Coopered Doors

[Mike Henderson]

I had to make some coopered doors for a project I'm working on. I found that making coopered doors was more difficult than I expected, especially in getting the radius exactly as I wanted.

To figure what angle to cut the staves at, I made a full size drawing and measured the angle from the drawing. Then I did a test door to see how that angle would come out. It turned out that the door was too curved at that angle so I had to cut everything apart and try a smaller angle.

When I was satisfied with the test door, I made the actual doors and the curvature came out pretty well - a slight bit more curved than I wanted but usable.

The doors will be veneered and the project is being made from genuine mahogany. To save some mahogany, I used poplar in the center. I put a 10mm domino in the end of the poplar and attached a piece of mahogany on each end.

Fairing the outside was no problem but getting the inside fair was a problem. I coved the staves a bit to make the fairing easier. I tried a compass plane (didn't work), curved scrapers (waaay too slow), but finally just put some very coarse sandpaper in my ROS and used that. Any suggestions for next time?

The radius of the doors is 16 inches. They will be mounted side-by-side. I thought about doing one design that would span the two doors but getting that pressed would be a challenge. I think I'll go with two designs, each centered on a door.

Right now, the doors are too large, both too wide and too long. I'll trim and fit them soon. Still a lot to do on the project.

Mike

311490 311491 311489

[Andrew Hughes]

I Tryd to cooper some walnut for treasure chest box once and gave up,It is difficult, your brave guy adding the popler in with the mahogany.Thats some nice looking Honduras so I understand your reason.
looks like your off to a good start. Are you entering anything in the fair this year?

[John TenEyck]

Mike, why didn't you just laminate the doors from bending plywood in the vacuum bag?

[Peter Quinn]

Looks great Mike. I've never done coopered curved doors, seems like a hard way to make a stable radius door. I did do a giant cove molding once (like 27" of radius giant) that was glued up of 4 curved segments, we fared them with a foam block fixed to a straight line sander, then did the final smoothing with a soft pad on a ROS. It I'd be curious to know how stable they are long term? Its still wood, and its still moving. My fear is any movement in the doors can change the fit of the doors in the opening, make them head the wrong direction. Are you cross banding the veneers? I've always done bent lamination over a form for radius doors, bit of work in the form but very stable and dead smooth out of the press. Looks like a cool project.

[Bud Zeien]

If you're going to veneer it you should do formed laminations, you can even use 1/8" hardboard from home depot. It'll be a much better surface for the veneer.
If you insist on coopering the doors, my best results came by making a pendulum for a router set at the desired radius above the work piece. I made an open faced box and ran a pipe through the ends that the pendulum hung from. You just swing the router back and forth and move it to the side as you go. Then it's easy cleanup from there. You can do the same thing with the outside radius by making a saddle for the door that can swing over a router that you move side to side.
311500311501

[Jon Nuckles]

I've done some small coopered doors and a queen sized headboard. To smooth the inner curve, I made a Krenov style plane using a Hock blade with a big camber. I just ground the blade to the profile I needed, then planed the sole to match it. Pretty easy to make and works really well. It was still a workout to do the headboard, though.

[Jamie Buxton]

To fair the inside curve, I use a 4" right-angle grinder with sandpaper discs. The cute thing about this method is that you can get almost any radius of curvature depending on how you hold the sander. If you hold the sanding disc down flat to the work, you produce a very large radius. If you hold the sanding disc at right angles to the work, you product a 2" radius. If you hold the sander at angles in between, you produce radii that are in between. It turns out to be pretty easy to control. I've even done coopered panels which have an oval shape -- that is, the radius is constantly changing as you run your hand across the panel.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, why didn't you just laminate the doors from bending plywood in the vacuum bag?
I thought about that. Probably would have been easier.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

