun.

If the slide has no serial (which only a very few do), its not a gun. No paper work is needed. And no FFL is needed either.

I believe that if the owner of the gun is present while the work is being done on the serial'd part, then no FFL is needed either since the gun never changes ownership/control but I would check and verify that. I base this on, for example, if you have a gun and take a friend to the range to shoot it, as long as you are present, its legal and no transfer takes place. Same applies to silencers and full auto class 3. You can let them use it in your presence but can't leave with it. If, on the other hand, you give it to them to take to the range and don't go yourself, then a transfer happened and could need an FFL especially if it were a business transaction.

[Tim Bateson]

Disclaimer: This is "MY" opinion based in "MY" reading of the regulations. Others will & Do disagree, I'm fine with that, but this is what I personally believe.

I mostly agree with your statement, except... A privately owned gun/part/retriever etc that contains a serial # can be lent to anyone without tracking (FFL) - owner taking full responsibility. The same is not true with a gun dealer's serialized guns. For example a neighbor/relative/customer (none are from a gun dealers stock) leaves me a serialized receiver over-night. I do not require an FFL to be in possession of it. Even a gun dealer's personally owned weapon would be OK too.


...I believe that if the owner of the gun is present while the work is being done on the serial'd part, then no FFL is needed either since the gun never changes ownership/control but I would check and verify that. I base this on, for example, if you have a gun and take a friend to the range to shoot it, as long as you are present, its legal and no transfer takes place. Same applies to silencers and full auto class 3. You can let them use it in your presence but can't leave with it. If, on the other hand, you give it to them to take to the range and don't go yourself, then a transfer happened and could need an FFL especially if it were a business transaction.