If you're going to veneer it you should do formed laminations, you can even use 1/8" hardboard from home depot. It'll be a much better surface for the veneer.
If you insist on coopering the doors, my best results came by making a pendulum for a router set at the desired radius above the work piece. I made an open faced box and ran a pipe through the ends that the pendulum hung from. You just swing the router back and forth and move it to the side as you go. Then it's easy cleanup from there. You can do the same thing with the outside radius by making a saddle for the door that can swing over a router that you move side to side.
311500311501
I'll have to think about how I'd do a pendulum for a 16 inch radius for the inside. The outside is really not a problem. Hand tools and some sanding took care of that quickly.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I Tryd to cooper some walnut for treasure chest box once and gave up,It is difficult, your brave guy adding the popler in with the mahogany.Thats some nice looking Honduras so I understand your reason.
looks like your off to a good start. Are you entering anything in the fair this year?
Thanks for your kind words, Andrew. Yes, I'm entering a marquetry party stand and three veneered trays. One of the trays is kind of cute. The veneer came out looking like there are three dog faces in the design - so I call it the "Three Dog Tray." Can you see the dog faces in the tray?

Mike

311506

[Mike Henderson]

I'm making slow progress on the corner table. Here's a picture of where I am now. I've veneered the inside of the doors - the burl is myrtle, with black stringing and figured maple as the banding.

The shelf is adjustable and is in the lowest position. I did dovetails to attach the bottom and the top pieces to the sides. Doing dovetails on a corner table is a bit difficult because you're fitting the dovetails to two sides at one time - everything has to be be very accurate. Also, the wood runs from side to side so the dovetails are not totally end grain, but cut into the grain at a 45 degree angle.

The pieces on the top are used to stop the doors, to hold the top of the sides in the proper position, and to attach the top. Screws will go from under the pieces dovetailed into the sides into the top to hold it in place.

I still have to veneer the outside of the doors, and make the top and base. The top will have some veneer design on it but I haven't decided what yet.

So far, I'm pleased with the way it's coming out. I like the color of the myrtle and the banding against the mahogany. The sides are mostly poplar and are veneered with mahogany veneer on both sides, as is the bottom, the shelf, and the front top.

Mike

312377

[Shawn Pixley]

I found when coopering, fairing the inside is a huge pain. I plan to make a wooden plane for the purpose unless I can find one.

[Shawn Pixley]

Mike,

Looking good. I wish I had your veneering skills.

[mike mcilroy]

so I call it the "Three Dog Tray." Can you see the dog faces in the tray?


I think I see them on the road to Shambala

[Mike Henderson]

I found when coopering, fairing the inside is a huge pain. I plan to make a wooden plane for the purpose unless I can find one.
Yeah, it is difficult. I thought I had the inside faired pretty well, but after I put the veneer on and one coat of finish, I could see irregularities in the fairing. It's not obvious and it's inside the doors so I don't think it will detract from the project.

I tried a compass plane and it didn't work well.

Mike

[Regarding veneering, it's all a matter of getting some instruction and then experience (plus the vacuum pressing equipment). The tools are minimal. Like most things, you get better with each project, as long as you push yourself to do more difficult projects.]

[Mike Cutler]

Mike

Thank you for this thread.
I have two coopered doors to make for a bath vanity I started awhile back.
I've thought of doing it a few ways. Using bending ply, which I probably will do. Using a bead and flute bit set, or cutting the angles like you did. I haven't decided which yet.
The other part I haven't decided on is whether or not the doors will be one flat plane, or "raised panel".
My question is how do you approach the rails and stiles?

[Mike Henderson]

Mike

Thank you for this thread.
I have two coopered doors to make for a bath vanity I started awhile back.
I've thought of doing it a few ways. Using bending ply, which I probably will do. Using a bead and flute bit set, or cutting the angles like you did. I haven't decided which yet.
The other part I haven't decided on is whether or not the doors will be one flat plane, or "raised panel".
My question is how do you approach the rails and stiles?

I've never done a curved door in rail and stile. I'm just thinking about it now so this is half baked, but I might make the rails as laminate bent pieces and shape the stiles to match the curve with a hand plane. Then for the panel, I'd probably have to make it flat (not really raised) and use something like bending ply.

I just don't have any good idea how to make a curved raised panel, except maybe coopering it. But raising a curved panel is a mystery to me. Seems it would be really difficult passing the curved part over a raised panel bit. I suppose it could be done, however - with a lot of small bites.

Let us know what you decide to do. It's something I never thought of.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I'm making progress on the coopered doors. It's a more difficult project than I first expected but it seems to be coming out all right. All I've done so far is the main body of the cabinet. I still have to do the top and base. Right now, I don't have a clue what I'm going to do for the top. I know it will be veneer but I don't know what design yet. I'll come up with something.

Here's a view of the front of the cabinet with the doors closed.
312935

And here's a view from the front with the doors open.
312934

A slightly different view from the front, looking down on the unit.
312937

And a closeup of one of the exterior panels. I got a lot of reflection in this pix.

312936

It's been a challenging project - getting the doors to line up and fit tightly, doing all the veneer and getting it to line up (I missed the alignment just a small amount - you can see it in the pictures). 90% of the work on the front veneer was in getting those curved banding pieces in each corner.

I don't know whether I'll do the top or base next. The base will require that I laminate bend for the front curve so that will be a challenge to get it to match the curve on the cabinet exactly.

Mike

[Peter Quinn]

Mike

Thank you for this thread.
I have two coopered doors to make for a bath vanity I started awhile back.
I've thought of doing it a few ways. Using bending ply, which I probably will do. Using a bead and flute bit set, or cutting the angles like you did. I haven't decided which yet.
The other part I haven't decided on is whether or not the doors will be one flat plane, or "raised panel".
My question is how do you approach the rails and stiles?

I had a few curved projects, one vanity and 9 entryways last summer, did a lot of looking and experimenting on the subject. Some people keep the stiles flat, and that can work well as long as you adjust the angle of the edge that meets the rails so the stiles face remains tangent to the curve of the door in plan. I devised a ratio by using the circumference formula, basically solving for "degrees of radius per inch of travel" and then created this bevel angle on the stiles edge before sticking it. You also have to cock the stile up off the table so the stiles edge is in plane with the fence of the router or shaper. The other approach is to actually cooper the stiles, and that still requires adjusting the "spring angle" of the stile/rail meeting, but also involves truly making curved stiles with a pendulum type jig such as might be used for guitar necks, takes two jigs, one for the concave, one for the convex. Or you get a molder and two sets of knives....which makes sense if you are doing LOTS of the same door?

For the raised panel some use a vertical cutter, and that approach seems simpler to me, you just have to support the panel through its travel, the curves on tight cabinet doors will almost support them selves, you just need a curved fence to keep them from tipping, the other two edges get run as straights essentially. Or you can make a carriage to support the panel complete through its radius and use a horizontal cutter from below.

There is an excellent photo essay over on lumberjocks done by a pro cabinet maker that does a lot of curved cope and stick panels, I'm happy to send you a link in a pm if you want it but can't post that here due to TOS, here is another less picture heavy demo of a similar subject, different approaches to the inherent problems from each person.


http://www.miterclamp.com/radius/pages/FabricationSection.htm

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, they could have been done some other way, but there is gravity to doing it an old way and avoiding someone later
chipping the veneer and discovering it's "just plywood". I do have one different criticism,a small one. To me the design
would be a little stronger without the inside of the doors veneered similar to,but weaker than the beautiful and interesting
front. Having both makes it impossible for me to see the front with the same solidity and specialness of just a patterned
face. ..but if give it to me ,I will sure try to adjust !

[Mike Henderson]

I've had other obligations for the past month or so and am just getting back to this project. I built the base for it.
316156

One thing I discovered about doing this corner cabinet - with the curved front - is that it has a number of complex pieces. And the base was a puzzle for me for a while. One was how to do the curved front so that it matches the curve of the doors - accurately. I thought about doing laminate bending for that section but it's really difficult to get a laminate bent part to come out of the press with exactly the right curve. Seems there's always some springback.

So I laid up some wood to create a thick section, as thick as the curve comes out. Then I sat the cabinet on top of that and traced the curve. I wanted it to protrude enough that I could put a profile on the base so I had to move the curve out that much. Then I cut the curve on the bandsaw and sanded it smooth.

Next, I veneered the front and cut the profile. All that was pretty straightforward. The next step was to figure out the angles for the cuts of the base pieces so that they'd miter together. The back was easy. The two sides meet at 90 degrees so the cut is 45. But what do I do where the sides meet the curved front? And what does an angle mean when you have a curved reference surface?

I finally solved the problem and I want to explain it here. See the diagram.
316155

If you have a square box, the cuts on each side piece will be 45 degrees - and here's the important thing - the cuts will line up across the box.

I realized that what I was doing was replacing two sides with the curved front piece. So the joints will line up. The cut on the side pieces is 45 degrees. But the curved piece needs a flat base across the back of the curve. And a flat back can be achieved on the jointer.

And that's how the base went together. I had to measure very accurately in order to get the same reveal all around so it took me quite a while - measuring, trimming, and then trial fitting of the base (held together with a strap clamp) to check the reveal all around. But at least I could get it done.

Here's a view into the bottom. Things aren't as neat here as in the visible parts of the project.
316157

Next, I'l do the top. I received the veneer for what I want to do - now I just have to do it.

Mike

[Andrew Hughes]

Hi Mike,Looking good.Making the base out of a solid piece was a good choice.Since you didn't have a form you could use from the doors.I bet the top is going to be nice.hope it's not too hot for out in the shop.Next week they are calling for monsoon moisture.Not sure if that affects you too much.I won't be doing any resawing.Thanks for sharing your work. Andrew

[Jeff Ramsey]

Mike, have you looked at any of Krenov's books?

http://www.amazon.com/Fine-Art-Cabinetmaking-James-Krenov/dp/0442245556/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435150943&sr=1-1&keywords=James+Krenov+The+Fine+Art+of+Cabinetmakin g

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, have you looked at any of Krenov's books?

http://www.amazon.com/Fine-Art-Cabinetmaking-James-Krenov/dp/0442245556/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435150943&sr=1-1&keywords=James+Krenov+The+Fine+Art+of+Cabinetmakin g
Yes, I did read a couple of his books. Why do you ask?

Mike

[Paul Murphy]

I'll have to think about how I'd do a pendulum for a 16 inch radius for the inside. The outside is really not a problem. Hand tools and some sanding took care of that quickly.

Mike

Beautiful work Mike. For an inside router pendulum of 16" radius [shown in black] try a bit such as a 3/8" Radius Round Nose Bit mounted in a router [motor only]. The shop-built base could have the router axis angle offset to provide clearance from the pivot axle for an even smaller radius [shown in blue @8"].316188
316195

[Larry Edgerton]

Very nice Mike, you have the patience of a god!

Alternative method:

When I had my old Porter jointer I got a job with a ton of curved doors, had to be solid wood. I ground a set of knives for the Porter with the curves, inside and outside and a sled to run them through on. You can do it with a normal jointer as well because the small segment of a curve has little projection. The tables on the Porter slid back for that purpose, but on many jointers it is still a possibility by replacing the aluminum inserts at the head. I just looked at my MiniMax and I could pull it off on that one as well.

Anyway.... I then made a sled with the curve the outside radius of the finished door for the tablesaw that held two pieces at a time, centered on the blade. I rigged up toggle clamps to hold them in place and using a hollow ground plane blade shaved both curve sections at on time, numbered both halves, rinse and repeat till a door was done. This way the miters were perfect for the curve I wanted to end up with without any room for error.

Of course thats a lot of setup for two doors, but there may be an idea in there you can use.

Larry

[Mike Henderson]

Well, I finally got around to making the top for this cabinet. All it has on it right now is some wax free shellac. I'll have to put lacquer on it later - maybe in a few days. Here's a view looking down on it. I used mahogany for the substrate and it's lighter right now than the veneer. But in a short while it will darken and color match the veneer.

318144

It consists of four pieces of crotch walnut with dyed white stringing, and a border of figured mahogany. The crotch walnut was fairly expensive so cutting it was somewhat scary.

And here's a view of the cabinet with the top set on it. The picture is not very good.

318145

I next have to figure out how to keep the doors closed - I'd like to use magnets in some way - and in what handles to put on it. I'll probably go with some very unobtrusive handles.

But it's getting close. And a good thing, too. My wife was getting sick of the cabinet in the house without any top (I didn't want to leave it in the shop because I'd ding it).

Mike

[Laying the veneer for the top was a fairly complex veneer job. Although I had a number of other projects that kept me from working on this project, I think maybe I was also putting it off because of how difficult a project it was and I was afraid I'd screw it up. While it has a few small "defects", overall I'm pleased with the way it came out.]

[Walter Plummer]

Beautiful sir. Truly impressive work. Thanks for sharing.

[Andrew Hughes]

I like it.The wood and proportions are very pleasing to my eyes.Now in going to try my hand at a corner cabinet.Always up for a new challage.Thanks for sharing with us Mike.

[mreza Salav]

Very nice work, thanks for sharing.

[Mike Henderson]

I like it.The wood and proportions are very pleasing to my eyes.Now in going to try my hand at a corner cabinet.Always up for a new challenge. Thanks for sharing with us Mike.
One thing I found, Andrew, is that when you introduce curves in the work, the project gets (much) more complex. Even clamping for glue up is more challenging - the clamps don't pull in the right direction.

But curved work is very rewarding, and does break the project away from the rectangular form. I'd love to see your project when you get going on it.

Mike

[Scott DelPorte]

Beautiful work, thanks for sharing

[Phil Thien]

Laying the veneer for the top was a fairly complex veneer job...

That cabinet is a showpiece.

"Fairly complex" has to be today's SMC understatement. That would be fairly complex with a CNC router as your disposal. By hand I think it is somewhere north of "fairly complex."

While I'm not comparing my stupid little fake Krenov (with flat door) project to yours, I did do a couple things I liked. One was hiding magnets in the door stop, which runs the full width of the cabinet. So a flat-head screw in the door (covered by felt), and a neo magnet in the stop, really works quite well.

[Scott T Smith]

Gorgeous work Mike! Thanks for sharing.

[Mike Henderson]

I've shown pictures of the corner cabinet "almost finished" but here are a few of it actually finished.

Here's a view of the front of the cabinet, in it's place in our house, with a lamp on top of it. I put two small black pulls towards the top. It's difficult to choose a pull that will not detract from the veneer design and yet be big enough to function well. This is not a cabinet that people will be going into often so I went fairly small with the handles.

318869

And here's a view of the top, with finish on it (and without the lamp).

318868

And finally, a view into the interior showing the veneer work on the inside of the doors. The shelf is adjustable in height, or removable.

318870

I'm sure my wife has some ideas for my next project, but she hasn't told me yet:)

And just a few details about the wood. The primary wood is mahogany. The veneer on the exterior of the doors is walnut burl in a four way match, with banding of fiddle back maple and black stringing. The hardest part of those panels was the curved corner pieces. The border is mahogany.

On the interior of the doors, the field veneer is myrtle burl, with banding of fiddle back maple and black stringing. The border is mahogany.

The top is four pieces of crotch walnut, laid in a radial match, with white stringing around each piece. The border is mahogany. Cutting the curved parts of the walnut, and putting in the banding, was the most difficult part of this panel. The difficulty of the cutting was to make sure that the curve cut of one piece lined up with the curve cut of the next piece - on both sides for the interior two pieces.

Mike

[Trevor Howard]

I admire your talent Mike, the cabinet is beyond words to me. I also appreciate your posting and tutorials on the projects you do.
Thanks

[Jared Sankovich]

I'll have to think about how I'd do a pendulum for a 16 inch radius for the inside. The outside is really not a problem. Hand tools and some sanding took care of that quickly.

Mike

I just found these vids the other day, he has a interesting setup for gluing and shaping the doors. It seems similar to Bud's "open box" description.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI7dCpgDAXI

[Jared Sankovich]

part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYcQhEnZWUM

[Mike Henderson]

Wow, that is major jig making. Way too much for making a couple of doors. And even if you did it, the next time you wanted a door with a different curvature, you'd have some major modifications to make to the jig.

Storing that jig would also be a problem for me. Unless you were going to make a LOT of doors with the same curvature, that jig doesn't make a lot of sense.

But I have to give that guy credit for working out the details of that jig. It's very inventive.

Mike

[richard poitras]

Great build Mike it looks really nice.

For those of you that are interested in learning more about veneering and building things like this I would recommend you check out Mike’s home page as he shows some of his cool projects and tutorials.